this thing about the Real ID Act passing unanimously in the Senate . . .

[OneBlueSky]

as part of the Iraq appropriation has been eating at me all day . . . this is as close to total capitulation as you can get without bending over and kissing Bush's feet . . . the argument "we couldn't vote against it" gives the fascists complete license to use the same tactic for ANYTHING they want enacted into law . . . just attach it to a bill that the Democrats "can't vote against" and -- voila -- fascist dictatorship/theocracy! . . .

I'm becoming more and more convinced that this is all a sham, that both parties are working toward the same ends and just pretending to be different from one another . . . if that weren't the case, you'd think the Democrats would have at least stood up and screamed bloody murder about Real ID and the way the Republicans snuck it through . . . maybe even filibustered until it was removed to be brought up for a stand alone vote on its merits . . . but all we got was a few namby-pamby objections from Hillary and a few others -- followed by a unanimous vote that sets the Gestapoization of American on the fast track . . .

Ralph Nader was apparently right . . . we're dealing with a single party that's completely under the thumb of corporate interests . . . what the Democrats need to do to win me back is reject ALL corporate donations to prove that what they do legislatively is not controlled by their corporate sponsors . . . and I firmly believe that the chances of that happening are zero and none . . .

I'll be looking hard at third party candidates in coming elections -- if I vote at all . . . right now, the who charade seems an exercise in futility, particularly since BushCo STILL controls the voting process, and since Republican corporations STILL count the votes . . . and if you think that's going to change before the 2006 or the 2008 elections, you haven't been paying close enough attention . . .

[The Straight Story]

1. It's all about the giant conspiracy

Masons and all that. The illuminati, end of days, cashless society, and rule by the evil overlords.

And you think, perhaps, I am being a sarcastic ass. Only half the ass actually. The whole thing is starting to remind me of a book by Larry Burkett (not overly well written mind you and may the Lord rest his soul).

What is going on now fits with things people have been fearing and believing would happen for some time. A slow consolidation of power and removal of rights to usher in the elite to rule us. Some have watched for many years and see this as all somewhat expected (even if not of a religious bent, there is far more to it than religion).

Both parties are slowly melding into one, while each slams the other one to the public, they sit down for dinner and work together. As they secure their jobs and paychecks, they let us hang in the wind and throw us a bone here and there.

I don't have a lot of faith right now - but I think we have a better chance with the democratic party then the republican one of changing things and turning the tide. We have the right people - we just need the right leaders to do the job.

edited because my typing sucks hairy monkey butt tonight

[DrDebug]

13. Well spoken

And that's the problem. Hardly anybody will take this stuff seriously, because it sounds too weird to be true, but it is the NWO plan. The only difference with the old school NWO was that they talked about a one world government under the UN and that's no longer true.

Since the UN consists of too many nations and too many people they can't influence, it is slowly but surely being derailed and much more emphasis is being placed on the corporations, because through mergers they have become just as powerful and just as global and a lot easier to influence.

There still are good people left, but it is pretty clear that quite a number of people in the Democratic party aren't giving any real opposition when it comes to voting and diss only in public. But I do have some faith left and even though there is a lot of control, we are still in transition.

[Tux]

2. Yeah

We can't separate the parties from fundies or corporations at all. Who would turn down that much money and power? What we need is a bill that bans lobbying and invalidates riders.

[Freddie Stubbs]

3. Corporate donations? Federal candidates are prohibited from accepting

campaign contributions from corporations and labor unions.

[cosmicdot]

10. thank goodness no corporate money is involved in federal campaigns

:sarcasm:

I don't think your comment was necessary.

[hfojvt]

4. I always agree that Ralph Nader was right

as in not progressive. Now every time the Democrats do not do something progressives want, they will vote Republican. Yes that will fix everything. They will not even have to use the nuclear option when there are 75 Republicans in the Senate.
Yes, I know, Democrats never stand up for anything anyway. Every bill has passed unanimously in the House and Senate since the year 2000, so instead of Republican majorities, they might as well all be Republicans. :eyes:
That the AFL-CIO, the Sierra club rates every Democrat with a better score than every Republican means nothing, any more than it means something that the American Conservative Union (a conservative group in spite of having the word "Union" in their name) rates every Republican as more conservative than almost every Democrat means nothing either.
After all, it's not like Gore would have won if all the Nader votes had gone to him, and didn't Nader say that Bush and Gore would have done the same exact things as President? You can tell that because there has been no difference between the things Bush did and the things Clinton did. That proves there is no difference.
But not voting, or voting third party, are not going to solve anything that voting Republican would not solve.

[LandOLincoln]

5. Thank you. It's good to be reminded sometimes that

one of Ralph's good, good friends is

Grover Norquist.

[bpilgrim]

6. BULLSHIT - this has been going on for a long time

and everytime we complain we are told to shut up, it's all in our heads.

well fuck that, we got a long record right here on DU of the Dem's shameless capitulation always for clever political reasons.

our candidate for prez didn't even speak out about this ILLEGAL FUCKING WAR just said he would fight it better :puke:

that our party can't find enough of a difference between themselves and this out right IDIOT to make a compelling case to an overwhelming majority of the American people is a DISGRACE.

our party has big problems and the THIRD WAY is the source of most of them.

so stop being patronizing with your tired cliches and denial that there is a major problem in our party and our leadership.

if we can't make our leaders listen and FIGHT for us their problems will only grow worse.

Democrats to Allow Panel to Vote on Bolton

"We're not going to seek any delay," Biden, the senior Democrat on the committee, said in an interview after meeting with committee Democrats.

source...
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-bolton11may11,1,7318334.story?coll=la-headlines-politics

and now we got the guy who authorized fucking TORTURE the head of JUSTICE for Christ's sake :argh:

anyone who speaks truth to power gets smeared and we wonder why we are in this mess... it's because half of this nation live in a media and politically created FANTASY LAND. I choose to hold them ALL accountable.

peace

[hfojvt]

8. I did not say it was all in your head

I am only saying that there are three things which I do not see as productive of solutions - voting Republican, voting third party, or not voting.
Point out failures and ask for accountability all you want, but do not suggest any of those three as an answer. I am not a big fan of the third way. In fact, I voted for a socialist for President in 1992 because all three of the "major" candidates (Clinton, Bush, Perot) sounded like Republicans to me. I have to admit that was wrong - Bush was far worse than I knew and Clinton more progressive than I thought. However, I wonder if Clinton is not a little bit responsible for our loss of the House, which seems to hurt more than losing the Presidency.
I do not smear Ralph Nader or Alex Cockburn for speaking truth to power. I only say that when they slam Democrats they thereby empower Republicans. It is because of Ralph that the BFEE has the power that it does, and yet Public Citizen has the gall to ask me for money to help stop the disastrous policies of the Republicans. Gee, Ralph, wouldn't they have been stopped by Al Gore's vetoes? Hey Ralph if you donate all the money you saved from Bush's tax cuts to Public Citizen, that would be more than I will make in my next five years of work. I should have sent him thirty pieces of silver.

[OneBlueSky]

9. let me be clear about Ralph Nader . . .

I don't like him . . . I wouldn't send him money, and I wouldn't vote for him . . . all I'm saying is that in this particular instance, it seems he hit the nail on the head . . . that's all . . .

[hfojvt]

11. let me be clear, Nader is not just an a$$hole

he is wrong.
"we're dealing with a single party that's completely under the thumb of corporate interests"
BS. This appropriations bill passed 100 to 0, but the real ID rider came from where? House Republicans. How many House Democrats voted for it - the amendment, that is, not the final bill?
If it's a single party, then why do Republicans so often propose legislation which I oppose, and why do Democrats so often try to stop it, or failing that, make it less odious? If it's a single party why would Al Gore, John Kerry, Howard Dean, Wesley Clark, John Edwards, Dick Gephardt, or Al Sharpton have been much better Presidents than JR Bush? Not perfect, mind you, just far, far better.

[OneBlueSky]

19. deleted by poster . . . dupe . . . n/t

.

[OneBlueSky]

20. and, in the end, what the Republicans want always gets passed . . .

generally with the help of more than a few Democrats . . .

the opposition -- what there is of it -- is just for show . . .

I rest my case . . .

[bpilgrim]

12. "It is because of Ralph that the BFEE has the power that it does" - BS

that is not only a straw-man it is a cop-out.

so by him pointing to the FLAWS in Dem's it is now all his fault.

why aren't the flaws the Dem's responsibility? because the same could be said about us when we point to flaws in our leaders.

make RN bear the responsibility for our leaders mistakes is not only wrong it will get us NO-WHERE.

peace

[hfojvt]

16. This is Ralph giving a speech trashing Gore.

This is the MSM spreading a sound bite of Ralph trashing Gore. These are the voters who were persuaded to vote for Ralph instead of Gore. These are the voters who decide not to vote because Gore is no better than Bush. This is Ralph campaigning in a swing state. This is Gore winning in Florida if Ralph's votes had gone to him. This is Gore winning the electoral college if he had won Florida.
Before the election, Ralph was warned that he might be helping to elect Bush. Ralph's reply "so what?"
My answer to that is, if you do so, you are a traitor to the working class and to progressives. But Ralph does not care what the working class thinks any more than Bush does, because he was determined to help re-elect Bush in 2004 even after seeing how much worse he was.
No, the same cannot be said about us. First, I believe I spend far more time pointing out Republican lies and harm than I do looking for motes in Democratic eyes. Second, because I do not speak or write to large audiences or have a national spotlight.
I just want RN to bear the responsibility for his own mistakes which seem to me far more egregious than any of Democratic leaders'. He did everything in his power to put Bush in the White House in 2000. Maybe it will get me nowhere, but he has earned my eternal enmity. I doubt if he cares though. He is probably laughing all the way to the bank.

[bpilgrim]

23. NEWSFLASH: Gore Won Florida, BIG!

our hopelessly corrupt political system was unable to respond to 2 thefts and continue to appease our current fascist policies.

ralph simply woke up to the disease sooner than the rest of us.

maybe you should channel your outrage at our leaders who actually enabled and condone the direction of our country.

but be careful... if you speak out against our leaders you risk the wrath of thousands of know-nothings... FYI

peace

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bpilgrim]

27. they stole it TWICE, hello...

WAKE UP they cheated TWICE!

this should be priority No. 1 and our reps should be talking about VOTER VERIFIED PAPER BALLOTS constantly, where the fuck are they :argh:

that even some DU'ers still don't get it explains how much work needs to be done to snap-people out of their trance.

peace

[hfojvt]

28. I suppose only the Nader faithful know this

Apparently I am just another know nothing. Nothing I know is true. Nader never bashed Gore. Nader did not campaign hard in Florida. Nader is not a rich man who gets paid to make speeches and his supporters would never insult a poor man who cleans toilets. None of the letters I have written to papers have been critical of Bush or Republicans - I am just a know nothing who has never spoken out against our leaders, unlike the great saint Ralph Nader, benefactor of all working people.
Sorry, if Nader had withdrawn, or not campaigned in Florida and other swing states, or not have made so much of his campaign about bashing Gore, then I might have some outrage left over about stolen elections which are hidden from view while Ralph's betrayal is in plain sight.
You might remember, that Ralph's line was that it did not matter if Gore or Bush won, because there is not a penny's worth of difference between the two. So unlike myself, Ralph does not care who won Florida. Although Bush's victory did increase Ralph's bank account by several thousands and may even have lead to more donations to Public Citizen. God forbid an ignorant know-nothing believe that that is more than a coincidence.
Sure, Democratic leaders have enabled Bush's policies by opposing his 2003 tax cut by a vote of 50-51, etc. That is just more nothing that I know. I wrote a letter in October 2000 where I said: "quite frankly, a Bush presidency scares me". For a know nothing, that is pretty prophetic. Too bad Ralph did not lift a finger to stop such a catastrophe - quite the opposite.

[bpilgrim]

29. I hope not...

but considering the lack of M$MW coverage and OUTRAGE from our 'LEADERS' i wouldn't be suprised... nothing surprises me anymore.

FYI: Nader spoke often and forcefully about this SERIOUS problem with OUR democracy and HE actually asked for a RECOUNT of his VOTES unlike our 'shipmate' KERRY who went AWOL.

what does he get for his efforts of spreading the word? HATE

like i said, it's not HEALTHY.

:hi:

peace

[slipslidingaway]

7. An idea on this topic to think about,

"These "resistance leaders" of the "Left" act as "Gatekeepers"—influential "progressive" figures who use their resources and visibility to regulate the debate, tactics, and rhetoric of the "anti-war" and other "progressive" movements.

The Gatekeepers of the So-Called "Left"
"The press is the hired agent of a moneyed system, set up for no other reason than to tell us lies where their interests are concerned." — Henry Adams

In his shocking investigative report "The Left Gatekeepers", journalist Bob Feldman researched purportedly "Left" activist and media organizations that receive substantial funding from large establishment foundations with known ties to the CIA, the Council on Foreign Relations, the Trilateral Commission, and even the much-maligned Carlyle Group, the arms dealing "investment fund" featured in Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11, of which GHW Bush, the Saudi royal family, and, at one time, the Bin Laden family, are all equity partners.

http://www.newtopiamagazine.net/articles/40

See also...

"The Money Masters
Bill Still (3.5 hours - Volumes 1 & 2)

View online

An absolutely mind blowing film that covers the history of money and banking systems throughout Europe and America. It shows how wealth is concentrated, using documented facts. A must see."

http://mysite.verizon.net/res7dhyg/slaverevolt_finance.html

MAKING THE MONEY MASTERS

http://www.themoneymasters.com/making.htm

[Swamp Rat]

14. Real ID is unAmerican

An yone who supports Real ID is a traitor to America!

I will NEVER follow that unAmerican law.

[sandnsea]

15. Democrats pushed National ID

Maybe ten years ago, before Bush anyway. So I don't know why people are so shocked they voted for it now. Not a sign of any DLC/PNAC conspiracy, rather a response to OK City that might have prevented 9/11.

Not to say I like all the crap in that bill, I don't. But I already have to jump through hoops to get a driver's license in my state, and they already run social security numbers through a multi-state system in the west. Lost any illusion of privacy that I might have had years ago. This should have been stopped when they wanted to use our social securty numbers on our driver's licenses, hell it should have been stopped when they consolidated credit under social security. But noooo, the "if you don't break any laws" crowd always wins.

[slaveplanet]

17. true

but , this version will paint each person by their credit rating.

eventually
-It will determine where and when you can go
-where you can't go
-your buying habits
-you will have to swipe for every thing you buy including cash purchases
-you won't be able to be employed without it
-whether you have proper insurance
-your movements everywhere will be tracked
-biometrics will be used everywhere due to this ID
-just about any draconian classification you can think of will eventually be wrapped in this
-it will be your star of David on steriods
-this will be your own personal FBI dossier you are required to carry at all times by law
-illegals will be exempt , because they can use the Consular Matricular.
if they use that to apply for this real ID. Voila ,virtual instant amnesty, so it will encourage , not curtail illegal entry.

So, I'm not sure the old Dem version was quite like this ....but don't be fooled into to thinking this won't change too much of daily life in America....These ARE your SLAVE papers...and this is not America

[RBHam]

18. We warned you, we were laughed at, called conspiracy theorists...

9-11 worked it's Reichstagian magic.

[OneBlueSky]

22. well . . . I, for one, never laughed . . . but I did hold out hope . . .

that the party that I've supported for some 40 years would come through and actually oppose the imposition of a fascist dictatorship in this country . . .

that hope fades more and more every time the Democrats further enable the BushCo agenda . . .

[mmonk]

21. We're really up against it.

The people really have zero power.

[bpilgrim]

24. real change only comes when enough people realize

that we DO have the ultimate power.

we must wake up to the fact that we need to speak up and DEMAND that our leaders respond to us or we will MOVE ON until we find someone who does respond to our needs.

DEAN is a good example of a politicians recognizing that real change is required and that they and we will benefit by listening to weTHEpeople.

:hi:

peace

"Individuals have international duties which transcend the national obligations of obedience and therefore have the duty to violate domestic laws to prevent crimes against peace and humanity from occurring." -Nuremberg Tribunal, 1950

[MadHound]

25. Welcome to the club, please leave your assumptions at the door

Many many of us have been screaming this for years and decades now. We've be laughed at and ridiculed, accused of being conspiracy theorist or just plain crazy. We eventually realized that the shit would have to really get into the fan before people started waking up and reallizing that they are being fooled. Well, hallelujah, the time has approached, and people are starting to snap out of their stupor. Welcome to America under the two party/same corporate master system of government.

But don't dispair, there are measures that we can take in order break this corporate stranglehold, but it requires work and effort.

First, vow now to never, ever again vote for a candidate that takes corporate cash, and make this vow known to your represenatives in government. This will not effect your local elections much unless you're in a big city, but it will certainly effect your voting patterns in state and national elections. There are some Democrats who are still clean, Kucinich vowed(and followed through) to not take corporate cash in the last election, and there are a few others. The Greens have made the refusal of corporate cash official policy.

Second, work like hell to make publicly financed election campaigns a reality in your state and across the nation. Two states have already enacted such measures, Maine and Arizona. Twenty two other states can enact it via the initiative petition route. The rest will have to ram it down their legislatures' throat.

Third, work like hell to make instant runoff voting a reality. There are two things that make a democracy work well, real choices and full public participation. Many many people have dropped out of the voting process due to the same dispair that you feel. Giving them more and better choice will bring them back to the voting booth, and the way to make those choices happen is via instant runnoff voting.

We're not going to make this happen overnight, but there is still, hopefully time left. And as more and more people wake up and smell the corporate stench, the ranks joining us will swell until we win. But we've a long row to hoe, and we need to start now. So don't grow apathetic and despondent, there is hope left and things we can do.