I'll start -> Real ID = 666 nt

[AVID]

[rawtribe]

1. 616

http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/toronto/story.html?id=702d14ee-4847-4c3d-90ce-46e933232df0

[Deep13]

2. I don't think so.

Ones identity is not private. Why not require positive proof for a license?

[aeolian]

3. Show me your papers, then we'll talk.

:sarcasm:

[Deep13]

7. Isn't that how it is now?

I don't believe either present state law or this national ID thing will require someone always to have ID present, only that ID they do have must comply with national standards. Cops have a right to insist on your identity at a Terry stop. If you have no license or whatever, you must at least tell them your identity. There is no privacy right or 5th Amend. privilege in identity.

[aeolian]

9. So, your argument is that since we're already a little bit down the

road, we might as well take another step?

If I leave my national ID at home, will I be a terrorist?

What if I get one of these ultimate IDs under a fake name? Then, for all intents and purposes, I've just concealed my true identity.

Cops have the authority to ask for your diver's liscence at a traffic stop because you are operating a motor vehicle. They do not have the authority (yet) to simply stop you on the street and demand ID (although, granted, very few people would refuse if a cop asked for ID).

Your driver's licence, although state-issued, does not define your identity, it only certifies you as being allowed to drive a car. A national ID would, effectively, define who you are.

The right to one's self, although not explicitly written, is an implicit fundamental tennant of any free society. As soon as identity is state-issued, freedom dies.

[Deep13]

11. Not exactly.

"If I leave my national ID at home, will I be a terrorist?"

I haven't read the bill and I doubt most members of Congress have. My understanding, however, is that it simply creates national standards for state IDs. So, no, leaving your state ID at home does not make you a terrorist even if the state followed national standards to create it.

"What if I get one of these ultimate IDs under a fake name? Then, for all intents and purposes, I've just concealed my true identity."

That is the case with every fake ID. The purpose of this bill is to make it difficult to to that.

"Cops have the authority to ask for your diver's liscence at a traffic stop because you are operating a motor vehicle. They do not have the authority (yet) to simply stop you on the street and demand ID (although, granted, very few people would refuse if a cop asked for ID)."

Cops have the right to ask for ID at any stop made pursuant to Terry v. Ohio, that is whenever there is reasonable suspicion that an offense is being committed. Simply being in a car does not automatically create the power for cops to stop you and demand ID. Driving a vehicle without a license is a crime. Walking the street without one is not. The cops can request it, but it is not a crime to say you do not have one. As far as I know, nothing in this bill will change that.

"Your driver's licence, although state-issued, does not define your identity, it only certifies you as being allowed to drive a car. A national ID would, effectively, define who you are."

No, a driver's license or state ID in lieu of a driver's license documents who you are. It creates nothing whether issued pursuant to state or federal guidelines.

Of course it is hard to imagine anything that is supported by Congressional Rs not having a sinister purpose.:tinfoilhat:

[aeolian]

14. You and I are basically differing on semantics, then.

"Cops have the right to ask for ID at any stop made pursuant to Terry v. Ohio, that is whenever there is reasonable suspicion that an offense is being committed. Simply being in a car does not automatically create the power for cops to stop you and demand ID. Driving a vehicle without a license is a crime. Walking the street without one is not. The cops can request it, but it is not a crime to say you do not have one."

We're saying the same thing. They can ask for an ID all day, but it's not yet a crime to be without one.




"Of course it is hard to imagine anything that is supported by Congressional Rs not having a sinister purpose. :tinfoilhat: "

I think that sums up the nagging suspicions quite nicely.




My point about state-issued identity (as opposed to a simple identity card) is that the new ID's would be required to get just about any gov't service, enter certain buildings, get on airplanes, cross borders, etc., etc., etc. It's not just a piece of paper that states your name. It effectively becomes your name for all government business.

But that's just me, and I worry about using my SSN and giving out my home address. :tinfoilhat: indeed.

:toast:

[erichzann]

6. Um. Here's why:

http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=18112&c=206

"Proponents are selling the Real ID Act as a fix to the immigration system, when it actually makes thing worse," said Timothy H. Edgar, ACLU Policy Counsel for National Security. "Sadly, Congress did not take the time to carefully consider and review its provisions - if it had, lawmakers would see that the Real ID Act not only denies the persecuted safe haven here, but it would place undue burdens on legal permanent residents and citizens alike. The conferees must reject the Real ID provisions that have been tacked on to the military operations funding measure."

...

The act goes against international law and allows government officials to demand written "corroboration" from those seeking asylum. For instance, a Chinese woman seeking asylum after being forced to have an abortion could be required to obtain proof of her abuse from the doctors who performed the procedure.

Additionally, the Real ID Act would waive all state and federal laws to give the Department of Homeland Security unconditional authority to build barriers along the entire border -- placing private property in the hands of federal agents for a "land grab" for national security purposes.

The act also takes us one step closer to a national ID, and a "show us your papers" society by forcing states to link their databases -- containing every licensed driver’s personal information -- with other states and with Canada and Mexico. The act includes no guidelines as to who will have access to that information.

[Paulie]

10. The problem is the LICENSE

Once you get it, it will be a standardized, MACHINE READABLE ID. So, you go into a bar, they scan it, then sell the information contained on the ID. Not just the number, but your date of birth, real address (no more PO Boxes for judges or cops), height, weight, eye and hair color. To go into a CLUB. Or eventually, a pay toilet.

There are still open questions on what will be the type of machine readable technology. Bar code, magnetic stripe, RFID tag. And then there are other requirements that DHS can just say, without any say from outside DHS, like having a fingerprint or retinal scan embeded in the card in a machine readable format. Now add that in the database. IDENTITY THEFT will be orders of magnitude greater.

It's a freaking BAD idea, and does NOTHING for security.

[Deep13]

12. hmmmm

Could be true. Some places already do that. They make a photo of your license and sell the images to whomever. Ohio licenses already have a magnetic strip on them. They run it through a computer at the airport.

[noonwitch]

4. Ronald Wilson Reagan

There are two beasts. The first one is the 666 beast, the second one is the dragon who is the power behind the first beast, which is more of a figurehead.
Ronald, Wilson, and Reagan each have 6 letters. This beast is specifically given the number:

"Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man; and his number is six hundred threescore and six". Rev. 13:18

Rev. 13 also talks about the mark of the beast that people won't be able to buy or trade without it. The GOP wants to put Pruneface's image on US currency. The second beast is the one to fear (GWB/BFEE/GOP?), the first is just the second's frontman.

He who has an ear, let him hear.

Really, I'm just kidding, but the implication is that the antichrist will find a way to trick the faithful. A lot of conservative christians are ripe for the tricks, too, just as some liberal christians have blind spots about gurus and the occult (as in denying it's existence).

[longship]

5. No More Sky Fairies

A lot of conservative christians are ripe for the tricks, too, just as some liberal christians have blind spots about gurus and the occult (as in denying it's existence).

There are people of all kinds who are ripe for the trick of the existence of a sky fairy who enables immortality. It's all such an obviously cheap trick that it's astounding that there are billions of people who blindly accept it in one of its forms. What's worse is that people would perform all sorts of nefarious things, including actually killing each other, over such foolishness.

I just wish it would all go away.

[Deep13]

8. I thought it was Caesar.

What is that he said? I came, I saw, I conquered. VIndi VIdi VIci? VI VI VI.

[Deep13]

13. "antichrist will find a way to trick the faithful"

That's what I tell Christian acqaintences who speak about Dubya's character in glowing terms. He's the false prophet and the beast of Revelations.

[kliljedahl]

15. Anybody notice the Irony between the hype for Real ID

And this?: http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/10/fake.badges/index.html

There was a report on Corporate News Networkkk this morning followed by a segment on the above. They didn't seem to get the disconnect.


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