East Waynesville Baptist Church ... manna from above

[Stinky The Clown]

Let the jihad begin in earnest! This could well be the tipping point. When pastor whateverthefuckhisnameis bounced those nine souls from his flock, they were followed by 40 others who left in protest. That's a fairly significant number for such a small church located right in the 'ol 'bahbble' belt.

The guy who spoke about this on Countdown tonight was actually a pretty reasonable sounding man. And pretty upset with his church. A member, he said, for 58 years. He was one of the ones who left in protest.

He gave up the church where he'd worshiped virtually all of his life. That's a powerful statement. And for us, a very good sign.

All I can say is 'wow'.

The more this happens, the more we'll see people leaving these churches. And when they do, they'll stop for a moment. And look around. Their reality is changed. What was, to them, good, may now be seen as evil. Or at least woefully misguided.

Surely not all of them will leave. But enough could. Enough to make a difference.

More than anything lately, this little morality play acted out in a small town in North Carolina gives me reason to hope.

[charlyvi]

1. Had the guy left the church?

I didn't hear that part.

[Stinky The Clown]

2. Yup. He was one of the 40 who left in protest.

And several times mentioned that those who stayed cheered as he (and the others) left.

[jean]

7. he also said he voted for bush - but that they don't have the right to

tell anyone how to vote and God wouldn't be to happy about it either (paraphrasing - you can hear him on Olbermann's replay).

[susanna]

22. He was very well-spoken and kind.

The sort of person the Christian faith is supposed to produce. Good for him in realizing, in a way, that church and politics (of the small church variety...don't get me started on government) don't mix.

[jean]

28. An elderly woman named Selma was interviewed on Ed Schultz's show

this afternoon - she's in her seventies and I think is/was the church treasurer... she, also, was well-spoken, soft-spoken and kind. Gentle people, these two. When Ed asked if she was a Dem, she said she's a Christian and votes for the best person. Selma also mentioned there are numerous tapes of Chandler's rants/sermons.

AP has a news video up at Yahoo - which features a picture of Chandler - you can link to it on this page:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/church_politics

and click on this little blue link under the headline, on the left side:
Minister Ex-Communicates 9 Over Politics(AP video)

I think Selma might be the woman saying "When I go to church I am there to worship God, not the preacher."

[susanna]

30. ...Thank God for Selma.

That is what it is supposed TO BE ABOUT.

Sorry for the shouting, jean, it is not at all meant towards you. It comes from my disgust towards people who would twist a religion into a caricature of itself to gain power, when the very focus of their religion, Christ, eschewed power completely.

I get tired these days trying to make sense of it.

[jean]

32. love the shouting/emphasis - I'm a huge Garafalo fan!

[susanna]

34. Whew! I'm safe then.

I love Garafolo too. ;-)

[Stinky The Clown]

39. "she's a Christian and votes for the best person"

That's the same phrase the guy who was on Countdown used when asked about his political affiliation.

Again ..... interesting.

[jean]

47. didn't the gentleman on Countdown say he listens to God when

he votes? Something along the lines of, I listen and maybe God doesn't speak to me but I choose who I think is the best person...

She didn't really mention God telling her who to vote for, on the Schultz show. And I think she was one of the nine kicked out by Chandler. The gentleman was one of the others who left in protest.

[Stinky The Clown]

51. He said both .....

He said he listened to God and that he chooses the best person (I guess based on what God tells him).

[FreedomAngel82]

35. Right

I liked what he said and especially about the women voting rights and how he couldn't see how a woman could let a man tell her how to vote.

[jean]

48. and how easy would his thought on that apply to choice? Made me wonder...

[blondeatlast]

62. That was astonishing, IMHO.

I think he put it in the only way he could make sense of the nonsensical.

That comment kind of floored me. That was the frame he used. I found that so telling, somehow.

[blondeatlast]

61. Yes, he did. STRONG Bush supporter, very strong.

I thought it was amazing that he was willing to talk to Olbermann. That took guts, because in his community, he's going to get some flak for it.

[babylonsister]

3. Ah, great post! Now you gave me hope; I just hope

this story doesn't disappear. So many have, and that worries me.

[burythehatchet]

17. I don't think it will disappear

because in a small town like this, churchgoing is the main social activity, so when a group of people is excommunicated, they are also cut off from their social circle. This will have some very deep reverberations.

[Yellow_Dog]

24. I was afraid

that it would. Initial coverage was by WLOS only, only TV news in the western end of NC, and considered a joke by most people. Typical newscast covers broken water mains in places like Florida, or a wreck (without injuries) in Iowa or someplace. 50 - 80% of news video each newscast was simply taken off of network feeds, think they only have one camera in the filed.

Anyway I digress, for 24 hours the provided the only coverage I could fine, and I was afraid it would die as a local story here. But gratefully it is spreading, even found it on ABC News website, and a newspaper in the UK.

It was over 24 hours before the Asheville paper (about 30 miles east of Waynesville) even mentioned the story, and I yet to see it on the site for the Waynesville paper, The Mountaineer

[Spiffarino]

27. WLOS really IS a joke.

My friend calls it the "Happy Tourist News" because all they ever do is puff pieces after the first five minutes of broken water lines and county meetings. It was never very good, but since Sinclair took it over it's become unwatchable.

[FreedomAngel82]

36. It made it to the UK??

Wow!

[Yellow_Dog]

42. Yep!

The Guardian

[blondeatlast]

63. It's hit the UK in the Guardian now...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4989937,00.html

I'm going to Europe later this summer--how do I make it known I did the right thing on November 2?

[Gothmog]

4. This may well be a tipping point

The religious right may have gone too far now.

[KittyWampus]

5. Have Faith In People. IMO, TerriS.'s Death Was A Gift Of LoveTo America

she existed in a strange limbo for so many years but her death and the sick death circus around it really began waking people up.

[chaumont58]

14. I think the repuke's handling of the Schiavo case was a big mistake

but they never give up. While channel surfing tonight, I saw a bit on Hannity about how the reason for Schiavo's original collapse was never fully investegated, inferring it was from violence from her husband.
Also PBS's token liberal show, the Wall Street Journal Editors' talk fest had a bit that the repuke leadership of the Senate believe they have to votes to drop the bomb.
What's the old Chinese proberb? May you live in interesting times!

[atre]

6. You're right... 50 is probably two-thirds of the church membership

If they were members of the church, they probably could have stayed and voted out the preacher.

[jean]

8. I think the church has around 450 members (no citation)

[Yellow_Dog]

20. Afraid not, probably less than 20% of membership

Local media has stated that membership is 400+

[alcuno]

21. You're right and welcome to DU.

And I'm sure that 40+ fundies will step up to take their place.

[Stinky The Clown]

40. Yanno, given that its a small town, I suspect there's probably not

40 unaffiliated fundies.

[jean]

49. The wingnut minister + wife planned to re-populate with Fristian youth,

handpicked younger people they could control.

Too bad - the older members he wanted to purge have been going to that church for 40-50 years, and are not going quietly. Bless them all.

I hope they inspire older Americans to speak out and bless the nation with plain-spoken common sense and wisdom.

[susanna]

25. Still, 20% in a small town down south...

isn't small potatoes. It will be felt. Further, there is nothing like seeing those "oh-yeah-I-shoulda-quit-too" folks who come out of the woodwork once the national reaction is one of disgust. Just my two cents.

[jean]

50. I'd like to hear one of those 'applauders' be interviewed - asked why

they went along with this purge and actually clapped when the old folks walked out.

[blondeatlast]

67. I believe, though I don't know, that many already regret it.

As it's said, God works in mysterious ways.

I may be Christian, but I readily admit to a twisted mind, so consider this:

Some woman member who applauded will very publicly see the error of her ways, ala the runaway bride.

Twisted, I know, but is it really so implausible anymore?

Edit: So no one has to look, I'm a very feminist woman, btw. I just know these types of people, I was raised with them.

[PsychoDad]

29. Many small churches like this...

Have "padded" memberships. Many members, most of whom are not active in the church or it's politics. Many of these small country churches are pretty much run by one or two families who control the politics..

I was raised as a PK (preacher's kid) in a southern baptist church, and I've seen this.

[ncrainbowgrrl]

33. Welcome to DU, Yellow_Dog !

:hi:

[LoZoccolo]

9. This also means that we should be responsible enough to welcome them.

Maybe a bunch will end up here. They will then be some of the most important people we could imagine visiting, as they could pull more out of the right-wing. Will they be greeted as "fundies"? Will people mock them for believing in "gawd" and "jeebus"? One can only hope that a few people around here realize that they're part of our base too and they should draw lines responsibly.

[Stinky The Clown]

10. I can't speak for anyone else .......

..... but people are people. Belief in God is a person's choice into which I would never interefere ... but neither will I allow their beliefs to be put on me. I suspect that any of the 'leavers' would be perfectly happy with that ...... particularly after they suffer a trauma such as these people did.

[enigmatic]

15. I think you're wasting your time..

For those who live to mock, it doesn't matter to them what the greater good of welcoming people who might have finally had the light turned on to what's going on in their Church, they will mock anyway.

It's the only thing they know how to do, sadly.

[Bouncy Ball]

16. LoZoccolo, again I find myself agreeing with you.

:thumbsup:

Not much more I can add to that.

[babylonsister]

19. I would greet them as Americans who believe in

the basic 'rightness' of the American dream we all supposedly want. And by 'we all', I mean both/all parties. Their religion is of no concern to me, but their ideals are.

[mourningdove92]

11. I hope I sense the tipping over.

Too many things happening. The Republican party has been hijacked by extremists and so has Christianity. Maybe, just maybe, this will wake up a few people. The guy on Olbermann was VERY credible. And a Bush voter. Yet so offended he left the church and agreed to go on TV to tell the story.

That speaks volumns.

[FreedomAngel82]

37. Definietly

I think that helps as well. It shows we're not really as divided as people think and the MSM shows.

[Pithy Cherub]

12. Don't you mean crusade?

The christians from the Dark Ages that were going to 'free' the Holy Land from the heathens? ;)
Next we can have sequels just like the original crusades, Crusade 2005 has just begun. The demolition of Democrats is state sponsored and the new videogame version is ready before Christmas. You may have a limited edition book signed by Cheney this fall at the Focus on the Family SpongeBob roast.

[Inland]

13. It's time, then, to mock all Christians, insult their faith and doubt

their sanity!

Time to wrench defeat from the jaws of a small public relations victory!

[Stinky The Clown]

18. That sounds like a sure recipe for success

:sarcasm:

[Inland]

60. I can't believe I have to label my sarcasm as such.

Even though it takes all the fun out of sarcasm, apparently it must be labelled with an emoticon.

[Stinky The Clown]

68. I had originally thought it was sarcasm ..... but after that locked thread

on this same general topic .... I honestly wasn't sure. I guess my own common sense got a little off kilter.

Sad times we live in ... sad times.

[checks-n-balances]

26. Oh, so we should mock MLK, Jr., Jimmy Carter & Bishop Tutu

and probably even a considerable enough portion of DUers. Include me in that list, even though I feel that even I have already been mocked and insulted by this pastor in N.C. He has for sure, at least, mocked the First Amendment.

Read post #9 above, or maybe I'll just copy it for you:

Maybe a bunch will end up here. They will then be some of the most important people we could imagine visiting, as they could pull more out of the right-wing. Will they be greeted as "fundies"? Will people mock them for believing in "gawd" and "jeebus"? One can only hope that a few people around here realize that they're part of our base too and they should draw lines responsibly.

I hope you were just being sarcastic. If not, you were certainly making an ignorant suggestion, because there are as many varieties of people who call themselves Christians as there are people who call themselves Americans.

[enigmatic]

43. Read his post again

he was using sarcasm...

[Wheezy]

45. Mockery...

...is something I've learned to put up with.

Yes, I'm very new here, but I wanted to say something about Christianity in regards to the mocking, and your response to that, checks--you are right in your assessment.

As I'm sure you know, sometimes it's hard to read the tone of posters one doesn't know. But I'm not one to get offended easily. God knows many Christians are hypocritical and downright evil and they deserved to be called out on it, and I'll be right there when it's deserved.

But. I would hope the bright folks here wouldn't stoop to lumping Christians all into one category. Several posters here seem to be aware that Christians come in all different flavors, but there are some who seem to refuse to acknowledge that.

I am a liberal Christian. I'm married to a church pastor. I'm a Democrat, I am a gay-rights activist, I am pro-choice, I'm outraged at the US lack of health care for those in need, and the desperate homelessness situation. I want my kids to learn about sex and to put condoms on a cucumber in school if that helps my daughter not get pregnant. I don't want anyone forcing their beliefs on me just like I refuse to do that to anyone else...however, I will take a chance now and then to wave my hand a little and say 'Dr. Dobson and Tom DeLay and Bill Frist and Tony Perkins and this Pastor Chandler dood -- all of them? They do not speak for me. And I guarantee that there are many, many more like me--lots of them are just now realizing the shit this country is in. Lots of them are seriously considering voting Democrat for the first time ever. Lots of them are likely lurking here right now. And lots of them are more sensitive than I am.

So, folks, if you need to mock Christians, please mock me. I'll probably toss some pagan joke right back atcha. But I hope, in the process, that you come to realize that the loudest 'christians' right now are the most outrageous, and there are lots of Christians who believe exactly the same things about our government and this country as you do. And the folks like Selma--they are everywhere...they really are. But we've learned to be quiet because we get bashed from both sides--the RR and the liberals. One side thinks we're too sinfully liberal, and the other side sneers because we carry the name Christian. So, many of us remain quiet to keep the peace.

I think the time for change is near. It's boiling--it really is. I see this church issue as a small triumph, in a way--it separates that cultish group from me even further, and I believe it will backfire. I think the time will come when the quiet ones will not be quiet anymore. Hope you'll all support the emergence of the voices like Selma's...because this group could tip the scales quite nicely in the next election.

*steps off soapbox*

Okay, I'm done, now...thank you. :)

[QC]

46. I read the post as sarcastic, considering that we had an entire thread

tonight dedicated to condemning those who were driven out of that church for not having left it sooner. The thread was locked as "flamebait, aggressively pushed."

As for religious discussions here, they suffer from the old 90/10 rule of forums--that 90% of the posts come from 10% of the posters. Unfortunately, many of our 10% are well and truly unhinged when it comes to the subject of religion, which makes serious discussion almost impossible.

[Stinky The Clown]

52. Your post speaks volumes. Thanks for that.

:hi:

Yes, there's lots of "Christian bashing" around here. But I suspect 99% of it is aimed at the Dominionists ... the Theocratists ..... the narrow minded. In many ways, its a reaction to the hell this country is being put through by those who've stolen the word "Christian" for their own ends .... led by Messers Bush, Rove, and Reed and supported by the likes of Dobson, Falwell, Robertson, ::::shudder::: LeHaye, and the others. They each demanded a quid pro quo ...... one group has given it (witness Bushco and Bushco Redux) ... the other group never intended to (witnes the recent railing against the Bush brothers in the Schiavo debacle). Hence their fever pitch. And hence the left's lashing out, often with well intended rhetoric that sometimes paints with too broad a stroke of the brush. I've been as guilty of that as anyone. But I know what's really inside me. I'm not the least bit anti Christian. I'm antiextremist.

In the end, while there are atheists and agnostics among us ... and we're glad they're here ..... there are virtually as many religiously aware and religiously believing people on the left as on the right.

So yeah, you'll see some bashing. But in the end, you'll be accepted here for your politcal beliefs and not judged for your relgious beliefs.

Welcome to DU.

Be sure you have your thickest skin on :)

[Wheezy]

55. no worries...

hi there.

Thanks for the responses, both you and QC. I should have mentioned that I was not offended by the comments in this thread, nor by the other thread that got locked. And the list of Christians you mention:

led by Messers Bush, Rove, and Reed and supported by the likes of Dobson, Falwell, Robertson, ::::shudder::: LeHaye, and the others

is exactly that--a group of extremists. I'm antiextremest as well...and more and more Christians are coming to see these people for what they really are.

Anyway, I appreciate the time you took to respond to a newbie--as I said, I'm new here, but I'm not new to message boards in general, nor new to this debate, and I always wear my thick skin if I decide to dive into the deep end. :)

[Inland]

64. My post was sarcastic: and you are spot on

first, about some unfortunate tendencies in DU with regard to people like yourself, who are liberal democrats and Christian, in terms of agression and mockery. I won't call them isolated posts by only a few, although I wish I could.

Second, about the ability to pick up those christians who believe that religion should not be politicized and politics not turned into a tool for religion, if we allow it to happen by refraining from gratuitous anti christian remarks. Too many would rather not have them.

Third, about the fact that their are lurkers and others who must be offended and just disappear without comment. Too many have defended the mocking as haveing simply no effect, which I sincerely doubt.

[Skidmore]

54. There's no need to mock them. They will fall from the sheer weight

of their hubris and certitude in that their beliefs are God's will. I believe that there are many more people in this modern society who will not tolerate the restrictions of the type of closed society these groups would like to see. AND I also believe that most of us do not want to assist them in their suicide pact for the world. They are willing world events using Revelations as the script. I'll safely bet that most of the hardcore proponents woke up on Jan. 1, 2000, only to be disappointed that the world was not in chaos and they were still earthbound. Most people in this are more rational than this type of thinker. Humankind's greatest instinct is survival.

[Roland99]

23. An interesting note from the World Net Daily article:

Former member Frank Lowe told WLOS: "He says if we supported John Kerry, we have supported abortion and homosexuality."

What about the Cheneys' lesbian daughter?

[PsychoDad]

31. What about the Cheneys' lesbian daughter?

Invisible and unmentioned, unless they deem it relevant to have her make a rare appearance with the family to show the GOP's "diverse" base.

[Jane Eyre]

38. A few words about small rural NC churches

I grew up in a rural area of NC, and attended a small Methodist church near my home during all of my growing-up years. Now Methodists change preachers every 4-5 years, and the ones who came to churches like mine were either young freshly minted ones straight from seminary who tended to be wonderful, liberal people or else they were older men, often almost ready to retire, who were ultra-conservative, had a few bats flying around their belfry, or both.

Now, I know that Baptists are a bit different and tend to hold on to their preachers as long as everyone gets along. Or they push them out if they don't get along. But one thing is for sure no matter what brand of religion the church happens to be: in a small town or rural area, a church is not only the main social outlet for folks but it is also a hotbed of internal political activity. There were always, always various factions forming within the church. Some liked the preacher, some didn't. I remember once that there was a huge controversy over the purchase of appliances for the parsonage, and someone left the church over that. It was always something. And in 1992, there was a preacher who distributed the Christian Coalition voting guide to the congregation and all but named Bill Clinton as the antichrist in his sermon the Sunday before the election. A couple of people walked out during the service, and my brother never went back after that.

The East Waynesville Baptist Church is a small-town church internal fight on steroids. Chan Chandler crossed the line, big time.


Here's a place to post comments to the church:

http://www.usachurch.com/north_carolina/asheville/churches/church_182864.htm

[paparush]

41. Time to start giving away copies of "The End of Faith"

The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason - by Sam Harris

Harris calls for the end of religious faith in the modern world. Not only does such faith lack a rational base, he argues, but even the urge for religious toleration allows a too-easy acceptance of the motives of religious fundamentalists. Religious faith, according to Harris, requires its adherents to cling irrationally to mythic stories of ideal paradisiacal worlds (heaven and hell) that provide alternatives to their own everyday worlds. Moreover, innumerable acts of violence, he argues, can be attributed to a religious faith that clings uncritically to one set of dogmas or another. Very simply, religion is a form of terrorism for Harris.

BTW - I live in western NC, about an hour from Asheville and 90 minutes from Waynesville.

[DARE to HOPE]

70. Then I am sorry for Harris...

For me, my attachment to Christ and to the God who made and loves us is my energy for sharing love, NOT terrorism, with the world. It is my source of hope and connection with other people of faith, "people of the Book," and all who live out the principles of peacemaking, forgiveness, purity of heart.

It is the "brave 40" who represent my faith. Just what would you think gives them the courage to do such a brave and self sacrificing action, if not for the angels around them....

[njdemocrat106]

44. Chan Chandler's home phone number is readily available

I don't know if I should post it here, but I typed his name and Waynesville NC into Google, and the phonebook results listed his name and phone number at the top of the results. Use to your advantage :evilgrin: .

[Stinky The Clown]

53. Or not

[derby378]

56. Go ahead and post it - everyone else on DU already has

:evilgrin:

[Pharlo]

57. Thank God I'm Catholic.

I just CANNOT BELIEVE how divisive you Christians are becoming.

(Oh, and just to clarify :sarcasm: )

[BeFree]

58. Trent Lott says:`

"Christians are being oppressed". I guess he was talking about those good people who were kicked out of this church?

[panzerfaust]

59. IRS ...

Tax law prohibits tax-exempt organizations from engaging in politics.


http://www.irs.gov/compliance/enforcement/article/0,,id=106778,00.html

If you suspect or know of an individual or company that is not complying with the tax laws, report this activity. Reports of suspected tax fraud can be made by phone, mail or your local IRS walk-in office.
By phone:

You can contact the IRS toll free at 1-800-829-0433.

[blondeatlast]

66. The IRS already knows about this and has made a public comment.

But these are strange times, there is a bill to allow churches to practice politics and retain tax-exempt status, and the Heritage Foundation governs us all.

I retain little hope, I'm afraid.

[QC]

69. What did the IRS say? n/t

[whistle]

65. Send in the IRS, these people disqualified themselves....

...as a church by the actions they took against certain members.