I Really Only Have One Request For The Christians In This Country.

[DistressedAmerican]

Won't someone please make it stop. Please, take Jesus back before they strip him for parts any further and dump the rest!

The guy had a lot of good things to say. I do not personally believe in his divinity. However, I like HIS message.

The poor guy has been the worst victim of Republican spin in history. It makes what Bush did to McCaine Look tame and civil by comparison. I'm not sure the Romans could have eviscerated his core message of peace, charity and humility any better.

The right continues to justify all manner of crimes and immoral acts in Jesus' name. I doubt they will be going up when their Rapture comes.

I think whether divine or mortal, his legacy is is far better hands with liberals than hard right extremists.

[cry baby]

1. It's unreal that the photo of Jesus on a trailer hitch...

is not a photoshop. Even though I know it isn't! Appalling, sad, distressing, upsetting, nauseating, frustrating, demeaning, demoralizing, infuriating, sickening, unjust, uncivilized, unbelievable, unfathomable, unAmerican!

[RobertSeattle]

2. And that is one WHITE looking Jesus

...And he apparently shaves his arm pits too...

[classof56]

4. I noticed that, too. And why isn't he all flayed and bloodied?

Like in Gibson's movie (which I didn't see but have heard plenty about the gory details)? Whoever did this should be ashamed and repent at once. Why do I doubt that either will happen?

Tired Old Cynic

[DistressedAmerican]

5. Not even blood around the nails?

My jaw dropped when I saw the image. Saved it for a graphic right away.

Jesus H. Christ On A Trailer Hitch! Think I'll use that from now on!

[asjr]

3. They have really crossed the line with this. They no longer

wish to convert but are actually pushing it down the throats of citizens. Using Jesus as a tool for their own selfish ends is disgusting! They are fanatics who sense they have the power to do anything they want.

[Tsiyu]

6. I am so upset about this right now

after trying to talk with my fundy sister last night. I ended up hanging up in absolute disgust.

You see, they don't want to talk about this. They now "own" Jesus. My sister can sprinkle Jesus all through a conversation. Out of 300 million people in America, God chooses to speak to her and give her prophecies and tell her what's right. She can shove Jesus down my throat all she wants.

When i brought up the Waynesville situation ( which aired on one of my local news stations, halleluiahLOL) she gasped at first. When i said "I guess Republicans now own the copyright on Jesus" she said
"Not all Christians are that way." "What?" I said. "I didn't say anything about Christians. I was talking about Republicans."

I started to tell her about how I used to find comfort in the Book of Common Prayer when I was a small child in the 60's. I believed wholeheartedly in the Prince of Peace, in the loving Christ who cared for the poor and the sick and those in prison. I prayed to a Jesus who loved every color, race, creed and kind of human. The one who said "Don't be angry without reason" and "Love your enemies" and
"Take care of the less fortunate."

The one who exposed the hypocrites and the one who said What does this mean? "I desire Mercy not Sacrifice."

But she didn't "want to discuss it." "You don't want to talk about Jesus?"

"You're not talking about Jesus. You just want to talk about Republicans and we are like oil and water on that issue." :wtf:?


So Democrats can't worship, and we aren't allowed to talk about Jesus either. Well, folks, if there is a Jesus, I hope he can hear what these people are doing.

I am reminded of this verse in the "Six Woes": "Woe to you experts of the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. you yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering." Luke 11-52

[DistressedAmerican]

7. That Is Some Story. I Hate It When Families Are In Conflict Over

like you said, "The Prince Of Peace".

Sadly, the fact that politics has so intermingeled with religion thses days that a discussion of one IS almost by definition a discussion of the other. They are that intertwined.

[Bluerthanblue]

8. todays 'religious right' are

yesterdays's pharasees- and Jesus had little patience with them-

i DO believe that Jesus is who he says, and hears and sees all-

i also know how divisive 'religion' can be between family and friends- Having been (i'm SO GLAD to say BEEN) a 'fundie' myself, i can tell you that i believe your sister and so many others are caught in a 'cult' - even if it isn't as blaitent as the Waco, or Jim Jones or Moonies,
and she gets angry, defensive, and dismisses any 'threat' to what is being spoon-fed to her because that threatens everything that she's built her 'faith' on- which is not 'faith' at all, and in reality is not 'Christ'- OR his teachings, but the words of humans-

Bible worship is not something Jesus smiles on- my last "fundie" family was a called the 'Trinity Bible Church'- now, if that's not an oxymoron i don't know what is- the bible IS a 'graven image' and an idol to far to many-

keep chipping away, gently if you can, - your honest words, and truth will find a place in her heart eventually- and your steadfast love in the face of her rejection will leave you knowing you have truly done 'what you would want done to you'-

frustrating? painful? oh yeah- but i'm so grateful to those who hung in there with me- and saved me from where i was headed-

MLK, Gandhi, Mother Thresa, so many "little people" who never got the press that they did- but did the same work, are those who have truly had a lasting, and world changing effect against many of the worst atrocities committed 'in the name of god'-
we need to fight every bit as hard today (maybe harder) as they did- for the WORLD's sake-

if you get a chance, read the post titled "Mothers Day Proclamition"-
i did, and it speaks deep everlasting truth- and is not for 'women' only, but a place for all of us to beging-

(i was raised to never discuss religion or politics, but if we can't discuss them, how can we ever change learn and grow???)

[Tsiyu]

10. Thanks for your words - and a "cult" is correct

She is so brainwashed, it hurts me to see it. I want my sister back, but I don't think she will ever return. I see her "faith" as merely an addiction which soothes all her troubles and absolves her from any responsibility for her own life.

She also toys with that "persecution" aspect rampant in these fundy churches. Now, when I think persecution, I think of the Nazi death camps, of people in prison/work camps, starving, sleeping on barbed-wire beds, gassed in ovens like so much that doesn't even count.

How can a very well-fed woman like her, who never once in her life has faced being hindered by any individual or entity from going to worship wherever and whenever she wants, who hasn't been told to put any symbol on her clothes or to get a Tattoo on her arm, and who hasn't known hunger in decades claim to be persecuted?

I decided last night that she has no true faith. She is a negative person who mainly spends a conversation discussing the negatives in every situation in her life. Sprinkled with "God told me she had a Spirit of Jezebel" or "Well, i prayed about it and God will make it all right" but if you make the suggestion that she try a warmer, more loving, more forgiving attitude toward others, she can't see that this would impact her life so much more than judging everyone else as not worthy of her or her god's time.

It's sickening, the way people get so wrapped up in their own sense of importance, infallibility and "purity." What the hell happened to

"He who exalts himself will be humbled...."???????????????

[Bluerthanblue]

11. well, all my years of

bible indoctrination, and my ability to recall phrases bring to mind that -

"let us not grow weary of doing good, for in do season we shall reap".

it's so much easier to give up- but you DO see she's caught in something that isn't 'good' or 'healthy' or 'right'- as much as you are able keep speaking peace to her- you'll come away frustrated and impatient much of the time, but if you keep planting those seeds of truth, i believe they'll come a day when she'll wake up.

By this, i don't mean to pressure you to 'free her'- you have to look out for your own self, but when you can counter her 'hate' (and that is indeed what it is) with words of truth and love, especially when biblical- (her rule book) the words of Jesus especially in response to the Pharasee's - The admonitions about humility, and grace, and mercy- the over-coming evil by doing good- the 'be- attitudes' the 'who is my neighbor' (even ossama bin laden fits the role) all that can't help but place doubt somewhere deep inside- it's not 'politics' Jesus never 'did' politics- it was the fact that he had a 'power' over the people that 'rivaled' Ceasars that really got the govt all upset-

hang in there- i don't envy you- but i'm in your corner, and know you obviously care-

em

[Ladyhawk]

12. I'm sorry for your pain.

My whole family is full of fundies, save for my brother, the Ayn Rand Objectivist. I think my uncle probably qualifies as an objectivist, too. I don't know which one is worse. I have both neocons AND fundies in my family and they're so busy agreeing with one another, they don't see the train coming right at them.

Most fundies never make it out of the cult. :(

I did. I don't really understand what differences came into play. I'm still trying to figure it out.

Buddyhollysghost, I used to believe I saw demons. I prayed in tongues. I thought I had a direct line to god. I was so immersed in the religion from the time I was born that it was an integral part of who I was. Extracting myself from the morass was painful. I think that perhaps it destroyed a part of me that will never fully heal. Perhaps the void I feel marks the support of friends and family, which vanished with my faith. I've had no luck finding sane people to fill the void.

This particular issue--fundamentalism--is never far from my mind. It's been the central issue in my life. :(

[Tsiyu]

18. Thanks Ladyhawk

You've shared a great deal of your experiences. Because of that, you have encouraged and inspired and emboldened many of us to stand up for what we believe in and to expose the way these people's minds are twisted.

:yourock:

Politics really have torn our family apart. I have a beloved aunt I cannot even speak to, though my mom says she is coming around. She is by no means a fundy- more a fiscal conservative ( Ha!)

My kids are all Dem - at least the ones who hang around the most, so I take comfort in that.

You will find good people in time. Woman. It's taken me years to collect the wonderful mishmosh of friends I have. Some of them are people I have endured bad experiences with - like working for a crappy boss - so out of something negative came new positive friends.

Just give of yourself, carefully - and at all times consulting your gut - and others will give back.

you already have many caring firneds here :grouphug:

[anarchy1999]

9. Ouch, and I'm so sorry. Same family conflicts here. It's hell!

N/T

You were right, though, hanging up is always hurtfel, sometimes it is best to do though.

I think I just feel like crying, this nation is so divided.

[Tsiyu]

14. What else could I do, really?

She was going to hang up on me anyhow. :shrug:

I wish I knew how to reach her, but I am taking comfort in the fact that the Church members speaking against this pastor are the voices of calm and reason in this whole story.

[Lindacooks]

13. Yup, same conflicts here.

And I made it out too. It's terrible, isn't it?

If you can stomach it, just try quoting Jesus' words to her. That's the only thing they can't refute. Just about every other verse in the Bible can be twisted around, but not his words.

[Tsiyu]

16. I try to quote the bible

but it just makes her angrier ??????

That's why I'm saying, she isn't practicing a faith, she is in a cult.

She's been basically jobless off and on for years, is morbidly obese, and blames everyone for her problems but herself. My parents. The Jezebel at work.

When you go out in public with her, she doesn't really understand how to be kind. Perhaps it's her self-esteem but she will talk to people as if she expects to be treated poorly. Her negativity is contagious. She was not always this way.

I have my problems too, don't get me wrong. But Jesus isn't going to come down and fix them. He's never unclogged a sink or checked the oil as I know of. An actual human has to be sure these things are done. Same with the personality. Only YOU can decide not to be a jerk.

She told me that if I "would just pray for the President instead of criticizing him" I might be happier and things would be better for everyone.

Right....

[Bluerthanblue]

21. oh, yes

i'm sure she gets angry when you quote Jesus- because she can't deny what you are saying, and it threatens her comfortable little 'world'-

i wasn't raised by a church family- i found religion, because i was DESPERATE to find an 'answer' to why my life had been so fucked up- and no matter what i seemed to do, no matter how hard i 'tried' to 'do right', things always fell apart- or twisted into some unexpected disaster-
i honestly believe that there are many folks in 'fundementalsit' cults because they want to 'control' life- to not be at the mercy of this world- and all the crazy things that go on- While saying that they have 'given thier will over to God'- (and often believe thier own deception) i was so happy to have the 'rules' spelled out for me, in neat little compartments- but no matter how well i followed those rules, i still experienced the pain of living in a world where really bad things happen to 'good' people, and really 'mean' people often live very contented, fulfilled lives- (to the outside at least)-

We are NOT in control of this world- maybe you could point that out to her- to desire to 'control' others, (which this administration is doing more than any other i've ever seen) is in reality the very opposite of what your sister says she really believes- SHE wants to be GOD- the only person any of us can control (i tell my kids this continually) is ourselves, and even THAT is difficult most of the time-

i truly understand your frustration- my oldest sister and her entire family are still VERY entrenched in the Fundie mindset- it's a hard balance to speak out, without getting angry in return- or feeling like they are just 'blowing you off' especially with our 'relatives'.

But, i believe that it's important, and TOXIC- and having lived in a very dysfunctional family all my life, i wish that someone could have interviened and helped - i sought solace in many ways before findind 'religion', and even that became a 'fix' in a very unhealthy way.
While your sister may 'seem' like she's choosing to 'be' the way she is- i think she's terrified, and miserable, and in desperate need for a 'real' saviour- Which she has to find by looking inside herself-

i wish you the best- sorry to blather on so

[zanne]

17. "I think you're going to hell when you die".

This is what my sister said to me one day last year. She was a guest in my house, and she chose to bring up religion, not me. You can think you've heard everything, but when someone you grew up with looks at you and says that, being "nice" and subtle is impossible. Her next sentence was "And you know, you don't have much time left". (I have advanced heart disease). I don't know what hurt me more--the fact that she thinks I'm evil enough to go to hell, or that I'll be dead soon and she was using it as a debating tool. We had such a terrible argument, we may as well have been in hell! Now, we're distant and polite. I just can't be docile about things like that.

[Tsiyu]

20. That stings. Why are they so damned cruel?

and sorry for hijacking this thread DA!!!!!

[Lindacooks]

27. That is just terrible.

I think that, in some way, they are trying to help when they say that. We had a terrible argument at Christmas (CHRISTMAS!) with my dh's brother in law who wanted to talk about other members of the family, not present, about how they were going to hell. I think he had some warped notion that we would help him convince the hell-bound to renounce their evil ways, or something.

Well, he soon found out that not only do I not think the Bible is inviolate, but that NOBODY can judge anyone else, or know what is in another person's heart.

We've been distant ever since, and we'll probably be distant forever.

They have gotten much bolder since chimpy stole another election. But good for you for standing up to your sister; please try to surround yourself with supportive friends.

[DoYouEverWonder]

15. Most fundies who claim to follow Jesus

are actually following Paul of Tarsus. When you delete all of Paul's crap from the bible and focus on the teachings of Jesus, you might have a better chance of winning your arguments with her.

In the meantime, here's a card that I like to give to people like her. Usually, I just stick them on their cars when they aren't around.



?mns

[Tsiyu]

19. That is priceless

Thank you so much for sharing this. I will do that....

and I agree about your Paul problem.

As I asked a preacher recently, if Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Light, and no man comes to the Father except through him, how can you justify yourself with Paul or Moses? Are you calling Christ a liar?


He only nodded his head. No reply....

[Blue_In_AK]

23. Absolutely right on about Paul...

...as I've said here before. The guy took a beautiful philosophy and completely ruined it. I refuse to read any of his letters.

[paparush]

24. I had some friends who were in Divinity School

and they agreed that Paul totally fucked up Jesus' message and Christianity in general.

[RevCheesehead]

25. No, no, no, no, no!

Please! I beg of you - do not fall for the mis-interpretation of Paul!!!

Most modern translations have royally fucked up what Paul was saying. There's also a lot of one-sided information in his letters.
Remember that a letter is only one HALF of a conversation. In order to know what he's writing about, you need to understand the situation he is writing about.

Women? Paul wrote to, and thanked, women leaders of the churches. Women served as deacons, as well as house-church leaders. In the church at Corinth, they were having problems with disorderly worship. Men and Women sat on opposite sides of the room, and in that church, women were often interrupting worship, shouting out to their husbands. (I like to think they were saying, "Did you hear THAT? You need to LISTEN to that!") For that reason, Paul said that the women should remain silent in the church.

Homosexuality? No such thing - no concept of homosexuality existed at that time. Paul was condemning pagan worship practices and fertility rites, which were sexual in nature. His basis was the Torah, esp. verses in Leviticus, which claimed that those who did such things should be stoned to death.

Remember that Paul was a missionary, and he travelled extensively outside of Jerusalem and Rome. Much of what he encountered was, no doubt, a cultural shock to him.

But Paul also was the one responsible for bringing Christianity to the Gentiles. It would be fair to say that if the Church remained in Jerusalem, it would have died. But Paul understood that the original covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, was that the People of Israel would be "a light to the nations." That this light was meant for the entire world. And Paul was the one who made the connection, realizing that Jesus came for the salvation of ALL humanity, not just to the Hebrews. He argued vehemently with Peter and James - and he convinced them that if the Spirit was present in the Gentiles, then the church elders had no business insisting that the message of the Messiah was exclusive property of the Jews.

Paul has been berated and hated, simply because so many people have mis-interpreted what he did write, and fail to read the entirety of what he wrote. Hell, if people only picked and chose certain sentences of my writings, they'd have good reason to hate me, too.

PLEASE, please - give Paul a break!

[Sentath]

26. Maybe its just the translation

But, I still have trouble with phrases like Philippians 3 15-16

So this is the way in which all of us who are mature should be thinking, and if you are still thinking differently in any way, then God has yet to make this matter clear to you. Meanwhile, let us go forward from the point we have each attained.

I realize that I don't know the man, and I can't read it in the original language, the implications might be different there. But in english it comes across as a nifty feat of verbal judo, both dismissing and utterly devaluing any and all other voices.

(P.S. Verse lifted from pastor's sermon 2 wks ago)

[DoYouEverWonder]

28. I try to follow the teachings of Jesus

but has a gnostic christian I have no interest in trying to redeem Paul.

Paul is hated and berated because HE misinterpreted what JESUS taught and he misrepresented Jesus by combining him with his pagan god Mithras and turned Jesus into a supernatural being. Many christians died has a result of his teachings and divisions. So no thanks, you can keep your Paul.

[DistressedAmerican]

22. Kicker!

[DistressedAmerican]

29. Sunday School Kickin!

[DistressedAmerican]

30. ....

[PowerToThePeople]

31. My request: leave MY life alone!

You have yours. You can live it how you want. My life is mine alone. If I want to drink till I wake up in the gutter, do mind altering drugs, have premarital anal sex, consort with my local madams and ladies of the night, that is no ones business but mine and whomever is sharing the experience with me. (oh, and if I was female- It is MY body! I decide what I do to with it). Thank you for your time.

[DistressedAmerican]

32. Can I Come Out With YOU? I'll Keep My Religion Off Your Body!