My semi-controversial piss-you-off post for the week

[WilliamPitt]

The last time I posted this message, maybe a year and a half ago, I got a lot of angry responses. Probably it had to do with how I framed it. I'm going to try to do better this time, because it is really really important, and my experiences since then have only reinforced my concerns.

Important Disclaimer: I am not in any way bagging on old people with this post. Read that several times.

OK

Since June of 2003, I have given speeches at least once in New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Delaware, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, North Carolina, Indiana, Illinois, California, Washington, Arizona, Colorado, Texas, New Mexico, Montana, Nevada, Iowa, Ohio, New York and a whole crapload of western European countries. In most of these places, I have spoken more than twice. Locally, it happens at least once a month.

In far too many instances, I have seen that the organizers, participants and audience members are well above 50 years old. Most of the serious activists I have met are at least 60, if not older.

Read my Important Disclaimer again. The efforts of these people have been extraordinary.

But as Kennedy said, "We are all mortal." As a 33-year-old activist, I am staring down the barrel of a frightening truth: Within the next 15 years, a substantial portion of the bedrock organizing badasses in the progressive activist community is going to pass away, or become too old to kick ass the way they are now.

I saw it again last night. Gave a speech in Concord, MA. I was the youngest person in the room by ten years on the short end, and by 40 years on the long end. My audience was a sea of gray hair. Maybe 60% of the time, in the 200,000 miles I have traveled and the 500 speeches I have given, that is what I see.

My point: We need to do whatever we can do to activate younger people to start grabbing the reins of basic activism organization in the next few years. If we don't, we are going to be in bad trouble.

Read my Important Disclaimer one more time. I am NOT talking about the now. I am talking about 2020.

Discuss.

[donco6]

1. I'm 45, and I was by far the youngest at

my last Dem precinct meeting.

Sea of blue hair is right. And the funny thing - I didn't even know my neighborhood HAD that many seniors! I rarely see them anywhere else. It's odd. Walking down my street, it's a dodgem track avoiding the trikes and toys on the sidewalk. Maybe people just feel they're too busy? Or we've been lulled into thinking we're too busy? I don't know, but it is a real looming problem.

[WilliamPitt]

4. The cynic in me says

nobody else gives a shit, and older folks come from a time when people did.

My internal pragmatist says a lot of it has to do with available time during retirement.

Not an excuse.

[Kevin Spidel]

9. forgive him...

he is sleep deprived. lol


seriously...


it's not that they don't give a shit. its that they are tired of talking to local "older activist" who don't think outside the box, and are willing to give local power over to the youth.

[tavalon]

84. Yeah, when I was working at the local Democratic headquarters last fall

there were many, many youngins putting in huge hours. But as the time went by, they were getting disgruntled because they had their hands tied. They had some innovative ideas (that could have used some finesse, true enough) that got vetoed because "we don't do it that way."

I think the sea of gray are a bunch of really helpful but really hindering forces.

I don't believe that the cause will wink out after the older folks pass on but I do hope/think it will become less like our father's political system whatever that might mean.

Pulling on Flame Retardant Suit

[conflictgirl]

127. I totally agree with this

I was 30 when I was volunteering before the elections last year, and I was definitely one of the youngest ones there by 15-20+ years. I am a published freelance writer and I asked if I could do any writing to help out the cause in addition to the other stuff - they told me I wasn't allowed to just write stuff because it would have to be approved etc etc and I should just stick to making phone calls, following the scripts.

I had one friend a few years younger than me (I'm a college student, so I have lots of friends in their early 20s) who really wanted to defeat Bush, and she went with me one night to one of the meetings. She said she felt totally unwelcome and never went back. Despite the fact that I spent many weeks with these people, I never felt like I was really welcome either. New people who were in their 50s would show up and be invited along to go for a drink after our work, but I never was.

I'm not whining about this, but yes, it does require that young people really put themselves out there a lot to get involved. I have three young children and am a full-time student, so I had that factor to overcome in addition to feeling unwelcome.

[catzies]

12. Available time is valid. I'm an empty-nester at the young age of 42

and I'm active in half-a-dozen different local, grasroots, and partisan groups.

[Kevin Spidel]

24. Available time valid?

yes.. for meetings...

but..

the youth blog movement, the youth cyber activists, etc. That takes time, and they are successfull in doing all of this. but they do this type of activism is done their own way, and on their own schedule.

this is the "outside of the box" activism i am talking about.

how do we get the youth to put down their mouses and get to door knocking. or to get involved in the Bureaucracy of the State and National party system.

[ultraist]

Old school vs. new school has been a problem in my area

The gatekeepers have a certain way of doing things and the door is not wide open to young, innovative activists. Local grassrooters in my area have been complaining about this for years. Several splinter groups exist and there is some resistance between them and the official party.

To give a small example, during the campaign, several IT people offered to set up online phone lists and a blog (for no charge), but the powers that be, weren't interested.

I do think that time is an issue though. The majority of people between the ages of mid thirties and early forties have smaller children at home with both parents working. Once the children are grown, people have a lot more time on their hands. And of course, in retirement, they can volunteer much more.

[salvorhardin]

129. That was my experience too

back in 1992 working on the local county Clinton campaign. Sad that still exists.

[Jackpine Radical]

110. Hey, Will--

I work a full-time job as a forensic psychologist for the state and maintain a private clinical practice on the side. I have a couple of other projects going on in my spare time: I'm revising an old book of mine that's been out of print for a few years, and conducting some EEG research for a new book.

I'm pretty much a regular at our county party meetings, and was reasonably active in the local peace movement and in the last Presidential campaign. I also spend 'way too much time hanging out at places like this on the net. I'm 60. I guess I'm just one of those geezers with too much available time on my hands.

[bpilgrim]

119. The Frist Filibuster Hits Washington (Princeton students / DC)

Princeton's student protest leaves the campus

Princeton's Frist Filibuster hit the road early this morning when, after finishing an on-campus political protest that lasted more than 300 consecutive hours, 45 sleep-deprived students piled onto a bus at 4:30 am to take their campaign to Washington. The students oppose Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist's bid to change Senate rules to prohibit Democratic filibusters against judicial nominees, the so-called "nuclear option" that may soon come up for a Senate vote.

The Princeton group, called Filibuster for Democracy, started its two-week, nonstop filibuster on April 26, reading everything from political speeches and poems to phone books and the digits of Pi. They stood in front of the Frist Campus Center, so named after the Senator's family pledged $25 million to his alma mater. As word of the effort spread, hundreds of students joined in�despite looming exams�and a number of parallel protests started up at other schools, including Harvard, Howard, the University of California at Berkeley, and Yale.

Upon arriving in Washington, the Princeton protesters were joined by students from area universities, and set up a filibuster platform in front of the Capital Reflecting Pool. A team of bloggers on site posted news of the protest at FilibusterFrist.com and used a Webcam to project live images.

In addition to student speakers and constitutional scholars, Congressman Rush Holt and Senator Frank Lautenberg spoke at the protest, and Senator Jon Corzine was scheduled to speak Thursday. The students plan to return to Princeton Thursday evening. <snip>

more...
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1060378,00.html

people with the time (older folks) and information (older folks), young or old, will fight back.

it is up to the rest of us to spread the word.

peace

[patricia92243]

135. The young, unactive people will grow older and become activist all in

their time. I wasn't interested in politics until I got old. This younger generation will do the same thing. Don't worry.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

2. Allow me to flame you first

Look you fargin' bastid. My hair is NOT GREY. I dye it every month whether I need to or not!

:D

[Susang]

13. I always need to dye mine every month

Damn roots. They always come back! :mad:

[BeHereNow]

23. Oh PAH-LEEZE NSMA!

Having known the pleasure of your company in person,
trust me when I tell you, your beauty is from within
and if you shaved your head completely, that fact
would not change.
BHNDAD said to tell you "hi"
They are coming back in June for the kid's
graduation- perhaps we can have another dinner?
BHN

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

34. We can indeed..in fact we're looking forward to it

:hi: to all the BHN's

[BeHereNow]

36. Oh Goodieeee!

I got the piano tuned again, so all is well.
They are coming the week of the 13th/ june
Looks like the boyfriend from New Orleans will be
here too, so we will have a full cast for a reprise performance!
Yippeee
BHN

[Swamp Rat]

159. Tell him to bring some Zatarains so y'all can berl some crabs or sumptin'

and some zydeco CDs. ;)

Way'at! :D

[TahitiNut]

63. Well, inquiring minds want to know ...

... oh, nevermind. :evilgrin: My grey hair mixes nicely with my blond hair. :dunce:

[cmd]

75. I've been called a geriatric hippy

and it doesn't bother me in the least. I will say a good word for all the Young Dems in my area. Last April I began working with (and for) activists who were in their twenties. They were very patient in teaching me new tricks. I was there to sooth over mistakes and keep things running on an even keel. The days from April until election day were some of the happiest of my life. I salute those young men and women who worked so tirelessly for ACT and for the Kerry campaign. I feel all warm and fuzzy when they come up to me on the street to say hello.

[ClassWarrior]

3. You're billboarding them now??

<LOL>

What you say makes lots of sense, by the way.

NGU. :patriot:

[mzmolly]

5. One possible reason is they may have more time on their hands?

Perhaps they'll be replaced with us when our hair is grey? ;) I agree however, perhaps we need to make time.

[ClassWarrior]

7. Make time. MAKE TIME!!!

We need all of us!

:hi: Mol...

NGU.

[mzmolly]

11. I know ... I know.

;)

:hi:

[tavalon]

86. Thing is

age often comes with a certain rigidity of thought and process (not always but often) so we will get more bang out of our buck if we can get people active before they get grey. We'll get new bood and new ways of thinking and acting.

[Kevin Spidel]

6. 2020

Futurerama says we will be talking heads. no need to worry!


seriously...

YDA
YDS
21st Century Dems
others

are working to replace and grow leaders/activists.

the are all working in campaigns. each several years staffers get more numerous in youth. they just don't get active locally and stay focused locally.

we need them to become PCs.

[FinallyStartingToWin]

In the year 2525....If Man Is Still Alive...If Woman Can Survive...

they should be activistssssss bum bum bum bum


:hi:

I agree with ya Will.

[BeHereNow]

8. I concur with you-

When I have attended local events, including the
one I met you at some time ago- I did not fail to
notice that the majority of attendees were, well, older people.
I am not sure why this is- but it does spell trouble in a
big picture way.

There is a FABULOUS group here in Los Angeles organized
by Frank Dorrell, who redistributed "Addicted to War" the
comic book that pretty much defines the MICC.
I am happy to report that there ARE some younger folks
at Frank's house parties and gatherings, but not nearly
the numbers we need.
What do you propose?
BHN

[cally]

10. We have a serious problem in all of our volunteer and activist

organizations. Everyone has to work long hours these days and most folks don't have time to volunteer. Before women often worked less hours and had more time. I don't know how will motivate folks to take over when their children are grown and they have more time.

[Nikki Stone 1]

41. Exactly. People are working 50, 60, 70+ hours per week

Methinks, they keep us that busy so we can't rebel.:evilgrin:

[Lilith Velkor]

113. That ain't no joke.

I've been thinking that for years.

[kliljedahl]

14. I'm 55

& by far the oldest at our local DU Meetup, but at the local Democratic club I'm in the middle. I fear you're right.


Keith’s Barbeque Central

[G2099]

15. Some of the young coming back from Iraq are going to Kick Ass

The young generation has has not experienced the depression, 2 world wars, Viet Nam war, lynchings, segregation, the civil right movement, all the many assassinations, the fight for union right, voting rights, etc, etc.

And the number one thing is that the younger generation has not experienced a draft.

But some the young coming back from Iraq have already started to kick some butt.

[Toots]

16. Establish the Draft... They will come screaming and crying....

:shrug: the young just don't give a shit as much as the elderly, they are too busy having fun and getting laid.

[NoodleBoy]

17. Hell... Mother Jones was at least in her late 30's by the time she started

It's a problem for all ages: college students and younger are hard to motivate to do something for free. Maybe the younger, high-school aged kids of activists will want to get involved, but they'd probably peter off after a few years.

My personal experience (and so far, basically my biggest) was at a Progressive Democratic caucus. The age things I noticed most were, that I was probably the youngest there (20) and that only one of the organizers of the event and some of the people who were at tables for other organizations were near my age.

The other thing I noticed was how clique-ish the whole caucus seemed. Although the event was open to anyone, it was mostly only people who knew people who were there who attended, and I spent a good portion of my time alone, standing in the back of the room. No one tried to make conversation with me-- unless I was looking at some of the things they had on the table they were manning, and even then it seemed to only be out of necessity.

The best way to counter this, in my mind, would be to involve the College Young Democrats clubs more at these events, but again, the groups are so disparate and inwardly-focused that numerous conventions, caucuses, and other events went by almost entirely un-noticed, with neither group really giving indication that they wanted the other involved somehow.

Even when they talk about wanting to get other people involved, which was a question at the caucus for one of the speakers, and was alluded to by some members of the YD's, they seem to forget about the best way to create a dialogue with people-- to actually ask.

[punpirate]

18. See if you can start scheduling talks and...

... events on college campuses more frequently. They're where the intelligent kids are. :)

Unfortunately, many of those people who retained their activist credentials into their 50s and 60s earned them initially in anti-war (read: anti-draft) protests. It may take another draft for yet another phenomenally stupid and imperial war to convince younger people that their interests are being threatened by the Bush corporation.

Cheers.

[Hissyspit]

122. That was my initial reaction: "Why aren't you speaking at colleges?"

[POAS]

19. Just keep beating the drum Mister Pitt

and before you know it a chorus of the young will join you, only they won't be all that young anymore.

[Cleita]

Our local club has the same problem, all old people.

I think the problem is that old people have the time and many of them the money that young people don't have. Our democrats' club members always whine about getting young people into the club for the reasons you stated above. I have suggested that instead of the fancy restaurant that they hold the meetings, they should hold it in the local union hall and serve coffee and donuts.

Young people just don't have the money for fancy restaurants and maybe they might have to bring their kids with them because they can't afford babysitters. So I have to rag on my fellow grays that we have to be accommodating to the young people to get them involved.

So far, deaf ears have prevailed, or maybe they have their hearing aids off. :shrug:

[The Blue Flower]

We have the memory

We're the ones who understand from experience what's at stake. Maybe the lessons need to be learned all over again: war is stupid and ruins lives, hunger hurts and ruins lives, a sick economy causes sick families and ruins lives. (RitaW)

[Jacobin]

20. We lived through the horror of Viet Nam

and are watching it unfold again before our very eyes. It's like watching a train wreck in slow motion with the people in the trains cheering the engineer to go faster and faster and faster.

It's a fricking nightmare.

Back then, it was the middle class who got carted off to the jungle to die and get blown up and do unspeakable things to people who had done us no wrong. Right now, its just those who signed up for some college money, or folks who want to be lifers.

When the draft comes, the young will rise up. I don't hold it against the young of today. If it hadn't been for the draft in Viet Nam, I'm ashamed to say I might not have been politically active then either.

[tabasco]

21. Maybe don't say "discuss" at the end.

It sounds like you are lecturing us. You discuss.

[WilliamPitt]

31. I just did discuss

I wrote 150 words, you wrote ten. I win. :)

[Aristus]

22. I was at the anti-war rally in Seattle on March 19th of this year, Will.

It would have done you a world of good to see activists of all ages out there saying their thing. It was wonderful. Whole families of husbands, wives, children, in-laws and out-laws were there making their views heard. There were young kids from ages 5 or so on up. I loved their fervor and enthusiasm! Like you, I'm in my mid-thirties, and worry about all the good old-school liberals dying off. But, Will, if you could have seen the kids!: dancing in the chilly Seattle rain, waving their signs, pounding drums, sounding off. I saw commitment and belief that I would swear will last until 2020 and beyond.

We've got a lot to be worried about right now. But it's important to remember that the desire to be free trumps any and every tyrannical power ever devised; we will be successful. I believe that.

[theboss]

117. It's easy to go to a rally

You get to yell and march and maybe get laid.

It's not so easy to sit in a rec room and stuff envelopes.

[gratuitous]

25. You wanna see more young-uns give a damn?

Re-institute the draft. The very real potential for sudden, brutal death wakens and activates many young minds. At this time, the possibility that young folks can have an effect on a system that doesn't address or even acknowledge their needs seems minimal. It's of the old fogeys, by the old fogeys and for the old fogeys, as far as they can see.

In my late 40s opinion, that is.

[tavalon]

90. I feel horrible agreeing with this

but I do. I think we need a draft to motivate the young, the young folks parents, the young folks marital partners, the hippies who forgot their hippiedom and everyone else who would be affected.

But in that scenario, blood will be spilled, probably a lot. It's so sad.

[ghostsofgiants]

26. I'm 20 and I try to get my friends as involved in activism related things

And they all seem to show somewhat of an interest.

[mike_c]

27. 50 year old activist checking in...

...and a university prof as well, which is relevant to my next statement. Many of my students have liberal ideals-- most do, by an overwhelming majority-- but few are really interested in working for change. And mark my words, I am NOT "bagging" on young people. I just don't understand the phenomenon. Most of the young people I know are passionately non-apathetic, but utterly disengaged. I don't think it's a matter of us having grown into our activism either-- I began marching against the Vietnam war when I was a teenager. I grew up in the midst of the civil rights movement, and was only a generation removed from the great union battles of the first half of the twentieth century-- and I watched the farm workers' struggle myself.

No answers here, just similar observations, Will.

[tavalon]

92. Iraq

doesn't really affect the day to day person much at all. Vietnam effected everyone. Early life is passionate but that passion can be channelled to so many things. In the Vietnam era, it channelled towards antiwar and political anger.

Those of us here are political junkies and hobbiests. Go out into the bigger world and most people couldn't tell you who the Secretary of State is or who is being nominated to the UN, etc. Heck, there are a huge number of them who don't know nor care that the presidency was stolen twice over and that Bush is just a figurehead in front of the real, dangerous president Cheney. Basically, none of this seems relevant to their busy lives.

I know one way it will become relevent and therefore interesting to the youthful masses (the draft). I'd like to think we can come up with a less bloody way.

[iconoclastic cat]

28. If the action does not involve the possiblility of sex, no one will care.

Or shoes. Or Xboxes.

[Nothing Without Hope]

29. This is very, very scary news. The GOP has been going after young people

and they are very susceptible to nationalistic propaganda (the Hitler Youth felt they were being patriotic). The Fristians are even intruding into at least one of the national military academies, which is another topic that worries me:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1762771#1763754

I had no idea the situation was that bad. I did notice an age-group poll done at DU a month or so ago, with lots of respondents, and the distribution was similar to what you describe. There were just a few young people and lots of people in their 50's and 60's. This surprised me, and then I started wondering if a lot of us are refugees from the glory days of protests that worked and the idealism that drove them.

This is the clearest statement of this age issue that I have heard anywhere, and it terrifies me. If we don't reach the young, that's just the end. Period. So we have to reach the young. One more reason, as if there needed to be one, to do more than just fight off GOP horrors one after another, we have to come up with coherent programs for people to turn to. See Jen Sorensen's amazing cartoon and some more thoughts on this here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1777043

[WilliamPitt]

33. I sure was. Wanna hear something crazy?

When I was about 13 years old, I wanted to be an Army Ranger, and thought 'Red Dawn' was an accurate reflection of reality.

Kids are Play-Doh.

[Nothing Without Hope]

53. This Nietzsche quote is unfortunately all too true - and I supported

conservatives when I was a teen. My best friend's brother was kicked out of the John Birch society for being TOO CONSERVATIVE - I'm not kidding. And what could be cooler to a very young man than the image of an Army Ranger off to save the world heroically from obviously evil enemies? So easy to nudge them into those thought patterns. They grow up with it in cartoons and video games even before they start paying attention to the KoolAid on politics. And their minds and bodies fit into that mind set so easily.

Here's the quote:

The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. –Friedrich Nietzsche, philosopher (1844-1900)

Will, you are onto something MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR here - this has to get spread around, strategized over, and acted on. It's not about old people, it's about how to reach the young and then doing it. The GOP and their enablers are going after young people quite deliberately and the example of Hitler Youth is all too apropos. So is the Red Guard during the Cultural Revolution atrocities - lots of young faces there. It's a recurring theme because the young, especially young men, respond to appeals to their loyalty, idealism, and desire to prove themselves but usually lack the experience to see through KoolAid-dispensing authority figures. The neocons know this and are going after it with a long-range plan, as they do everything. We have mostly overlooked it, a grave error that must be rectified.

The problem of conservative fundies intruding into the military academy (and what is happening in the others?) raises an additional issue: Where will the loyalty of our future military lie? (Not to mention what these people will do when confronted with non-Christians.)

Edited to add: The special gifts of the young - idealism, fresh insight, optimism, energy - are essential for a truly balanced society or a successful social movement. Both genders and all ages have something unique to contribute. It isn't just that we are overlooking a population segment, it is a POSITIVE place to turn. We tireld middle-aged warriors can get too cynical without the fresh enthusiasm to inspire us. And they need us too. It's one of those all for one and one for all things.

Thank you for bringing this up, Will. What are you going to do with it?

[Zorbuddha]

81. Very well put.

Thanks for that.

For some reason I've always been suspicious of the military, while`revering the sacrifice of good and gentle men called by duty into violence. War has almost always seemed exploitive to me, when it is anything but defensive or a last resort. Your take on this resonates with me in an uncommon way. We need to wake up to war profiteering, see it for what it is and rise above it before it drags us all under.

[Nadienne]

125. There is no need to recruit today's highschoolers into Hitler's Youth

These ideologies are embedded in their textbooks, and the media denounces teachers who resist.

My little sister is going to the same Catholic high school that I went to. During the 2004 presidential elections, students were encouraged to pray for Bush's victory. Over the weekend, the school put on a play, and my sister was one of the lead roles. Written on the wall by the door to the auditorium was a quote that made competitiveness a virtue. What ever happened to good sportsmanship?

When I went to that high school less than ten years ago, we learned that communist countries were always wrong, that the US was always right. We learned about concentration camps, but we didn't learn about fascism. We learned that the Great Depression (and not the whole idea that, "Sorry: we can't make profits if we hire you") caused massive unemployment, but the stock market crash was an act of God, for all we knew - as preventable as a hurricane or an earthquake.

When my older sisters went to that high school ten years before me... Well, I don't know what they learned. All I know is, my parents and I are the only ones in my rather large family that take a personal interest in politics. They are nearing retirement age, and I took it upon myself to get informed. If I had waited for someone to inform me, TV propaganda would have gotten me. Or some other clever propaganda would have gotten me.

It's too late for my older sisters, and I am glad that they aren't politically active. I'm working on my younger sister. The people that I know that are about my age... a handful are interested in politics, and probably will become more involved. The rest are more interested in being accepted by their peers.

The cause of all this is, in my opinion, that wealth-protecting interests have more resources at their disposal to promote their ideologies, or at the very least to promote apathy.

[Nothing Without Hope]

132. All good points - unfortunately. Controlling the textbooks and the

course design and the teachers' ability to speak the truth is WHO? You know and I know and it ISN'T US.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

30. The anti-war demonstrations I participated in in Portland were

populated mostly by people over 50 and people college age or younger.

Generation X was largely missing. (Apologies to GenX DUers who are involved.) It was like what you hear about countries in Africa where AIDS has wiped out the "parent" generation and left only grandparents and grandchildren.

The two main streams of GenXers that I see are the Young Careerist Parents, who are totally tied up in the hectic zoo that family life seems to have become these days, and Young Slackers, who are just too hip to concern themselves with mundane problems.

[Ysolde]

79. You know...

I'm one of that weird generation...I'm "technically" a boomer (born the last year to "qualify"), but I don't really fit that mold (have 4 & 8 yr old) and I know I'm not a GenXer, either. But, because I'm a Careerist Parent, I know the hectic zoo of which you speak. But, also, because of my kids, I'm becoming active. I have to, for them.

The problem for me, here, is an entrenched "dynasty" that believes they own the local party even as they are watching it disintegrate. It's similar to what's going on in my Corporate job. As the pie grows smaller, the people fight harder among themselves and destroy more of the pie in the process. Repeat until no more pie for anyone.

I've joined a local Progressive movement and have managed to be going to our State Democratic convention, but it's beyond crazy. I can totally understand why others with small children don't bother. I wish we could make it easier for them. Suggestions?

[RetroLounge]

32. Hmmm, lets see..

New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Delaware, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, North Carolina, Indiana, Illinois, California, Washington, Arizona, Colorado, Texas, New Mexico, Montana, Nevada, Iowa, Ohio, New York.

Where's WISCONSIN?????

We got some involved youngins here, but yes, we need MORE...

RL

[WilliamPitt]

35. I avoid states filled with Baldwin look-alikes

Call it an aversion to the movie 'Malice.'

:P

[BeHereNow]

38. Wait a minute...

As I recall YOU are a Baldwin look-alike...
Heh,
BHN

[WilliamPitt]

39. LOL

No, I am a Judd-Nelson's-Underdeveloped-Little-Brother lookalike. :)

[BeHereNow]

44. Oh no- not so.

Lucky for you, I am old, or I'd come after you.
As I recall, you were QUITE the honey...Baldwin has nothing
on you and could take a lesson from you as far as being a "hottie."

BHN

[VelmaD]

60. Nah...

not under-developed since ya started workin' out. :P

[RetroLounge]

55. But I heard you were a Baldwin Brother?

You know, the other one, what's his name...

:hi:

RL

[WilliamPitt]

56. Yup, they call me 'Bucky,' the lost Baldwin

[RetroLounge]

73. Bucky Baldwin!

That's it!!!

:rofl:

RL

[undeterred]

37. Activism begins in the home

Well, I don't know if it really does, but it might.

What you're saying rings true with me.

The most committed young activists (18-22 yrs old) I have seen are those who have activist parents. They aren't necessarily interested in the same issues as their parents, but they've grown up believing that they can make a difference by getting involved.

There are a lot of older retired activists. If they are lucky enough to be healthy and financially secure, this is a great time of life to start getting involved in issues. Some were activists 35 years ago and are putting that hat back on. But maybe its also true that with life experience they realize what is happening to this country on a deeper level than younger people do.

Edit: I met a couple of young people working on the Kerry campaign that kind of blew me away-- like a 21 year old man from California who took time off his job and spent his own money to come to a swing state and go door to door every day for three weeks. He could do 3x as much territory in a day as the average middle aged woman- and without complaining about it~!

[Worst Username Ever]

40. I think working three jobs is excuse-a-plenty for not going to

hear some guy talk about politics. At least, that is my excuse. Also, I don't have to go to get-togethers to get my information (like activists used to), I have it sitting right in front of me, and I am more likely to get the answers I am looking for (as well as make my opinion heard) than if I went and listened to some guy talk.

No offense to will, but if I was not on DU, his name would mean very little to me, and he would just be "some guy."

edited for clarity

[SmokingJacket]

42. My 30-40-something friends are all radical activists....

IN THE PTA!!!!

Not that there's anything wrong with that. But speaking as a person staggering through the swamp of children and family, I can attest that most people my age are completely alienated by politics. The focus is: kids, spouse, self, immediately community and then -- THEN, if there's energy left -- the state of the country.

NONE of my friends are into politics. I hate this, but it's true. They give me wary google-eyes if I bring up anything political. It's like psychic overload or something.

BUT I think they'll change once the kids move out. Meaning, activists might always come from the young and the old.

Those of us in the middle are focused on our damn kids.

[Ysolde]

83. But my kids

are WHY I'm getting involved. I may not be able to go door to door, but I can do web sites (for our new Progressive group and the local County Democratic Headquarters). I can attend conventions. I can give my time (phone calls, etc.). And, I must.

But, I know exactly what you mean because no one around me (except my beloved husband) is as involved as I am. I think they think I'm trying to start a political career!

[SmokingJacket]

96. Well... me too!

Wish there were more of us!

:toast:

[WLKjr]

43. Will, I am 20 yrs old and I know how you feel

I went to a local dem meeting to propose to them a website in order to help them have another way to get to the people, and I kid you not Will, I am the younger by at least 25+ years......it worries me.

[Horse with no Name]

45. Problem is that the majority of our generation

doesn't give a damn because they have never experienced real hardship.
I dare say before the end of this year, certainly by the end of next year, hardship will be a way of life and you will see younger activists everywhere.
If the draft starts and all these precious children of the SUV Generation start packing their bags, then you can be assured that will be what gets people off their asses and make them quit worrying about who the next Idol will be and start worrying about the mess the country is in.

[BeHereNow]

47. Sadly, I agree-

It's ALL about the personal "comfort zone."
The good 'murikkkans are way too comfortable
as a lot, and will not get off their asses until they
feel some pain in a personal way.
BHN

[warrens]

46. Will, there's a reason

They basically drive people away with political correctness run amok. I got involved in the Rolling Thunder thing a couple of years ago, and just gave up in frustration. All they wanted to talk about was if the organic farmers could sell brownies and crap, while I was saying that if we're going to use Grant Park, if you want attendance, get some big-name bands, many of whom will play for almost nothing. And since I knew a lot of the local guys, I could find a few and they could talk to their friends. They looked at me like I was a Martian and went back to arguing about organic farmers.

I think attendance was about 200. 12 speeches by local politicians, a poet and a folksinger. Compelling stuff.

In contrast, the groups I am involved with now average about 35 years old. The Dean meetup groups, the KerryTravelers and so on are still around, under different names.

The old lefties are nice people, but a lot of them are totally out to lunch.

[NuttyFluffers]

153. Electric guitars, firebreathers, glowsticks, strobe lights...

any questions?

seriously, what is being asked here is for 20-somethings to get out of their school life, young family life, or beginning career life, to go, on their rare free time, outside of sex and preening, to go listen to heavy, dry, lengthy discussion. most stuff like that is unpopular for a reason... takes too long and too much effort to really get into. there's *no style*. when was the last time you saw a discussion about... "Ming dynasty amateur scholar painting and its impact on social life in the 17th century" packed with a minority of grey hairs? so why would politics treated in the same way be any different?

you are absolutely right. we get dry content (very C-Span, which I and several friends love, but admittedly is incredibly dry), or we get completely disconnected lefties trying to relive their youth.

also with some of the activist youth you are looking at the most unpopular of the unpopular. there's a reason why young republican groups are so vociferous on a lot of campuses -- that's as about as social those freaks are ever going to get. they are roundly hated usually, and absolute killjoys at parties, hence they stick together with all their 'angst.' they have nothing better to do than kvetch their spleen every other hour. and then you get the proto-communist group with their concern over co-op organic brownies for social revolution, sans milk chocolate because it's lactating bovine slavery, with the strict rules for commune conversation (hold the speaking stick... put your name down on the list for alloted time to speak up...). damn right you aren't gonna get a lot of 20-somethings' attention. if i wanted to be bored to tears i'd rather go home and be a wastrel couch potato on my own.

are we speaking about these things? hell yes. just not to you in your environment. want to speak to us? meet us halfway. visit a party, a rave, a festival, etc. if you want to talk about these things, you'll find plenty in agreement and willing to talk -- as long as you leave room for savoring the groove. we're young, we want to be stimulated, is that really too hard to understand?

that and there's a entropic, passive-aggresive strain to my generation's form of resistance. but that's another post.

[firefox]

The Internet is the big thing

There was a 16 year-old that showed more understanding of things with his composition he posted on DU than anyone could have done when I was young back in the days of the Vietnam War. There will be a more educated strata of young people than ever before.

I believe what a lot of people feel is a sense of helplessness and a "what I think (or vote) doesn't make any difference. The two-party system and the electorial college are gamed so that the wealthy will never experience the fear that came with the populism of the 1890s. Just look at medical marijuana where 4 of 5 people accept the need for such legislation, yet the government shouts "No medical value" over and over. Overwhelming opinion, science, and history means nothing when the system shuts down debate and the media goes to silence.

It will take someone with guts like Kucinich that says the train is going the wrong way and that it is time to put on the brakes on Empire and fascism (and with that vocabulary)to get people excited. As long as we are faced with tweekers that say America needs just a slight adjustment there will be apathy. Somebody has got to say things are screwed up as hell and that we have to quit living the lie the USG and the media project. Somebody will have to say "get real" before the young understand they are needed to make a better future where they will be the primary beneficiaries of real change.

[meganmonkey]

48. Yep - we're the oddballs, Will

As a 30 year old, I know exactly what you're saying. I went to a few anti-war rallies in DC leading up to and right after the war started. I was most definitely on the young end. There are some college-age kids around, but very few in between the young and the older.

At the election reform Teach-In last weekend in Columbus, it was all the more obvious since there weren't a whole lot of people. There were maybe a handful of people younger than me but most of the rest had to be at least well into their 40's.

It is worrisome. I think the folks up-thread who said that a reinstatement of the draft will get them active are (unfortunately) right. Our generation is all kinds of angst-ridden but they have no understanding of why - they seem to really believe that material gain will make them happier. Reaching for that stuff just puts them deeper and deeper into a hole (think credit card debt) and it is never enough. I currently live in an 'exurb' and that is what I see. Shiny new SUVs and fancy looking clothes but the faces are MISERABLE. I don't know what will wake them up. :(

[SouthPasadenaDem]

49. Yeah, this is why I can no longer stand attending my local democratic club

meetings. At 41, I'm the youngest person in the room, and by twenty years.

Pretty scary, huh?

[marions ghost]

50. Seems to me the group least represented

are the younger parents. It's gratifying to see a few of them here at DU doing what they can. But I wish there were ways to get them more involved. It's hard these days to raise kids and everyone I know seems to put an amazing amount of effort into it. Is it realistic to expect parents to think about the world beyond who has to be picked up from where today? Is this avoidance or what? I'd like to hear from young parents (or from parents whose kids are out on their own now and they are still concerned about their futures).

What kind of world should these kids be thrown out into? What can get parents' attention to bigger issues? What are the obstacles to participation in organizations? Is it a Boomer/genX gulf? Do young parents feel it is really OK to put blinders on and hope for the best, or is there genuine worry out there? Is there a better way that might fit this family-oriented group? I realize that those parents here at DU who have already decided to pay attention to the larger landscape and contribute may not be typical, but maybe some insights will be gleaned in looking at this question. (Personally I'm cut off from the mainstream on this and live in a world of artists and writers and academics whose reproductive rate is on the low side, partly due to economics).

Anyway, this was the first thing that hit me, in response to what I think is a very real concern Will brought up, that there is an age gap here. I think we are going to need EVERY individual from every generation who can manage to get involved. But we might need to have some different methods of approach.

[Ysolde]

89. I'm not really

a "younger" parent, but I have young children, so I sort of qualify. I know that going to dinners, $50 Dean functions, $75 John Edwards functions aren't possible for most parents of young children. We manage because we decided that we have to think about more than saving for college and we've given up things to budget for these things. But, it would REALLY be better if the local Dem machinery was more family friendly. Then, the families with children could come and join in and the party would grow.

I, too noticed that I was on the young side of the crowd at all the meetings and that does not bode well for us. Maybe it's a matter of time, but I really think it is a matter of convenience. Churches have childcare and lots of other kids to play with. Dem meetings don't.

[JanMichael]

51. We went to a Spong presentation a few weeks ago, only a few under 50.

We're 37 and 41 so when we're the youngsters at a hyper-liberal event one has to wonder...

And this isn't the only time either, with almost every group I'm involved with most of the participants are over 50, with a few brave souls under 30.

I don't quite know what to say or do about this. My sister and her friends are under 30 activists, which is incredibly cool, but they're outnumbered by the Apathetics and the mouth-breathers...

[amazona]

52. this is the reality in every hobby, and no one knows what to do

Don't get me wrong. Politics is more than a hobby. However, just as hobbies do, it takes time and money. Today's household has precious little of either. If you have a job, you are probably working more overtime than ever before. If you don't, you have no money and are very cautious about how much you take the car around because you can't have some bozo hitting it and getting it totaled and the insurance company doesn't give you enough to replace it.

Get away from politics from a few days. Stop by the clubs for other hobbies. The gem and mineral "rockhounds?" Average age of that hobby is, as one dealer told me with a laugh, about 106. Birding? Everyone says they are a bird-watcher but if you are a 40-something on a bird tour, you will suddenly find yourself called "young lady" and "miss." Or just step in the casinos. Miles and miles of seniors. Now visit a church. In fact, stop by 5 or 6 churches. It is the same story - only the old can attend and support the church.

Our seniors (65-up) and "junior seniors" as a friend called them (age 55-65) are the only segment of population left that has any significant numbers of citizens who possess both adequate money to pursue their interests and adequate free time.

I do not know the answer to this. I would LIKE to see laws legislating 35 hour work weeks such as were once seen in Norway. In this way, more unemployed would have jobs, and more of the employed would have free time.

Unfortunately, the nation is moving the other way.

I do not know the answer to this. But if you think it is just a political issue, you are dead wrong. It cuts across the spectrum and is an issue being hotly debated everywhere.

It is an extremely serious question but alas no one I know has been able to find a good answer. This is not a problem only Democrats have or only activists have or only political groups have.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[i miss america]

54. When an issue comes along that hits home for them, the youngins will

put down their XBox controllers, turn off their IPods, pull up their shorts and do what they have to do -- just like every generation that came before them.

And as Toots posted above, bring back the draft. That'll wake 'em up.

[WI_DEM]

57. unfortunately that is what it might take

otherwise too many are complacent. By the way, we have some great student activists still in Madison, but we certainly could use more.

[WilliamPitt]

70. Iraq, 9/11, jobs, the environment, torture, did I mention jobs...

I'm wondering what silver-bullet issue will do as you say when all the others have not.

[Chovexani]

157. This is not the way to get young people engaged

It's condescending attitudes like this that exacerbate the problem. No matter how much young people like me who are involved in activism scream and shout to the contrary, our elders seem to think we're all idiot slackers.

Note to the uninformed: contrary to popular opinion as spouted by older folk on DU, it is possible to both enjoy video games, TV, etc. and actually give enough of a shit about the world around you to get involved.

Jesus on a trailer hitch, the stereotyping is tired. Why don't some of you old hippies put the Dead albums down and start listening for a change? :sarcasm:

[KoKo]

58. Get your "Bad Ass Outta Here!" You look older in your last

post kissy with Matcom than us "oldies" here.... I know the fatigue of the last four years has deteriorated your health and after 30 some males do need to do "adjustments" in the hair department....but why bring back this post....EEEEEK.

Now, on a serious note. If you are talking about the "Boomers" the age range is very broad for them. And, even the "oldest Boomers" aren't ready for the Nursing Home, yet...so don't go there! The youngest are born somewhere in the early 70's which means they are in the "Prime of Life" and they are busy raising families, paying bills and trying to figure out how to survive.

So, the "Oldie Boomers" are the ones who still have the gumption to get out there and protest, petition and join in reading "TruthOut.com."

I understand that you wonder why there aren't more folks like you out there...but sadly there's another factor besides "mortgages and jobs and kids." It's that the "Older Boomers" had FIGHTING for CAUSES in common and after watching the crap that's gone on all these years after JFK Assassination (comperable to Hunter Thompson's Death for you guys who looked to him as leader of YOUR Generation) some of us really feel that before we get too old to do anything we need to pick up "where we had to leave off" before the kids, mortgages and jobs (downsizings, mergers and crap) just ate our time resources and souls out...but allowed many to educate kids, have divorces, do alternate lifestyles and all the rest.

WE'RE BACK! But, where are the "Fresh Troops?" I think Will Pitt and many here are the "Fresh Troops."

Should I throw you my cane? :D...(now...just take this with the humor it was intended) I got your original post...but it was written with the eye of a "New Rebel/Convert" without wisdom of what your "old age" since you've been on DU should now convey.

I didn't address your original point in the way that you asked...but it was just a typical KoKo "chide." Please take it in the spirit it was intended.

PEACE!

[KoKo]

71. Just MHO...but the DU 20 and very Early Somethings...will save America.

I've done some posts here on my time on DU and watched what the "flow was." But, we have a broad age range on DU and the "sharing between generations" was what has always been the BEST OF DU. We have all age groups here in the "Activist" definition. But, the youngish ones will be the ones who will lead the banner with us who are late 40 and beyond walking in the crowd with our canes and false teeth...still fighting on but with less time left to see the results of what we hoped to achieve when we were the "New Kids on the Block." :shrug:

[Just Me]

59. We had a few under 35 who participated.

I'll be blatantly honest (which always gets me into trouble). I was the youngest (42 year-old) official organizer adopted by "the elders". We hit it off grand, connected immediately, supported one another loyally. However, "the elders" were not only failing to focus on recruitment of younger folks,...they were, in so many small ways, pushing the ones who showed interest AWAY. It was very frustrating for me because I was so excited every single time a younger person showed interest and, as I would encourage them, "the elders" would simultaneously impose a these picky forms of discouragement that just made me mad.

:shrug:

I loved being adopted by "the elders" and loved being in the presence of younger folks who expressed an interest in politics. Yet, I had the weirdest sense of competition between the two,...no,...a competition being asserted AGAINST the rare youth who expressed an interest or knowledge of politics,...and it bugged me, a LOT. I ended up defending the younger adults quite a bit. It wasn't enough, though.

"The elders'" passions were sizzling. Combine those passions with experience,...and those tough-skinned, big-hearted, incredible human beings can scare the shit out of anybody!!! However, they can also end up smothering or scaring away those who want to play a role in humanity's future.

My biggest problem was that I recognized and acknowledged the passion and experience of those whom I still maintain contact and greatly admire; yet, I discovered how such admirable qualities can become, well, hell, so unruly as to actually suffocate the very human beings who would carry such passions and experience forward.

That was my experience as best as I can express it.

[izzybeans]

61. Will I totally agree but if you want a "bedrock badass" at 60

look in the mirror and add a few years.

Campus activists are in abundance perhaps some cross-fertilization with them is in the works. They tend to get sucked into campus protests and forget that walking off the lawn might do them some good. Reminders to engage the wider community might get them connected to the "old gaurd", provide some mentors, and inject them with some political capital.

But hey I'm a follower don't listen to me.

[Just Me]

102. MENTORS.

Instead of looking for one, I BE one when I have the opportunity.

[izzybeans]

118. Excellent. nt

[understandinglife]

62. If Bu$h and the neoconsters announce a draft, Will, the room will ...

.... be full of bushy-tailed youngsters like yourself.:evilgrin:

I do think, however, that many under-35 y/o folk in America are truly pissed and many remain quite dismayed, or worse, by the non-election of 2 Nov 2004. What is needed, now, is motivation and highly visible motivators.

As to motivation: The 23 July 2002 British classified memo on Bu$h's intentions to make war on Iraq, no-matter-what, is sufficient grounds to launch an all out mobilization of American citizens to remove Bu$h and all the other criminals from office.

As to motivators: Imagine Valerie Plame, Sibel Edmonds, Sharon Stone, Julia Roberts, Jennifer Aniston and Kirsten Dunst, (and ????), announcing a nation-wide "Tour of Truth" - an unrelenting campaign of telling the truth to Americans. Individuals not running for office, exquisitely eloquent, and totally appalled with the lies and atrocities of Bu$h and his neoconster buddies.

Plenty of folk with $$$ would likely finance that tour and plenty of folk would attend.

Time to do this peacefully is diminishing daily -- all the more motivation for folk to get to it, immediately.

Plenty of motivating images exist, but I think this one could be the 'icon' for the tour:



Peace.

www.missionnotaccomplished.us

[all.of.me]

64. we need another radical revolution like we had in the 60s

those days defined who we are today, and yes, we're getting older. i'm 51 and the tail end of the baby boomers, who make up the activist crowd you speak to.

i don't know how to ignite passion in the younger 'kids'. i have a 15 year old daughter, and she is the MOST mainstream person i know! she is into everything i rebelled against, and she means it with her heart. she is not defiant.

i don't know how to spark a revolution. i don't think anyone is so personally affected by it that they want change.

it is a scary thought where this country will go when the progressive crowd disappears..... i've never thought of it like that.

[sweetheart]

65. Marketing

Going to listen to speaches by activists is very middle age.
You're selling to a grey market. The youth market does not buy
activism on your terms, and you are not finding their terms.. yet.

Don't blame the youth. Blame your marketing. The USA will be mostly
ethnic by the year 2050.. majority non-white. Are you giving speaches
in spanish? WTF are you doing in europe stirring up american activism
for? Of course you'll find agreement there, but from those who are
aware of the community callendar, who have the time, no dinner dates
no evening job and want to listen to a lecture... (read: gray market).

The youth are struggling to survive in america today, to get on the
first rung of the economic ladder. Are you speaking to them? The
youth are having drugs problems, relationships problems, do not trust
establishment authority and establishment partisan thinking... are you
talking to them?

Are you speaking on univeristy campuses, about womens rights in the 21st
century under fascism. The similarities between fascism, corpratism
and bolshevism, and republicanism? Are you trying out the marketing
that gets you in front of youth today.

As much as i respect that you are an ex-school teacher and very smart
chap, and a writer, with a fan club here on DU, we're hardly a test
market... politics is for the old, when you've got a vested interest
already. The young are in a different sphere, and your message
says you're simply not creating a reason to attend for those folks.

[evlbstrd]

66. I even see it my polling place.

Almost all of the volunteers are elderly.

[welshTerrier2]

67. OK ... so why do you hate old people ??

sorry ... couldn't resist ...

actually, the problem is probably much worse than you've stated ... it's certainly true that we old timers have not instilled much idealism in the generations that have followed us ...

in the "good old days", some were worried about racing the Soviets into space ... some were inspired by the Peace Corps ... or the free speech movement ... or the civil rights movement ... or the anti-war movement ... or the anti-nuke movement ... Americans were the good guys on a mission ...

and it's not that there aren't plenty of progressive causes to fight for today ... but i'm often confronted with a very deep cynicism when i try to encourage others to participate in the political process ... i attribute some of this to Reagan's "government is evil" campaign ... "they're all crooks and they're all out for themselves" ... "keep your hand on your wallet" ... "tax and spend" ... "$800 toilet seats" ...

the sense that things are "getting better" and that the US and its government are "the good guys" is becoming more and more difficult to believe ... and i'm sorry to say that many don't seem to hold much respect for either republicans or Democrats ... it doesn't make those who are so skeptical right but it is a problem when it comes to getting more people involved ...

the root cause of this cynicism, imho, lies in the disconnect most citizens have from their government ... many elected reps have absolutely zero visibility in their districts ... it would be a great thing if John Kerry, Howard Dean, Harry Reid and all sorts of other Democrats showed up periodically at a school assembly or a Little League game or a college campus ... for most Americans, not just the young, our government has become invisible ...

government and the political involvement of citizens should be an everyday business instead of something that happens every 4 years ... out of sight out of mind ... spending time talking to people, and listening to people, may not be an exciting, dramatic solution to the problems we face but i think sometimes you have to make sure you achieve the fundamentals before you start looking for fancy solutions ... if Democrats want to inspire the young, and older generations as well, they need to learn what the phrase "face time" means ... otherwise, the apathetic future you've envisioned will become a reality ...

[jus_the_facts]

68. S'all over in 2012...The Unfolding....

....this guy thinks so anyway! :D


http://www.jayweidner.com/2012Topology.html


"The age of iron has no other seal than that of Death. Its hieroglyph is the skeleton, bearing the attributes of Saturn: the empty hourglass, symbol of time run out …"

- Fulcanelli -

[Logansquare]

69. My 80-year-old mother didn't become an activist 'til retirement

She didn't have the time or the motivation. Now she's a driving force in her county Dem party, and in two local nonprofits.
I'm discounting what you say, it's just that I, like so many other working stiffs, put in 50 hr weeks. I can be an activist from my computer, but getting out to a meeting during a weeknight is tough.

[eleny]

72. It's going to take a draft

That was one of the huge motivators for my generation to hitch to DC if necessary to protest the war. And we haven't forgotten how frightening the realities were back then.

I appreciate your posting since I've been thinking about this issue on and off all day today. Thanks.

[zanne]

138. Exactly, eleny!

Once it becomes their ass on the line, they'll get interested.

[CornField]

74. A book for you to read: "Bowling Alone"

[Tafiti]

76. Some thoughts from a 24 year-old.

What you describe is indeed unsettling, especially since the "battle" is just beginning. Instead of writing a well-developed, coherent essay of paragraphs, I'll just give random bullet points of general thoughts/observations on why young people are not getting involved.

- Brainwashing. They are being "fed" news. Those who only casually pay attention to the goings-on of the world, and within our own country, are very malleable. While they may have an inherent distrust for American government, this is not so with the mainstream media. I think too many young people still believe that news is news, period, and are listening to and internalizing too many messages that are currently being widely circulated by the right-wing media machine. Sadly, given the fact that accurate news (i.e., truth) can hardly be found anywhere save the internet, young people don't seek it out. It takes a conscious effort (and time) to look for and read about what's really going on, and they just don't do it. Thus, I agree with the older folks on this thread saying that the threats facing us are not staring them in the face like they were in the mid-20th century. Part of the reason for this, of course, is the fact that the conservatives have mastered the art of spin and media manipulation, and all the threats we face today are well-hidden.

- Hopelessness. Some liberal friends of mine have basically given up. There was this hilarious Onion article around election time, sporting the headline Area Liberal Too Exhausted To Care (or something like that) with a picture of a young man with a book laying on his chest while he sleeps in a position similar to someone who might have passed out drunk. This is a real problem. There is definitely a perception out there that getting involved doesn't produce any real results, and that there is essentially no hope for progress. I admit to feeling this way fairly frequently. One only has to have one of those conversations with a conservative who simply has no clue to prompt the thought: "Is it hopeless? Because this person certainly is." That great quote from John Stuart Mill comes to mind: "Although it is true that not all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative."

- Jobs. As college grads make that transition into the working world, a lot of things change. The whole cog-in-the-corporate-machine thing surely has a negative impact on any activist leanings. It's the hypnotic routine of it all, creating a somnambulist way of life that fits perfectly with either political apathy, or Republicanism. Not only that, but having to resign yourself to the fact that idealism doesn't pay the bills, it's easy for people to give up and join the crowd, and ease the pain with lots of sex and alcohol.

- Inherited political beliefs. Far too many people I know are simply handed the proverbial baton when it comes to politics. Hey, their parents are conservative, so they've obviously thought long and hard about this. Of course, this only applies to people who like their parents.

- Money. Maybe I'm just overly-idealistic, but the pervasiveness of greed and want-of-money among the young is depressing. It is by far the number one consideration when it comes to choosing a career path or just a general path in life. It truly is all about the money. Help people? Politics? Too much effort, not enough (material) reward. Bottom line.

- The comfort of a crowd. This may sound silly, but think about it. During the draft protests and the Vietnam War protests, there were throngs of people rising up against war machine, rising up against injustice. Crowds grow fast, and the message spreads like wildfire. As many others have noted, there's no imminent threat staring them in the face, like a draft. That would definitely get people moving, just as it did back then. Going it alone in political activism can get disheartening very quickly, because there's no sense of cohesion and identification with people like themselves, especially age-wise. There are simply too many people who don't give a shit, and knowing this will breed pessimism and apathy quickly. Plus, in this digital age, people are too fragmented. Everything is done over the internet, phone, e-mail, whatever. Too much information, too little time.

There's more to add to this, but now I have to go. Great discussion topic, though - very important.

[WilliamPitt]

77. I just wonder

how this is different from 30, 40, 50 years ago. It isn't, really. Our 'idealized' past is just that.

[Tafiti]

103. I don't know. Maybe it's not.

Of course, I wasn't there, so I don't really know how it was. Perhaps it's just my perception. In any case, I think it's different somehow - not trying to make excuses, but I do think it's a "different world" in many ways.

It's also the same old story - that young people look at politics and are instantly turned off, and can't imagine it could be anything but "politics as usual", with all the negative connations and baggage that phrase carries with it.

[KoKo]

82. I hear this from 20 Somethings alot... And, thanks for posting this!

What YOU are dealing with is very different growing up in a much more fractured peer group than "Boomers" did.

But...you are our hope..and there are many of you here on DU that are seeking alternatives.

Not all Boomers were followers of Hunter Thompson and what you guys hear about it your read the "Activist stuff, and wonder why the Beatles were popular and what Elvis was all about and why folks were so much into agitating. Not all Boomers were what the Media "in retrospect" portrayed them as. And most Boomers weren't assaulted night and day with the "MEDIA..IN YOUR FACE FOLLOWING YOU SCREAMING ADVERTISING MESSAGES 24/7." So in fact if I was 20 Something, I would have to cope by "tuning out the sound and the messages."

Folks in each generation find their space. I think Boomers found some space but even many didn't fit it with the more Agressive of their generation and NOW are finding their voice but we had a "script" we could follow of "commonality."

I don't want to seem "preachy." But, I'm so glad you posted this. It's really good to read and understand what you are saying...

Many hear ya...from all ages.

:-)'s

[Tafiti]

105. Politics has become somewhat of a taboo.

It's almost to the point where you can't even bring it up. If I, for instance, start in on a political discussion point, it's almost as if people are like, "Oh God. Here we go. Can we not talk about this?" It's like a buzzkill, ruining people's fun. It's too tempting for people to not care. A couple liberal friends say things like this to me, and explain that it's because they just "need a break" because the mental exhaustion turns into physical exhaustion, which leads to a mild depression. They'd just rather not deal with it.

[all.of.me]

91. god, that is depressing!

i had a couple more ideas, though.

us rich kids were also rebelling against money. we poo-poo'ed the money we were raised with, some of us were disowned, some of us ultimately switched around and bought into it. but money and materialism were the enemy, unlike what you say of today's kids.

we wanted to replace materialism with spirituality. i don't see a huge audience for that in the present, either. well, there is, but it's coming from corporate types - they want out of the rat race, so seek shelter in spiritual retreats, etc. maybe these are the old hippies who sold out! hahaha

i don't know, but the complacency is depressing.

[Tafiti]

111. I think you're right.

I think there will always be those who rebel against the money they were raised with - I witnessed a few hippies in college, who, come to find out, come from really wealthy families.

But the problem of complacency is worse than ever, I'm afraid. I loathe the phrase, "everything happens for a reason", which I hear a lot from people my age. All idealism is lost - they just aspire for the good life - go to school, get a job in some corporate office, make good money, get a wife, buy a big house in the suburbs, complete with a swimming pool and a three-car garage with two SUVs and sports car, make more money, retire, get a condo on the beach in Florida, soak it all up, die, believing all the while that God is good, and all is as it should be. It's the comfort of the status quo (for those who are already comfortable). The truth is often uncomfortable, so if they see it, they quickly look away.

[AnnInLa]

78. 52 year old activist checking in here too..

When I attended the 3,000 people protest against the inauguration of GWB* in New Orleans, was surprised to find that the whole thing had been organized, not by youngsters, but mostly by more-mature people. Many youngsters came out for the march, but there were more oldsters there. Having done this protesting once before in my extreme youth, I was kinda upset about the absense of the youth activists. Why should my age and above have to do it again? My 3 kids, age 32, 29, 27 are not interested in protesting, they think it is a waste of time....they are Dem voters, but not activists. My daughter even told me I needed to see a psychiatrist because I was "too close" to the problem... I needed to distance myself... I take things too seriously... she is worried about my mental health. My response was not printable here.

"Youth is wasted on the young" IMHO

[geniph]

80. Yep. I'm 45, my husband's 55,

and we're among the youngsters in our very active legislative district Democratic organization. I worry about it a lot. I worry about who will be manning polling places, too - those are all old folks. The elections supervisors, in particular, the ones who've been doing it forever, and who really know how things should work, are like a hundred years old.

On the other hand, I also see the activism in some of the kids my stepsons' ages, and feel encouraged by that.

[watercolors]

85. Became politically active

in college in 1959, member of young Dems at U of Mass. Worked hard for Kennedy. I was married, mother of 3, Husband was also in college on G>I. Bill. I surely hope we get the younger generation moving and interested in their government soon! I think it begins at home, I come from a political family, granted gramps was only the mayor in town and uncles councilmen. I certainly made my children aware of their obligations to vote, I am happy to have two grandsons in college now who were active in last years election. I'm hopeful at times.

[Coexist]

87. I like my grays. But seriously, when I went to my MoveOn meeting

the organizer was a young twenty-something and the rest of us were over 35. However, I (and one other mom) brought our teenage daughters. So maybe we're busy raising the next generation?

Also, when I was in college - things weren't so bad. I mean, when all you can bitch about is the extinction of owls, you don't draw a big crowd. We are out of practice.

I actually got an email from Planned Parenthood for a young activist training to be held in Orlando. My daughter will be away at camp, so maybe MoveOnPAC and other organizations are getting your message.

We can only hope!

(edited twice for not paying attention during spellcheck.)

[KoKo]

98. LOL's We had Kerry Activists who came to "train us" to do canvassing

and they were maybe 25 at the oldest. They were trying to whip up the crowd but didn't understand that we knew what we were doing. They were not from Move.On. but from one of Kerry's "youth groups."

It was a little OTT...:D

[nickgutierrez]

88. Show me.

I turned 21 a few months ago - the most I've done is participated in a few pre-war protests. How do I get from there to ass-kicking and organizing?

[WLKjr]

93. I would also like to be taught this too.

[Coexist]

94. Well, you can go to the young activist training in Orlando!

[WLKjr]

97. if I had $$$ and out of school, I would probably go

November can't get here fast enough.

[blue neen]

95. Among my son's group of friends (ages 20-23), I have seen reluctance

to be involved in politics since the re-coronation of Bush. They were all very motivated to vote in November, and some of them did work on the campaign.

One thing for sure that disillusioned them--they feel like the election was stolen; that they made sure to register to vote and drove home from Pittsburgh that day so they could vote in their home precincts and all for naught. For many of them this was their first experience with voting. Everyone stayed up to watch election returns and watched the debacle that would become the new "Ohio" (where are CSNY when you need them?). They felt sicker than the rest of us because they were more naive.

The older generations have already lived through the 60's and Nixon and Iran-Contra. Hell, my son says his earliest memory is of me shooting rubber bands at the TV set every time Reagan was on! This was the 20 somethings first experience with the REAL state of politics.

They feel as helpless as we do, and I don't know what to do about it.
All we can do is keep trying.

Thanks.

[ScreamingMeemie]

99. Ahhhh...You have not met my daughter, William. Nicole is a fledgling

activist (eligible to vote this next presidential election) Her wheels are set in motion. I find that we, as a group-moderates, progressives, etc-, are at fault for not taking these young people seriously. I look at the patronizing looks my daughter receives as she attempts to converse with even Dems around her. It is my fear that we are just noticing those young people who would be in the room with us...if we'd only allow them.

[Career Prole]

100. Damn, you're only 33?!?!?!

&%#@ing punk!
:D

[ReadTomPaine]

101. Older active Dem party members, why are younger activists being shut out?

While I fall into the older activist category mentioned here, I’ve heard a number of complaints that younger activists are shut out of steering and decision making roles despite having considerable skills, contacts and contributions to make, even after putting in the time to show good faith. Many have talked about this right here on your thread.

Why does this seem to be the case for so many, and why is it so difficult to get a living wage out of working in this field for the left, when the right seems to make it a reasonable career path? If the Dem party can out raise the GOP in a presidential election, why can’t they pay their representatives as well or better than the GOP?

This answers another question. More people will make time to for progressive activism in their careers when it can support them with some semblance of an income. No one should have to choose between putting food on the table and working for the Democratic Party.

Here’s an older, sharper piece I wrote about this subject that actually references you, Will.

Purse-strings, Progressives and Politics
Have you ever stopped for a moment and wondered why Democratic Underground is so very popular? Why it seems so very central to grass-roots progressive Democratic activism? Have you noticed how often the truly active, vital liberal movements and causes have to pass a hat around and beg for money when they are fighting for things that seem so critically important to our future?

If you want an answer and a slap in the face at the same time, just try to get a job on the inside of the party or at a mainstream Democratic organization.

Are you a renowned writer? I don’t care, sweep the floor.
Are you a talented photographer? Too bad, work the phones.
Do you shoot film and write music? That’s nice, go and get us lunch.
Are you a ballsy young journalist with a sharp eye for news? Interesting. Go and make these copies.

Yes, it really is that bad and they expect you to work for free even though we raise more money than they do.

When the conservative movement sees an outspoken, effective messenger in their midst, they’re embraced immediately. In many cases they don’t even have to *ask* they are approached and made an offer. A place is made for them. They are given a chance to use their abilities for the benefit of the GOP’s goals and, this is most critical, they are *rewarded* with a comfortable salary and plenty of options. Those who do well are given an immediate career path upwards. Not surprisingly, it’s become quite popular, even for moderates, to take that route. Why? Because it’s a *viable* one. It’s not a lifestyle hit, it’s an upgrade. There is an unending line of effective communicators all of whom are pro GOP in some way or another.

Now where exactly, is the liberal progressive counterpart to this?

Why does William Pitt eat Spaghetti-O’s?

Simply put, every talented liberal with skills to contribute to the Democratic message should have a comfortable, secure job from a party-related source if they desire one. It should be *profitable* to be a liberal, not a sacrifice. We shouldn’t have to go lone-wolf or beg for money, it’s a stinging humiliation that we have to do so when so many of us are tremendously wealthy. It hurts the party very badly.

Conservatives pump money into their causes like they are paying tithes, and it shows. Our funding tends to go upwards. Can you image what loyalty it would inspire among the rank-and-file if outspoken, talented communicators could put their kids through college making our message? It would transform the party, and maybe that’s the problem. We are shut out. Donna Brazile gets the check, and uses it to go have dinner with Karl Rove. They don’t eat pasta out of can.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2671434#2672333

[gate of the sun]

104. Will my son is 22

and very involved with his friends in Santa Cruz California in reading tons of political books and reading Adbusters. They get together and talk and bring up discussions at parties. My son emails me for information to write papers that are politically charged and gets A's. Yet for all of this my son is depressed and feels he has no future, he feels that he and his friends can make no difference. He feels with the politics, the enviromental issue's, economics etc. etc that he has very little chance at a positive future. I set him out on this path and in some ways I feel sad about it, it has really affected my son in a deep and profound way. I don't know how to help him now...... I am open to advise ,how do we get these kids involved? HOw do we give these boys hope?

[blue neen]

112. I know where you're coming from (see post #95).

How DO we give these young people hope? They're smart kids, they can see what's REALLY going on. And try as we might, they can see through us too, and see that we don't have the answers either.

These young people hate George Bush, hate his policies and lack of policies, yet feel hopeless to do anything about it. This is basically the instant gratification generation, and they sure as hell didn't get that in Nov. 2004.

On edit: In 2004 Howard Dean definitely had an effect on the young people. They stood up and paid attention to his message. I definitely respect that aspect of his campaign.

[NuttyFluffers]

155. i take umbrage w/ insta-gratification label on my generation.

since the inception of our political awareness we've been given nothing but problems and seeming hopelessness. we're the kids who grew up on CFCs killing our ozone, landfills smothering our earth, challenger blowing up, the plagues of crack, aids, crank, war on drugs, tech bubble (read: your future went to china and india, tough titty), complete destruction of business trust, mega-mergers, endless amts. of divorce (having to fight to redefine family from the child-side of things), homogenization of culture into pop-shite (essentially business trying to divest youth of their search for identity), cold war statis turning into post cold war confusion, etc. sure, every generation has its struggles, but other generations could single it out and actively fight it. our problems are generally nebulous, obscure, insidiously intertwined with all that comprises our society. there's no real fingerpointing "that's the enemy! let's get 'im," except the lies fed to us by our rulers. we are jaded to the extreme. y'know, i think we're the cusp of generations that actually don't care about nuclear holocaust as some imminent threat. it doesn't feel real to us. in our darker moods, it feels almost like an overdue cleansing.

all we got out of this "instant gratification" is a whole shitload of problems, mostly made by 'adults' from our childhood perspective, and often fought against only halfed-assed while we grew up. we are a bitter and disenchanted generation. all around us is a gilded cage and we are in one hand expected to be grateful that it's gilded, and thus viewed as spoiled, and in the other blamed for not escaping the cage, comprised of a network of problems, and one noticeably not already fixed by the adults when they were in control. that's why you notice a fatalism, a hopelessness, among many in my generation. there's little in this society that we really find redeemable. in escapism, in sloth, in acceding to the course of events we are passively letting the whole thing fall down, in letting entropy take its course. our act of rebellion is to sit back and enjoy the fruits of life, scramble to survive, put no effort into anything, and listen to the last gasps of the monster. death by not lifting a finger, except to escape when the time comes.

from so many of my friends and acquaintences around my age i find this similar attitude. whereas older generations wants to actively move to fix, to repair, to renew the system, you have new generations ready to let the whole thing decay, slide into irreparable despair, to essentially, die. until you find a way of proving to us that the system works, and is repairable, we don't believe you -- and we'll continue our slow, methodical, imperceptible, and wholly invincible method of letting entropy take its course. it looks like we don't care, and we may even say to your face that we don't care, but we really do and are frustrated beyond words. we are acting out the last act of defiance, and with it our self-destruction. we'll take this monster with us to our graves, and to hell with our reputation to past and future generations. with inaction we can end what all that action hasn't. and from the ashes maybe hope can spring anew.

that's the saddest thing you of the older generations have to deal with -- your children find everything now worthless and hopeless. we have one group of psychos gleefully walking into self-destruction and another group so disillusioned that they are willing to let it run its course. 2006 is the last time 'the system' will be believed in. that's how important it is to 'make it work' this time.

[blue neen]

164. You explained much more eloquently than I ever could why your

generation feels the way that it does.

And I feel no judgement about instant gratification other than your parents (me included) helped to create the situation.

Please stay involved. We need you. We haven't found a way of proving to you that the system works, because right now it's not working for us either.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. :hi:

[NuttyFluffers]

165. we really feel bad for our parents, btw.

they tried so hard when they were young to change things. it's just we all get caught up in life. some became caught up in the 80's 'greed is good' meme; others felt like the world waltzed on by while they were just ready to fix everything, leaving some to cling to a past long gone, and others leaving their past jaded.

now you have children who feel empathy for our parents' optimism, but sadness for their seeming naivete. that's a weird place to be, suddenly feeling like the grown up half the time as everyone's parents were trying to track a new path of life, family, civic duty, careers. and we do feel bad that the end result is a seemingly apathetic, pessimistic, wholly disenchanted generation. you don't deserve the guilt of 'giving' hopelessness to us, but so many parents look askance about "where did we go wrong." the world is wrong, as it stands now -- at least to the strong ideals parents have instilled in us. in essence you did right, but deprived the 'ignorance is bliss' factor from us. basically, our innocence died early, out of necessity of a rapidly cruel, confusing, and dangerous world. but as you read in one of voltaire's short story (i forget the name), the more you know of the world, the more unhappy you become, but wouldn't trade that knowledge for bliss.

awareness comes with a price. that's why you find plenty of us wanting to run in the other direction. many want a moment's peace before we have to be the caretakers of this broken world.

[blue neen]

166. That seems like a good explanation of how my 21 year old must feel.

...that the awareness comes with a price. He seems to be taking that moment's peace before he becomes a caretaker of the world (and of his parents--that has to be a daunting prospect because he is an only child).

[bpilgrim]

106. Start the Draft.

that coupled with all the free time the unemployed or school aged youth have will definitely start a fire.

peace

[The Straight Story]

107. It's because you're old and ugly, you need a supermodel

to spice it up and get the young folks in there :)

Seriously though - Most the younger people I know are busy with kids, work, keeping the house up, sports, et al. They are also online and up on things quite a bit, so there is no reason for them to go hear someone tell them what they already probably feel (even if they don't know the fullness of the problem and it's depths).

Why drive somewhere to listen to someone in a smoke free place when they can have a beer, light up a cigar, and read the same information at home in their undies?

Of course, I am probably way off on it all. Maybe it is the meeting place. Try campuses and coffee houses. I dunno, just rambling like the old man (39) that I am :)

[grasswire]

108. from where I sit..........

....I see a whole lotta thirty somethings who really do have time to give to political activism if they would only give up some of the Utne Reader lifestyle and get in the trenches. The Republic will be saved through personal SACRIFICE.

I believe sacrifice is the essential ingredient Americans can't yet summon up. It's the cousin of risk and the daughter of vulnerability.

Latte lifestyles, the latest movies, the idolatry of children, the elevation of food to art, pets-as-children, and even personal training and hobbies are not the stuff of those who would stay free. Sadly, there are a thousand interests we put before our love of America.

[marions ghost]

116. you know sometimes tho...

it gets awfully tiring having to "save the Republic through personal sacrifice." Although I'm among the boomers, I understand the apathy of the younger generations somewhat. I was active earlier but eventually tired of political stuff, especially after I saw at close range the sleazy shenanigans of a couple of local political races. The only reason I'm here now is because I know we are in serious bad terrible trouble in this country and I'm just too stubborn to be steamrolled by the Juggernaut without a fight. But if I felt I had any choice I'd love to just live my life without having to shoulder so much responsibility trying to "save" everything from those who want to exploit, ravage and kill. I'd rather be working on building and creating, than "saving." I'd like to be focusing on some personal goals. Give me the latte lifestyle. I want to live, not fight all my life. However -- I just can't seem to DO the ostrich thing after what we have witnessed in recent years in America. I know for a fact there is no place to hide. It's an all-hands-on-deck emergency. We have to turn this ship around.

You know, we are all taught that we have certain inalienable rights in this country--we are told this like it's really something we can count on for the rest of our lives. It is incredibly disturbing to realize that you have been lied to about the most fundamental rights we take for granted. This is depressing to a paralyzing degree when you first understand the truth of this and how it impacts your life. It also can cause a deep sense of resentment and betrayal. Hard to keep a love of America going strong some days. So I'm not sure an appeal to patriotism is going to fire up a younger generation that's in basic survival mode. Nor does it help to imply guilt towards them for merely following the trends of the day. The younger generations came out of the woodwork to vote for Kerry and that's a start. I think there needs to be a different approach. This discussion going on here is fruitful for getting a picture of what that might look like.

[grasswire]

128. we all have to realize...

...that life in America (and some other parts of the world) in the last fifty years has been the aberration, not the norm. Relatively peaceful, relatively prosperous. It is an aberration. Every other people, every other era, and even every other era in American history has lived in intermittent desperate fear and/or deprivation.

So maybe our feeling of entitlement is wholly bogus, as it has apparently rendered us weak and pathetic.

But love of America? Perhaps I didn't communicate clearly what that is -- it's love of our founding principles, not of "patriotism", not of government. Love of the Bill of Rights, love of due process and rules of evidence, love of one man-one vote, love of civil liberties and equality under the law, love of an unfettered press and a free and independent judiciary.

That's worth sacrificing for. That's worth defending. That's worth many times over the latte lifestyle. Don't want to sacrifice for those bedrock principles? Then you deserve whatever despotism comes.

(Of course, peak oil will change everything before long. The world will be turned upside down. Sacrifices will not be choices; they'll be forced on us all.)

[marions ghost]

141. I don't think a feeling of entitlement is bogus--it all

depends what you feel entitled TO. I don't think it's greedy to feel entitled to:

--a federal government that works for the people, not for corporations. A federal government that deals in truth, not lies.
--a local political and business community that is not corrupt (very difficult to come by these days)
--clean air, water, environment, etc
--equal access to healthcare
--decent public schools with good teachers
--freedom of expression
--a functional and fair election system
--a responsible and independent media
--as you say, an independent judiciary (totally gone)
--life without misbegotten foreign wars of imperialism which take lives literally, while sucking money and resources out of our country ....
those are some of the BIG things we should feel entitled to.

These entitlements are now threatened in America--but I want them back. I think a lot of younger people are dismayed to have to suddenly start fighting for the things they thought they had...even the "founding principles" you list seem to be abstractions these days. I tend to agree that the conservatives have been better at selling their Gods of Neverending Consumption and Entitlement to Things, rather than entitlement to principles.

[grasswire]

142. I didn't say it was greedy. It isn't.....

...greedy to *feel* entitled to the things on your list.

But, as I was trying to point out, it's unrealistic, considering the history of the world and the nature of humans. The lust of some humans for money and power is always making its own war against the quality of life the people desire. That lust, when its holders seize governmental powers, is something the people must fight. And because there are always people who lust for money and power, the fight is never over. The fight may ebb and flo, but it is NEVER OVER. Every generation or every second generation must do the same battle.

Apathy is our enemy. Self pity about our "plight" is our enemy, if it leads to apathy.

Bill Clinton was the closest thing we've had to a leader who was working for your list of entitlements. So here we are. Should younger people choose apathy in their disillusionment; their peek at the dark side of human nature? Or should they choose to stand for something, and put us back on the road to enlightenment for another generation?

[Nevernose]

143. Not much on that list requires "sacrifice" Idolatry of children?

-The latest movie costs five bucks for a matinee. I don't buy over-priced popcorn and soda anyway, and go to the dollar store half the time.

-I'm not sure what you mean by the "idolatry of children." I know that there hasn't been a clean-up event, rally, protest, meeting, phone bank, etc. that my kid hasn't been to -- we even watch the news together, including Faux. In fact, at these events she often works harder than many of the adults! I take her along because I idolize her, and therefore think it's important to teach her that activism and critical thinking are vital parts of life. Anyone not participating because of their kids is, IMO, lazy and just making excuse, and really shouldn't be blamed on doting too much.

-I love a good meal. I can't usually afford expensive restaraunts, but there's not much served at them that I can't cook at home for a tenth the cost.

-The pets-as-chilfren thing is weird as hell. But at least in the case of dogs, there's not much activism that can't be performed w/o Fido in tow.

-Okay, on the latte and the personal training, you've got me. There's some kind of weird burgeosie mentality running around these days. That I find absoultely appaling. Anyone paying eight bucks for a coffee is probably not someone who has involuntarily gone a week without food.

If you've read this far, thanks. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that I don't believe self-sacrifice is really the missing link here. I think it's pure, unadulterated apathy and intellectual laziness.

[Ladyhawk]

109. I'm one of the youngest people to attend political meetings in my town.

As I've tried to participate more and more, I've discovered that the older people who hold all the power don't want to listen to me. I feel completely out of step with many of them.

I tried to attend a series called "From Violence to Wholeness" that included many of the same people who attend the peace vigil and Democratic Club meetings. I went twice to a FVTW meeting and learned that most of the people who attended don't accept me as I am. Same story as with my family; different politics.

During the first meeting, I had to defend my point of view as the lone atheist. There were other atheists there, but they didn't say anything. During the second meeting, I was ragged on because I watch violent movies like Lord of the Rings and play violent video games. It was a stupid, petty disagreement, but almost all the people there were against me and said some pretty hurtful things. I never went back.

What a huge let-down.

Also, I've noticed that in the peace meetings and Dem Club meetings, I'm not allowed to speak very often. I don't feel welcome. Most of the time I basically keep my mouth shut during the entire meeting. I might as well not even go. :shrug: If the older people make younger people feel superfluous, no wonder younger people don't show. I've tried for a couple of years now and haven't made much headway.

I'm 37 years old. Not that young, but apparently young enough that my opinions don't mean much to the older generation. If they don't show me a little bit of respect, if they are so out-of-step with the younger generation, why should I become involved? I think it would be easier to start a new club of younger folks.

[XemaSab]

114. Wait, wait!

I thought the Deaniacs were supposed to be a bunch of 18 year-olds!

Are you saying that the media has fed me lies?

[foo_bar]

115. that's because it was Concord

It makes Lexington look like a babystroller metropolis.

[Freddie Stubbs]

120. You probably won't like this answer, but

Young people today just aren't as liberal as young people were a generation ago.

There are a lot more young people who are active Republicans than there used to be. When was in college in early 90's, there about twice as many people in the College Democrats than in the College Republicans. My group's faculty advisor once remarked that he was surprised by that, because years ago there were a lot few Republicans. Today there organization have roughly the same number of members.

Many young people are moderates, and get turned off by some of the issues that the far-left is pushing. They're pro-choice, but they also believe in parental notification rules and are leary of partial-birth abortion. They don't think that Fidel Castro is a hero. These people aren't driven to be active Republicans, they just don't participate in Democratic politics.

[Melissa G]

121. It's the cycle... Repub's are in control now...

So they are imprinting much of the youth. Not My 10 and 12 year old daughters though... I've been dragging them to rallies and protests since before they were six months old. I've had them on stage talking to crowds of over 3000...testifing before state lege committees 'til early in the morning etc....I'm raising my share of the next generation right!
The creepy thing is, that in classrooms, instead of 1 number- bearing president of USA picture in the office hallway or cafeteria there are now individual pictures in all the classrooms that say G***W*B*** REPUBLICAN. NOT PREZ,But REPUBLICAN... The part of me that agrees that R is ALL B*** is, finds the wording appropriate. The part that see this as the insidious Rovian propaganda that says R's are winners and D's are losers IS EXTREMELY agitated!

[eridani]

123. This reminds me of the industrial scientific work force

It isn't just politics. A couple of years ago, Chemical and Engineering News published a survey of scientists and engineers active in industrial research. Divided into age quartiles, the biggest quartile was ages 40-50, second biggest 50-60, third biggest everyone over 60, and bringing up the rear 20-40.

[PittLib]

124. I'm hoping to prove you wrong next week ...

though I know you have a serious point. The mayoral race here in Pittsburgh is becoming "young vs. old". One candidate is a councilman who has name recognition and a strong following with the elderly (so much so he actually passed out pill organizers with his name on them)- the other, also a councilman, has a plan for revitalizing this city (which needs it badly) and a strong youth following. I'll be busting my 30 year-old ass for the next week to put him in office. This race is also a great example of machine vs. non-machine politicians. I don't think young people truly understand how politics effect every aspect of their lives ... it takes a little life experience. People in countries with oppressive governments and/or political turmoil seem to be so much more savvy, and it seems that we've become complacent in our relative comfort.

[EC]

126. I disagree..

We over 50's have the time in the middle of the week to go to events and participate, where as the younger ones have families to feed and help with homework etc...Don't worry, the younger ones pull their weight at the times when it counts...they were all over here when the election got close and we needed feet on the ground pounding pavement. They were out every weekend demonstrating and working hard, just as us over 50's did when we were younger and the then oldsters were holding down the fort through the week and off election times....Look at all the young people here alone, that should ease your fears about the Democratic Party dying off...

[leftofthedial]

130. I'm 164 years old

when I was kid, walking ten miles through the snow to a Will Pitt speech, there were plenty of youngsters.

But these whippersnappers today, they just want to skateboard and play video games.

Seriously . . .

Is it a kind of inbred cynicism? Have they looked around, seen no hope for anything but a pointless life as a serf in a corporate feudalism and said fuck it?

Or are they lazy?

Given that almost all my 17-year-old daughter's friends hate Bush and the neocon agenda--and are amazingly well-informed about the issues, I refuse to believe that there is no hope for an enlightened future.

BUT, most of my friends' kids are now mid-20's to early 30's (my ex and I practiced A LOT and for A LONG TIME before breeding) and they are almost all ignorant, apathetic, spoiled, lazy, uninquisitive and self-absorbed. They also seem to have trouble extrapolating results from the facts with which they are faced. Most of them seem to have a perpetual chip on their shoulder, but seem not to be able to articulate why or to do anything about it. Is there such a thing as a "tweener" generation?

[demodonkey]

131. Hey Will, I was at an event tonight that gave me some hope...

Local High School Young Democrat Club had a Coffee House for Fair Trade / Equal Exchange. The kids served the coffee, had bands play, did a Powerpoint presentation on the issue, and ran a bake sale.

None of these kids are old enough to enter a voting booth yet, but a lot of them told me they have already worked the polls for candidates or served as pollwatchers.

And the best thing for me was -- every single one of them I talked to quickly "got it" about the stolen election AND about the urgency of the voting machine issue!

Sadly, it was the thirtysomething (max) looking faculty adviser who didn't seem as worried about the voting issues... he said he "knew about it"... but... :eyes:

[Sugarbleus]

133. I'm an oldie and I think your ideas are SPOT ON.

We over-the-hill types will not long remain with you. I'm trying to encourage, no, URGE my daughters and grandson to PAY ATTENTION to the politics and the history going on around them; to likewise understand and claim for themselves the attitude of pro-Human Rights and pro-civilization ideals. This country has become quite UNcivilized in it's attitudes and edicts. Encouraging my offspring is for THEIR good and for the good of the generations to come, as the years tick by.

I live in a mostly liberal University town so the activists here are largely youthful. Occassionally I meet up with a senior and invariably they LOVE my bumper stickers; often verbalizing, in colorful language, their total discontent with this administration. I adore those encounters. :)

Requiring under 45 yo folk to research US/world HISTORY, in my view, is ESSENTIAL. It sets the tone, the background info, for where we've come from and where the hell we are going, or should go.

Good Post Will... Go get 'em youngins'

[mitchtv]

134. I have been raging about this for a while

We had a good crowd at the Move on Nukular option demo for our small city, well over 150 , but not a soul under 45 most over 55(like Me). It is saddening and worrisome

[Coexist]

136. So we need to have older, more experienced activists

putting together a handbook and have training sessions.
I am serious. It is much easier to stand on the shoulders of giants than to build a new ladder every time.

We could work through an established progressive organization. Dean is a very grassroots kind of guy - this is right up his alley. MoveOn is the same.

How about PDA having meetups across the country to discuss/set this up. Someone could contact Planned Parenthood and find out what the structure of their plan is - see if it has been successful and if it has, use it as a model.

We can do more than talk about this, you know.

[Skittles]

137. dissent is being squashed

it's not the it used to be when the youngsters felt free to protest - now they're afraid of jail, pepper spray, being kicked out of church......it really sucks now.

[BlueIris]

139. I'm 25. Always the youngest person in any room of "The Involved."

Can't get any of my former friends of the same age off their lazy, complacent, I-have-a-stable-job-and-an-advanced-degree-so-none-of-this-is-my-fault-it-won't-affect-me-blah-blah-Iris-is-a-weirdo asses. It's beyond frustrating.

[Jo March]

140. The youth are getting out there

Read this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1464430

And there are more stories like that. I think about the students who stood in front of the military recruiting table that was set up at the school's career day.

The younger people are getting organized and active.

[demo dutch]

144. Not enough of them though!

[Jo March]

145. Well, we wouldn't really hear much about it even if they were

getting out there by the hundreds of thousands, would we? Nope. Just a mention of "several hundred poorly-organized dissidents" that's all.

[AliceWonderland]

146. The young folks seem to favour different forms of activity

I have noticed, living in Boulder CO, that the older activists in this community are the ones involved in traditional party politics. It's not that there aren't many younger (in some cases, quite young) activists. It's that they're 1)not drawn to the Democratic party for reasons I feel are obvious and 2)they prefer alternate forms of activism, often involving grassroots media/technology. I've seen some of the smartest, most committed, and most media-savvy kids under 20. Some truly crackerjack young people...they just channel their energy in different directions, and tend to be cynical about party politics.

I noticed the same thing when I lived in NYC. The old guard ran the community radio station WBAI, for example, and was mired in battles over race/class/gender...while the young folks preferred outlets like Indymedia.

Just a thought.

[Coexist]

147. Notes from a Civil Rights activist on training - fascinating stuff

http://www.crmvet.org/info/nv.htm
snip

How to demonstrate. Today almost everyone believes (incorrectly) that they know how to demonstrate. But it was not always so. When the direct-action phase of the Civil Rights Movement began in 1960, almost two decades of "McCarthyite" repression had crippled, — had driven underground, — most of a political generation. So in the early years of the Civil Rights Movement many people who participated in direct- action, — particularly in the South and mid- West, — had never even seen a picket-line, much less been on one; or a sit-in, or a Freedom Ride, or a mass march.
And the fact is that even today there are more effective and less effective ways to organize, lead, and participate in protest; and that direct-action has an element of craft to it that can, — and should, — be learned.


Rite of passage. In the early years, before the Civil Rights Movement grew into a mass movement, we really were small bands of brothers and sisters in a hostile land. The training was something we all shared, and participating in the rough & tumble of a full-blown non-violent training session forged mutual confidence, and acted as a rite-of-passage initiating new members into the circle of trust.

The songs.
The songs elevated our courage,
The songs bonded us together,
The songs forged our discipline,
The songs shielded us from hate,
The songs protected us from danger,
And the songs kept us sane.
In terms of political and moral effectiveness, group singing is to group chanting, as an elephant is to a mouse. But songs have to be learned. Moreover, the kind of singing that (trained) protesters do as an act of solidarity in the face of hatred and danger is very different from performance singing done on stage or in school. And just as a choir has to practice, so too do demonstrators. One of the reasons that the singing on modern mass marches is so pathetic and demoralizing is that no one's been doing any training or practice.

[Coexist]

162. Common Cause is offering training, too!

http://www.commoncause.org/RSVPforPaperTrailLobbyDays

If you have never lobbied before, have no worries. It's fun! Besides, we're planning a training session on the morning of June 9, where you'll get all the information you'll need to feel like an old pro. We will also help you find lodging for your visit and there's a Capitol Hill party planned for Thursday night, too, with special guests.

[Misunderestimator]

148. You're only 33!

*gasp*... psst... my hair's not grey yet... :P

[seventythree]

149. excellent post and sooo true

I just returned from lunch where I said to the woman who took the seat I just gave up, with my help, of course, "I am really getting too old to fight." Our job, now, is to train up the next generation of fighters. We are the fighting boomers from the 60's -- our parents, by in large, weren't with us, then, so we had to teach ourselves. Problem is, it seems like we are always standing alone --then, the older generation didn't join us, and now, the younger one isn't (broad brush, I know, there are many exceptions). Our parents had the memories of patriotic support for WWII standing in their way -- had we not been drafted in an unjustified war, would we have been different? Is that what it will take?

[liontamer]

150. don't worry, I'm 25 and I know lots of activists my age and younger

Besides a lot of prominent conservatives are old. If our old and in charge go, there's will go 10 years earlier due to unhealthy amounts of rage. :)

[WilliamPitt]

151. .

[DFLer4edu]

152. My thoughts at 17

I worked for the first time on a political campaign during the 2004 presidential election. I volunteered a number of times in the Kerry phone banks and to my surprise the crowd was by far much older than I would have thought. The organizers were just out of college, but of the volunteers I was the only one under 30, maybe even 35. Most were well over 40.
There exists a generation (my generation) which has become politically alert during the Bush administration. The vast majority of us who pay attention to politics are democratic and even the republicans I know aren't thrilled with Bush.
As for why you're not seeing any young people in the crowd it is because you're giving a speech. I have read a lot of your posts, they are generally some of the more interesting ones, but I would never go to see you give a speech. I would maybe go to see a famous or less famous but interesting political figure give a speech, but in general I've got better things to do than listen to you give a speech. It's nothing personal, but that's the way it is.

On a related note I don't really think the democratic party does anything to get the attention of the younger generations. In 2004 I didn't see a damn thing directly targeted at students to get them out to vote or to get them to work for the Kerry campaign. Small wonder we showed up in such small numbers. It's a pity too, because we voted overwhelming democratic and there are many more who would vote democratic.

In 2006 I'll be eligible to vote for the first time. I'll vote, and I'll vote democratic, but the democratic party will have done absolutely nothing to inspire me to vote. It's the republicans who will do that. And although that gets out the most politically active, animosity for the other side isn't going to get out the majority of young people.

[NewJeffCT]

163. good points

There seems to be a whole generation missing from our "activists" - there is a dearth of people between the ages of 20-40.

I'm 38 years old and know of nobody - Republican or Democrat - who is really into politics, protesting, or being an activist. I haven't really known anybody since college. I gave money to various political causes for the first time in 2004, but I did not get out & protest besides writing LTTEs. Between balancing my home life with my wife & 2 year old daughter, work, the cultural differences between my family & my wife's family, selling our old home & moving to a new home, etc, I barely have time to sleep, let alone protest and my work has honestly not been up to snuff since my daughter was born.

I think for the people in my generation who grew up after Watergate & Vietnam, there was no one or two big national issues to get us off our butts to protest. Sure, Reagan was a disaster for anybody that wasn't very wealthy, and Iran-Contra was worse than Watergate, but after Watergate the Republicans started getting their tentacles into the media and instead of mass impeachment of top officials because of Iran-Contra, Ollie North wraps himself in the flag and is manufactured into a national hero for criminal behavior.

And, there are exceptions like Will Pitt, but there really is a dearth of "talent" waiting in the wings. Maybe, like the 17 year old poster above indicated, Iraq & the corruption of Bush/Cheney will get the under 20 folks more active. But, the Republican tentacles that started into action after Watergate now have a stranglehold on the media. So, it will take different methods.

[Maine-ah]

154. you come close

why don't you come to Maine?

Nobody comes to Maine, and this past election it was pretty close. I think (at least in my area I have noticed) we're losing the democrats. If something isn't done up here, it's possible by the next presidential election, Maine could swing red.

[apple_ridge]

158. Yes! Please come to Portland!

[Maestro]

156. In all honesty

I think many young people are just happy with the status quo. They graduate and receive a nine to five job and go about their merry way. Many times they, subconsciously, simply isolate themselves from the realities of the "other" world. They see the news, but probably ask themselves, "How does this affect me?" They can not make a connection so they become more of an observer than a participant in the political process.

However, those individuals who can make a connection to the unfairness, the unjustness in the world for whatever reason are those that get involved and these usually are older, more experienced people who see the bigger picture. I for one became active at an early age because of early experiences I had with my job, education, my religion, (fundies be damned!), and with my experience in health care.

Hopefully, with more reaching out and discussion, we will reach the younger generations that many times, quite frankly, do not see the connections to their lives and what is happening in the world.

PS: I'm 37 and I have been active politically since I was 25.

[kcwayne]

160. self deleted

deleted

[kcwayne]

161. You have to have something on the line, in 1968 it was the draft

The older people that man the barricades of the activist movement were energized by the draft and civil rights. It set us on a lifetime habit of not trusting the government to act in good faith on any issue. The idea that old white men who stood nothing to lose when they ordered you to the rice paddies in Viet Nam to die, and crowed about protecting freedom with your life while denying it to minorities was just as mind boggling outrageous as Republicans foisting that idiot drooler into the Presidency is today.

The difference is that back then the right wing insanity had a high probability of leading me to an early death. Today, young people's biggest perceived threat is they won't get to see Janet Jackson's left breast on the Super Bowl halftime show.

When the draft is re-instituted and young people are forced to pay the very high price of accepting the right wing's ideology, the generation will be radicalized. But until the pain of following tyrannists is felt, we won't hear a squeak from them.

[RobbinsdaleDem]

167. I know a young activist

My best friend's son is a 19-year-old sophomore at the University of Minnesota. He headed a campus get-out-the-vote group for the November election, attended Camp Wellstone last summer, and has spoken at the MN legislature about FACE (Fair and Clean Elections). This week he's been protesting on campus to keep the General College open. This is a college that accepts students who don't meet the requirements of the other colleges, and it gives them some extra help. The General College is slated to be closed, and he feels strongly about it, because he started in the General College before he was accepted into the Liberal Arts College. This week he's been living in a tent-city, and he participated in a sit-in in the university president's office, an action for which he was arrested along with 6 or 7 other protesters. He's a political science major, and I'm so proud of him.

[Dover]

168. Here's an interesting study that suggests that while party participation

may be shrinking (and activism within them), there is a horizontal growth going on in participation in cause activism which often overlaps with politics. I don't know if this might change the youth vs. older activist numbers, but it is another, broader means to measure activist activities that might be a more accurate reflection of who's participating and how people are defining their politics.

I would certainly like to hear some "outside of the box" ideas for dealing with our "new world order"....a very different place than we had in 60's and with very different tools available.

http://ksghome.harvard.edu/~pnorris/Acrobat/Political%20Activism%20New%20Challenges.pdf

Excerpt:

Citizen-oriented activities, exemplified by voting
participation and party membership, obviously remain important for democracy, but today this
represents an excessively narrow conceptualization of activism that excludes some of the most
common targets of civic engagement which have become conventional and mainstream.
The early literature also drew a clear distinction between ‘conventional’ and ‘protest’
politics, and this terminology often continues to be used today in research. The classic study of
political action in the early 1970s by Barnes and Kasse conceptualized ‘protest’ as the willingness
of citizens to engage dissent, including unofficial strikes, boycotts, petitions, the occupation of
buildings, mass demonstrations, and even acts of political violence
54
. Yet this way of thinking
about activism seems dated today, since it no longer captures the essential features of the
modern repertoires where many of these modes have become mainstream. In particular, during
the height of the 1960s counterculture, demonstrations were often regarded as radical acts
confined to a mélange of small minority of students in alliance with workers, with peaceful
mobilization over civil rights, anti-nuclear, or anti-war protests shading into civil disobedience,
street theatre, ‘sit-ins’, and even violent acts. Yet today demonstrations have become mainstream
and widespread; for example the 1999-2001 World Values Survey indicates that about 40% of the
public have participated in a demonstration in countries such as Sweden, Belgium and the
Netherlands
55
. The proportion of those who have engaged in demonstrations has more than
doubled since the mid-1970s. Similar observations can be made about the widespread practice of
consumer politics, while petitioning has also become far more common
56
.
As a result of these changing repertoires, it seems clearer today to distinguish between
citizen-oriented actions, relating mainly to elections and parties, and cause-oriented repertoires,
which focus attention upon specific issues and policy concerns, exemplified by consumer politics
(buying or boycotting certain products for political or ethical reasons), petitioning, demonstrations,
and protests
57
. The distinction is not water-tight, for example political parties organize mass
demonstrations, and elected representatives are lobbied by constituents about specific policy
issues and community concerns, as much as for individual constituency service. New social
movements often adopt mixed action strategies which combine traditional repertoires, including
lobbying elected representatives and contacting the news media, with a variety of alternative
forms of political expression, including online networking, street protests, and consumer boycotts.
Compared with citizen-oriented actions, the distinctive aspect of cause-oriented repertoires is that
these are most commonly used to pursue specific issues and policy concerns among diverse
targets, both within and also well beyond the electoral arena.

Of course historically many techniques used by cause-oriented activists are not
particularly novel; indeed petitions to parliament are one of the earliest forms of representative
democracy, and, as previous chapters in this Handbook discuss, periodic waves of contentious
politics, radical protest, and vigorous political dissent can be identified throughout Western
democracies
58
. The mid-1950s saw passive resistance techniques used by the civil rights
movement in the US and the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament in Western Europe. Building
upon this, the 1960s experienced the resurgence of direct action with the anti-Vietnam
demonstrations, the student protest movements and social upheaval that swept the streets of
Paris, Tokyo and London. New social movements expanded, particularly those concerned about
women’s equality, nuclear power, anti-war, and the environment. The early 1970s saw the use of
economic boycotts directed against apartheid in South Africa, and the adoption of more
aggressive industrial action by trade unions, including strikes, occupations, and blockades,
occasionally accompanied by arson, damage and violence, directed against Western
governments
59
. Today, collective action through demonstrations has become a generally
accepted way to express political grievances, voice opposition, and challenge authorities
60
.
An important characteristic of cause-oriented repertoires is that these have broadened
towards engaging in ‘consumer’ and ‘life-style’ politics, where the precise dividing line between
the ‘social’ and ‘political’ breaks down even further. These activities are exemplified by volunteer
work at recycling cooperatives, helping at battered women’s shelters, or fundraising for a local
school, as well as protesting at sites for timber logging, boycotting goods made by companies
using sweat shop labor, and purchasing cosmetic products which avoid the use of animal testing.
It could be argued that these types of activities, while having important social and economic
consequences, fall outside of the sphere of the strictly ‘political’ per se. Yet the precise dividing
line between the ‘public’ and the ‘private’ spheres remains controversial, as the feminist literature
has long emphasized
61
. Cause-oriented repertoires aim to reform the law or to influence the
policy process, as well as to alter systematic patterns of social behavior, for example by
establishing bottle bank recycling facilities, battered women’s shelters, and heightening
awareness of energy efficiency. For Inglehart, the process of cultural change lies at the heart of
this development, where the core issues motivating activists have shifted from materialist
concerns, focused on bread-and-butter concerns of jobs, wages and pensions, to greater concern
about post-materialist values, including issues such as globalization, environmentalism,
multiculturalism, and gender equality.
62
In many developing societies, loose and amorphous
networks of community groups and grass-roots voluntary associations often seek direct action
within local communities over basic issues of livelihood, such as access to clean water, the
distribution of agricultural aid, or health care and schools
63
. Issues of identity politics around
issues of ethnicity and sexuality also commonly blur the ‘social’ and the ‘political’. Therefore in
general the older focus on citizenship activities designed to influence elections, government, and public policy-making process within the nation-state, seems unduly limited today, by excluding too much that is commonly understood as broadly ‘political’.

Another defining characteristic of cause-oriented activities is that these are directed
towards parliament and government, but also towards diverse actors in the public, non-profit and
private sectors. A substantial and growing literature has compared case-studies of activism within
international human rights organizations, women’s NGOs, transnational environmental
organizations, the anti-sweatshop and anti-land mines networks, the peace movement, and anti-
globalization and anti-capitalism forces
64
. The targets are often major multinational corporations,
including consumer boycotts of Nike running shoes, McDonald’s hamburgers, and Californian
grapes, as well as protest demonstrations directed against international agencies and
intergovernmental organizations, such as the World Trade Organization, the World Economic
Forum in Davos, and the European Commission
65
. This literature suggests that changes in the
targets of participation reflect the process of globalization and the declining autonomy of the
nation-state, including the core executive, as power has shifted simultaneously towards
intergovernmental organizations like the U.N. and WTO, and down towards regional and local
assemblies
66
. Moreover the ‘shrinkage of the state’ through initiatives such as privatization,
marketization and de-regulation mean that decision-making has flowed away from public bodies
and official government agencies that were directly accountable to elected representatives,
dispersing to a complex variety of non-profit and private agencies operating at local, national and
international levels ...cont'd

[TreasonousBastard]

169. You've got a great point, but...

I'm not sure I want to read almost 150 posts to see if anyone has anything worthwhile to say about this.

I don't know what the answer is, but I have seen the same thing at every event I've been to. Rock the Vote and the other things out there trying to get kids involved may not have had legs enough to keep them involved. Yes, I have seen kids who are involved, but they are the exception, not the rule. And very rare exceptions they are.

And I really worry about the missing 30-somethings who SHOULD be involved.