Do Christians believe Jews are God's chosen people?

[Toots]

Does Pat Robertson believe that? It is in the Bible. I know of many christians who say they support the Jews wholeheartedly but I wonder, do they really?

[CWebster]

1. They support fellow travelers on the far Right. nt

[Protagoras]

25. Exactly

Money and Power denote the RWs version of the Chosen people. I don't think it matters what else they call themselves.

[Done]

2. As part of their end-times beliefs,

Many evangelicals think the Jews are going to convert to evangelical Christianity, those who don't convert will be destroyed. The evangelicals will be "raptured" and the converted Jews will remain behind to try and "save" the world for Jesus during all the wars and such.

[Obamarama]

11. Well, they think God intervened in Bush's "election", too.....

So that should illustrate the rationality of evangelical Christian beliefs...

[Done]

15. It's kind of funny.

Many evangelicals think that Jesus can't come back again until they convert a large number of Jews. That's why they are making such a large effort to convert Jews to evangelical Christianity. That's why many of them are being so "good" to the Jewish community and Israel. They believe Jesus is up there, he's ready to go, he's got his bags packed and everything, but them Jews won't convert like their suppose to.

[Inland]

22. Excuse me, but it's the other way around.

The apocalypse theory is that there are a certain number of Jews around to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem and bring on the final hoe-down.

Therefore the crazy ass types are entirely proIsrael, and play down conversions, in order to keep the Jews in the game to play their foreordained role of bringing on Armageddon and, presumably, sending themselves to hell in the process.

[Done]

29. A search of google turns up 60,000 hits for "messianic Judaism"

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22messianic+judaism%22&btnG=Google+Search

Messianic Judaism is not Jews who have converted to Christianity, it is mostly Christians who pass themselves off as Jews who have converted to Christianity. This is part of an effort by evangelicals to convert the Jews.

Many evangelicals are making a huge effort to convert the Jews. If you don't believe me, ask the Jews. Yes, the evangelicals believe that most Jews will not convert and will be destroyed. They believe the non-converted Jews will rebuild the temple as part of the end-times, but oh yes, many evangelical do believe they need to convert 144,000 Jews to Christianity. This is from the book of Revelation (or at least their interpretation of it).

[Inland]

33. A google search of "Apple Butter" turned up 1,820,000 hits.

I have a jar of Apple Butter in my fridge, and I don't know what it is. But apparently it is a social phenom.

Seriously, I gave you the end timers reasoning towards Jews and Israel. And you got it wrong again--there have got to be Jews left, not converted, at the end.

[Emit]

55. Here's Gary North's take on the matter

Gary North is one of the major writers and publishers of the Christian Reconstructionism movement. (He is the son-in-law of R.J. Rushdoony, one of the movement's founders.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_North_%28Christian_Reconstructionist%29

The Unannounced Reason Behind American Fundamentalism's Support for the State of Israel
by Gary North
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/north7.html
<<snip>>

Vocal support of a pro-Israel American foreign policy is basic for the leaders of American Protestant fundamentalism. This has been true ever since 1948. Pat Robertson and Rev. Jerry Falwell have been pro-Israel throughout their careers, beginning two decades before the arrival of the New Christian Right in the late 1970's. These men are not aberrations.
<<snip>>
Tribulation and Rapture
Just prior to Jesus’ return to set up an earthly kingdom, argue most amillennialists and all premillennialists, there will be a time of persecution, called the Great Tribulation. It is here that the great debate over the Jews begins. Amillennialists believe that Christians will be persecuted by their enemies....

<<snip>>
The Rapture-based escape from history is now universally believed by fundamentalists to be imminent. Generations of fundamentalists have believed that they will escape bodily death....
But when? ...

<<snip>>
In order for most of today’s Christians to escape physical death, two-thirds of the Jews in Israel must perish, soon. This is the grim prophetic trade-off that fundamentalists rarely discuss publicly, but which is the central motivation in the movement’s support for Israel. It should be clear why they believe that Israel must be defended at all costs by the West. If Israel were militarily removed from history prior to the Rapture, then the strongest case for Christians’ imminent escape from death would have to be abandoned. This would mean the indefinite delay of the Rapture. The fundamentalist movement thrives on the doctrine of the imminent Rapture, not the indefinitely postponed Rapture.

Every time you hear the phrase, "Jesus is coming back soon," you should mentally add, "and two-thirds of the Jews of Israel will be dead in ‘soon plus 84 months.’" Fundamentalists really do believe that they probably will not die physically, but to secure this faith prophetically, they must defend the doctrine of an inevitable holocaust.... The presence of Israel validates the hope of fundamentalists that Christians, and Christians alone, will get out of life alive.

July 19, 2000


http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/north7.html

[Raksha]

57. Gary North is usually ranked among the major Dominionists.

I can't figure him out. He seems like a fundie/Dominionist spokesman in most of his writings, but OTOH there are times when he seems to be debunking fundamentalism. Maybe like a typical neocon he's just using the fundies for his own ends?

[kliljedahl]

18. GAWDS real name is Diebold

Keith’s Barbeque Central

[derby378]

3. Not all Christians consider the Bible infallible

To quote Woody Allen: "It is what it is."

So no, I don't play the race card for anyone, even the Jews. I do consider them with a certain regard, seeing that Christianity started as a splinter group (or reformation, if you prefer) of Judaism. Belief in the divinity of Jesus aside, he grew up in the Jewish tradition, debated rabbis on the meaning of Torah, and presented a more radical way of looking at morality without using the lens of codified dogma.

[Toots]

7. You are absolutely correct and I should have said Fundamentalists

In fact I will try to edit my post.

[madrchsod]

4. jews are not the "chosen people"

christians do not believe in the concept of the "chosen people"

[FLPolitico]

14. I have to disagree with you that Jews are not God's chosen people

It states explicitedly in the Old Testament that the Jews are God's chosen and anyone who blesses Israel will be blessed.
Unfortunately, the Evangelicals believe that America can do whatever it wants but as long as we support Israel we won't be punished as a nation which is bogus.
That is why all of the evangelicals are supporting the PNAC plan to 'destroy' Israel's enemies. Unfortunately only Jesus will be the one to do that when he returns.

[Inland]

23. No, that's not right.

The only question is, what were they chosen for? Christians emphasize that Jews were chosen to receive the Messiah.

[MarianJack]

5. ChicaAzul and I Are Roman Catholics...

...and we take the view that was stated by St Maximilian Kolbe. He referred to the Jewish People as "Our older brothers in Faith"

He also was murdered in Auschwitz when he volunteered to take the place of a man who was about to be killed because that man had a family.

[Obamarama]

6. The Door-To-Door Jesus Salesmen don't seem to beleive it........

I keep an extra copy of the Torah in a cabinet near my front door. Whenever someone shows up at my door trying to peddle their brand of Christianity, I politely decline and then offer to tell them about my religion (Judaism) and offer them the copy of the Torah.

About half get the picture and politely decline and leave. The other half try to get me to invite them into my home so they can presumably get a spiritual foothold and "save" me. I'll try two or three times to politely decline and send them on their way. If they keep pushing, I get rude and tell them "Look, I'm one of the God's 'chosen people" anyway, so you're wasting your time here." and then slam the door in their faces.

[MarianJack]

8. The Door to Door Mormans...

...look at us like they are smelling something bad when I state that we're Catholics.

The Jehovah's Witnesses just say thank you and go on their way.

[theophilus]

9. I think that Christians who actually read and understand the New Testament

realize that the Jews WERE God's chosen people but now God doesn't' operate in those terms. Now people are free to chose, or not chose, God. The emphasis has changed. Jesus fulfilled all the law and now, for Christians, the law is summed up in one action ---- to love your neighbor as yourself. If you do that and rely on Jesus' actions you will enjoy eternal life. This is the gospel, the "good news". Christians realize that their role is to share the good news of the possibility of eternal life, not to go about "beating up" on non-believers. The gospel was offered first to the Jews and they made up the people who chose God, the church, for about the first ten years, then the gospel expanded as Jesus had foretold. There is much that is not obvious that is so very important. Fundies seem to not like the true Christianity angle. Could they just be using a false Christianity to cover their evil thoughts and desires with a cloak of respectability? You bet! A complex issue but unfortunately we are blessed with many simple minds.

<edited for spelling>

[beanball]

47. The chosen ones

You must have read Romans chapter ten.

[FloridaPat]

10. They can't take it too seriously. Christians have been persecuting Jews

for 200 years. They were blamed for killing Jesus. The fact that Jesus was tried in a Roman court for breaking a Roman law and was killed by Romans seems to have gotten lost somewhere in history.

[theophilus]

12. Ignorance can be a horrible thing!

Jesus was killed by the religious hypocrites and the politically powerful. This includes representatives from all humanity as epitomized by Jews and Gentiles. As a species, in other words, we all participated in the crime. Jesus made the sacrifice willingly so we would not have to "do the time", i.e., we can live forever.

[bunkerbuster1]

16. Only 200 years?

Not to be nitpicky, but Christians have been persecuting Jews more or less throughout their history when it suited them to do so, the Spanish Inquisition (which NOOOObody expects!) being the most well-known example.

[FloridaPat]

37. I meant to type 2000 years.

[AntiCoup2K4]

19. But only at the insistence of the Jewish religious hierarchy.

Pilate didn't want anything to do with it, because he knew Jesus wasn't guilty of any crime. He told the priests and the Pharisees to figure it out for themselves, or take it to Herod. But then Herod passed the buck again and it went back to Pilate, who eventually said "whatever" just to get the idiot Pharisees and priests off his back.

Now obviously, that doesn't put the entire decision on "THE Jews", but you can't take the local Jewish leadership out of the equation. Or, for that matter, the crowds who cheered for Barrabas over Jesus. They were all as guilty as Pilate.

But it's as individuals that all of them (and all of us) will be called to give an account of our lives when you stand before your Creator at the end of this life. On that day, nobody gets to pass the buck.

And I want a front row seat when the Bush Criminal Empire members past and present get their day in that Court.

[Colorado Blue]

42. I think you mean, more like 1500 years or more, right? Since

Christianity became the State Religion of Rome (via Emperor Constantine), Christians have been actively persecuting Jews as well as Pagans, etc. Attempts to convert people were probably tried first, often at the point of a sword.

Read about the Christian efforts in the New World, to convert the Indians.

Torture and murder frequently accompanied the priests.

During the Crusades, large numbers of Jews were killed - not only in the Holy Land, but in EUROPE. I guess we were sort of a sacrifice? At any rate, Jews as well as Muslims were considered "infidels" and damned.

Jews are hardly the only people to have suffered from a reluctance to convert - but we have been the A#1 favorites in Europe for a long, long time. It's a stigma that continues to this day, even as Europe has become more secular, the old prejudice is still there and growing, once again. And it's very definitely been transferred to America.

[FloridaPat]

53. The Jews were officially thrown out of Palestine around 70 AD.

They didn't like Roman rule and kept fighting them. They had a big revolt in 66. The story sounds a lot like Iraq today. In fact, this story has been repeated hundreds of times over the centuries. People really like war it seems.

"The scene was now set for the revolt's final catastrophe. Outside Jerusalem, Roman troops prepared to besiege the city; inside the city, the Jews were engaged in a suicidal civil war. In later generations, the rabbis hyperbolically declared that the revolt's failure, and the Temple's destruction, was due not to Roman military superiority but to causeless hatred (sinat khinam) among the Jews (Yoma 9b). While the Romans would have won the war in any case, the Jewish civil war both hastened their victory and immensely increased the casualties. One horrendous example: In expectation of a Roman siege, Jerusalem's Jews had stockpiled a supply of dry food that could have fed the city for many years. But one of the warring Zealot factions burned the entire supply, apparently hoping that destroying this "security blanket" would compel everyone to participate in the revolt. The starvation resulting from this mad act caused suffering as great as any the Romans inflicted.

We do know that some great figures of ancient Israel opposed the revolt, most notably Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai. Since the Zealot leaders ordered the execution of anyone advocating surrender to Rome, Rabbi Yochanan arranged for his disciples to smuggle him out of Jerusalem, disguised as a corpse. Once safe, he personally surrendered to the Roman general Vespasian, who granted him concessions that allowed Jewish communal life to continue.

During the summer of 70, the Romans breached the walls of Jerusalem, and initiated an orgy of violence and destruction. Shortly thereafter, they destroyed the Second Temple. This was the final and most devastating Roman blow against Judea.

It is estimated that as many as one million Jews died in the Great Revolt against Rome. When people today speak of the almost two-thousand-year span of Jewish homelessness and exile, they are dating it from the failure of the revolt and the destruction of the Temple. Indeed, the Great Revolt of 66-70, followed some sixty years later by the Bar Kokhba revolt, were the greatest calamities in Jewish history prior to the Holocaust. In addition to the more than one million Jews killed, these failed rebellions led to the total loss of Jewish political authority in Israel until 1948. This loss in itself exacerbated the magnitude of later Jewish catastrophes, since it precluded Israel from being used as a refuge for the large numbers of Jews fleeing persecutions elsewhere. "

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/revolt.html

[beanball]

49. The Romans

The Romans did not condemn Christ,He was tried by the Romans because Isreal was occupied by the3 Romans,the Jews coudn't bring anyone to trial,only the Romans could.The Jews could and did bring charges against Christ,that is the reason he was tried by the Romans.Read any of the four gospels and you'll get a better understanding of what happened.God bless you.

[FloridaPat]

54. It was a Roman law. There had been many crucifictions before and

after Jesus. The Jews did tell Rome about Jesus saying he was the Mesiah. He was messing up the clergy, just like today. Seems these clergy guys get real mean when people upset their apple cart - or gold cart.

[CWebster]

13. The way I see it is

Anyone who worships Jesus as god is just bowing to authority.

What does christianity have to do with it?

[MemphisTiger]

17. I've heard some say that the Jews are the chosen race

but most believe that Jews must be in control of Jerusalem for the second coming.

[triguy46]

20. No, only those who ascribe to premillenial dispensationalism.

That said, for non-Christians its easy to think that PD is a universal church doctrine. However, it is a relatively new, (1830s), idea brought forth by a guy named Darby. Its apocalyptic view is inconsistent with the prior 1800 years of Christian theology. It is an idea that is embraced by many in the Christian right, but not all. It is NOT a universal. Many, very, very conservative Baptist seminarians, theologians, and pastors do not ascribe to that view, which leads to some interesting "within the family" arguments. Regardless of the press, (which for the most part has zero understanding of anything religious), and Tim Lahaye groupies, there are many other sound interpretations of end times. In fact, Lahaye is pretty much scorned by theologians of all type.

Now to the question, are Jews the chosen people? Under the old covenant of Abraham, yes, up to Jesus, in which any individual is able to be "chosen" by free election and faith. So it was once true, now it is not true. We have a new covenant.

On the other hand, the Jewish might have a different perspective.

[Raksha]

59. You're damn right we have a different perspective!

>>Now to the question, are Jews the chosen people? Under the old covenant of Abraham, yes, up to Jesus, in which any individual is able to be "chosen" by free election and faith. So it was once true, now it is not true. We have a new covenant.

On the other hand, the Jewish might have a different perspective.<<

We consider what you just said above unbelievably offensive! It's known as "replacement theology" and is hated by Jews, even those who don't believe anyone is "God's chosen people."

[Lydia Leftcoast]

21. During Holy Week, my church's bulletin carried a statement

saying that the Jews were not to be blamed for killing Christ, that God's covenant with the Jews had not been broken, and that Jews were not in need of conversion.

[funflower]

34. It is a common belief among conservative and fundamentalist Christians

that Jews are God's chosen people. The evidence of this comes from God's supposed covenant with Abraham, the patriarch of the Jewish people, and from the fact that Jesus was a Jew.

This does not mean they believe that Jews who reject the divinity of Jesus will be saved (no one who rejects that will be saved, under this interpretation of Christianity).

This is certainly not a universally-held belief across the wide spectrum of Christianity.

[FloridaPat]

38. The Jews were chosen to bring the word that there is only one God.

All the other religions had multiple gods. As for today's Jews, there is a Jewish scholer who has written a book that there was a tribe of non-Jewish people that were in the MIddle of a war. They turned Jewish so as to stay out of the war and todays Jewish decendents are these people. In other words, todays Jews are not from the original Jews.

[funflower]

39. Interesting

to me - not to fundies, however.

[Behind the Aegis]

41. Your title says it all.

People mistakingly think that "chosen people' means "favored." It does not. It means what you wrote, Jews were "chosen" to herald monotheism and the idea of "the one, true G-d." Furthermore, no one is expected to follow the Torah, except Jews.

[Colorado Blue]

44. Hello? Genetic testing links today's Jews,

even the Askenazi, very closely to the Arabs who live in the region of the Holy Land - and also, apparently even more closely, to the Kurds.

There was a theory, debunked by DNA testing, that some European Jews were descended from a Turkish tribe. Even if such a tribe did convert, it is illogical to assume that the entire community of European Jews were descended from this one group. No doubt, there were conversions, rapes and mixed marriages. Nonetheless the DNA evidence simply doesn't support this theory. It has, however, been used by anti-Israelis to contest the historical rights of the Jewish people to our homeland.

The theory also doesn't address the large community of MIDDLE EASTERN JEWS, who have lived in the region since ancient times, and who make up the majority of Israeli Jews today.

[AlienGirl]

48. That theory is also a favorite of "Christian Identity" wackos. n/t

[Colorado Blue]

51. Who are they?? nt

[FloridaPat]

52. I had read the article by a Jewish historian on the internet. Yes, not

everything you read on the internet is true. In fact...

[Raksha]

58. You are referring to the legend of the mass Khazar conversion.

>>There was a theory, debunked by DNA testing, that some European Jews were descended from a Turkish tribe. Even if such a tribe did convert, it is illogical to assume that the entire community of European Jews were descended from this one group.<<

Has it really been debunked? The Khazars were a central Asian tribe, but this is the first time I've heard that they were Turkish or related to the Turks. It's also my understanding that the close relationship between the Khazars and the Jews was played down or actually suppressed by revisionist Soviet-era historians, who did NOT want to give credibility to any possible connection between Ukrainian Christians and Jews.

>>No doubt, there were conversions, rapes and mixed marriages. Nonetheless the DNA evidence simply doesn't support this theory. It has, however, been used by anti-Israelis to contest the historical rights of the Jewish people to our homeland.<<

I know all about it! The standard taunt goes that if they are "Khazars" they can't possibly be "real Jews" and are therefore imposters. Fundies always consider themselves such experts on who is or is not a "real Jew,"...have you noticed?

--Linda

(Ashkenazi Jew who looks more Ukrainian than Arab, and veteran of WAY too many raucous debates on way too many interfaith boards!)

P.S. The legend has it that the conversion of the Khazar chieftain (in the 1300s?) was followed by the conversion of his entire tribe, who subsequently intermarried with Semitic Jews. The Ashkenazim have never made any claim to ethnic or racial purity as far as I know. I've always assumed I had mixed ancestry and I've never lost any sleep over it.

[RaleighNCDUer]

24. The "christians" of whom we speak will support the Jews just as

long as their leaders tell them to. When the leaders change their minds, so will they.

A lot of RW Jews and Catholics will be terribly disappointed when the solidly entrenched "christian" fundamentalists turn on them. Which they will do. Have no doubt about that.

[noonwitch]

26. Some do, some don't

Pat says that he does on his show. Most evangelicals in this country give lip service to that idea. What they truly belief is that it is this country's responsibility to support Israel. They state it's because the jewish israelis are god's people, but they also state that it serves their "end times" agenda, too. They are pretty upfront about it-they truly belief that the establishment of Israel as a nation after WWII is a sign of the beginning of the end.

[Sparkle]

27. This christian don't.

[Zerex71]

28. No, but AEI and JINSA think that.

[DanCa]

30. I support anyone

Who has a good heart treats people with respect and knows the different between activism and private devotion. As far as the chosen people go all I know is that My god loves everyone equally regardless of orientation, political affiliation and stance on reproductive issues.

[jmcon007]

31. if Jews are God's chosen people, why did He create Gentiles?

well, SOMEBODY has to pay retail....

[RaleighNCDUer]

32. Bada boom. nt

[AntiCoup2K4]

35. Apparently the Jews just won a second term as the "Chosen People"

GOD NAMES NEXT "CHOSEN PEOPLE"; IT'S JEWS AGAIN
"Oh Shit," Say Jews

Jerusalem (SatireWire.com) Update — Jews, whose troubled, 10,000-year term as God's "chosen people" finally expired last night, woke up this morning to find that they had once again been hand-picked by the Almighty. Synagogues across the globe declared a day of mourning.

Asked if the descendants of Abraham shouldn't be pleased about being tapped for an unprecedented second term, Jerusalem Rabbi Ben Meyerson shrugged. "Of course, you are right, we should be thrilled," he said. "We should also enjoy a good swift kick in the head, but for some reason, we don't.

"Now don't ask such questions until you watch the news, or read history, or at least rent 'Fiddler on the Roof'."

Much of the world's re-blessed Jewish community shared that feeling. "It's always been considered a joke with us. You know, 'Please G-d, next time choose someone else,' ha ha," said New York City resident David Bashert.

"Ha. Ha ha," Bashert added. "Shit."

According to a worldwide survey of faiths, not a single group expressed an interest in being chosen, and the only application submitted before last night's filing deadline, on behalf of the Islamic people, proved to be a fake.

"Somebody filled out a form and signed our name to it, but I guarantee it wasn't us," said Imam Yusuf Al Muhammed of Medina, Saudi Arabia. "I'm not going to say who it was, but the application was filled out in Hebrew."

<snip>

http://www.satirewire.com/news/march02/chosen.shtml

[Colorado Blue]

45. LOL! nt

[spanone]

36. I prefer to think that God doesn't play favorites.

[leesa]

40. If God made everybody, why would he choose one over the other?

More bad parenting on God's part?

My guess is that it is the propaganda of the particular religion

[AlienGirl]

46. Jews were "chosen" to practice Judaism

It isn't a playing-favorites thing; it's an obligation.

Tucker

[AlienGirl]

43. Fundamentalist Christians claim to love "the Jews"

They love "the Jews" as an amorphous mass, but they don't seem to care much for individual Jewish people. It's kind of a creepy objectification.

Tucker

[Jim Sagle]

50. Whadda bunch shit.

[eridani]

56. Remember what Mike Royko said about that.

"That's the scariest thing I've ever heard. I mean, what does He do to people He doesn't like?"

[tritsofme]

60. That was the "old Covenant"

If I remember my Sunday School (which I very well may not)

I thought the Resurrection of Jesus brought about a new and everlasting Covenant that replaced the one made with Moses, making Christians God's favored people.

[Sgent]

61. There are differing interpretations

Many mainstream christians interpret the New Testament as binding on all non-jews.

Others view that a jew faithfully fulfilling his duties will be saved by Jesus, even with lack of an actual belief in Jesus (part of the whole trinity thing which I don't get). Catholics are the best example of this (Pope John II proclomation)

Finally, other's view a praticing jew as a an apostate to Christianity, thus bound for hell.

Jews on the other hand don't really care, we have our laws, they apply to us and no one else, and that's the end of it. Jesus, although apparently a reformer, has no claim to be either the messiah (which we do believe in), or the Son of God which we don't, for a variety of reasons.

The only laws that apply to humankind in our view, are fulfilled by practicing christians, so we don't really have any theological issues with christians unless that christian happens to be a Jew.