One Christian's view on Waynesville

[Perky]

As an Evangelical I am both appaled and outraged.

THis guy, this pastor response is intolerant and bigoted and the SBC ought to sit this guy down for a while.


A pastor is certainly entitled to his opinions. But to effectively excommunicate believing brothers and sister in the Faith that unites us all is the height or arrogance and hypocrisy. It is pharasaical

Jesus reached out to the larger community at all times to label anyone other than a card-carrying Republican as a heretic appalls me as an evangelical who want to see all who would seek it, find the consolation of Christ.

This grand inquisition does nothing but scare away people who need Jesus in their lives. It builds dividing walls when the CHurch should be extending its hand of friendship to anyone who might entertain the claims of the Gospel.

This man ought to be deeply ashamed of his heinous, foolish efforts at purification.

Judgement begins in the house of God my brother. You reap judgemnent upon your own head when you shun God's elect.

For leadership in the SBC to do nothing except say its a local matter is the moral equvalent of Pontuis Pilate washing his hands.

Now as a Democrat...Where the Hell is Howard Dean on this travesty. He ought to be making hay and stirring debate. This is a golden opportunity to create a much needed dialogue.

[snowbear]

1. Yes!!

Quote: .."Where the Hell is Howard Dean on this travesty. He ought to be making hay and stirring debate. This is a golden opportunity to create a much needed dialogue"

:toast: I agree!!

I brought that up last night, but it wasn't met with a lot of enthusiasm at the time.. :-(

[iconoclastic cat]

2. My off-topic question: Do you feel that Evangelical Christianity is

conflated with Fundamentalism in the minds of many people? I catch myself doing this occasionally.

[Perky]

3. I am probably conflated myself

Yes,,, I actually thinkg there is a scholarly debate to be had on inerrancy. I certainly bleive that it is iportant for the church to retain an orthodocy. SO as long as it my view of Fundamanetalism I am fine.

[Bluerthanblue]

10. sorry to continue the de-rail,

but i agree there is a REAL problem with inerrancy- something most folks don't want, or can't 'address'- because that takes away the 'faith' necessiary to believe, and the 'evidence' that is 'pointed to' by those who seek justification for thier 'beliefs'-

If one really examines the origin of the bible, the council of Nicea, the schisms and division that accompanied it's inception, it shakes the notion of infallability-

The bible can and has been twisted to support everything from slavery to womens oppression, to murder- it's a 'cheat sheet' in my view,- full of many Truths, but not inerrant, or EQUAL to God-

[Perky]

23. ummm the Bible is not the problem

It is the fraility of man and his interpretation that get us into trouble.

I just can't believe that an all knowing and wise God would leave with either Historicalrecord or Biblical text that was in error. That simply is not logical.

[Bluerthanblue]

25. not sure if your

pulling my leg, or i'm reading you wrong-

i believe an all knowing and wise God is who s/he is regardless of what humans desire to make 'him' out to be-

Logic isn't something i base my life on- logic says a bumblebee can't fly, but i've witnessed the error in that- logic says that if you make a 'perfect' world- (the garden of eden) there would be no way to mess that perfection up- (evil)

Logic would say that anything that God wouldn't need 'man' to make his will known, and if he USED man to do that, that it would indeed be without contradiction, and clearly understood by all.

Constantine had more to do with the final product that most of us hold in our hands called 'the bible' than God did- But, Jesus said blessed are those who haven't seen, yet still believe- and That 'great cloud of witnesses' who lived before the 'bible' didn't need a book to have faith. They wouldn't have 'faith' then- they'd have evidence- and no need for hope, or belief.

[Perky]

26. Actually

I wan being honest but just a tad unclear.

I have modest concern ove the ierrancyu issue only because my mind can't reconcile certain apparent discrepancies.

My point was that I can't fathom that God would allow the Bible to come into existence and be so central to Christian Faith all thess years and then pass judgement on our eternal souls usind a another standard.

Can we misinterpret, mis-apply and misuse Scripture? Of course. We are fallible mortals who see dimly at best.

That is what Grace and Jusgment are there for

[katusha]

4. there is also a larger, non-religious, aspect of this, too

in all this debate about the theological implications of the excommunications i think we may have missed something.

no democracy can survive in a climate where there is retribution for the citizen's vote choice, in other words "vote this way or else". if people vote a certain way because they fear societal, religious, cultural, or governmental retribution then you don't really have a democracy.

[Jade Fox]

5. Thanks for checking in!

"Judgement is mine, sayeth the Lord."

How do these folks manage to ignor things like that?

[RevCheesehead]

6. a church that doesn't want "sinners"

will soon be out of business. :evilgrin:

Seriously, whom will they hate next?
Some theologies are inherently dysfunctional - they are hate-based, and rely on victim-persecutor-rescuer to fulfil all their emotional needs.

That ain't religion - that's codependency. O8)

[AspenRose]

13. Considering that around 90% of blacks voted Democratic

Black churches look like a "good" target for their hatred

(e.g. "They're not REAL Christians").

Watch for it....

[ikojo]

29. The Repugnicans and others on the "religious" right are actively

courting black churches and they are using the shared hatred of homosexuals as the tie that binds.

[Raksha]

21. Good observation, Rev. Cheesehead!

I'm gonna remember that one!

>>Some theologies are inherently dysfunctional - they are hate-based, and rely on victim-persecutor-rescuer to fulfil all their emotional needs.

That ain't religion - that's codependency.<<

[Bluerthanblue]

7. to be quite honest....

...(and i hate to admit this) i'm glad this happened, and has gotten the press it is begining to-

For those 'Christians' who truly embrace Christ, it will bring revelation about how far off the mark the 'religious right' is taking this country (and world)- and perhaps wake some out of the denial, and herd mentality that is driving the evil that has become 'us'-

i do believe that exposing peoples 'true' heart, and motives, will be the salvation of us all-

i read before 2000 that GWBush discovered the 'usefulness' of getting the 'religious' voters 'on your side'- the buzz words, the un-kept promises, the manipulation, he (or those who power him) have tapped into a very effective recsource to 'get votes' with few real personal qualities, leadership ability, or ... brains.- harsh, judgmental and cruel words, but i am speaking about his WALK, not his words-

[DanCa]

8. Good Post

Whenever something like happens it chills me to my soul. I was removed from a Church for believing in Democratic principles. I know what it feels like to be rejected by the righteous. Too those of you who never been in this predictament it's more than finding a new building, or switching to a different set of clothes. It's very private, and somewhat humilating exp.
To those liberal churcher goers I issue these advice. 1: Connect with fellow liberals within the church. You'll recognize them at the coffee hour and by word of mouth. 2: Quietly subervertly infilltrate the political power circle and while you may have to bite your tongue alot you will in time be able to slowly turn thing around.
Fortunately Father Jim at my new church knew of the situation I had and put me on the bishops council right away. So that this doesn't happen here. To my fellow liberals I offer this.
Please do not equate the Fristians with anything remotely connected to what Jesus Christ has ever taught about love, peace, and tolerance. I know that my god loves everyone regardles if they GBLT, or of thier party affiliation. All that matters is a good heart, and that we treat each other with respect. And that why quietly reservely pray to him and keep it out of everyones face.
To anyone who has been hurt by the theocrats my heart goes out to you. I know the hurt your feeling because of these actions by the zealots. As one of you I say peace and hopefully if anygood comes out of this it will awaken the religous left movement in America.
Peace everyone and have a gentle day.
Danny

[Flubadubya]

11. I got a better idea...

Get the hell out of the church from the git-go! Why try to belong somewhere that you know you are not wanted and/or you have to slink around surreptitiously to try to find those of "like mind". Why put up with that?

People "of faith" and of "like mind" who want to worship ought to start their own churches. I wouldn't spend one Sunday in a church where I knew "my kind" was not welcome. What kind of "fellowship" is that, for Christ's sake? Sheez, do you people like playing "victim"... do you have "battered wife syndrome"? Get the hell out!

Personally, I avoid the entire problem. I don't subscribe to ANY organized religion... and boy does it suit me just fine!

[snowbear]

14. Yes, but..

..then the CHAN CLAN would be free to spew their hatred and would be able to mold the minds of young children who grow up going to his church.

Isn't it better that he's been exposed? :headbang:

[DanCa]

18. Well for me

I dont believe in running away from lifes problems. Thats too easy. If the democrats took action against the extreme right wing years ago we wouldn't have this problem.
Thank you for replying to my post. Have a nice weekend. :)

[Bluerthanblue]

20. true.... though i've yet to

find a church home that doesn't 'trigger' alot of negative stuff in me, i believe that if we DON'T at least speak up, voice the truth, counter hatred with love, and seek to 'reconcile' each other, then we are in effect condoning what is being done.... in the name of Christ-

it's a hard position, but silence can be seen as agreement- and approval- and is probably worse than running away- Jesus didn't 'run away' from those who attacked him- Neither did Gandhi or Martin- all offered reasons for responding as they did- being a peacemaker doesn't mean doing nothing- it means not returning evil for evil- and seeking to find resolution.

wish i could say i had that kind of courage, strength, and self-control-

[Perky]

24. I can't do that

I can not abandon people I know to be wrong anymore than I can allow them to shun those who do not believe as they do.

I must I must create dialogue (not acrimony) where I can. Believe it or not these people mean well,,, they just fo not have a clue that they are worshiping idols. We are all like lost sheep who have fone astray.

[Robbien]

9. People For the American Way Foundation has come out with a statement

“What have we come to when the doors of a church are closed to longtime members because of their political beliefs? When a pastor equates political support for the ‘wrong’ candidate with a sin before God?

“I would say to Senator Frist and Karl Rove that this is what comes of attempts to manipulate religion for political gain. Americans simply will not accept the claim that ‘unless you accept my political beliefs, you cannot be a good Christian.’

“This nation was founded on respect for religious belief, and tolerance for religious diversity. Men and women of faith have every right to advocate for their political beliefs. While churches, of course, can set their own membership standards, no one should punish people of faith for their political beliefs.

“This is terribly sad. I urge the President to express his opposition to all attempts to manipulate faith for political gain.”

http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=18697

[EVDebs]

16. "...forgive our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.."

Seems that pastor and the group that supports him are re-writing the Bible for their own political purposes.

[G_j]

12. **a few contacts etc...

Western NC group: Separation of Church and State:
http://churchandstate.meetup.com/boards / (national site)

Asheville chapter Separation of Church and State
has a former Baptist minister as its leader:
http://churchandstate.meetup.com/11/members /

File with the IRS to have their tax exempt status investigated:
http://www.irs.gov/help/page/0,,id=13148,00.html

Western NC ACLU:
[e-mail]

Sixty Minutes:
[e-mail]

CNN Comment Line:
404 827 1500

[snowbear]

15. G-j,

You're doing an awesome job getting the contact info out! :yourock:

[G_j]

22. thanks

every little bit helps I suppose, plus this is a local story also.
Thanks for your input on these various threads also!

[DawnneOBTS]

17. It doesn't surprise me...

that the SBC could care less-remember, they were in FAVOR of segregation. Anyone remember that "Meet The Press" episode in the fall, where Rev. Al Sharpton and Rev. Jim Wallis had to sit there with that fat fuck Faldwell and the other fat ass SBC president? I was so so so glad Al let the SBC guy have it with the segregation issue, and then he was like, "Oh, well, we eventually apologized." The nerve to be so callous. I don't remember the asshole's name.

[DanCa]

19. You mean Jerry "make my skin crawl" Fawell

Is for segragation color me shocked. I heard he also had a website whee he wants to deny women the right to vote. Or is that the other loon Roberston.?

[mikedevilsfan]

27. Well said

I am an evangelical and agree.
But maybe this will turn out for the good. This crap couldn't go on forever.
Michael

[ikojo]

28. Howard Dean is probably afraid of alienating the

virtually non existent fundamentalist Christian Democrats. The Dems still think that if they foresake traditional Democratic values and take on the right-wing values, the right-wing fundies will all of a sudden vote Democratic. So, they say nothing and get exactly that in return.