help with taser info

[Maine-ah]

my husband has been arguing on the taser deaths, and I have been helping him. Here is a last response and a reply:

Husband: I shouldn't be writing this,apparently, but were not talking one in a million here. 72 deaths were attributed to taser use by police officers last year. They are being used as non lethal when these numbers would suggest that they are.

Other Poster: Airbags caused deaths last year, also. 72 deaths out of how many times were they used? I think your best hope for survival is to perhaps not put yourself in a situation to be tased. What were the situations that those individuals were tased under. I'd say that only 72 deaths is close to a " one in a million " percentage, figuratively speaking. The point is no matter what you use, someone could be killed. It's a hard fact, but a fact none the less.


Help.

[CBGLuthier]

1. The real problem

Is that instead of using a taser prior to deadly force it is now being used on poeple for things like refusing to follow an officer's commands.

This is because the officers believe the lie that tasers are 100% safe.

Taser use must absolutely be restricted to an alternative to a gun. It should not be used as an alternative to a nightstick.

To me the progression should be.

Talk.

Hands.

Nightstick (with proper training it can be a safe tol)

Taser.

Pistol.

[CBGLuthier]

3. Two other points

First, I am sorry but the 72 deaths last year figure is wrong. I was the one who posted the link to the article. It was 72 deaths AS of last year. Either way bad but not quite as bad.

Second. The difference between taser use and airbags is that you as a driver and passenger can make the choice to disable airbags if you are a small person who may be prone to injury and you can make the choice not to seat small children in the passeger seat for the same reason.

People who die by taser did not make the choice that the officer should use the taser upon them.

[Maine-ah]

5. thankyou. still, a bad boo-boo like u said.

[Maine-ah]

2. shamelessly kicking

'cause I could use some help.

[merh]

4. Air bags are deployed because of ACCIDENTS!

Tasers are used with purpose, intentionally used on others. Though the resulting death may not have been intended, the purpose was to affect the persons electrical system, and the use was intentional. Like a DUI death, which often results in manslaughter or like charges, the death may not have been foreseen, but the actions of the person to get behind the wheel when drunk, knowing that an accident can happen, is enough to charge the person as a criminal.

(Did you site the death of the healthy 24 year old that was reported last week or the week before.)

Whoever defends the use of tasers is an ass. (of course, imho).

[DoNotRefill]

6. SUUUUURE.....

"Whoever defends the use of tasers is an ass. (of course, imho)."

So, let's remove tasers from the arsenal of police officers, so that they'll just shoot people instead.

Do you think Abner Louima would have rather been tased or shot?

[merh]

7. Give me a break.

Taser's are used within close proximity - yes, some shoot their little charges a distance, but most are contact weapons. Big difference between use of tasers and guns.

They are now arming jail guards with tasers, when most correction experts tell you that arming guards is stupid and very dangerous. You never allow weapons in a facility, they can be used against the keepers.

Having worked in and studied law enforcement and corrections, I can tell you that the use of tasers will be banned eventually, after there are too many unnecessary deaths.

[DoNotRefill]

9. Removing a less lethal option....

will shorten the steps required before the use of deadly force can be justified.

An example of this is officers dealing with a suspect that is armed with a knife. Using a taser, the police can subdue the suspect without coming within range of the knife, but also without such a high risk of the suspect being killed as a gun would entail. Remove the tasers from the situation, and what result? The suspect will most likely be shot with a handgun.

[merh]

10. Did you see indiana jones

Officer with a gun will subdue and stop the knife welding criminal just by displaying the gun.

Bad example, try another. Remember, some of us actually have worked in law enforcement.

[DoNotRefill]

11. ROTFLMAO!!!!!

"Remember, some of us actually have worked in law enforcement."

I'll stack my LEO/Criminal Justice creds against yours any day. Of course, I'm no longer working for a branch of the Executive, I'm with the Judiciary now...

"Did you see indiana jones"

Yeah, but I understand the difference between movies and reality. Everything you see in an Indiana Jones movie ain't necessarily true...and basing your law-enforcement creds upon such a movie is, well, laughable, my little Mall-Ninja...

[merh]

13. Good for you with that judiciary thing.

Happy for ya - guess it's been awhile since you did any real cj stuff.

Most law enforcment trainers will tell you that arming an officer with too many weapons just leads to the chance that the weapons can be turned against them. Or, would you prefer that the cops have the option of shooting when they see the whites of their eyes, and then mirandizing and asking questions later.

Tasers are not 100% fool proof and can kill. Been happening all over the nation.

The indiana jones reference was not that off base. I've never seen a bad guy with a knife not drop the knife when the cop pulls his weapon and says "Stop or I'll shot". Sure it happens, with the most deranged or psychotic bad guy, but generally, the use of force is necessary and appropriate.

It all goes back to proper training in the use of negotiation, the use of pepper spray, the use of asps, the use of hands (pressure points), the use of the gun.

Tasers are excess weapons that are not reliable and, if cops are armed with them, provide just another weapon to use against the police.

:hi:

[DoNotRefill]

14. I interact with the police on a daily basis....

and I used to be (I still keep my creds up to date) a police instructor in the use of force.

Tasers are not lethal weapons. I've literally been hit with them thousands of times. Why, you ask? As part of the teaching process.

"The indiana jones reference was not that off base. I've never seen a bad guy with a knife not drop the knife when the cop pulls his weapon and says "Stop or I'll shot".(sic)"

Keep digging that hole, my Mall-Ninja friend. I've never heard an officer say "stop or I'll shot!" Even under high stress, most of our officers still use proper, or at least colloquial, grammar. If you've never seen an irrational person who refuses to comply with the police even when they have their guns drawn, you haven't spent much time out with the police. Alcohol and drugs make people do stupid things. And pepper spray will generally just piss off somebody who is in a mind-altered state due to alcohol or drug consumption. That's the good thing about tasers...they work not by inflicting pain to bring about compliance, like pepper spray and Ye Olde PR-24s, but by disrupting voluntary muscle control, so they work on people who are wasted or high.

"It all goes back to proper training in the use of negotiation, the use of pepper spray, the use of asps, the use of hands (pressure points), the use of the gun."

So your solution is a verbal warning ("negotiations"), pain (OC spray), pain (asps/batons), pain (hands) and then death (guns)? You don't see a need for something between pain and death, like non-lethal incapacitation?

"Tasers are excess weapons that are not reliable and, if cops are armed with them, provide just another weapon to use against the police."

I bet you don't see the contradiction inherent in that statement...If they are not reliable, then why worry about them being used against the police?

Tasers are excellent tools in certain situations, and have SAVED far, FAR more lives than they have taken. Why? Because it gives officers a tool to incapacitate a subject that is armed with a non-projectile but still potentially lethal weapon without having to approach to within baton range and risk being stabbed or shoot him from a safe distance to stop him. There's a big difference between approaching to within three feet of a guy with a knife as is necessary for a baton strike, and approaching to within 15 feet of that same person and using a taser on him.

[Maine-ah]

8. I agree w/ u on your argument

but, I can't agree with your last statement.

I think I tend to agree with the first response to this thread.

[merh]

12. Then let's get it straight what options are available.

To me the progression should be.

Talk.

Safety in numbers

Pepper spray (non leathel)

Hands (pressure points - officers trained to apply then and they do work)

Nightstick (some jurisdictions use)/Asps (thinner, extending batons that tapper out and can be used to subdue by disabling movement of the bad guy, eg, rap in the knee will bring the guy down, rap behind the knee will floor 'em. With proper training, effective to subdue without bludgeoning)

Tasers/Pistols (both are weapons that can be used against the officer, so arming an officer with both gives the bad guy 2 things to use against the officer or to kill 'em - both can kill)

The key is proper training, training and manpower. Of course, with this admin, cops grants are almost non-existent, so we can thank the weed that would be king and his band of rethugs for endangering our citizens. Unfortunately, the mentality today is us against them, me good guy, them bad guys, just like bad terrorists, nuke 'em over there. Training is the key and instilling in the police that they are there to protect and serve, not arrest and judge.

Just imho.

[SouthernDem2004]

15. You forgot:

1) Less-lethal shotgun rounds (several types)
2) Paint-ball OC
3) K-9

Also, you never hit anyone in the knee with an ASP. That will cause major injury. Grants are actually plentiful at the moment also.

The problem is they are giving every yahoo a Taser. Issuing Tasers needs to be selective in the same manner as less-lethal shotguns. You would not give just anyone a less-lethal shotgun...

[DoNotRefill]

16. Please....

don't irritate the Mall-Ninja by pointing out nasty things like facts.

BTW, Less Lethal shotgun rounds are far more dangerous than tasers are. Shoot somebody in the head with one, and the odds of their being killed are significant.