Been Thinking About This Church In NC. Not To Excuse The Church

[DistressedAmerican]

IN ANY WAY. They are repugnant and should loose their tax exempt status.

However, what do these folks expect when they join a Fundie church based on homophobia? I have no respect for anyone who did not choose to LEAVE the church when this crap started. For that matter I have no respect for anyone that would willingly join such an institution!

I'm sure many will say I'm blaming the victims. So be it. I really feel no sympathy for these folks. They should have done the right thing on their own.

Clearly the pastor of this church had been making such statements and threats since before the election. They should have walked right then and there. When they didn't they became part of the problem if you ask me.

[Maddy McCall]

1. They may have been members for DECADES.

You are assuming that the people who were kicked out must have joined AFTER the pastor came there.

The members there are probably members because their parents were, and their parents' parents, and so forth. The guy who was interviewed on Olbermann said that the problems (forced political support of Bush) started only in October, before the election.

Churches aren't "the pastor." Churches have histories, just as all institutions do.

I'm hoping, though, that the people who left the EW Baptist Church will join the East Waynesville Episcopal Church, where they will certainly be accepted.

Many of the church members who are protesting the pastor's decision are not protesting on a Democrats vs. Republicans basis. They are protesting the fact that the pastor is trying to mandate to the members for whom they should vote, and, as the guy said on Olbermann, that's a personal decision, not one to be forced on people by a pastor, husband, or anyone else.

[DistressedAmerican]

5. I Assume They Have Been Around A While Myself. It Is Not An Excuse!

Should I feel more sympathetic for them and their membership of a homophobic institution because their daddy and their daddy's daddy went there too? Generations of membership in a homophobic organization does not excuse the participation!

A lot of people's daddies were in the Klan too. I guess if they join they are just honoring tradition?

[Maddy McCall]

6. The ones who were forced out REFUSED to support Bush.

Wouldn't that make it pretty clear that they were supporting Kerry?

[ewagner]

2. They didn't boil the toad

slowly enough....

by now you know the analogy....put a toad in a pot and slowly turn up the heat and the toad won't know he's being boiled until it's too late.

What happened at that Church is similar I think. The Pastor kept repeating their beliefs over and over...reinforcing them and then finally went the final and obvious step of telling them who to vote for with the threat of excommunication if they disobeyed.....If it had been more gradual, perhaps more of them would have gone along with it.

As it was, those who still had brain cells left, knew this was crossing the line and stood firm. The others?

Well, the water is coming to a full boil and they still haven't noticed....

[cally]

3. Did you hear the church-member on Olberman?

He's a repub. and voted for * because he's a good Christian. BUT, he was part of the group opposing the pastor because "he's a Christian." The member believes that each person should make their own decision on who to vote for. This member and his coalition were willing to leave the church over this. I commend them.

I think we make a huge mistake to make this one a Dem and Repub issue. I think we can make inroads with religious folks on this issue. Many are appalled at pastors who tell folks how to vote and that how they vote determines what kind of Christian they are. If we can break that lockstep and get the Repub. base to splinter, then we can win votes by explaining Dem values.

[Maddy McCall]

8. I agree.

[Erika]

14. The pastor is the one who is making this a partisan issue

not us. I would have been outraged if I heard any minister say "vote as I do" or you're out of the church.

[cally]

34. That's true, but many who left were Repubs.

Just like the Schiavo spetacle, we can win votes on this. (I believe.)

[DistressedAmerican]

49. I Would Have Been Outraged Enough To Find Another Church.

[blue neen]

4. Many of those church members were elderly.

They shouldn't be forced to leave THEIR church. The pastor should be forced to leave. He's not a christian by any stretch of the imagination. He has inflicted mental cruelty on those poor people.

[DistressedAmerican]

10. If The Pastor Had Changed The Church Would Still Be Homophobic.

Elderly or not, their participation in a homophobic church makes them homophobic. Not everyone in the church probably felt the same. But, those that are not homophobes should have left imediately.

Current members of the church who do not leave when they preach homophobia are as guilty as the pastor. A pastor with no congragation preaches to no one.

[blue neen]

16. I call bullshit.

Some of these people are close to 80 years old. Maybe they're homophobic and maybe they're not, but it's not that easy to make abrupt changes in your life when you are 80 years old.

It's possible that they hoped and prayed (literally) that the situation would get better. It didn't--it got worse.

Blame the pastor, blame the people who stayed when the others were "cast out." But don't blame the church members who were thrown out for being Democrats, and don't blame the people who also left to support them.

[DistressedAmerican]

18. An Old Homophobe Is No Better Than A Young One.

The fact that these people have participated in this messed up church for decades does not make it any better to me at all. Why the hell should it?

I'd expect my grandparents to walk out on a church with such a message. If they stayed, they are implicitly supporting the homophobic message coming from the institution.


Do you excuse racists who have been part of the Klan for decades? Bigotry is bigotry. Old or young.

[blue neen]

22. You do not know these people are homophobes and should

not judge them as such. They probably felt as helpless as I do in having Bush as my president. Just because he's the appointed president doesn't mean I believe what he says, and it sure as hell isn't easy for me to leave this country right now.

You also do not know me, so DO NOT judge me as a racist. I know all about bigotry. You owe me an apology.

I will not dignify any more of the flamebait remarks you make on this subject.

[blue neen]

25. Still waiting for the apology.

[DistressedAmerican]

27. I never called you anything. I will not apologize.

If you support a racist or homophobic institution, what does that make you?

The analogy you make is totally off base. These people CHOOSE to be part of this church. They are not born with Southern Baptist citizenship.

I'm glad you know all about bigotry. I assume that means you do not support it. That should keep you out of the church in question.

[cally]

32. I personally wouldn't stay in a church that preached

against a woman's right to choose and against gay marriage, but many progressives try to change the church from within. Leaving is not always to only nor the best option. It often takes more courage to stay and fight than to leave.

Regardless, those who stood up for the Dems should be commended. I won't join your condemnation. Sometimes when you get someone to take the first step out of a mindset then you have a chance to change their minds on other issues. It took courage to leave their church and stand up for those who don't share their political beliefs.

[DistressedAmerican]

38. The One That Left Of Their Own Volition Are Heros In My Book.

Good for them. I guess the is an argument for change from within. But, given the entranched views of the church that is not the most practical solution to being part of an organization who's teachings you disagree with.

[blue neen]

36. Still waiting.

But I know I'll wait until doomsday, because you can't see past your own prejudices. And that's exactly what you are doing--pre-judging other people.

Knowing about bigotry would definitely keep me out of the church in question. Knowing about your sanctimonious attitude will definitely keep me out of your threads. Ta-ta!

[unblock]

7. yes! the entire town deserves no respect

passers-by surely saw that little marque out front with some right-wing homophobic passage, so if they didn't AT LEAST write a letter to the editor or protest WITH A SIGN for at least 8 hours in the cold rain then they deserve no respect!

and any homeless people who accept food from the church also deserve no respect! they should only get their food and shelter from distressedamerican-approved churches!

and anyone who was a member of the church but oblivious to the political slant due to non-attendence or not paying attention deserves NO RESPECT because we should only respect people who pay attention and either attend church regularly or not at all!

:sarcasm:

[DistressedAmerican]

13. That Is At Best A Rediculous Exaggeration Of My Comments.

Passers by do not support the church with their money and volunterism. There is not a single report that this church was feeding anyone!

Yes, if you are part of a congregation for 2.5 years under this homophobic asshole and have yet to understand the message they are putting out, you do not deserve respect.

Let me ask you this, why do you feel the need to defend a blatantly homophobic church?

[unblock]

50. why do you feel the need to blatantly misrepresent my position?

how do you read into my sarcastic tease of your original no-respect-for-anyone-who-didn't-walk-out-a-long-time-ago screed to that i'm in any way defending a blatantly homophobic church?

i'm not defending the church, and in case it's not clear, i think the pastor sucks big time. happy now?

all i'm getting at is that there's no need to go around disrespecting people without knowing very much at all about their situation. ok, we know the pastor sucks, and you and i both have no respect for the people who agree with him. but do you have to insist on having no respect even for some members who, for all we know, have been members for far longer than the pastor, hate the pastor, and have been working hard to replace that pastor?

[DistressedAmerican]

51. Have they? I 've not read that anywhere.

Please tell me where I can confirm your assumption that these folks were working hard to get rid of the pastor. I understand they did not submit to his demands and I applaude that. However, in all that I have read and seen, including the interview with one of them, and have seen nothing about efforts these folks were undertaking to remove the guy.

If they really were actively working to throw him out, it would certainly soften my position. Have a link?

As to blatant misrepresentation, reread your last post and you will see who is blatantly misrepresenting. You took my comments about 9 people and blew them into a farsical indictment of the entire town. Now, THAT is some misrepresentation.

[unblock]

52. whatever

no, i don't have a link to support a hypothetical, and yeah, sure, a sarcastic farce is a "misrepresentation".

:eyes:

[Catherine Vincent]

9. Maybe the members figured to wait it out until this pastor left.

He had only been there 2 1/2 years.

[Maddy McCall]

11. Yes. Many times, a pastor this controversial will be voted out...

happens all the time in Baptist churches.

And, let me add, I bet Chan's tenure will be short...I'm pretty certain that the church members had no idea that their actions would result in national, and perhaps international, attention.

I'd be willing to lay a Ben Franklin on the line that EW Baptist Church pastor Chan Chandler will be looking for a new church in the next 12 months.

[G_j]

12. a tough call

one woman was 78 and had gone to the same church for thirty years (I believe that is what she said). In many rural towns church has always been a traditional social outlet. Of course they should have stood up and demanded his resignation back in October or before.
I have a revulsion to (white) Southern Baptist churchs to begin with, but this their community, it's a traditional way of life.
Many are not the fire breathing types themselves and one could most likely at least have a respectful conversation with someone they didn't agree with.
It sounds like it was many of the younger members who were siding with the extreme agenda of the preacher (also younger).

Not defending them, but trying to add some perspective.
I used to have neighbors very much like some of the folks I heard interviewed, and they were good neighbors in that respect.

[DistressedAmerican]

Non Fire breathers that support a church full of them are culpible.

They drive the get away car. This church could not spew this homophobic drivel withpout a congregation to hear it.

I really do not know what the age of the people has to do with it. An old homophobe is just as bad in my book as a young one.

[G_j]

21. I'm not sure

there used to be a significant focus on homosexuality.
I'm not sure if they thought about it much. However, if you go back farther, most (but not all) Southern Baptist churches supported segregation and before that slavery. go figure

I'm just not in the mood to jump down their throats right now.
I do believe there is a generational aspect here in that the younger members are more of the hate-spewing, Rush listening, crusader types.

[QC]

17. Yep, it's most often the younger ones who are the firebreathers.

Baptists used to avoid politics in church--in fact, they were one of the first groups in America to advocate separation of church and state. My father was raised Baptist and says he doesn't recognize them anymore because they are now, in his opinion, a cult.

As for why these people still go to church there, some of them were members before this guy was born, and people generally don't leave a church simply because they don't like the present pastor. Some people even--perish the thought!--stick around and try to change things.

[DistressedAmerican]

20. It is not about this pastor or that. It is about the overall message

coming from the church. That is my objection.

I do not think that changing the pastor would in anyway change the fundamental homophobia of the church. Subscribing to their teachings for years just shows me that these folks basically agree with the message of the church. That is why they deserve their share of the blame.

[QC]

33. Yes, I am well aware of what your objection is, because

you have been repeating it all evening like a mynah bird. That doesn't mean, however, that there aren't other aspects to the story besides the one that concerns you.

My point was that this kind of overt politicking by pastors is something quite new. Having grown up in a fundamentalist church, I can assure you that dragging politics into church was considered very bad form not so long ago. It just wasn't done. There was a pervasive feeling that the church should not involve itself in politics because politics was corrupt and, in the Baptist tradition, that stressed "the priesthood of all believers," moral issues were considered personal, not political.

All that changed with Reagan, and now we find ourselves looking at the logical conclusion of what Falwell and the others have advocated for a quarter-century.

Besides all that, if you weren't so eager to shit on fellow Democrats, you would see that this story is a godsend for us. We have been saying that many churches have become wholly-owned subsidiaries of the GOP, and that the GOP is now being run by nutcases, and here Chan comes along and proves it for us on a national stage. The more this story is in the news, the better for us.

[bush_is_wacko]

15. I have to admit...It took me EXACTLY 1 and one half sermons

with pedophilia as the topic of the first and then connecting THAT first topic with homophobia style preaching for me to GET UP in the middle of the second sermon in disgust with my entire family and drive straight home to write a letter to the minister telling him EXACTLY why I walked out and would NEVER return! Those people do hold some blame, BUT thank God they were there to hear it and REPORT it. I couldn't stay for the evidence...I figured I'd either throw a rotten tomato at the minister in the middle of his next sermon or break out in counter sermons on a daily basis. Those people were witness to the FIRST case of PROVABLE politics behind church doors that can get THIS particular church removed from that status... That's a GOOD thing!

:evilgrin:

[DistressedAmerican]

24. Good For You! No one should continue to attend a church

whose beliefs are different than their own. That is hypocrisy.

The fact that these folks hung around this church is ample proof to me that they generally support the church's teachings. That is why I lack sympathy for their situation. When you hang with evil people and they turn on you, you should not be surprised.

I am glad to see it come to this. Maybe it will do some good in the long run if it helps people get a grip on the inappropriate relationship between policy and religion.

[DearAbby]

19. It is hard to turn your back on a faith, church you had been a part of for

decades, some 20-30 years, they were elderly people, probably thought it would pass, that honestly just wanted to fellowship and worship with those that have been doing so for decades, I can imagine these people thought of the other members of this church as family.

It is a shame that politics had to split this "family" Yes they should have walked long before, but they should have asked this new Pastor for his resignation, before this happened.

[DistressedAmerican]

23. The Southern Baptist has a long history of racism and homophobia

I do not see why everyone wants to excuse poeple for being a supporter of a racist and homophobic church for decades.

Is holding to those beliefs for decades any better than doing so for a short period?

You are right that they should have pushed for a a replacement for the pastor. That however would not change the basic teachings of the church. Their decades of participation is ample evidence of their belief in.

[G_j]

31. are there degrees?

between thinking homosexuality is wrong because that is what they think their bible (supposedly)says, but just keeping it at that level and actually inciting people to actively crusade AGAINST homosexuals?

It may be one thing to talk with a neighbor about how you think something is wrong, and another to go out and attack those people and advocate waging a hate campaign against them.

[LoZoccolo]

26. Well you know what? I care fuck-all about your opinion of them then.

People like you will find every last reason to discount someone and prop yourself up. Fuck that. 40 people make progress and you wanna push 'em back, and in my book, you are either part of the solution, or part of the problem.

That's my opinion.

[Bouncy Ball]

29. Well I'm with you LoZoccolo.

I've never seen so much blaming the victim since I heard about the woman deserving to be gang raped because of what she fucking wore.

[DistressedAmerican]

35. That Comparison Is Total Bullshit.

Choosing to participate in an organization and getting raped have so little in common I do not know where to start.

Like I said when you hang with fundies, you should not be shocked when they act like fundies.

If you asked me if I felt bad for a rapist that was raped themselves I'd say no too. There is how your comparison breaks down.

[LoZoccolo]

37. Unfortunately, we cannot all be as liberal as you are.

There can be only one!

But also, unfortunately for you, your massively illuminated liberalness causes the rest of us to be blinded and faint by the sheer rush of photons from the light of your awesome leftness. So if you'd kindly lock yourself in the vault while we care for the others...

[DistressedAmerican]

47. Never Thought My Liberalness Would Be The Basis For A Flame!

That's an original angle! I'll give you that.

[Bouncy Ball]

28. You don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Many of those people were older, and could have belonged to that church for most of their LIFE.

To a lot of people, their church is more than their church, it's their spiritual HOME. Their entire family probably goes there, their friends, their neighbors, some of their coworkers. They might have been baptized there, gotten married there, had their children baptized there, Granny's funeral service might have been held there.

This minister was young, apparently. In his 30s. Who knows what those nine Dems thought about him prior to this.

And might I add, mainline Christian churches were NOT always as freaky as they are now.

The minister had NO RIGHT to do what he did. What you are doing IS blaming the victims. Heck, I remember a lot of atheists around here on DU after the elections urging Dems to go to and stay in their churches, to know what's going on.

So which is it, they are stupid for staying and deserve whatever happens to them, or they should stay in their churches so as to know what's going on?

What you said was really insulting. Democrats have every right to go to the church of their choice, to belong to the church of their choice and shouldn't expect to be told to REPENT for voting Democratic or get out. And they CERTAINLY shouldn't expect OTHER DEMS to say "well what did you expect, idiot?"

Sheesh.

BTW, the fact that you hate ALL religion is coloring your view on this.

[DistressedAmerican]

30. So I Assume You Are Not Buying That Shirt After All...

My point is this.

They should leave the church because its teachings are immoral. There are other churchs. Many of my christian friends have changed churches for just the same reasons. Most took their friends and families with them. When you hang with fundies you should not be suprised when they act like fundies. When your home (even your church home) becomes toxic, you should get the hell out before it kills ya.

[Bouncy Ball]

39. I bookmarked your site and was just waiting to get paid,

if you don't mind. If it's a problem, sorry.

Well, I'm sure they appreciate your advice, but I don't see how we can TELL people what church they should and should not belong to. What we just cede all the churches to the repukes? I don't think so.

[LoZoccolo]

45. If we ceded all evangelical Christians to the Republicans...

...the religious right would grow by a full two thirds. Two. Thirds. 39% of evangelical Christians are Democrats. If people here think the religious right is such a huge and dangerous thing now, why are they working to increase their numbers?

It was the Republicans who came up with the strategy of associating themselves with religion. It was a strategy that they picked, where they chose the roles for themselves and by default, us, because they felt it would allow them to win consistently. It never fails to boggle my mind that people here, who are supposed to be thinking about politics, take the role the Republicans chose for them in their plan to take over the country. Why allow them to fight according to plan?

[Catherine Vincent]

41. It appears you are in distress.....

:-)

[DistressedAmerican]

48. Can You Blame Me?

[libnnc]

40. I agree with Bouncy on this one

I'm the original poster on this issue. Why would an open, fire-breathing lesbian, liberal democrat like me give a flying rip about this story? It's a Southern Baptist church...let them loose their souls--right? (had to sneak in a Godfather reference) Why do I care?

Because these men and women have been bullied by a young thug who doesn't care anything about them. The mess has been going on for months. I'm sick and tired of good folks getting reamed by zealots. These people had been members of that church since before Chandler was born. Its the principle of the thing. They just want to worship the way they're used to. They don't want to be bullied and abused.

Don't EVER stand in the pulpit and tell someone from Haywood county how to cast their ballot!

This goes way beyond Democrat and Republican.

libnnc

[enigmatic]

42. yes it does..

This is a big chance to win those who left in protest (and those who are as horrified as we are but are Republicans)to our side w/ love, tolerence, and most importantly, reason.

Mock them over this, and you might as well kiss them (and that base) goodbye forever.

[Bouncy Ball]

43. Very true, enigmatic.

I'm glad the chairman of our party feels the way you do. Otherwise, we could count on being in the electoral shitter for the next half century.

[DistressedAmerican]

44. I Completely Agree About The Importance Of The Issue.

Few are as disturbed by the growing theocracy than I. We should be hammering their tax exempt status ( I phoned to complain to the IRS today). I hope that this story continues to grow and make the problem far more clear to the public on the whole. Thanks for posting on it in the first place. I nominated the thread.

We should pound them on this. It is a clear case of one church that has crossed the line separating church and state. All of that I completely agree with.

Wasn't saying the story is not important. It is. Like you say on principle. Should not be allowed to coerce your paritioners into voting one way or the other. That is a clear violation.

However, am I crying for the individual fundies that were turned on by fundie brethren? Not really.

[Lars39]

46. Had this preacher taken over the congregation?

My FIL's church was once almost taken over by a guy and his family
that managed to get enough members on his side for a vote. If my FIL
hadn't been very familiar with Robert's Rules of Order it would have been a done deal.

Over a span of a month(?) the congregation had grown by quite a few people who had joined just to help this guy take over the congregation. It was a very creepy situation.

[The Magistrate]

53. Locking

Flame-bait, aggressively pushed.