If A Sick Person couldn't afford health care

[Must_B_Free]

he would die. But if he had comitted a crime and he were in jail, would he be able to get health care?

Interesting question, isn't it?

[WilliamPitt]

1. Hell of a thing to post

[Jesus Saves]

2. He's not making an accustion

But I doubt that a prisoner could get a Whipple procedure done.

[Horse with no Name]

7. Yes they do.

Not getting appropriate medical care in prison is considered cruel and unusual punishment. Go figure.

[Jesus Saves]

10. I don't think they get the best

The Whipple is the best, is it not?

[Horse with no Name]

17. Not sure what you mean

If any procedure is the best, but it is the only treatment for a certain disease process--there aren't any options.
Trust me, when a doc says you need a Whipple procedure, there won't be an either/or choice.
It is have a Whipple or die.

[Must_B_Free]

20. Any shot is better than none

The point is that apparently we will make at least some attempt to save prisoners from cruel and unusual punishment by offering some form of health care, but free people - we let them die unless there is revenue to be had.

[Horse with no Name]

36. Exactly.

It's an important parallel to make. Everyone in this country should have equal access to healthcare, whether you are an inmate or an upstanding citizen.

Being poor shouldn't mean we have to die because we can't afford healthcare.

[SGBL]

16. Yea the founders must have just put that in there

for shits and giggles. Certainly not to stop certain people who take a sadistic joy in the thought of torturing inmates.

The people who want to subject inmates to torture... I always wonder about them. I wonder how many want-to-be killers and other violent people hide behind wanting to do X cruel thing to "inamtes" but also want to do it to others...

[Horse with no Name]

19. You misread me.

Perhaps I should have expounded my thought process.
In prison not getting appropriate medical treatment is considered cruel and unusual punishment, however, out of prison not getting appropriate medical treatment is considered okay. It should be across the board cruel and unusual for every citizen.

[tyedyeto]

4. I'm not the OP of this but I think what he's trying to say...

is that prisoners in this country can sometimes get better health care than the average American who doesn't have insurance.

[SGBL]

3. Uh no

Not at the hospital Andy is going to

[tavalon]

47. Actually, if John's Hopkins has a countract with a county or state prison

then yes they will get the same care that Andy will get. I highly doubt that JH accepts prison contracts but if they do, they are obligated to provide the same care.

[Maru Kitteh]

5. I think that would depend on what state

he were incarcerated in. Some people have engaged in faux bank robberies and such to get the medical care they needed. One messed up "system" we have.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Catherine Vincent]

8. That may be the case because they let the newbies

doctor them. But that's better than nothing, I guess.

edit: I agree, the OP should take Andy's name from his post.

[Horse with no Name]

13. Every Resident is under the direction of an Attending Physician

And the attending physicians monitor the care of all patients that the residents treat. Prisoners do NOT receive substandard care, nor should they IMHO.

[tavalon]

48. correct and correct

Any person or institution providing substandard care to a prisoner would be subject to losing their license.

[Must_B_Free]

23. I did to satisfy you

but it doesn't read as well.

hope you're finally happy now, cop...

[Horse with no Name]

32. Thank you for changing it

You brought up such a good topic that it shouldn't be pulled for being inflammatory.
That was the only reason I asked you to change it.

[Catherine Vincent]

38. Well Thank you. I am surprised you changed it.

It does read much better.

[BamaLefty]

9. I Agree

Not a very wise thing to do...

I mean, we get the point, but don't put another person's name into a fictional title about them being a felon. You get my drift. :)

[dweller]

12. well, isn't that the point?

i'm suprised this post is up this long, should have been shutdown already.

dp

[tyedyeto]

11. I agree... take the name out of the post title n/t

[VOX]

14. It's uncool to use Andy to make this particular point...

Edit the post if you can.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dweller]

31. no she's right and

you are out of line.

dp

[Must_B_Free]

34. no, you're wrong

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dweller]

39. .

dp

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

15. Not much

People who get cancer in prison, die of cancer in prison.

And I agree with other posters here, it's somewhat tasteless to use a real and unfortunate person's name to make this point.

[DemBones DemBones]

22. Prisoners have been known to get transplants, though,

and I think it's illegal to deny them such very expensive, very specialized care when they need it.

I also thought the opening poster was making a point that Andy Stephenson would, perhaps, get better medical care if he were in prison. And get it free, to boot, paid for by taxpayers. Irony, you know.

Why don't we have a national health plan that provides health care for everyone at low cost to patients? When are Americans going to insist on this?

[greatauntoftriplets]

21. WTF is the point of this????

n/t

[Must_B_Free]

27. The point is to ask the question

why will we let people die for lack of revenue unless they are incarcerated?

[greatauntoftriplets]

30. What was the point of calling out a DU member????

n/t

[Bluerthanblue]

45. thank you for asking the question- it should be asked..

and thought about-

(one could even learn a trade- though i don't advocate commiting crime to better your life, it is abit .....off....)
i ranted at length below-

[Bluerthanblue]

44. i get the point-... i've been pierced by 'the point'...

... and i appreciate his asking it-

in another thread discussing the need for helping each other out 'without strings'- i mentioned that i'd even thought of committing a crime in order to recieve health care-
WHICH i cannot get without having a lien placed on the only thing i have to give to my children- who have lived with poverty, and alot of struggle most of thier lives- i'm a single mother, (my ex is completely out of the picture, and lives 'underground'- he's a very sad and troubled soul, and incapable of caring for anyone including himself,- i have sole custody, and responsibility and the blessings of thier 'well-being') i also have health problems that pretty much assure me that i will finish my life FAR short of my 'life-expectancy'- and am unable to get any form of health coverage- my oldest child is 21- and a diligent hard worker, who has worked full-time for the last 3 years- i have no 'kin' to fall back on, and am incredibly fortunate to have caring physicians that are helping me get vital meds, and doing everything they can to help me 'hang in'-
Someone (sorry i can't remember who you were) was kind enough to offer a few alternitives i hadn't thought of,- like marrying a friend for in order to have access, or an older man- unfortunately, i don't have any un-attached friends who have any health-care that would cover my 'pre-existing conditions' without 9mos. of 'no treatment'- which would be very effective, in that they wouldn't have to bother adding me to the policy-

i believe there is NOTHING wrong with providing adequate health care to the incarcerated- in my state, they DO recieve good access to good MD's- as well as dental care, and even mental health care- without having to 'pay back' the state when they are released- it would be self defeating for me to go to jail to get the care i need, and leave my kids to fend for themselves- what would be the point?
The OP of this thread addresses a real dilemma- AND hyprocricy- that exists in our society- just like those who fight to end abortion, but don't want to have to help 'fund' the up-bringing of those BORN children-

The greed, and privlidge that divides this nation is worse than i've ever seen- i applaud those of the 'other faith' who feel that providing for peoples basic needs, at the expense of some of thier 'excess wealth' is not without merit-

We mothers teach our children not to hit, to share, be patient, use your 'words' rather than violence or acting out to get your needs met and voice heard- and then we tell them to 'grow up' - and our government tells them to hoard, hate, and look to their 'ownership' society- while invoking God's blessing-

i'm tired of the double-speak-..... i tired of the petty attitudes- and the arrogance and greed that dominates this weary world- i'm tired of the hatred, and fear, and tit for tat.

guess i'm just plain out tired-

thanks for the question- and for letting me blow off steam-

i mean no one any offense- nor do i direct my rage at any 'person' rather at the powerlessness i feel, and the ignorance that so many people have about each other- myself included in that group-

[peacebaby3]

25. Not really. Check out how good health care is here:

<http://www.patrickcrusade.org/HAMILTON_LAWSUIT.html>

I've read plenty of info about other inmates holding fellow inmates in their arms when they died because nobody else was there. If you have cancer, it would be horrible care.

I agree no person's name should be in the title of the post. Particularly with the current, sensitive situation here.

[democracyindanger]

26. Yes

just really crappy care

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/05/11/MNGDACNA031.DTL

[Must_B_Free]

28. Which would you rather have-

crappy care, or none?

[democracyindanger]

29. considering

crappy care can easily be worse than no care at all...none. Leave me to my own devices.

[Must_B_Free]

33. one could calculate the prison with the best health care

and get into that one...

[peacebaby3]

46. Have you ever been to prison?

I've never been incarcerated, but with the work I do, I have been in many prisons. Nobody, unless mentally insane, is going to commit a crime just to go to prison for the health care. They would be much, much better off going to a free clinic. If they have a fatal disease and have to rely on prison health care, 99% chance they are going to die. Unless it is a level 6 prison, there is probably not a physician even on the property most of the time and there is certainly not adequate facilities for radiation and chemo (for example). They would have to be taken somewhere for those kind of treatments and then returned to prison unless they were on their death bad.

Again, I think this is comparing apples to oranges and not a productive discussion to solve our severe problems with health care in this country.

If you have a problem with the amount of money that is spent on prisoners for health care, you may want to try doing some research into sentencing laws and prison overcrowding, etc. HOA is a good example of why so many people are serving life sentences in prison right now. It is used for many cases where it is inappropriate. For example, there was a guy sentenced to life for stealing a bicycle because it was his 3rd strike. The previous two strikes had been under similar circumstances. Do you think he should have been in prison for the rest of his life because he stole a bicycle? We've got some big problems headed our way in this country if we don't agree to pay more and more taxes, reform sentencing laws, or start executing people for posession of marijuana and stealing bikes.

[tavalon]

49. I've worked in a number of public hospitals who care for indigent

and prisoners and I have never, ever seen them receive inadequate care. They get the same care as I would and in most of those hospitals, I would be happy to be a patient - not because they are clean and fancy as they are neither but because I know the high caliber of the caregivers there and the caliber of care I would therefore get.

[peacebaby3]

35. Here's the difference -

If we as a society place a person in prison we have taken away his/her ability to get healthcare so therefore it must be provided. We have also taken away the ability for anyone else to help them receive medical care. In essence, we have taken over the responsibility of everything involving that person. The only other solution is to let them die of illness in prison.

It's a shame what is going on with health care in this country, but I don't believe these two situations are comparable. Just my opinion.

[undeterred]

40. I knew a physician who worked in the prison system

The short answer is yes.

:rant:
She told me that she saw many men who had never been to a doctor that they could remember. They were completely unfamiliar with the concept of a "medical history" and could not imagine why someone would be asking about injuries or illness that happened in the past. They did not know about childhood illnesses and would not bring up something like alcoholism or mental illness in the family to a doctor. She suspected that many of the men in the prison system had been physically abused as children, that many had experienced head injuries which were never reported or treated. She said there was so much untreated mental illness it was overwhelming, and that as an internist she could do very little about it.

People in the prison system will get a cut sewn up or a broken bone fixed, or medication for hypertension, but its doubtful that they'll get the kind of medical care in prison that anyone on the outside would think was adequate.

Sorry for the rant, I know that wasn't the point of your question!


Edit: Its not unheard of for people to commit crimes so that they can 1) be where all their friends and family are, or 2) have 3 meals a day and a roof over their heads. It doesn't show much in the way of living skills, but I'm sure there have been a few people who decided to get themselves incarcerated in order to get health care.

[hiley]

42. undeterred

Many have also died needlessly in prison because some guards who didn't give a fuck to take them to the infirmary. The level of care inside prison depends on the Warden, State and the Guards and Society.
The prison system in America is atrocious even though (some) have a little health care.

All humans even people we don't like deserve health care, food, clothing, and decent shelter with clean water and common decency.

"You Must be the Change you Wish to see in the world"
Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948)
http://www.gandhiproject.org/project/project.html



These mid-wives are purported to have said they no longer look forward to births as.... "We don't know what's going to come out."
http://www.web-light.nl/VISIE/extremedeformities.html

[undeterred]

43. this physician friend I had was overwhelmed and on the edge of burnout

She works a lot of 10 and 12 hour days. She has a lot of compassion and is something of an activist for the prisoners. But she has to deal with men who have never trusted anyone and who missed out on a normal family life and sometimes the education they needed to take care of themselves. Try being an advocate for prisoners to get better health care- not such a popular subject.

The thing is, I believe with her that if our society made mental health care more available, it would have a large impact on crime. There's hardly a week that goes by that we don't hear about some terrible murder where a person just went over the edge. If people without a dime in their pockets could walk into a clinic and ask for the support they need when they are addicted or in despair- well at least a few of them would do that instead of commiting a violent crime.

A little health care is not enough...

[Cleita]

41. When my husband was going to get dialysis in the clinic,

they used to get a busload of prisoners and guards from the Men's Colony nearby for dialysis, so they do get health care.

There was a case where I lived in Idaho, of a man, with a wife and six children, who died from multiple sclerosis, with no care except what his family could provide.

There are more than 18,000 such deaths each year in the USA of people who die from diseases that could have been cured if they got health care.

[Modem Butterfly]

50. Not necessarily

Most medical facilities will work with you to work out a payment schedule. There are researchers who need subjects, depending on your condition, age, gender, etc.. And there are always fund-raises, such as the controversial Andy Stephanson one here on DU.

Being sick and uninsured doesn't necessarily mean that you'll die. But being uninsured sure makes being sick much more difficult.

[undeterred]

51. Being uninsured makes you defer routine care until you can afford it

and sadly, sometimes that means that things that could be detected and treated at an earlier stage are not.

[Modem Butterfly]

52. Again, that isn't necessarily true

People who are uninsured and eligible for Medicare/Medicaid often go to the ER when they or their children have an illness. It's a problem for ER docs who are tied up with fairly routine illnesses (strep throat, the common cold, etc) when emergencies occur. Not to mention the costs that are incurred by the hospital that are uncomped by Medicare/Medicaid (testing, etc). This is NOT to ding people who have to rely on Medicare/Medicaid by any means- the situation they're in is completely absurd.

Contrast this with people who have insurance that is inadequate, such as a friend of mine who's insurance has a high initial deductable. She's responsible for all costs until she reaches her $1,000 deductable, but with two kids and a husband who's out of work, that amount might as well be a $1,000,000. She has what she describes as chillblains on her feet and ankles and says she has poor circulation due to cold, except that it's May here in Atlanta and in the mid-80's. I'm pretty sure she's diabetic, based on some other problems she's had (constant thirst, frequent urination, unaccountable weight loss). I am urging her to go to the doc and get tested, but she's rationalizing it, saying that she can't afford any kind of treatment right now anyway.

[undeterred]

54. my best friend died of ovarian cancer in 2001

She lost her health insurance when she divorced, so she postponed routine care till she was in a better financial position... she was self-employed and would not have qualified for medicaid.

She had abdominal discomfort for a couple months and by the time she got to the doctor she had stage 4 ovarian cancer. She died 2 months later. She had no reason to think she was seriously ill.

[Modem Butterfly]

55. That's a shame.

I am sorry for your loss.

[Avalux]

53. Ironic - "if I were terminally ill, I'd rob a bank"

this country needs a good dose of ethics. I am so tired of the word 'morals' - it's been turned into a parody by so-called Christain fundies.

It's really very simple - take care of each other; respect each other. Religion is NOT needed and actually impedes the advancement of the human race.

Unfortunately, our society hasn't a clue. That's why we are headed down the path to destruction.

[Just Me]

56. IOW it's only cruel and unusual if you're a prisoner.

I've been making this point for years. It's not that I don't believe failure to provide the imprisonment basic health care is cruel and unusual. It just irks the crap outta' me that good, law-abiding folks are precluded because they don't have the money. That's wrong!

I knew a lady that worked the county jail. She said there were lots of folks who would commit petty crimes just so they could get food and shelter.

There's just something really wrong with that picture.

[Bridget Burke]

57. Health care in Texas prisons is not that great.

Especially for the growing number of mentally ill inmates.

People on the outside CAN get health care without paying if they can prove their financial status. However, advanced disease is much harder to treat--& inexpensive, regular diagnostic testing still costs too much for some. By the time they get help, it might be too late.

The health care system needs to be overhauled for everybody's benefit--poor, middle class, "good" & "bad."