isn't dying in a war based on lies dying in vain?

[mopaul]

every damn reason given for this war was a lie, every little boy and girl in iraq who died, died over lies. every mother and grandmother who died in iraq, died for lies. every soldier who went there to fight for democracy and freedom really fought for billionaires and maniacs.

didn't they basically all die in vain?

[madrchsod]

1. yes

[Hardrada]

2. You are correct.

And today they have these wretched newspaper articles about proud grandparents (esp. doting grandmother proud to have two or more grandchildren serving (being serfs or slaves really) in Iraq thus combining a hokey commercially driven holiday with an insane commercially driven war and people swallow this stuff whole and go to sleep at night and wonder in the morning why their dreams were so terrible!

[FizzFuzz]

3. that's how it looks to me

or maybe from a metaphysical standpoint they're dying to make humanity take a look and change things?

Usually no one changes anything until the pain gets too bad. Sad thing.

[Elwood P Dowd]

4. Yep

Just like Vietnam.

I sometimes think about the people I served with in the Army who died in vain during Vietnam. I think about the millions of innocent Vietnamese killed in vain. I think about the millions of lives that have been adversely affected because their love ones survived Vietnam. I think about the billions of dollars wasted that could have been used to find a cure for cancer or furnish health care for the poor. And here we are doing it all over again!

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

5. Why else do you think the "morans" demand we support the war?

They don't want to think their children died in vain. It's ass-backwards logic, of course, but that's why the soldiers and their families think that way.

[kliljedahl]

13. Exactly

They have to justify it somehow, because if they don't, they'd have to admit it was wrong. If they admit it was wrong....


Keith’s Barbeque Central

[pie]

6. Yes, completely.

[Just Me]

7. Fulfilling your contract and your duty via that contract, is not in vain.

Be careful there, mopaul. It's one thing to focus on those who are betraying the people and abusing their power,...it's quite another to render worthless or diminished whose who are being betrayed and abused. Stick with the predators.

Know what I mean?

[Joebert]

8. Yep

Signing up to pay for education, learn skills, and travel/escape their home town.

Those are some reasons people join.

They're not in a position to decide that they don't want to go when they're told to.

Unless you're in certain Air National Guard units...


If somebody is going to talk draft, I'd rather see mandatory service. Every single person age X-Y will join and be available.

No college exemptions, no congressional pardons, 100% go.

I am of course totally against any form of involuntary service, but until there is a way to prove that a draft isn't our way of reducing the population of the poor in this country, it has to affect everybody.

[wtmusic]

22. that's absolutist in the other extreme

at a certain point one has to say damn the contract--this isn't right. Refuse to fight. Many have, already.

Some quite enjoy the killing. Others hate it. Should it make a difference when it's all over how you felt when you pulled the trigger?

[sweetheart]

9. a warrior's death

A warrior surrender's all for the greater good. If the person has
done this with a noble heart, then theirs is the reward of heaven.
If they are killed for simply being a stooge in the civil service
duped in to signing up to get out of poverty, then it is just another
death.

There is no generalization. Some deaths are heroic, like that great
woman marla who fought the good fight and died a valiant death.

Perhaps "in vain" is a bit strong.

They certainly died for a war criminal's vanity. As much as soldiers
who fought in every war the world over, all of them beginning with the
crime of aggression, it seems all soldiers sacrafice for the foolish
vanity of others.

[Festivito]

10. No. Dying for love of a country, even one that lies is not dying in vain.

Everything else is vain, but love is not.

They did/did not die in vain use is oft trite. But, misuse of an expression does not redefine the human sacrifice.

The lost may be mislead, misguided, misinformed, but the vanity is not charged to them.

They, those who used other's love of country for their own vain purposes die in vain. There is a commandment: Take not the name of God in vain. And a passage: God is love. Cursed be those who used love of country for their own vain profit. Thus as typewritten, thus is done.

[mwb970]

11. I don't know about "in vain"...

But it gets me when they are said to have died "defending their country", since our country was not threatened. Saying they were "defending freedom" is vaguely defensible, but still dicey IMO.

[Malva Zebrina]

12. Yes

they were actually murdered by Bush--sent into a situation with lies and whose main purpose is not to bring the vaunted "freedom" Bush loves to throw around as his unique signature, but to guard the spoils, ie the oil fields and to satisy their AWOL Commander in Chief's narcissism, greed and ego.

Yes they ALL died in vain because of the lies that propelled them there.

Not many seem to care. Zygotes are more important to those who voted for Bush.

Give em a medal or two--that oughta satisfy the little stupids who are so impressionable as to think they are bringing freedom to the entire world. :sarcasm:

Cut the "freedom" crap.

[Disturbed]

14. Another tough concept from Mopaul.

I am trying to find an answer to the concept but so far I cannot do so.

The Military and Mercs are the employees of the Govt. G.I. means Govt. Issue does it not. Are they not the tool that is used to further an agenda? Can we blame the tool when it is used in a unjust manner?

[mopaul]

15. only a draft could make it more unjust, ala vietnam

i certainly don't blame anyone but bushco.

[oblivious]

46. I blame everyone who supported this war.

The corporate media, the US lawmakers, including Dems, who allowed it, ignorant citizens who chose to believe the propaganda when the truth was easily available, discussion board hacks, paid or not, who used every propaganda trick in the book to disrupt honest discussion in a search for the truth, religious leaders...

Well, I guess I could go on forever, and I know you agree with me.

[Malva Zebrina]

17. Who is blaming the tool?

I am saying they are dying, indeed that they have been murdered, by Bush. I am saying that they died in vain because of Bush and his lies.

I am also saying that the repeated ad nauseum moniker of "freedom" is something that has been marketed and sold by the Bush ministry of propaganda.

There is no "freedom" to defend at all in this atrocity and in this slaughter and if you believe that, then you are on the side of Bush and his lies.

There is NO freedom at all involved in this war and there is NO freedom at all involved in the propagandist slogan of a war on terror. NONE

It is nothing but an abstract that stirs up an emotion that we indeed need to kill people by the hundreds of thousands for "freedom"

That is bullshit.

[Lexingtonian]

16. um, not quite

What positive will remain from this war is the toppling of Saddam Hussein and one more Stalinist-type dictatorship, to be replaced by something almost as bad. The 300 American and 25,000 Iraqi lives lost in March and April 2003 may have been worth that bit of difference.

The other 1,300 American and several hundred foreigners' lives, and 70,000 Iraqi lives, lost since...to me those were lost to vanity and lies- American vanities and lies, Iraqi vanities and lies, carelessness and callousness and barbarity and grudges. They are victims of the shameless brutishness and the like that our peoples- and the many aiders and abettors worldwide- still have in them. And let's not forget the other 10,000 Americans and million Iraqis who will bear the scars.

Moloch and Mammon haven't left us yet, and their idolators have given them yet another celebration.

[Karenina]

20. What color was that

topple-the-brutal-dictator kool-aid? That stuff must have a SERIOUS after-taste.

[Lexingtonian]

26. don't try

the "but Saddam was not such a bad dictator" argument. Dictatorship has the murder of people as an inherent characteristic if you've learned much history. And I would've guessed that as a Germanophile you'd know that.

[Karenina]

29. How 'bout that *dauphin, eh?

:evilgrin:

[Lexingtonian]

36. He lives in your head

but not in mine.

[G_j]

37. "may have been worth that bit of difference"?

what difference?

I'm speechless....

You didn't mention that child malnutrition has nearly doubled since the invasion.

This country (now a "US colony"?) that is being raped and privatized appears to be spiraling into terrible civil war also.

worth what? the oil?

[jazzjunkysue]

18. Yep.

[Taxloss]

19. Depends what they were doing when they died.

[wtmusic]

21. interesting perspective

but problematic, too.

If they were bombing wedding parties one day, then the next day were killed in a mortar attack while eating lunch, do they go to heaven?

:shrug:

[Taxloss]

25. Well, I don't believe in an afterlife - that wasn't my point.

The question was whether they had died "in vain". So to take an exaggerated example - if they died saving a busload of kids from certain death, then no, they wouldn't have died in vain. The kids wouldn't think so.

That's an extreme to demonstrate my point, but I'm sure anyone could think of lesser scenarios.

I would like to believe that even soldiers who don't think we have a place in Iraq go about their duties in such a manner that they would not consider themselves to have died in vain.

In other words, by suggesting that all soldiers in Iraq die "in vain" is to demigrate the individual's effort to a small degree. That particular soldier, having no say over his situation, might have done his or her best to make good on it and consider a death in that line of duty to be as noble as any.

All the same, considering the random and brutal nature of both the occupation and the resistance, this is a long shot. But outstanding instances of human sacrifice are found everywhere.

[DanCa]

23. Waittaminute you expect christian integrity from the fristians :)

These are the same people who think that its murder to kill one embryo but its okay to kill a thousand persons in a unjustified war. Awar that was condemened by the catholic church IIRC.
Casting falsehoods on kerry's military service, screwing the poor, worshiping Dubya and tricks of light as false gods, and keeping my sick and out of church because I have parkinsons and want stem cell research. How can we take these loons seriously.
Remember one minute there talking about the quality of life, the next there talking about sponge bob square pants. These guys are insane.

[mopaul]

24. the great sin of the republicans is that they are LIVING in vain

they are loons, and more people are waking up to that fact.

[July]

27. My $.02

Most of the soldiers in Iraq are doing what they believe is right (that doesn't mean it IS right, but they are following their consciences). Unfortunately, their LEADERS (so-called) are doing what THEY KNOW IS WRONG. Those who die are, for the most part, trying to do their duty. That is honorable. But their deaths occur because their leaders are dishonorable.

Did they die in vain? Well, they didn't have to die, and with smarter leaders, they wouldn't have died. But their lives and their commitment can still be honored.

When we lose someone in a tragic car accident or to a devastating disease, we don't say that they died in vain. We say that fate was cruel, but that their lives had value, in themselves and to the rest of us. I look at this war the same way -- a cruel fate that takes lives that didn't have to be taken. The lives themselves have meaning, however.

The fuckers who cost them their lives -- well, their LIVES, not their deaths, are in vain. They have revealed their corrupt and deceitful hearts, as well as their willingness to let others pay for their delusions of grandeur.

[DanCa]

28. I agree

It's this administrations politics I am mad at. Not the men and women in uniform. They have no say so as to where they go.

[Qanisqineq]

47. delete

oops! reply in wrong place!

[The Stranger]

30. Of course it is.

But no one will really admit it. You see, the emperor wears no clothes, and on this question, everyone is an emperor.

[mopaul]

42. it's a tough thing to admit

and no one wants to

[Bouncy Ball]

31. You are brave to say so.

It's hard to say something like that. But yes, the sickening feeling in my gut that's been there for two years has been there because all of this loss of life has been completely unnecessary.

[bvar22]

32. They didn't die "defending America" from the Iraqis

They didn't die protecting OUR freedoms from the Iraqis.

They didn't die protecting OUR Democracy from the Iraqis.

They didn't die protecting Home, Mom, Truth, Justice, baseball, television, Disneyland, or the American Way from the Iraqis.

They died IN VAIN.

They are NO LESS HEROES.
They did their duty.
They followed their orders.
They deserve our respect and our LOVE.


They were used.
They were lied to.
They still died in vain.

So sad.

[dogman]

33. There are probably two levels that have to be looked at.

In a general sense I would say yes. On a personal level it is not so clear. Does the soldier on the losing side of a war die in vain? Some of these men have sacrificed their lives for their fellow man. Some have gone to this war believing it was right. Their personal support system, family, community, and friends told them they were right. In spite of the outcome or our personal sense of morality, many have died honorably. If their dying brings recognition that the war is wrong, we can only hope it wasn't in vain. Unfortunately the powers that be ignore truth and history. It is definitely a waste of life.

[warrior1]

34. Yes, mopaul

Every last one of them have died in vain.

[Tactical Progressive]

35. No, they didn't die in vain

Any more than anyone fighting for what they believe is a good cause, who dies, or even just fails at it, did so 'in vain'.

If a young, idealistic kid goes over there to do what he believes is to help an oppressed people, then I believe they died for a good cause, because that was what was in their heart.

If you reverse it, and someone goes over there to 'kill as many ragheads as he can point a gun at', in the context of a truly well-intentioned larger effort, or in a process of which good is accomplished out of the larger mission, I wouldn't consider that person to have died in a noble cause.

I put alot of emphasis on motivation and what is in people's hearts, not just the outcome. It's not everything, but it is a large part of any effort.

[Totally Committed]

38. I don't believe "died in vain" is correct...

but having died for a lie is a grotesque abomination. Bush asked these young men and women to march into the jaws of hell for his lies. Since he says he believes in God, may he die begging God to forgive his immortal soul.

TC

[SammyWinstonJack]

39. Yes they have died in vain.

And it isn't over, but 'beautiful mind' babs 'Bill Clinton is my son' bush, doesn't waste time thinking of those who her evil off spring sent to die for lies, and neither does he apparently. On to Iran! USA! USA! USA!

[BigBearJohn]

40. I shudder to even THINK of a son of mine dying in this war or any war

Talk about unfathomable. War! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing.

[Stinky The Clown]

41. I can certainly call it a waste. I'm not sure I can go with calling it ...

'in vain'.

Let's assume that most kids who join the military did so for one of a few simple reasons:

Duty
Self imrpovement (like, maybe, college benefits when they get out)
Family tradition
Love of guns and fighting
(no doubt there are more reasons)

In the case of the first three, their deaths are, to me, wastes. A squandering of our riches. I lay that blame directly and fully on the doorstep of the cabal. Did they die in vain? Possibly. But pople who die in a righteous but losing effort also can be said to ahve died in vain. To have one's death be purely a waste is a different matter. So yeah ... for me ..... I see it as a waste.

In the fourth case ...... I'm not so sure ......

[Just Me]

43. Soldiers fulfill their contract. NeoCONs shit on us all.

There is honor,...and there are those who piss on, advantage themselves of,...our honor.

:grr:

[Poiuyt]

44. What's really bad is that our soldiers are dying to keep Bush in power

[Lost147]

45. nearly every war in history has been fueled by underlying economic factors

The first step as a president or a leader of any country to victory is to convince your population otherwise! You gotta creatively fling the words honor, freedom, democracy etc to fill in every crack. Ever since Vietnam government credibility just plummeted. No one will willingly risk their life and die if you tell them, "it's so we can further our national corporate interests". You gotta fuel up that propaganda machine and just start pumping the stuff out so your population can't escape it. You need to demonify your enemy, glorify your nation and allies and create a strong sense of nationalism. Sometimes you get lucky and your population is already pumped up and behind you 100% (but this is really rare)

Soon you should have an obedient and loyal mass at your disposal, then you just gotta train them, equip them, and send them off to battle. These "lies" from the Iraq War are really no different than those in every other war. These are just poorly implemented on an already suspicous population so it's kind of doomed for failure. Heh I'm not advocating that this is wrong, just kind of the natural order of war. Hell from all the history I've studied I think the history of mankind will best be summarized with the phrase, "killing people and taking their stuff."

[Qanisqineq]

48. I don't know if that can be determined yet

Now, don't jump to any conclusions that there is even the tiniest cell in my body that agrees with this war, but...

IF by chance some good were to come out of this war (getting rid of Saddam was good but the whole premise behind the war was crap and now the Iraqis are dying by the thousands), then I would say no, they did not die in vain.

I think, for me, it is just too painful to say they died in vain. I see them every day, those getting ready to leave for Iraq and those coming back. I watched my husband go and even though he was 100% against this war, the only thing that kept him going was the HOPE that it might not all be in vain.

[sleipnir]

49. Sshhhh,....Quiet Fool!! You'll wake the masses....

If they find out we just lost 1600 of our best for a lie, they might just get up out of their chairs and revolt or at the least vote the Republicans out of office.

Quiet down!! For the sake of humanity and Republican moneymaking schemes!!