Those of us who are appalled by the tortures at Abu Ghraib, should read

[KlatooBNikto]

Amy Waldman's fine piece in today's NYT titled SRI LANKAN MAIDS' HIGH PRICE FOR FOREIGN JOBS.This article spells out in detail the brutal fate that awaits Asian women from Sri Lanka, India,Indonesia, Thailand, Cambodia and Phillippines in the Middle East.Countries like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait,the Emirates, even Iraq before the war brought in these women as housemaids to serve in their rich homes.There these innocent women were worked to death seven days a week,were subjected to repeated beatings, abuse,torture rape and many instances even murder. Until I saw Amy Waldman's piece, I had thought these women were the forgotten women of our time.

I have posted about these abuses before here at DU.I am no longer concerned about the Arab world's pleas against our own torture regimes at Abu Ghraib. I have not seen one initiative from any Arab country to admit these abuses and pay reparations to these young and innocent women.Until that is done we at DU must ask the Bush administration why it is silent in the face of these massive abuses that have been going for over thirty years.

WE NEED ACTION NOW.I urge all DUers to send letters condemning these abuses to the Saudi, Egyptian, Kuwaiti and other embassies in the U.S.
I would also like to see if the ACLU or Human Rights watch can file suit on behalf of these women to attach the assets of these wrongdoers.

The Arabs and Muslims will not get any sympathy from me, a dyed in the wool Liberal, until these wrongs are remedied.

[bennywhale]

1. That is a ridiculous position to take

Person A is being tortured by person B
Person C is a fellow countrymen of person B but is doing no torturing
Person D (USA) comes along and tortures person C

And you won't condemn person C's suffering cos of what person B is doing.

That is bad logic.

[KlatooBNikto]

2. I am not condemning the act but the failure to acknowledge it over a

thirty year span and no current action to remedy these failures. At least we have acknowledged those problems at Abu Ghraib even if the Bush administration has failed to set them right. I have more faith in our system of justice than I do in the nonsystem the Arabs have.
I am assuming that because a woman who has had sex with a person, forcibly or otherwise, with a man who is not her husband, is considered damaged goods in those societies, the brutality of the treamtments meted out to these poor women does not surprise me. I am not also surprised by the failure to take action on their behalf because in those societies, women of color are worth less than any living being.

I am sick of doling out my sympathies for these beasts.

[KlatooBNikto]

3. Here is a chance for the Bush administration to redeem itself in the eyes

of the world,in general and in those of our own people at home, in particular.Vigorously seek accountability and action from these Arab abusers and bring them to justice.If that is done, even the taint of Abu Ghraib can be remedied without loss of our credibility.

[lumpy]

31. Our 'credibility' is shot to hell

Bush's war based on lies was the beginning of the downslide of US credibility. Hipocracy won't fly. I.e. the administrations undiplomatic assertions against European and Asian countries.

[bpilgrim]

59. 'our' M$MW's are all over it... DON'T PANIC!

http://images.globalfreepress.com

peace

[bennywhale]

5. Arab states

have brutal regimes, and those socities infested with extremist islam treat women appalingly.

I have less faith in our system than you.

These atrocities are just simply denied by repressive regimes.

Our system merely covers up and looks for scapegoats to further punish.

We are highly skilled at making ourselves sound nicer than the rest.

"Political language is designed to make murder sound respectable and lies truthful"
George Orwell

[KlatooBNikto]

8. While we debate the fine points of whether our regime is more or less

brutal than the Arabs, real women are suffering for no reason.At least in the case of Abu Ghraib we can say that war brings out the beasts in all of us.I am not excusing Abu Ghraib but it has a logical bass to it.The only "crime" of these young women in Arab countries is that they are defenseless, poor and at the mercy of these beasts 24 hours a day with no recourse.

[not systems]

19. No we can't say "war brings out the beasts in all of us" as an excuse...

the laws of war bar it.

The fact the our rogue regime has jumped the fence into
territory only explored by histories greatest killers is
no excuse to adopt an immoral stance.

You can't base your concerns for one wrong on a disregard for
another.

It is whacked.

[Djinn]

17. havn't acknowledged what's happenening in Gitmo though

nor what happens every single day in your state and federal prisons - I guess if anything bad happens to you, you wont be ecpecting any sympathy I mean what have YOU done to stop the institutionalised rape of men and women in US prisons?

I am sick of doling out my sympathies for these beasts.

nice generalisation - the ENTIRE Arabian peninsula (and Afghansitan) is peopled by "beasts"

nope no racism here at DU :puke:

[bpilgrim]

62. not to mention throughout all our prisons in ENEMY COUNTRY

and that 'beast' remark is gross :puke:

what is he thinking? :crazy:

we need to always condemn any and all evil acts, endorsed or condoned, by the elite but we must also never abandon our humanity in that process. starting with our own evil do'ers, were we might have more chance of an IMPACT, should also, always, be our FIRST priority and spreading the word our second.

and i certainly ain't reserving ANY of my OUTRAGE for the alter of another's tyrant's sins, fuck that.

thank GORE he 'INVENTED' the INTERNETs :bounce:

peace

[Taxloss]

4. Can I recommend joining Amnesty International?

The rights of migrants and guest workers - precisely cases like these - and also viloence against women in the home are two of their very big concerns. Membership will allow you to add your pressure to the voices of many, many others.

[KlatooBNikto]

6. I am already a member.What I want to see is legal action in the U.S.

that will accord Class Action Status to these women and allow our courts to attach the assets of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait,and other countries until these women are properly compensated and a mechanism set up to bring out any future abuses.

[Taxloss]

7. Would the victims have to be in the US for that to happen?

[KlatooBNikto]

9. I am not a lawyer but I think if these crimes are defined as human rights

abuses, any country in the world can prosecute these criminals.

[Taxloss]

10. I think you're thinking of war crimes n/t

[Djinn]

38. cool in that case lets also see

half of those countries take the US to court for THEIR grevious human rights abuses, perhaps my country to chip in too on behalf of David HIcks, Mamdouh Habib and Jack Thomas?

[Name removed]

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[KlatooBNikto]

First of all, these are not government related abuses.They are

perpetrated by members of the wealthy class in Arab societies who kiss the asses of Western people and are extremely abusive of people from Asia.In fact, one might say this abuse has a racist origin. I say Arabs and Muslims because in those societies, these foreign women count for nothing, have no rights whatsoever and do not even have any access to legal advice. Those societies, in effect, sanction these behaviors, a fact supported by the lack of any concern about their plight for over thirty years.

I am perfectly willing to accept the label "racist" if that would help these women.

[not systems]

14. Yes. That is the point but why confate two unrelated issues...

1) The US torturing people
2) Slavery in US backed Arab regimes

The idea the you should have less sympathy for some Iraqi
cab driver sodomized by people working for you and paid
by your tax dollars because of the elites of other countries
practicing slavery is twisted.

Why conflate the two things?

Why not oppose both and grant all people human rights
rather than take a racist approach.

Why?

It makes no sense to me.

[KlatooBNikto]

20. Once again I need to remind you to read my post.I have stated that

the abuses of these young women must take precedence over those at Abu Ghraib because they are longstanding. If the Arab Societies will deal with that issue honestly first they will find that I will be on their side.

I believe that many Muslim societies are inacapble of facing this fact because in these hidebound societies, the poor, women of color are just chattel.If you even think of asking for redress of their grievances you will be laughed at to your face.

[not systems]

23. You should wake up and face the fact that...

the abuse and sexual slavery of women is a world wide issue.

It is exists in Israel, Saudi Arabia, India, Germany and the USA.

Don't believe it?

Why do you insist on denying Iraq people their human rights?

Iraq was one of the most sexually liberated Arab societies
before we got involved and start frog marching them back to
the stone ages so they can be as acceptable to us as the
Saudi Arabians.

Do you think it is a coincidence that the worst of the worst on
womens rights are our best allies in the area?

[KlatooBNikto]

24. It is one thing to abuse women in your own societies from socially

sanctioned acts and quite another to abuse workers who have been asked to come and perform household services for rich people. That comes under the rubric of indentured slavery something the Arabs who have come to the U.S. have also practiced quite openly.

I want the crimes of these Arabs owners of these poor women to acknowledge and face prosecution for their crimes.

[not systems]

27. Tell that to the raped nannies of America and Strom Thurman's...

black daughters mom.

You goals may be right but you need to rethink you
argument.

[bush_is_wacko]

12. Are you truly under the impression that EVERY Arab man we have in custody

at Abu Ghirab has tortured and abused one of these women. How absurd is that?

Nothing justifies the torture of prisoners of war.....NOTHING!

[KlatooBNikto]

13. Why are you putting words on my post that I did not say? I said I will be

withholding my support until the abuses of these women which are of a much longer duration and completely unprovoked are remedied first.

The women first, the prisoners after that.

And to emphasize I never connected any of the prisoners at Abu Ghraib to the abuses of these women.

[bush_is_wacko]

16. but you would allow their torture to justify a remedy for the women who

have endured the same? I DID read your post, I assure you. Either you need to reconsider your words or you are justifying the torture of one for the others sake.

Separate the two. They do not belong within the same context. BOTH are criminal acts upon humanity as a whole.

"withholding your support of what?"

[KlatooBNikto]

21. I have never said that the tortures at Abu Ghraib are justified. But

the calculated silence on the part of Arab/Muslim societies when it comes to the abuse of these women tells me that these societies have one yardstick for themselves and something else for the poor victims of their brutality. I cannot separate the two.The Arab societies must take the initiative to address these longstanding abuses first.When they do so, they will restore moral equivalence to this equation.

[bush_is_wacko]

42. Sorry the men in Abu Ghirab aren't committing any acts of torture on women

currently. They don't deserve to endure torture while the rest of the free Muslims work on the problem. I am full agreement with you that these tortures have been occurring for centuries upon ALL women in MANY different societies and that they need to be addressed but making a "political statement" swearing off common human decency for men of Muslim/Arab race/faith is NOT the way to do that. And by the way, there are people that have been working on this very issue for a VERY long time. Until these victims original societies change their practice of devaluing their own women OTHER countries will continue to take advantage of them.

You are correct in your yardstick comparison but again that just doesn't justify doing the same.

[Name removed]

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[KlatooBNikto]

22. Wrong. All I have said is that I want the Arab societies to take steps

to remedy the abuses.If that is not done, it tells me that they are not serious about their own attitude toward these women.

[not systems]

25. If that was "all" you said I would probable agree with you...

instead you defended the most disgusting and shameful
events in resent America history as justified by SOME
Arabs abuses of women.

It would help if you were honest that it was the wrong
way to address your legitimate concern over this issue.

[KlatooBNikto]

28. As I have stated before, I want the abuses and torture of these women

to take precedence over the abuses at Abu Ghraib simply because of the chronology.Even the abuse in Arab countries have been exposed because of reporters like Amy Waldman and not by any Arab reporters.What does that tell you about these societies when they can ignore such brutality for over thirty years?

[not systems]

30. That they are the prototypes for the fascists future state media here. n/t

[not systems]

32. Chronology? What are you talking about...

what does it tell me about you, that you don't care as much about
crimes committed in your name and on your dollar (assuming
that you are old enough to pay taxes) than ones committed
half way around the world by other people.

Since you are a bible quoter:

"You see the mote which is in your brother's eye; but you do not see the beam which is in your own eye.
When you cast out the beam from your own eye, then you will see (clearly) to cast out the mote from your brother's eye."

[clem_c_rock]

34. Good point - and well said.

[KlatooBNikto]

37. Chronolgy FYI means which has been a longstanding problem and originated

earlier. Why it has not even received a passing glance from Arab newspapers itself tells us that Arab societies do not consider these women to be worth their time.

Abu Ghraib came more recently.So, I said first things first.That is chronology for you.

[not systems]

40. Well ain't that SPECIAL... n/t

[clem_c_rock]

36. it sounds like all your facts are coming straight from CNN and

the likes.

Only people who don't know anything about the PNAC agenda still argue that we're on the path of a just cause.

I really don't see any country on earth seeking global domination right now. If you disagree, give me the names of that country and also give some instances where we're not.

I'm not belittling your concern over the injustices done to these women, it's just when you compare them to what we've done in Iraq (look at the last 90 years), Latin America, Africa, etc - we're comparing a pebble to a mountain.

One rule about people that is never broken - the one who has the most power IS going to use it to their advantage over people w/ less power.

[KlatooBNikto]

39. That is simply insulting. I have read V.S. Naipaul's excellent work

AMONG THE BELIEVERS--AN ISLAMIC JOURNEY when it was first published in 1981.I have recently revisited that book and am amazed by the prescience of Naipaul. In that book, which traces Naipaul's travels through Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and other Arab countries, one gets a glimpse of the barbarism and brutality of those societies where Islam's rigid orthodoxy is imposed with an iron hand. Cruelty toward women and those considered inferior ( and that includes these unfortunate young women) is very common. Not to mention beheadings and stonings of women committing adultery and the like.

To give you the observational power of Naipaul, he accurately predicted that the frustrations of Islamic societies against Western societies will find expression in violent explosions throughout the region.This was in 1981.

But, coming back to my defense of these women,I suggest that we petition our Democratic lawmakers to take up their cause first and then using that moral high ground to go after Abu Ghraib. That would be an equitable solution, IMO.

[clem_c_rock]

45. You're not even addressing one thing I mentioned

Pointing out more shortcomings of Arab societies (And I think you're still assuming ALL of them engage in this activity) as a way to achieve "higher moral ground" is only going to make us look like we're trying to cover our atrocities. Which we would be.

You still seem to be coming from this viewpoint (the bush propaganda tactic) that our mission is just, we've just made a few mistakes and we will prevail w/ the betterment of Arab society. Over 100,000 Iraqis dead, 14 PERMANENT bases on the rise, 2 Arab countries invaded later, another arab country surrounded by US bases, filling a country w/ Depleted Uranium, using napalm and chemical weapons on it's population - this is the worst possible damn time to start pointing out the injustices of Arab society.

How about this as a moral high ground: Start by setting a REAL, TANGIBLE EXAMPLE, of a moral just society. You do this by stop fucking invading countries for resource/territorial/political motives and lying about it by disguising under some war against an "Ism". You achieve a moral high ground by first taking a look in the mirror and changing your fucked up ways first. You will never succeed in this "moral high ground" effort w/ bombs, black ops, and secret wars.

When are you going to address the PNAC agenda of world domination. I can't think of a more atrocious idea than that. Seems to me, Hitler had that same goal too.

[KlatooBNikto]

48. That is exactly the opposite of what I am saying. I want Abu Ghraib to be

investigated fully by an independent prosecutor and the perps punished.But equally important and first, I want the Arab perpetrators of violence, rape, abuse , torture and murders against these innocent women be pursued simply because these offenses predate Abu Ghraib by at least thirty years if not more.

[clem_c_rock]

63. Well - let's see here - US and British invasion and political meddling has

predated your claims by about 60 years and the death count and ruined lives caused by these interventions would be on the scale of 10's of thousands for every one of these institutionalized murders of women which you are talking about.

In 1917, the British invaded Iraq w/ over 600,000 troops for the securement of Iraqi oil rights British, US, and French. The British installed the King Faisel puppet regime to secure these oil rights for the next 30 years. Then we have the US CIA darling psychopath, Saddam Hussein, who we employed to dispose of Abdel Kassim in a successfull coup. Said psychopath is installed into power w/ the complete backing and support by the US and is rabidly supported during his worst atrocities for 30+ years. Then the US and British were the biggest UN enforcers of the sanctions which are attributed to the deaths of well over 100,000 Iraqi civilians - mostly woman and children.

This is great benefactor the arab world knows the west for. At this point, trying to now pretend to gain moral high ground by pointing fingers is only lying and pouring salt into a massive wound.

You're effort would be best served by actively opposing the US invasion by ending the occupation immediately. Send those letters to your congress representatives instead to call for the end of this occupation. Volunteer in an anti war group such as Military Families Speak ([e-mail]) out or the countless others. At this point - anyone who is not actively involved in opposing this war is guilty of complicity - especially if they want to argue that this is a democracy.

You just seem to be in incredible denial about the history of US atrocities around the world.

[Name removed]

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[clem_c_rock]

66. I'm not saying that - I'm saying when you're comparing the the death tolls

of the the 2 issues (American invasions, wars, political manipulation VS. the deaths by institutionalized women human rights abuses), the ratio is, again, about 10,000 to one. Are you denying this? If so - let's give some examples.

In my mind - solving problems of unjust deaths should be first addressed where the most people are being killed.

[Name removed]

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[KlatooBNikto]

26. I don't know where you are from but I as a citizen of this country am

proud of one thing.We are willing to expoose the abuses of our rulers and willing to face the consequences of our acts.Even if our administrations go against our principles, there are many like me and the good folks here at DU who would call into question any transgressions of those rulers.

The fact that I, as an American, am willing to stand up for the "poorest of the poor" what the Bible tells us "the least among us"
may not agree with you.But so be it.

[Name removed]

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[KlatooBNikto]

41. The racism is the one that causes Arabs to treat these defenseless

women like so much chattel. I have never said that all Arabs are involved in these.Only the upper classes who can afford these housemaids. But even a cursory reading of Naipaul should tell you that Islamic societies have a different version jurisprudence.Justice tempered with mercy is an unknown concept and so is the idea that verdicts must be based on evidence.The presumption of innocence is simply unknown.

[not systems]

44. How many people are executed here in the US every year?

"Justice tempered with mercy is an unknown concept"

"the idea that verdicts must be based on evidence"

"The presumption of innocence is simply unknown"

You simple have not been keeping up with developments
in the American "justice" system.

[Solon]

47. But remember, we don't do it in the public square anymore!!!!

That makes us more "civilized" after all. ;)

[Djinn]

49. ah no that'd be misogyny not racism

domestic servants are treated badly in these nations due to sexism and the usual disdain the rich have for the poor - plenty of US domestic workers could tell you stories that'd make your hair curl - particularly "illegal" workers - nothing to do with racism.

That said how does ANY of this justify your calling people living in the Arabian peninsula "beasts" and deciding that you just don't care about human rights violations against Arabs and Muslims because Arabs and Muslims commit them??

Can you say NON SEQUITUR

[KlatooBNikto]

56. All you have to do is to ask anyone from the Indian Subcontinent

or Thailand or Cambodia to understand what I am talking about.The Arabs have a particular disdain for people from these poorer countries because of their poverty and their skin color. It is not a gender based discrimination.

Those same people will also tell you that a white woman from our country will be treated very differently than a black woman.The best incident that captures this for me is when Louis Gossett, Jr. was selected to play Anwar Sadat in the movie of the same name several years ago.There was a huge outcry in Egypt because a black man was selected to play an Egyptian.

And where do you think the genocidal slaughter of the black people in Sudan comes from? The Arab Sudanese are using their superior firepower to kill these tribesmen because they are sitting on a vast pool of oil that the Arabs covet.

And don't even get me started on the Arab involvement in the slave trade.

[Djinn]

58. You really need to ask why

you're so intent on viewing these these evils as relevant to Arab and/or Muslim cultures alone. Have a look into sex slavery occuring in your own country, look into the sanctioned rape of prisoners in your own country, look into violence against women and immigrant workers in your owncountry, in short "first cast out the beam
out of thine own eye".

You're very own country has been directly responsible for the systematic torture and murder of hundreds of thousands of people across the globe for a long time now - if the examples in my other post don't convince you, you can research the fingerprints of Uncle Sam on the installation of Pinochet, torture and dissapearances in Argentina, the assasination of Patrice Lumumba and the bombing of Cambodia.

[clem_c_rock]

33. Then why are we not mentioning Falluja and the napalm

and chemical weapons we've been using over there.

I agree that, yes, there are folks such as the ones on DU that are willing to call into question any transgressions of those rulers. I will not give this nation of majority rednecks very much credit for our position in the world. The idea that the PNAC war machine came to power so easily is grounds for massive shame. At least the German people were beyond destitute when they allowed Hitler to rise to power.

Anyone trying to make light on the way we've handled Abu Garaib is complately out of their mind. Until we see the prosecutions go up the chain of command, the way Abu Garaib has been handled is a nightmare and while Americans feel that justice has been done, noone in the Arab world is agreeing.

When we have so much trash to clean up in our own backyard, it's very difficult to yell at people for their own trash.

There are higher values in this world than pathetic patriotism.

[bpilgrim]

35. applause

best homer simpson rant, ever :toast:

peace

[Name removed]

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[Djinn]

50. not to mention that Iraqi prisoners are

supposed to shut up about torture by US and allies because SAUDI (an ALLY) treat women like shit??!!??

[Solon]

46. Why confine it to the Middle East at all...

Why not what Russia is doing in Chechnya, or Sudan's slavery, conflicts in Africa, what happened in the Balkans relatively recently, or how about Japan? Have they paid any reparations to China or Korea for WW2, if not, by what right should they complain about any of their soldiers being captured or killed in Iraq? Same could be said for the good old USA. After all, we, with help from the British, created this mess in the first place. By what rights are we to claim the high road, we have been raping and pillaging places such as Honduras to the Philipines for over 100 years. Doesn't this take precedence over whatever happens to these poor women. Why is this a zero sum game at all? We could play it all day, and it would resolve nothing. Injustice is injustice, it doesn't matter where, why, or how it happened, only that it is stopped, and shining a light on it where ever it rears its ugly head is the most effective way to do it, along with political pressure. Whether it is virtual of real slavery of these women you talk about, or Abu Graib, both are atrocious, why do we HAVE to concentrate on one and not the other, why not both, or is it simply too hard to concentrate on more than one injustice at a time?

[Fleshdancer]

51. But not all Arabs and Muslims are committing human rights abuses

If I could do one thing before I die, it would be to convince the world that feminism is synonymous with supporting human rights. We live in a world where acid splashing occurs in India, where female castration is forced in Africa, sex slaves exist on probably every continent (okay, maybe not Antarctica), forced maid slave labor in the ME, sweat shops which typically employ mostly young women are located throughout Asia, Mexico, etc.

Our own country still deals with domestic violence, rape, lower wages and an acceptable assumption that women are less intelligent/capable than men. I don't care what anyone says, we still have a long way to go.

One atrocity, no matter how horrible, can not and will not cancel out the atrocities carried out by our fellow Americans. The biggest problem I have with Abu Ghraib is not the torture...people are tortured every day. The problem I have is that the acts were committed by Americans. This is not the America that was promised to me as a child and I'll be damned if this is the America I pass down to my daughter.

The situation you bring up is absolutely horrific. We need people like you to bring these issues to light because it needs to be discussed and stopped. However, the Iraqis who were attacked by dogs, pulled on a leash, stripped naked and "dog piled" are not responsible for the wealthy Saudis or Kuwaitis who employ women in order to enslave and rape them. Let's punish the guilty and not generalize all Muslims or Arabs. I know too many personally who don't deserve to be generalized in that way. Do you want the people responsible for Abu Ghraib to represent you?

[Catrina]

52. Because of Abu Ghraib

the US has zero moral authority, so it would be a waste of time for us anymore to lecture another country on their behavior.

I would have thought most people realized that. You seem to think the world gives a damn what the US says about abuse, or human rights or anything else for that matter.

Children were abused in Abu Ghraib, and as far as chronology, we are still doing it, and have been for many years, at the very least, supporting others who have committed the worst of abuses against humanity.

As far as the cause you espouse, it is certainly a serious issue, but it is worldwide, not just a ME problem. I have a Filipina friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for a number of years ~ she was not abused. I'm sure there are many who have been, but just as many who have not.

I am astounded that you think this is the country to address human rights issues. Our democratic reps can't even get Congress to address the issues at Abu Ghraib.

[Djinn]

53. Yeah I loved the "chronology" bit too

How's this for a chronology:

Creation of the KYP, Greece, 1940's

James Becket, an American attorney sent to Greece by Amnesty, wrote in 1969 that some torturers told prisoners that some of their equipment had come as US military aid. One item was a special “thick white double cable” whip that was “scientific, making their work easier”; another was the head screw, known as an “iron wreath”, which was progressively tightened around the head or ears.

Creation of the SAVAK, Iran, 1950's

According to a former CIA analyst on Iran, Jesse J. Leaf, SAVAK was instructed in torture techniques by the Agency.

After the revolution, Iranians film madeby the CIA for SAVAK on how to torture women.

Anti Castro forces (wholly supported by the CIA) Bolivia, 1967

Interrogation houses were set up where Bolivians suspected of aiding Che’s guerrilla army were brought for questioning and sometimes tortured. When the Bolivian interior minister learned of the torture, he was furious and demanded that the CIA put a stop to it

Operation Phoenix, South Vietnam 1964 - 1975

between 20,000 - 40,000 tortured and killed

This is all without even touching on the happy role of the SOA in Latin America

Then there's this from Amnesty

“From September 1991 to December 1993 the U.S. Commerce Department had issued over 350 export licenses worth more than $27 million for:

saps (bludgeons)
thumb-cuffs
thumb-screws
leg-irons
shackles and handcuffs
specially designed implements of torture
straight jackets
plastic handcuffs
police helmets and shields

United States of America — Rights for All October 1998


So tell us again KlatooBNikto how "they" started torturing first???

[wellst0nev0ter]

54. What A Stupid Fucking Post

I'm surprise it's not closed down already, it's such a flamebait.

Yeppers, let's let the MUSLIM Albanians be ethnically cleansed because the shared the same religion as some Saudi sadist.

Or, let's flip the situation around, and allow some genocide to occur to some Christian Salvadorans because Christian Serbs participated in ethnic cleansing.

If there is a grandiloquent name for this sick logical fallacy, I'm too tired to look it up.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[not systems]

73. It is easy to point out...

"my post was meant to highlight the fact America is not the only country abusing people"

Not only that but:

"I am no longer concerned about the Arab world's pleas against our own torture regimes at Abu Ghraib."

and

"Arabs and Muslims will not get any sympathy from me"

By your consent:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/04/28/60minutes/main691602.shtml

<snip>

"As she stood in front of him, she slowly started to unbutton her Army blouse. She had on underneath the Army blouse a tight brown Army T-shirt, touched her breasts, and said, 'Don't you like these big American breasts?'" says Saar. "She wanted to create a barrier between this detainee and his faith, and if she could somehow sexually entice him, he would feel unclean in an Islamic way, he would not be able to pray and go before his God and gain that strength, so the next day, maybe he would be able to start cooperating, start talking to her."

But the prisoner wasn’t talking, so Saar said the interrogator increased the pressure.

"She started to unbutton her pants and reached and put her hands in her pants and then started to circle around the detainee. And when she had her hands in her pants, apparently she used something to put what appeared to be menstrual blood on her hand, but in fact was ink," says Saar.

"When she circled around the detainee, she pulled out her hand, which was red, and said, 'I'm actually menstruating right now, and I'm touching you. Does that please your God? Does that please Allah?' And then he kind of got pent up and shied away from her, and she then took the ink and wiped it on his face, and said, 'How do you like that?'"

<snip>

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fujiyama]

55. I don't understand

what one has to do with the other...

Sure, theocratic societies in the ME are backwards in terms of human rights. SA is a great example. They whip people for "acting" gay.

I also know that this administration doesn't give a single shit for human rights - here or anywhere else around the globe. They give billions in aid to dictators all over the world that purpotrate terrorism and human rights abuses.

The US CLAIMS to be a shining example of human rights, dignity, and liberty. By torturing people, we are hypocrites to the greatest degree.

What you are in effect saying is what Joe Lieberman and several others said after torture at Abu Ghraib first broke out about a year ago. They said "but they never apologized for 9/11 so why should we apologize for this?".

And the reasoning is morally bankrupt.

You are right to be concerned for what happens to these women abused by the wealthy oil barons of the ME. I also agree that there is a major problem with human rights in Arab societies, but there is no "priority" here of any sorts, that marks our abuses as "less important" than theirs.

The fact that various abuses are taking place by the wealthy in several ME countries doesn't excuse or lessen our treatment of men and children detained under an illegal and unjust war - that too when many held are in fact innocent.

Either way, one doesn't justify the other.

If you want to discuss the abuse of imported labor in ME nations, fine. It's certainly important - though at the same time complicated. Many of those that go to the ME stay only temporarily and do end up and sending money back home. India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, and many others depend heavilly on these workers for investment. In fact, it would be in the benefit of most of these Arab nations to actually begin training their own workers for jobs because the cushy oil welfare states are about to collapse.

A more apt analogy to your abuse scenario is that of globalization the abuses that occur in that. Those with wealth (multinational corporations) exploit the less fortunate and this often leads to sweatshops. The same goes with those with money in the ME. They import cheap labor and abuse it.

That's how wealth and power work and it's nothing new. This country imports thousands of workers to work at less than minimum wage, with no benefits of any sort.

[KlatooBNikto]

57. While we at DU rightly condemn our own administrations for their

sins of the past and present and those of Israel against the Palestinians, the minute extensively documented torture, rapes, nurders and other small and large abuses in Arab countries bring on cries of racism even though the Arabs are guilty of pervasive racism against these working young women over a thirty year period.I do not want Liberals to become apologists for these Arab torturers by staying silent in the face of documented evidence.I want to see action on the part of our administration and from our Democratic Representatives.If we do not stand up for these poor defenseless women, we will not be the kind of people we presume ourselves to be. We also need to take into account the mass murders of the refugees in Sudan committed by, who else, Arab Sudanese.

[bennywhale]

60. I have sympathy with your point

and feel that it was only the way you worded your post that brought such a rebuke.

Implied in your logic was the asseretion that we shouldn't be bothered about torturing arabs cos they torture these women.

I'm sure thats not what you meant, and perhaps you should start another thread on the same subject with different wording.

I also agree that people often shout racism whae criticising other regimes including anti-semitism when criticising Isreal.

Human Rights Abuses are worldwide, and although wars such as Iraq kill tens of thousands of people we should pursue these abusers wherever they are.

Burma for example, according to reports, have recently been dropping gas on tribes in the North, and thousands vanish there each year.
Our allies in central asia are brutal, including in Usbeckistan, reports of political dissedents being boiled to death gopt a British ambassador recalled and sacked.
Central Africa and Sudan rape is used as aweapon by the various militias and armies and child soldiers are drugged and forced to kill as young as eight years old.

Pressure should definetely be brought but won't be the only angle to take is through NGO's unfortunately.

But i certainly agree we should be bolder in criticising abusers whoever and where ever they are. The arab lands have a very long history of slavery and this should be acknowledged and attacked.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PsychoDad]

64. Glass houses....

VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN IN THE UNITED STATES

MURDER . Every day four women die in this country as a result of domestic violence, the euphemism for murders and assaults by husbands and boyfriends. That's approximately 1,400 women a year, according to the FBI. The number of women who have been murdered by their intimate partners is greater than the number of soldiers killed in the Vietnam War.

SEXUAL ASSAULT . Every year approximately 132,000 women report that they have been victims of rape or attempted rape, and more than half of them knew their attackers. It's estimated that two to six times that many women are raped, but do not report it. Every year 1.2 million women are forcibly raped by their current or former male partners, some more than once.

THE TARGETS . Women are 10 times more likely than men to be victimized by an intimate. Young women, women who are separated, divorced or single, low- income women and African-American women are disproportionately victims of assault and rape. Domestic violence rates are five times higher among families below poverty levels, and severe spouse abuse is twice as likely to be committed by unemployed men as by those working full time. Violent attacks on lesbians and gay men have become two to three times more common than they were prior to 1988.

http://www.now.org/issues/violence/stats.html


As you said, The only "crime" of these young women in america is that they are defenseless, poor and at the mercy of these beasts 24 hours a day .

I'm sure that the next time an american is killed, you'll be among the first to express that you have no sympathy for the warmongering, rapist americans who deserve all they get for the way they treat their women and poor.

[Moderator]

75. I am locking this....

it is flamebait, and has resulted in a flame war.