20 years from now: In general, will Bush be venerated or reviled?

[deutsey]

I'm willing to wager that, among DU'ers, he'll be reviled. What I'm interested in is whether you think he will be considered to have been a good president by the public in twenty years.

Reagan, for example, is a president I revile personally, but I think he's generally accepted as having been a "good" president today.

[ktowntennesseedem]

1. Both. (See: Reagan, Ronald)

Those who love him will continue to do so; they're just stupid like that. Those who hate him will still be busy trying to clean up the mess he made, and will hate him even more.

[SalmonChantedEvening]

13. Exactly.

Note the current adoration of McCarthy and his tactics by many on the far right.

[ktowntennesseedem]

20. What a great DU name!!!

Damn, you've got that song stuck in my head now!!!

:rofl:

[SalmonChantedEvening]

22. Thank you!

It was either this or President Lepetomaine...


I decided against dishonoring Mel Brooks ;)

[ktowntennesseedem]

29. I extend to you a laurel.... and hearty welcome!

[SalmonChantedEvening]

33. The fool's gonna... I mean the Sherrif's gonna do it!!!

:rofl:

[ktowntennesseedem]

38. Candygram for Mongo! Candygram for Mongo!

"Mongo only pawn in game of life."

[SalmonChantedEvening]

39. Let's Play Chess.

:D

[deutsey]

44. "Sheriff murdered, crops burned, stores looted, people stampeded,

and cattle raped."

[SalmonChantedEvening]

45. "That's Headley!"

"Hey, this is 1874, you can sue her!"

[deutsey]

50. "Its twue...it's twue, it's twue!!"

[SalmonChantedEvening]

53. "I'm parked over by the Commisary...."

weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[spooked911]

2. Good question! I would bet he will neither be reviled or admired

--although it depends on if the truth about 9/11 comes out, in which case he will be reviled.

But certainly I can't see how Iraq-- his greatest legacy--- is going to be something to admire in twenty years. Iraq is just going to kill more people before we finally decide to leave and it's not clear there will be any great democracy there. And even if there is, at what cost is it worth it?

[jojo54]

3. He will be revered

as one of the greatest ever (according to the conservatives and religious right). They will tout that he brought freedom and democracy to other suppressed nations. What won't be repeated is how many lives it cost, and how much of the financial burden has been passed down to our grandchildren and great grandchildren.

[impeachthescoundrel]

4. History in general will not be kind to him

Sure we revile him here. But the things he is doing will make him a hated president among progressives and right wingers alike.

[zanne]

5. I think that his time in office will be seen as...

a shameful period in American history. In 50 years or so, all his secrets will be out there for everybody to see and the "conspiracy theories" we have today will be facts then.

[jeff30997]

6. When Raygun died they made a saint out of him...

The day Chimpozoid dies they will Deify him and build him a pyramid damn it !

[deutsey]

18. Reagan single-handedly made the Soviet Union collapse, after all.

:sarcasm:

[bunkerbuster1]

25. Raygun was somewhat popular in his day

I say "somewhat" because his apple-polishers would have you believe he was adored by an overwhelming majority, when in fact he was badly hurt by Iran-Contra and left with lower approval numbers than Clinton.

Bush never enjoyed such support. As I've always said about the man (not his regime, but the man, himself) he's lazy and he only makes enough of an effort to get by.

[NewJeffCT]

31. his overall approval was lower than Clinton, too

I think somebody did a week-to-week comparison of Reagan vs Clinton and the Big Dog came out ahead in the Gallup polls, and Gallup is a Republican organization.

I've always thought that if Dukakis hadn't taken August off and was prepared for Willie Horton & then beat Bush... Reagan would have had a very tainted legacy, as Bush would not have been able to pardon all those Iran-Contra figures in an effort to put it all behind us.

[bunkerbuster1]

55. Right. If you think the outpouring for Reagan's funeral was big

I suspect it will be dwarfed by what we'll see when Billy-Jeff finally passes from this earth. (Not that I want to see that anytime soon of course.)

Not only do people conveniently forget how popular Clinton was (especially when compared to how Reagan suffered and was viewed as out-of-touch and probably incompetent by a plurality, if not necessarily a majority), people forget how the House Reeps were trounced in the '98 mid-terms, what most saw at the time as a repudiation of their impeachment hearings.

That said, I'm not sure I agree with what you'd said about the pardons: wouldn't Poppy Bush have arranged for Reagan to pardon the Iran-Contra people in late '88/early '89, anyway?

(Furthermore, I don't see a President Dukakis spending a lot of time trying to settle that score, but who knows.)

[NewJeffCT]

56. True

Poppy may have been able to persuade Reagan to pardon all those Iran-Contra folks... but, who knows? Reagan took the blame for Iran-Contra, so may not have felt it necessary.

And, I think part of the reason the RW spends so much time tearing down Clinton is that they want to ensure that when Clinton does pass away, the media won't don their rose colored glasses when looking back.

How much do you want to bet that if Clinton died tomorrow, the panels of talking heads will be fair & balanced between Republicans & Democrats when speaking of his legacy? Meanwhile, when Reagan died, the panels of talking heads that discussed St. Ronnie's memory were almost exclusively RW Republicans.

[bunkerbuster1]

57. If Clinton died tomorrow, sure.

But given that RR died 15 years after leaving office, the better question to ask is how the pundits would act if WJC were to die in 2015 when (one presumes/hopes) there'll be little to be gained by trashing the man posthumously.

You'd think it'd be a different story although corporate media will always be on the side of the bastards, so...

[deutsey]

59. They were posthumously assassinating JFK, RFK and MLK for years

And just recently there's been an effort by the rightwing to co-opt JFK ("he would be a conservative today") and MLK ("he would be against affirmative action") for their own purposes (and maybe RFK, but I can't think of specific instances).

[punpirate]

7. I'm going with Gore Vidal...

... who has said Bush will leave office the most despised President in the history of the country.

Remember, there's so much of what Bush has done that has yet to see the light of day. When it does, my guess is that even the little old Republican ladies will want to claw his eyes out.

[BlueIris]

28. Is that what Vidal said? Good for him.

Assuming we make it that far, I will be very curious to see what the school textbooks in particular say about Bush in two decades: Will we see, ala Nixon, textbooks of a conservative bent uncomfortably pointing out Bush's "unpopularity," and still spinning his crimes as "misjudgments" while the more respectable ones attempt, albeit with a certain restraint, to explain the Bush Administration to tommorow's students for what it should be seen as (the years America was led by fascists)? Will most books generally try to tell the harsh truth about Bush's extremity, although they are reviled by the yet-undead faction of Bush-worshipping America who I believe will remain willfully blind to his evil or its part in sustaining it? If I had to guess, I'd say some historians will be able to paint a semi-positive picture of Bush in twenty years, as disgusting as that is. I can always hope for brutal honesty, but after the period of pervasive social mendacity we will have lived through by the end of Bush's rule, I think we'll have to speak out aggressively about the realities of these years to disbelievers, for the sake of writing the bulk of our history accurately. The liars aren't going anywhere for awhile.

[Atlas Mugged]

8. Nationally - or worldwide????

Personally, I think he'll be reviled here because of the enormous financial blunders he's made; unlike any other president in history. Worldwide is another story altogether - he'll be despised and other nations will use them in their history books as an example, just as we use a certain other megalomaniac/whackjob/crusader in ours.

[Solly Mack]

9. Depends on who people listen to

Disinformation keeps people guessing. Any truth can be surrounded with false information.

If Rove can't achieve a complete win for Shrub's legacy, he'll settle for it being open for debate with disinformation.

The goal for Rove is to prevent anything from sticking to Shrub. No matter how true, as long as Shrub is never held accountable for it, his legacy is a matter of opinion...not fact...in the public eye.

What we *know* to be true of Shrub means nothing unless he is held accountable...

I still find people who say Nixon was smeared. Even if Shrub is brought to justice for his crimes, some people will claim a conspiracy against him. However, much like Nixon, they'll be hard put to do more than claim...IF Bush is held responsible.

If he's not...then Yes, you'll hear he was a good President 20 years from now. Count on it. It's Rove's goal.

[blondeatlast]

14. Once Bunnypants leaves office, will Rove even bother with BP?

I already think he's abandoned BP to some degree in favor of Bug Bomb Tom and the Anal Frist.

[Solly Mack]

21. He's bothering now and it's working in a lot of ways

The inner circle seldom turns on the Bush family. Then you have Karen Hughes to consider...

Rove's not going to cut his own throat...so he'll work to position other republicans in places of power...but I don't see him turning on Bush...maybe he would give the appearance of it to promote another republican but it wouldn't be real...

[Zen Democrat]

10. I think Reagan is considered a "good guy" not a great President

Especially since it becomes more and more obvious that all the evils we're dealing with today - domestically and internationally -- were created, or allowed to flourish, in the Reagan years (which were controlled by the Bush Crime Family).

Reagan was the affable actor giving the speeches.

[nine30]

23. Reagan's popularity is mostly due to a father figure like persona

in front of the camera. That smile, the comforting voice, the optimism, he heavily drew from his acting skills. He may even have been a generally good guy, but he wrecked the economy and took the country along a very reckless and an almost disastrous path. In hindsight Reagan's approach may have been correct to outspend the Soviets and win the war without firing a single shot or a missle, but it was also fraught with EXTREME risk -- it would have taken just one small slip for complete global annihilation.

[NewJeffCT]

32. I think it was Sam Donaldson that said...

I think back when Sam was on This Week with David Brinkley, if a single poor person went up to Reagan and asked for help, Reagan would give him the shirt off his back to help out. However, Reagan would then turn around & sign legislation that would take the shirts off the backs of a million other poor people. (It was something like that...)

The big difference, to me, between Reagan & Bush is that at least Reagan would take the blame if something went wrong (Marine barracks bombing in Lebanon & Iran Contra)... The only thing Bush has taken fault over was trading Sammy Sosa. He's been perfect ever since... (GAG!)

[radwriter0555]

11. bush will be compared to hitler... an evil, monstrous abomination.

Mark my words.

It will take NATO on the streets of DC to retreive our nation from the clutches of the criminal monsters in our White House.

[blondeatlast]

12. Depends. Are we still in Iraq? Iran? Is OBL still dragging his

dialysis machine thru the desert?

REVILED.

[Career Prole]

15. That will depend on the media because generally speaking

Americans need to be told what to think. Bush will be reviled if an honest tally is taken.

For instance, I give you the article Reid Calls Bush 'A Loser,' Then Apologizes which has been "featured" on Yahoonews for three days now.

Reid calls shrub a loser...call me biased but any honest assessment of the man brings to light very little in the way of personal accomplishment and many notable failures. In short, a loser's record.

Reid apologizes, much as I wish he hadn't. I would have preferred he defended the comment if interviewed. The RNC wouldn't want to have that dirty laundry aired out.

The White House's response to Reid's apology was totally out of proportion.

Asked for comment, a White House spokeswoman referred to a statement issued by the Republican National Committee. RNC spokesman Brian Jones called Reid's statement "a sad development but not surprising from the leader of a party devoid of optimism, ideas or solutions to the issues people care about most."

They took a crap on half the population of the country...and the media lets that stand. I'm pissed.

Harry...next time call shrub a friggin' criminal and don't apologize for it. :grr:

[NewJeffCT]

34. In last November

Last November, a lot of Republicans I know held their noses & voted for Bush because Kerry had been so effectively demonized as a flip-flopper who couldn't protect America that they voted Bush because he was the lesser of 2 evils.

[indepat]

16. By his works he shall be known to the extent Repug spin doesn't cast him

into something glorified he wasn't as in the case of the now-deified Gipper.

[nine30]

17. The Jury will be split

One group will demonize him..the other will erect a monument.

[Inland]

19. Al-qaeda will be thanking Allah for sending such an incompetent enemy.

Bush is a tool for them to accomplish their goals.

Does that count as veneration?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

24. Based on what the NeoCons have set in motion, we may not be here....

...to discuss it.

As far as Reagan goes, he gave testimony against some of his fellow Hollywood actors and writers during the Joe McCarthy hearings back in the 1950s, and those folks were blacklisted from working in Hollywood for decades.

He was also the president when tens of thousands of Central Americans were being murdered by regimes supported and trained by the US Army, the Defense Intelligence Agency, and the CIA.

Additionally, the economy began taking a nose-dive during his two terms, and went belly-up when GHWB took over as president.

"Good president"? I don't think so.

[deutsey]

52. I agree, but people only seem to believe that he caused the USSR

to collapse (despite the fact that the CIA was completely surprised when it happened).

He left America and the world a shittier place, but that ain't what's emphasized in pop history.

[bunkerbuster1]

26. In 20 years, opinion will be mostly negative

unless Chimpy manages to accomplish something in the next 3½ years that reverses the entrenched negative opinion this country has of him, which I seriously doubt.

Yes, there will be a quadrant of the population who'll continue to enthusiastically support him, and try to erect monuments, get shit named after him, etc. They'll succeed, as do supporters of all former Presidents, to erect some facade of respectability.

But I don't think there's any way in holy hell that the damage he's done will be remembered fondly by most.

Say it loud, loud enough for your local media outlet to hear: BUSH IS NOT A POPULAR PRESIDENT. No matter what the corporate media wants to believe (and oh, how they want to), most Americans don't actually support what he's done and what he's doing.

[HughBeaumont]

27. Posted this in another thread, but it applies here:

I challenge the biggest right-leaning historian jackass to name one, and I mean just ONE thing Presidouche Bush has done right. What will they say with a straight face? He has not accomplished ONE noteworthy thing while in office.

Each of his elections have been won under incredibly suspicious circumstances. The worst attack on US soil happened under his watch and could have been prevented. There's damning evidence that his administration let it happen on purpose. The Iraq war is a goddamned failure and when you think about it, the true "War on Terror" has yet to even start. It was started on several proven lies and will continue for at least 5-6 more years. The rich-poor gap is the worst it's been in decades. Gas prices rose. The American middle class family is earning a mere $3000 more a year in real dollars as they did in 1970, while working 40-80 hours longer. Civil Rights went straight in the shitter. The religious reich holds more power than ever.

Seriously, if we overlook Reagan's obvious shit-ups, like Iran-Contra, S&L and Noriega, you could at least bullshit your way, via superficial events that most likely would have happened with anybody, to making him look good even if it killed you. I seriously don't think the same thing can be done for Lancelot Link. Technology has come a long way since Reagan despite Bush's best efforts to keep his and Poppy's misdeeds guarded. The only three things that ever propped up Presidunce Asswipe were old money/connections (mostly via his Father), an uneducated (and therefore easily manipulated) voter base and Karl Rove. It certainly ain't his achievements.

[AzDar]

35. Amen, baby!!! n/t

[ladjf]

30. Bush and his administration will be studied in history books

for hundreds of years. The ease with which they were able to overthrow the government of the U.S. without shedding a drop of their blood and with the assistance of the American people. It was a "text book" coup d'etat.

[NewJeffCT]

36. Unfortunately

It will be studied in the history books of Europe, Japan, China & India... not sure about here.

[ladjf]

41. Yes, partially because most of the people here will be illiterate.

[Selteri]

37. REviled like Nixon was until the REwrong history. NT

[Done]

40. If we survive bush, he'll be hated.

It will take decades to clean up his mess.

[leftofthedial]

42. In 20 years, he may be "reaganized"

In 100 years, he'll be reviled, blamed, and ridiculed.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

43. My perception of Reagans place in history

doesn't tell me he is a 'great' president no matter how often the right tries to convince us of such an idea. I'm not sure the majority thinks so either, Reagans presidency is not something Joe Average gets worked up about.
Mr.Bush? Well, I can't believe anyone would think he is anything but one of the WORST presdidents ever, unless you ask a rich Republican...........

[Lydia Leftcoast]

46. The people who are able to see through the hype today

will know what a disaster he is, and their opinion will not have changed with the passage of a mere twenty years. The current cultists will still be cultists, as is true with Reagan.

I disagree with deutsey that Reagan was a good president. His determination to ignore the need to wean ourselves from petroleum dependence and his insane military buildup and support for right-wing butchers in Latin America have warped this country, perhaps irreparably.

[deutsey]

48. I did not say Reagan was a good president

I said I personally revile his presidency but believe people generally believe today that he was a "good" president.

The day I ever say Reagan was a good president will be the day you know I've been brainwashed. I think he was one of the worst things to happen to America.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

49. Whew!

I'm relieved to hear that. :hi:

[deutsey]

51. I still get nauseous when I think about the '80s

Reagan's two terms being a main source of :puke:

:hi:

[MsTryska]

47. depends on who gets to rewrite history methinks....

as with any victor.

[lse7581011]

54. Still President!

probably!

[kentuck]

58. Oh, we'll still be shoveling up his shit 20 years from now...

and longer, in my opinion...

[deutsey]

60. Thanks for the comments

Decades from now I hope that W is seen for the criminal he is and/or a curious aberration before America managed to find its way again.