Kerry claims gaffe when Dean said, "There were no middle-class tax cuts"

[Karmadillo]

If you read the story, you can pretty much see the point Dean was trying to make, but I think this incident again points out how difficult it is going to be to argue for a total repeal of the Bush tax cuts.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/bw-elect/2003/sep/18/091804537.html

Dean, Kerry Clash Again on Bush Tax Cuts
By HOLLY RAMER
ASSOCIATED PRESS

MANCHESTER, N.H. (AP) -

Democratic presidential hopefuls Howard Dean and John Kerry clashed again Wednesday over whether to repeal all of President Bush's tax cuts.

In an exchange with a Saint Anselm College student about college costs, Dean again argued for repealing them all, saying the cuts left little money for grants and loans that could help pay tuition.

"That's why it's so ridiculous to say we'll keep the middle-class tax cuts," Dean said. "There were no middle-class tax cuts."

That was the opening Kerry's camp needed.

"This is simply another extraordinary gaffe from Howard Dean," the Kerry campaign responded. "Democrats in Congress fought to give millions of American families more than half a trillion dollars in much deserved tax relief and somehow Dr. Dean seems unaware. Howard Dean is either simply out of touch with the lives of middle class Americans or he is willing to say anything to justify the indefensible political position of raising taxes on the middle class by thousands of dollars per family."

more...

[quinnox]

1. This is a real difference between them

I don't know who is on the right side, politically speaking or personally speaking. I think both sides have merit in the argument.

Just to make clear, I am talking about the plans of either keeping the middle class tax cuts, or repealing all the cuts in favor of health care proposals. Not the sniping between the camps.

[Bombtrack]

6. you have to be high to think that Dean is on the right side POLITICALLY

I've said it before and I'll say it again. He will suffer like McGovern for his foriegn policy stance, like Mondale for his tax stance, and like Dukakis for being a perceivedly very liberal governor from a very liberal new england state

unelectable, barring almost everything going wrong in Iraq and/or less so, the economy

[unfrigginreal]

14. And like Harry Truman for...

proving all the naysayers wrong!

You're really kidding yourself if you don't think that style plays a big part in elections. McGovern, Mondale and Dukakis did not come across as fighters, while Dean does.

And no, I'm not saying that style is everything, but if policy positions we're the be all end all to a campaign, then Gore would have trounced Bush so bad that they couldn't have stolen the election.

[Bombtrack]

17. fighter? could you be more vague? That's how you might see him

but he doesn't have an optimistic message, which is necessary to win. His "style" appeals overwhelmingly to anti-war, extremely anti-bush, knee-jerk liberals.

Why bring up Truman? It's baseless and contextless.

Yeah he was an underdog in 1948, so that must mean Dean's electable!?

[unfrigginreal]

20. You're obviously right...I see that Edwards is really exciting the masses.

I guess Dean's negative message of fiscal responsibility, health care for all, regaining respect from the World community, responsible care of the environment, civil rights for all and returning the flag to all Americans will probably turn a lot of folks off.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[unfrigginreal]

26. You've got to be kidding!?!?!

I'm supposed to give his candidate a pass while he's attacking mine...LOL!

[Bombtrack]

31. I'm attacking the bogus argument for Dean's electability in a general

election.

All the candidates have messages about Fiscal responsibility, environmental protection, etc. but his platform coupled with his image wouldn't get more than a fraction of the independant vote, barring complete disaster from Bush(in middle americas eyes not yours)

he's exciting a constituancy that is singular and not even close to a plurality of america.

Much in the same way McGovern did.

Primaries and general elections are not parallel, and none of the Dean supporters get that

[sangh0]

34. If all it takes to win is be an underdog and a fighter

then Sharpton's got this election in the bag

[Nederland]

39. LMAO! (nt)

[unfrigginreal]

36. But you're making a bogus argument about Dean's unelectability.

You are propagating the media and DLC argument that Dean is too liberal to win. If you believe that then put some meat behind it. I personally don't see it, and I'm far from what you would call far left.

I just posted some of Dean's positions that I find positive...why don't you tell us the positions that he holds that you think will do him in?

Yes, with the media against him it won't be easy, but he's not going to shy away from the fight like McGovern, Modale and Dukakis. Dean will appeal to many more Independents and Republicans then those folks did just because he's showing some fight.

[walkon]

8. This level of sniping

does nothing for the voter and, eventually, stains both candidates. The cuts pushed through by the Bushroveniks are wrong and should be repealed even if the Dems got a few "middle class" trinkets for all their "hard work".

[Demobrat]

10. Yes, this is really good.

They can argue all day about whether or not there was a middle class tax cut, but the truth is everybody knows what they got. If they got a tax cut and want to keep it, they can vote for Kerry, and if they didn't he's not talking to them and no amount of hypothetical examples will change that. So may the person who speaks for the majority win.

[AP]

11. Who has been getting all the best tax breaks the last 20 years?

Who has been getting all the worst tax burdens?

Who do you think is right?

[quinnox]

13. I'm not sure

I like the idea of keeping tax cuts for the middle class, but I also see the appeal of a comprehensive health care system for those that need it.

[cherryperry]

2. Thanks for this info!

It seems to me that the nominee will be either Clark, Dean or Kerry. On this one, in my opinion, Dean is clearly correct, IMHO!

Again, much appreciated!!

[Bandit]

3. I say scrap them all and then give a Democratic plan

that includes tax cuts for the middle to poor. If left like this Democrats will receive no credit even if like Kerry says they fought hard for some middle class relief. Get rid of any tinge of Bush* and start fresh.

[Fabio]

7. I think that is an idealistic scenario

but is bad practice for two reasons:

1) the time frame needed for stimulus is now.

2) Without a pliant congress back (ie Dem controlled) on their hands, repeal and reform wont happen without positive benefits acruing to the GOP constituency.

[caledesi]

12. I think that is what Dean wants to do. ABB (anything but bush)

[blm]

4. Rolling back or increasing taxes equally is a GOP philosophy.

Democrats stand by PROGRESSIVE taxation. It is a defining issue that separates the parties, and Dems have FOUGHT for it for years.

[dsc]

15. and disembling is a defining issue for Dean bashers

Dean is not argueing for an equal rollback of taxes. The top 1% got almost half this cut. Which means they got nearly 50 times as much as the average everyone else got. That isn't an equal rollback.

[blm]

16. Why are you so insulting to others?

My point is quite valid. Cutting or increasing taxes by the same percentage acrooss the board IS a longtime GOP staple philosophy.

Care to argue it with Kevin Phillips?

[dsc]

19. but that isn't what Bush did

and thus the opposite isn't what Dean is calling for. You are being dishonest, there isn't another word for it, to call the opposite of Bush's tax cuts increasing everyone's taxes by the same percent. It isn't anything remotely like that and you damn well know that. It is hard not to insult posters who costantly insult our intellegence by not presenting honest posts. I am sure you will now say you didn't really mean "Cutting or increasing taxes by the same percentage acrooss the board IS a longtime GOP staple philosophy." but that is exactly what you said. And Dean isn't calling for increasing taxes by the same percentage across the board. He is instead calling for rich people to have a 7% increase in rates (33 to 40), middle class to have a 4% increase in rates 25 to 29, and the poor to have a 5% percent increase in rates 10 to 15. Note that even under this description which leaves out every one of Bush's tax cuts that went wholly or nearly wholly to the rich your description is still dishonest. And of course this leaves out the estate tax, the dividend tax cut, and other such cuts which went almost exclusively to the rich. If you even one time correct errors you made, admitted you had made a mistake, or supplied links without being berated into doing so I would be far more tolerant. But you do this stuff all the time. Again I am sure you will somehow claim I twisted your words, or are holding you to some unfair standard, or maybe it will be some new sin. But you said one thing and the truth is totally different. This isn't the first time. It isn't the second time. It isn't the third time, nor the fourth. It is so many times I have lost count.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dsc]

27. It is 13 minutes later and I am admitting my error

though I did round to 40% which I do think is fair. I think that is a pretty good record (especially given that I am doing laundry and thus didn't even see your post until about 1 minute ago.)

[dsc]

33. It is now 16 minutes later

I take it I can assume you don't respond to apologies as you so rudely assumed I didn't after less than 14 minutes.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dsc]

28. See above you got an apology in 14 minutes

care to bet how long mine will take to get.

[unfrigginreal]

30. Wow!!

So, I guess by your standards then, the top rate taxpayers actually recieved a tax increase of 2%.

Doesn't that make it all better DSC? We should write Dean and tell him he was wrong, the top guys actually received an increase of 2% thanks to the hardfought actions of the Democrats in congress.

[blm]

29. I'm talking tax PHILOSOPHY, dsc.

Geez. I'm saying that progressive tax rates are Democratic. Whenever the GOP wins across the board tax breaks, it sounds equal but it isn't.

To keep the taxcuts for the working class while increasing those on the wealthiest IS the Dem formula that works best.

I was berated heavily by Dean supporters for using the same links to refute the same lies consistently. So, instead of linking all the time, I made references to articles that were well discussed. Then you and a few other Dean supporters come along and demand links (especially after you learned that lightning strikes wiped out my computer).

Maybe this is just part of your team's game to intimidate people, but I think it's annoyingly stupid.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blm]

35. This is crazy...THIS was my post

in response to THIS part of the original post:

"Democrats in Congress fought to give millions of American families more than half a trillion dollars in much deserved tax relief..."
________
Thu Sep-18-03 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
4. Rolling back or increasing taxes equally is a GOP philosophy.
Democrats stand by PROGRESSIVE taxation. It is a defining issue that separates the parties, and Dems have FOUGHT for it for years.
______________

Change it to whatever you want, dsc. My tip to you is to get the fuck OVER yourself. You perceive battles that don't exist. I am never allowed to speak generally, or give my opinion without you making some insufferable post that almost always twists my words to suit YOUR agenda.

[dsc]

37. Sure it is

Sorry but that is crap. Especially given your repeated claims that Dean is against progressive taxation (here is just one example) http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=43076&mesg_id=43087&page=

You claim over and over gain that Dean is against progressive taxation. You then state what you think progressive taxation is. I then show how what Dean is saying he will do (which is what you are basing your statement in re of him and progressive taxation on) isn't the opposite of your defintion and somehow I have twisted your words. Words have meaning even when you wish they didn't. If you didn't mean to say that Dean was against progressive taxation you shouldn't have said it. If you didn't mean to define progressive taxation they way you just did then you shouldn't have done so. But you did and now you need to either admit your error or stick with a dishonest position. The position you are in here isn't my fault as much as you may like it to be.

[SEAburb]

5. It's stupid to raise taxes on the middle class during

an economic down turn. "Bush recession followed by the Dean depression"- Joe Lieberman

[sham]

41. yeah yeah yeah

Dean would be worse than Bush*. We get it.

Now everybody repeat:
DEAN WOULD BE WORSE THAN BUSH*
DEAN WOULD BE WORSE THAN BUSH*
DEAN WOULD BE WORSE THAN BUSH*

Got it everybody?

:eyes:

[IndianaGreen]

42. No one is raising taxes! Don't repeat the GOP mantra

We are rolling back Bush's irresponsible tax give aways, all of them! This is the only way to bring the country back to Clinton's budgetary discipline, the one that gave us 8 years of prosperity and ended with budget surpluses.

How many times are Democrats going to adopt the GOP mantra on taxes?

[sangh0]

9. Dean said that?

Was his wagging his finger when he said it? :-)

[donotpassgo]

18. What tax cut do you have when the states raise their own taxes?

n/t

[uptohere]

24. too bad, unfortunate choice of states to reside

but tothe point if you live in California, your taxes were going up regardless due to the economy and the impossibly stupid energy policy you guys got suckered into. Don't know who was responsible for that but when you sold off all your utilities, you were doomed.

Maybe there will be a second dot com boom. I'd hope for that.

[uptohere]

25. the good doctor must be a podiatrist

to be able to keep getting his foot removed from his mouth so often.

Ouch.

[Yupster]

38. Not an "extraordinary gaffe," but

Dean needs to understand that he needs to be more careful with the things he says. He's making too many of these off-hand mistakes.

Although, that's what long campaigns are for. He'll have plenty of time to hone his message and get more precise.

[unfrigginreal]

40. You make a good point...

I'm just hoping that before it's too late some of the top minds in the Democratic party will offer him some help. It seems that so far he's had to do it all on his own, and has done pretty well, but he's going to need top notch advisors to beat Bush.