Yeah, OK, tell me this isn't turning into Vietnam

[WilliamPitt]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/11/AR2005051101737.html

Demise of a Hard-Fighting Squad
Marines Who Survived Ambush Are Killed, Wounded in Blast

By Ellen Knickmeyer
Washington Post Foreign Service
Thursday, May 12, 2005; Page A01

HABAN, Iraq, May 11 -- The explosion enveloped the armored vehicle in flames, sending orange balls of fire bubbling above the trees along the Euphrates River near the Syrian border.

Marines in surrounding vehicles threw open their hatches and took off running across the plowed fields, toward the already blackening metal of the destroyed vehicle. Shouting, they pulled to safety those they could, as the flames ignited the bullets, mortar rounds, flares and grenades inside, rocketing them into the sky and across pastures.

Gunnery Sgt. Chuck Hurley emerged from the smoke and turmoil around the vehicle, circling toward the spot where helicopters would later land to pick up casualties. As he passed one group of Marines, he uttered one sentence: "That was the same squad."

Among the four Marines killed and 10 wounded when an explosive device erupted under their Amtrac on Wednesday were the last battle-ready members of a squad that four days earlier had battled foreign fighters holed up in a house in the town of Ubaydi. In that fight, two squad members were killed and five were wounded.

In 96 hours of fighting and ambushes in far western Iraq, the squad had ceased to be.

Every member of the squad -- one of three that make up the 1st Platoon of Lima Company, 3rd Battalion, 25th Regiment -- had been killed or wounded, Marines here said. All told, the 1st Platoon -- which Hurley commands -- had sustained 60 percent casualties, demolishing it as a fighting force.

"They used to call it Lucky Lima," said Maj. Steve Lawson, commander of the company. "That turned around and bit us."

Wednesday was the fourth day of fighting in far western Iraq, as the U.S. military continued an assault that has sent more than 1,000 Marines down the ungoverned north bank of the Euphrates River in search of foreign fighters crossing the border from Syria. Of seven Marines killed so far in the operation, six came come from Lima Company's 1st Platoon.

Lima Company drew Marine reservists from across Ohio into the conflict in Iraq. Some were still too young to be bothered much by shaving, or even stubble.

...more...

[The_Casual_Observer]

1. Ok, It isn't turning into Vietnam.

It's worse.

[Fire Walk With Me]

3. Hammer home the word Vietnam, or even replace "Iraq" with it

Hammer hammer hammer. The message is clear, and the association is inarguable.

[mopinko]

21. .

[MichiganVote]

36. Absolutely agreed.

[bush_is_wacko]

39. I second that.... It's FAR worse than Vietnam

and if it isn't stopped soon it WILL lead to ful scale war around the world. I have talked to way too many people lately both foreign and American that see that as the next step. We have awakened a giant and I'm not sure we can ever appeaxe it back to sleep. The entire world is pulling itself in several different directions!

[warrens]

2. Look, pal, this is a freakin' CAKEWALK

a piece of cake. A gimme. Why do you hate Merka so much?

[deutsey]

4. Gosh, those insurgents are so desperate.

:eyes:

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

5. Recommended

The shit is coming down

[stellanoir]

6. I've posted this before. . .

Yes there are obvious similarities but what strikes me even more profoundly is the singular way in which they are completely dissimilar.

Vietnam is comprised primarily of Buddhists. Ahhh that would be one of the most forgiving of all the major faiths.

Iraq is teaming with Jihadists who, shall we say are perhaps one of the more vengeful of all fundamentalists. I'm not talking about more secular Muslims either.

This will cost us for at least two generations if not more.

[kiki]

9. To be honest I'm not sure Iraq is full of 'Jihadists'...

...according to one report posted on DU a while ago, it's more full of ordinary Iraqi people who can be paid a couple of bucks a day to take up an RPG, as there is no other work in their decimated country.

Oh, and don't forget the CIA guys pretending to be Jihadists.

[stellanoir]

15. yeah perhaps I phrased too strongly

I was over reacting to a report I heard on NPR yesterday that suggested (unverified) neighboring countries who wanted to see us fail lest their governments be scrutinized, sending in death row inmates to be suicide bombers in Iraq and offerring their families a lot of dough to do so. i was also reacting to an idiotic caller on Sam Seder (Springer) this morning about how our mission over there was "a mission of compassion" and the Iraqi's were uncivilized. Sheesh the cradle of civilization itself, wherein I hear there were mor PHD's per capita than we have here.

I read quite a few Iraqi bloggers regularly. I know they are regular folks who are hardly uneducated.

It's the Jihadists that worry me though.

And I agree we've totally trashed the possibility of them making decent livings. Thanks to all the mercenaries and all.

Such a mess.

[soleft]

7. too young to be bothered much by shaving

crushing, just crushing

[LynnTheDem]

8. More US soldiers are dead in Iraq than died the first 6 years of 'Nam...

this is WORSE than 'Nam, so far.

We're only starting Year 3; 'Nam went for over a decade.

As Col. Hack said;

"Should the president decide to stay the war course, hopefully at least a few of our serving top-uniformed leaders - those who are now covertly leaking that war with Iraq will be an unparalleled disaster -will do what many Vietnam-era generals wish they would have done: stand tall and publicly tell the America people the truth about another bad war that could well lead to another died-in-vain black wall. Or even worse."

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29786

[KansDem]

10. Lest we forget...

May 10-20, 1969 (36 years ago this week...)

Hamburger Hill

US and South Vietnamese troops fight for Ap Bia Mountain. The ten-daybattle is one of the fiercest of the war. After 56 Americans are killed and 420 are wounded, the troops capture the hill and killed 597 Vietnamese. The hill is recorded in history as Hamburger Hill, and the actions thereare widely criticized in the US. The battle is one of the last major actions of its type in the war.

see also:
HAMBURGER HILL

http://www.historyinfilm.com/hamhill/real.htm

[Jara sang]

26. Didn't they abandon Hamburger Hill the next day and the Vietnamese

came back and occupied it. I don't know if it was HH but there are several stories like that in America's military history.

[KansDem]

30. Sounds familiar...

I remember attending a lecture given by a VietNam Vet in the late 1960s. I was in my mid-teens ant the vet had just returned from a tour of duty in VietNam. I remember him saying the US would win the war if we just didn't give up ground after we "had won it" (this comment drew a round of applause from the audience). He specifically mentioned the scenario of taking a hill (and casualties) then being ordered to pull back (I don't think he was referring specifically to HH). He lamented that this gave the VC an opportunity to retake the hill, thereby returning conditions to what they were prior to the battle. :shrug:

[Nordmadr]

27. "...stop, tell me what's that sound, everybody knows what's

going down..."

Olaf

[Blue_In_AK]

11. My one and only bumper sticker?

"How do you say Vietnam in Arabic?"

[VelmaD]

12. I can't and I'm so sorry

All I can think is that it would be terrible but important to see what the news was saying this far into Vietnam. I have a sad and scary feeling that it looked a lot like the report you just quoted. *sigh*

[bullimiami]

13. another day same bs

foreign fighters, jihadists, insurgents, al qaida.....


guerillas, weakening force, last gasp, turning the corner, vietnamization, iraqi national guard.....


on and on. the liars feed the fodder to the cannon.

[Redstone]

14. Actually, it may be somewhat more like Algeria. But for a US audience,

you're better off sticking with the Vietnam comparison, which is a damn good one.

Every week, according to the government, we had them on the run, killed a lot more of them than they killed of us, yacketa yacketa yacketa...nothing changes, does it?

Excpet this time, we don't SEE the bodies coming back, and we don't SEE our people dying on TV news.

Redstone

[yellowcanine]

16. Did someone say Vietnam? Then it's time for this song...

Well, come on all of you, big strong men,
Uncle Sam needs your help again.
George Bush has got us seriously whacked
Way down yonder in Eye-rack
So put down your books and pick up a gun,
Gonna have a whole lotta fun.

Chorus:
And it's one, two, three,
What are we fighting for?
Don't ask me, cut me some slack,
Next stop is Eye-rack;
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain't no time to wonder why,
Whoopee! we're all gonna die.

Yeah, come on Wall Street, don't be slow,
This is Dick Chaney's Halliburton show
There's plenty good money to be made
Supplying the Army with the tools of its trade,
Just hope and pray that if they drop the bomb,
They drop it on the Eye-racki scum.
(Chorus)
Well, come on generals, let's move fast;
Your big chance has come at last.
Now you go out and get those rag heads
'Cause the only good Sunni is the one that's dead
And you know that peace can only be won
When we've blown 'em all to kingdom come.
(Chorus)
Come on mothers don't hold back,
Pack your boys off to Eye-rack.
Come on fathers, and don't hesitate
To send your sons off before it's too late.
You can be the first ones in your block
To have your boy come home in a box.
(Chorus x 2)

Adapted from and apologies to:
I-Feel-Like-I'm-Fixin'-To-Die-Rag
Recorded at Chris Strachwitz' House, Berkeley, September 1965
Producer: Ed Denson
Engineer: Chris Strachwitz
Joe McDonald: vocals, acoustic guitar, harmonica
Barry Melton: vocals, electric guitar
Carl Shrager: washboard, kazoo
Bill Steele: washtub bass
Mike Beardsleee: vocal

[Sparkman]

22. Country Joe & the Fish...BUT Dillan's "Universal Soldier" should encore.

[SodoffBush]

17. This reminds me of Ia Drang on a smaller scale

Bush will get us there yet.

[WilliamPitt]

18. .

[Moderator]

19. WilliamPitt

Per DU copyright rules
please post only four
paragraphs from the
copyrighted news source.


Thank you.


DU Moderator

[Zorbuddha]

20. Vietraq

It's past time we called it that.

[lonestarnot]

23. Will never be a Nam because they don't have dual purpose pot bellied

pigs under the floors as sewage cleanup and lunch.

[bunny planet]

24. I won't tell you that because it is.

[Festivito]

25. Viraqinam.

Freakin' Viet-Iraq-Iran-nam

[Cleita]

28. Yep, no one needed a crystal ball to predict this.

In the meantime the Commander-In-Chief is enjoying his extended vacation, paid for by the taxpayers, bicycle riding.

[Walt Starr]

29. Actually, this could be a dramatic shift in strategy by the insurgents

Notice that the targeted unit was a unit of reservists. The insurgents probably know that reservists and National Guard units are local in nature as opposed to active units which pool resources on a national level.

If an entire squad or even an entire platoon of active soldiers or Marines are killed, the effect is spread across a broad spectrum of the nation.

However, a squad of reservists or National Guard could be devestating to a town or small area, and a platoon would be incredibly devestating, potentially wiping out the entire contingency from a small town.

Note too, this unit is from Ohio, a contentious state that went red.

This bears observation because if a pattern of targeted units of reservists and National Guard from contentious states in the past election develops, we'll be looking at an entirely new ball game in the Iraqi Theater of Operations.

[Lowell]

31. Vietnam on steroids

It took several years in Vietnam before we ever reached the number of dead in Iraq after only two years. But then when I left Vietnam, early 1969, the casualty figures were nearly 500 a week. Iraq could easily turn into another meat grinder for American troops. Especially if neighboring jihadists rally to the rescue.

Iraq is one of the few secular nations in the area. This could change overnight. Then the rest of the Muslim world would feel free to rush to the aid of their fellow islamist. If we continue to disrespect their Koran by flushing it down toilets in Gitmo you can bet we are going to be in deep kimchi all over the Muslim world.

Now that the Army is reviving their shake n bake OCS program we will be seeing more casualties due to poorly trained Officers. They are bringing back the 90 day wonders of days of yore. This can only bode ill for the inexperienced officers and the enlisted men tasked to follow them. What we need in Iraq is experienced military, not shavetails. A draft will undoubtedly follow.

[11 Bravo]

33. Welcome home, bro' ...

and welcome to DU.

[Lowell]

34. Thanks for the welcome home

I was an 11 bravo, too. It makes it much easier to empathize with the grunts in Iraq today. And to have a real idea of what they are going through. Lets bring em all home.

[Pinboy]

35. Welcome Home, brother, and welcome to DU

I'm not so concerned about OCS. During Vietnam, OCS was approx 6 months, and the training was pretty good. Company grade officers recently returned from VN gave most of the training, which incorporated "lessons learned" info that was coming back directly from field units in combat.

In my experience in VN, most OCS officers were pretty good, far better than those who came from ROTC (who went through a "basic" course as short as 2 months, and much less intense than OCS). I may be biased, as I went through infantry OCS at Benning. But I also will never forget having to go in with my platoon to carry out the casualties after a ROTC LT screwed up one too many times, getting a lot of his men hurt.

[Goldmund]

32. I think it's worse.

Vietnam happened in a geopolitical environment that made the conflict isolated to southeast Asia. Cold War is mostly what I mean -- that is what drove the conflict, and by the time the war started, its context was already well defined. The major powers' involvement was also well defined, and everybody's interests were clear.

This motherfucker is happening in a global context that I think we don't know yet. The context is being defined at the same time that the conflict is developing. So we don't (yet) have casualty rates that we did then, and there is no draft (yet); but in the geopolitical sense, I think this is much more dangerous.

[geniph]

37. You can't spell QUAGMIRE without I-R-A-Q

(courtesy of WannaJumpMyScooter)

It's deja vu all over again...

[chlamor]

38. May 13th-The Cost of the War In Iraq-$169,474,894,471

http://www.warresisters.org/wtr_menu.htm