Paper Trails, Paper Trails, Paper Trails! KICK FOR PAPER TRAILS!!!

[DistressedAmerican]

Three New Graphics For A Cause WE BETTER NOT FORGET!!!
- VOTER VERIFICATION!

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I was contacted this weekend by a friend who is actively working for voter verification and paper trails for these damn electronic voting machines. She asked me to make up some graphics publicizing the issue and an upcoming event.

I know with the last round of polling recently behind us, there are plenty of issues that demand people's attention. However, the issue of audit-able election results goes to the core of our democratic principles.

Without verification there is no legitimacy!

The failure to insist on voter verifiable polling methods has cast a significant shadow over the past two Presidential elections. Little has changed to improve the situation.

With 2006 just around the corner, NOW IS THE TIME TO ACT!

Here are links to some organizations working this important issue:


http://verifiedvoting.org/index.php


http://www.nyvv.org/

Here are the graphics I came up with. Please feel free to spread them around!






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Any comments or links that could be helpful on the overall battle?

Anyone have any good updates or links on the June 9th Washington rally?

I have larger versions I can post if they would be useful...

[In Truth We Trust]

1. Paper ballots NOW!!!! Hand counts Now!!!!!

This solution is tried and true and the least likely method to defraWd the electoral process as was done on Nov. 2nd 2004.

[DistressedAmerican]

2. Here Here! (Or Or It Hear Hear?)

[annabanana]

3. Great graphics!

ready to Print & Post!!

[DistressedAmerican]

5. As Soon As My Daughter Goes Back To Sleep, I'll Post Links

to the poster size PDF's!

Easier to use that way.

[goodboy]

4. Voter-Verified PAPER BALLOT, and nothing less! (nt)

[Andy_Stephenson]

12. You have learned well...

Grasshopper.

:hi:

[DistressedAmerican]

6. Just Added A New Section To My Main Page With Several Good Links

Here's the link:

http://www.seedsofdoubt.com/distressedamerican/main.htm

DA

[DistressedAmerican]

7. ...

[DistressedAmerican]

8. Found A Good Online Petition In Support Of Election Reform Legislation...

I posted it to its own thread. Please take a minute and put your support behind this legislation!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3625929

[Unforgiven]

9. Kick

[DistressedAmerican]

10. Another!

[Andy_Stephenson]

11. PAPER TRAILS????? WTF?????

If anyone kicks this thread again after me...I will leave this hospital and come kick their paper trail ass!

As for the OP Read my sig line. Then try again!

Thanks for trying...But Paper Trails are not worth the thermal paper they are printerd on.

ONLY Voter Verified Paper Ballots will do.

[sandnsea]

13. Second one is backwards

Input Your Vote,
Cast Your Ballot

I'm not for handcounting because it's a losing proposition and was full of fraud anyway. I am for the paper being the ballot.

Paper trails and receipts is deceptive and the wrong way to go.

[marions ghost]

14. PAPER BALLOTS, NOT PAPER TRAILS ! ! !

There is a huge difference. Precinct-counted paper ballots is the ONLY way to go. Receipts mean NOTHING and don't eliminate the problems of error, fraud, high maintenance and high costs of DREs. (DREs are five times as expensive as optiscan technology). Actual paper ballots can be used for recounts.

DONT BE FOOLED.

[troubleinwinter]

15. VOTER VERIFIED PAPER BALLOTS. Nothing less.

VOTER VERIFIED PAPER BALLOTS. Nothing less.
VOTER VERIFIED PAPER BALLOTS. Nothing less.
VOTER VERIFIED PAPER BALLOTS. Nothing less.
VOTER VERIFIED PAPER BALLOTS. Nothing less.
VOTER VERIFIED PAPER BALLOTS. Nothing less.
VOTER VERIFIED PAPER BALLOTS. Nothing less.
VOTER VERIFIED PAPER BALLOTS. Nothing less.
VOTER VERIFIED PAPER BALLOTS. Nothing less.

[jarnocan]

17. true I have heard others say this

I have heard that this is the most comprehensive bill around so far.
I also meant to have the comment area functional on the petiton, but I have another idea I think would also be good , really better than yet another petiton - an orange post card camapaign. I would like to see US send post cards to our congresspeople and possibly the meida also in conjunction with this Verified Vote Lobby Day in WDC on June 9th.

I also would reccommend demanding voter fraud investigations. Reform will be meaningless IMHO without Investigations, Prosecution, Punishments and IMPEACHMENT, but I didn't go quite that far in the petition, but really if we ever have real effective investigations- I think the truth would come out. Actually really is out-so much factual information actually out there, just got to fight more -for acknowledgement - I guess. Anyway here is the beginning of the petiton;


'We the undersigned, endorse the following petition:
Support Verified Voting / Call for investigations
Target: Henry Waxman Committee on Govenrment Reform Minority Office

Petiton to support Verified Voting Lobby Day on June 9th,the Rush Holt Bill HR-550, and call for meaningful investigations of election fraud, in order to enable meaningful reform. ..... " the reast is as above.

see http://www.verifiedvoting.org/ for more info.

I read Robert Koehler's The Silent Scream of Numbers and felt the need to do something. read it here;
http://www.commonwonders.com/archives/col290.htm
I have some more info and links on my blog at jarnocan.blogspot.com

[sweetheart]

16. paper schmaper

A physical record needs be kept, and that could be marbles in a jar,
as its frankly better than paper... as verification involves VIOLATING
THE SECRET BALLOT!!! Better it is, to insist on a vote-once, no-
verification technology, like video taping the voting machine, or using
physical burn-in memory cards, and so many other advances over paper
ballots.

This paper ballot noise sounds too much like luddites wanting to go
back away from the industrial revolution. Technology improvements are
a part of voting-process evolution, and paper is JUST A TECHNOLOGY,
not the solution... stupid legislaters are mistaking their nose to
spite their face.

Legislate that a dual-trail be kept of all voting, that there be a
computer and physical record of every vote cast... that is all need be
put in to law... additional trivia about paper is overdoing it, and
ill advised.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sweetheart]

19. I've read all the reports on elections and election systems

Caltech and the smarter agencies involved suggest that a physical
record be kept, and paper is "a" physical record. There are others
that are outlined in reports. It is wise to legislate function, not
technology.

The paper ballot, the australian ballot as where it was first introduced,
has some serious liabilities. The butterfly ballot, and all the problems
in florida 2000 came from paper ballots. To suddenly herald them as
the end-all is showing short memory indeed.

I get the electionline newsletter and follow election systems
technology very very closely, VVAT is a good idea, if you must rely
on something, but a paper ballot is going backwards, and puts us in
the luddite party, hardly progressive.

(VVAT - voter verifed audit trail). Another system that has great
merit is one that has a video camera filming the hands of the voting
machine user. THis one then is able to certify that the count of a
machine is the same as what was recorded, to avoid after-the-close
ballot stuffing.

I'm merely a technologicially aware person advising people to be more
wise with their determination to get elections properly counted.

The focuses should be on the registration processes, as that is where
the most abuse is apparent. SEcondly, poor areas are getting crap
voting machines, and not enough of them, that people are in long lines
and not able to vote... and of course there is the computer vapour
ballot problem.

To suddenly blame computers, and worship paper, is really not
progressive. Heck, if you want accurate counts, the old lever
machines are much less corruptable... why aren't you demanding the
return of mechanical levers?

[marions ghost]

22. LOL LOL-- now video cameras?

While video cameras may be useful in polling places to prevent or capture improper procedures by pollworkers, using video cameras to monitor the VOTER?!? Why would you take a PICTURE of the voter when simply using a paper ballot would eliminate the need entirely? That is just laughable.

Eliminate the problem of "crap" voting machines. Just use a simple scanner to scan pre-printed PAPER ballots. There are no holdups at the polls caused by machines. Think about the beauty and simplicity of that, instead of how to layer it all up with a bunch of finicky devices that drive the pollworkers insane and require experts to troubleshoot.

[sweetheart]

25. new voting systems are better

I'm sorry, the failure in ohio has more to do with the blackwell and
other poll workers than the technology. They purposely put bad
systems and too few of them, in democratic areas. They locked out
the public from the count, by using terrorism bullshit, and all sorts
of underhanded tricks that had nothing to do with the technology.

Current computer voting systems, have an advantage of being multilingual,
and able to reduce ballot spoilage, able to deal with blind persons
and other disabilities, offering a variety of features that save
money AND deliver good value IF OPERATED UNDER PROPER SUPERVISION.

I don't trust the computers myself, and i've developed here, a totally
mechanical system that does not require electricity or paper, or gears
or levers to work. I'm under patent application, and can't say more,
but, as an engineer, i'd much rather vote on what i'm looking at, than
any paper ballot. This system is hands down, far superior. I've
been working my tukus off to launch a better democratic-owned voting
systems company, and i agree that the current lot of computer
balloting: ESS and the others... suck. Just people are being silly
in legislating technology rather than function... which could make
it so that the only markets for my very accurate election system are
outside of corrupt places like the US.

Paper is a flawed technology, and if you research it, the spoilage
rate is way too high, the first position on the ballot is within the
margin of error in 10% of all elections. (people are more likely to
vote the first ballot position, and a paper ballot gives an unfair
advantage to position 1.. this being larger than the margin of
error in 10% of races) source:
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/links/doi/10.1046/j.1468-2508.2004.00151.x/abs/

I've been doing full time research on this for some time now, as i'm
planning on beating all existing balloting technologies in the
marketplace. I understand the emotions that drive peersons to want
paper, but these should be tempered with prudence.

[marions ghost]

27. oh OK

well maybe you can bring out your "device" once the country recovers from the damage done by your predecessors, who have sold a third of the voters a hideously expensive UNAUDITABLE pig-in-a-poke that no self-respecting bank or business would think of using. This is a monumental rip-off that has been perpetrated on the public, taking advantage of both naivete in computers, and political collusion with Republican-owned businesses.

Guess what--a lot of really smart people want a more-reliable, much lower-cost solution --that can be managed by the citizen-sponsored regional elections boards. Right now, and for the foreseeable future, that would be paper ballots with optiscan (in use since the 60's), with random hand counts to check the machines. Also there are better ways to deal with multi-lingual voters--ie. you COULD have a computer for instructions in areas with high concentrations of non-English speakers. And THEN they vote on the paper version of the ballot. Much easier to deal with screw-ups, too. "Ballot spoilage" would be minimized and is not a big deal anyway, relative to computer errors.

Good luck on beating existing technologies. Hard for me to believe your "mechanical" system is better than paper. Paper is the ACTUAL record of the voter's intent, in a way that no computer or machanical device can be. But since you can't/don't explain your device, it's hard to judge. I would say you have a certain personal vested interest, a certain bias against paper.

[marions ghost]

21. Suggest that you research what you are advocating...

1. RESEARCH the actual costs of DRES vs paper ballots/optiscan. Maintenance and purchase of DREs is 5X higher, prohibitive for many localities.
http://www.votersunite.org/takeaction/mythbreakerssecondedition.pdf

2. RESEARCH the opinions of computer esperts advocating paper ballots:
www.chuckherrin.com

3. RESEARCH the story in Ireland, where they have gone back to paper after trying electronic voting: http://election.polarbears.com/art0037.htm

4. RESEARCH the record of "precinct-counted paper/optiscan" and you will see that it is much more reliable than DREs can be made to be:

http://www.nyvv.org/paperballotVsDRE.htm
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0503/S00127.htm

These are some websites to start with -- seems you need to start with the basics...

--------------
How about doing your homework before calling other people a perjorative like "Luddites"? People advocating paper ballots are technology-oriented and know all too well the limitations of computerized voting, especially if you want to keep the voting process in the hands of the (lower-tech) populace instead of voting machine companies.

You can keep your silly "marbles in a jar" analogy too--the paper ballot is the ACTUAL record of the voter's intent. Nothing yet invented can take the place of that degree of accuracy and verification. Your "advances" in technology have not passed the test for this application--google "appropriate technology." No need for "dual-trails" adding more complexity and expense.

It's very simple:

1. Paper Ballots
2. Machine counts paper ballots in each precinct (with random hand-counts to check)

[sweetheart]

24. Here you go.

"Punch cards and optically scanned ballots are two of the most widely used technologies, and both suffer unacceptably high error rates in all three categories."

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2000/voting.html

Paper ballots experience a serious amount of spoilage. They are not
well suited to multiple languages, disabled voters, and are heavy,
given that most poll workers are middle aged and older persons.

You might have a look around this website as well:
http://vote.nist.gov/

Paper is not the panacea you're painting it to be.

Its very simple:
VVAT - voter verified audit trail (receipts)
Voting machines that WORK.

You don't hate cars and go back to horses because you have a crap car?
Well, then similarly, its the same with voting systems. You get one
that actually is not corruptable. Legislating paper
is tossing the baby out with the bathwater. Legislate a safe,
secure balloting system, and get the assholes like blackwell(sp)
and catherine harris, who are the real bad apples in all this out
of such positions to swing elections against the will of the people.

[marions ghost]

26. My last response

:boring:

This is my last response to you--go spend some time in the DU Elections forum, and then spend a few days researching what you're talking about and bring some good arguments here instead of thin comparisons to marbles and horse&buggy days. You obviously don't want to address the nature of the problems that actually exist in polling places with these electronic voting machines. They have failed the big Beta Test of 2004 miserably and cost FIVE times the more reliable optiscan technology which uses paper ballots. Complaints associated with optiscan have been linked to misuse of new systems (Florida got them recently, and then didn't train people how to use them...) Most savvy Elections Boards are going for optiscan rather than DREs. DREs have been over-hyped and oversold. (No point in your linking punch cards and optiscan, not relevant). Your MIT website also quotes misleading arguments and is a well-known proponent of DREs, hardly objective. Go to www.chuckherrin.com to see the other side.

And then you refer me to NIST--Natl Institute of Standards and Technology, which is supposed to be helping the Election Assistance Commission to implement HAVA. First of all the EAC is an unfunded figurehead organization whose best members are jumping ship. Second, HAVA (Help America Vote Act) paved the WAY for the premature introduction of e-voting, at the expense of the voters. Nah, I don't think that NIST is going to convince me of anything.

Agreed--we do need to concentrate on removing the Blackwells from power--now that makes some sense.

Why don't you put your post in the Elections Forum??? I'm sure people there would have more discussion.

[DFLer4edu]

20. kick

[AzDar]

23. Verified Voting.......or we're all Dooooooomed!!!! n/t