Why would any self-respecting God want to be worshipped?

[dave29]

Sure, I would love it if everyone took off on Friday, Saturday or Sunday and came to my house and bowed to my infinite glory... but, on the other hand, it might give me a big head - and I might start smoting people for failing to do so.

Maybe God works more humbly thorughout the cosmos, or maybe there is no such thing as God, or maybe there are multiple Dieties out there racking up brownie points by doing this or that for their chosen peoples.

My point is this... we're all stuck here on this planet together - and none of our God's seem to want to talk to each other to help resolve our differences.

This implies to me that we need to get off our moral high-horses and work towards a common benefit.

Edit for spelling

[libertypirate]

1. Thank you... Excellent Point

[ibid]

28. "work towards a common benefit" sounds excellent -.but why is GD used

as a support group posting area for the faith disadvantaged crowd. Does this "disability" (as it is seen by the Dems on the other side) require public affirmation from like persons?

If so why do people not post these threads in one of the Groups or Forums devoted to their belief system, or to issues they have with a belief system? The Religion & Theology Forums, Atheists and Agnostics Group, Choice & Reproductive Freedom, GLBT Issues, Religious Freedom & Church-State Issues, Women's Rights & Issues, Ancient Wisdom and Pagan Spirituality Group, Astrology, Spirituality & Alternative Healing Group, Catholic and Orthodox Christian Group, Christian Liberals/Progressive People of Faith Group, Mental Health Support Group, Philosophy Group, Seekers On Unique Paths Group ALL would seem better areas to have a deep discussion than GD.

Or are easy listening anti-faith posts in GD with their public affirmation by the like minded the best way to build "people working towards a common benefit"?

Indeed it is quite common for moderators to move threads from GD that have a better location (9/11 threads are always moved). Why should religious threads not also be moved. I rarely see the faith crowd posting on faith in GD. Does this make GD "safe" for the other side and therefore the preferred location for such anti faith posts?

Or is it a desire for a large number of people to see the post? Or is the Atheists and Agnostics Group closed down, or perhaps those who are Atheists or Agnostics prefer to be in your face - sort of like the Christain fundies that the RW GOP have in their tent.

In any case, it is interesting, to me at least, how one can count on these types of posts in GD everyday - and likewise can count on the moderators to not move these threads.

[dave29]

32. I posted it in GD in the hopes of being worshipped

by the GD crowd... isn't that obvious?

Really though,

1) I had no motive posting this in GD other than I felt like having a General Discussion on the subject. I generally stick to LBN, GD, AND GDPolitics, so it didn't occur to me to post elsewhere. Sorry if this offended you.

2) I thought the message was a pretty inclusive rather than divisive one. You saw it as an attack on those with faith... it is not, I promise. I don't mind pointing out, however, what I feel are serious problems with "organized" religion and some of their more divisive practices.

[ibid]

37. serious problems with "organized" religion are common to both those

who are members, and to those who are "anti".

But these threads always end up as back-slapping by those without faith - or with faith that there is no GOD - and end up reading as "divisive".

In my opinion a more interesting discussion involving faith and divisive practices by those of faith would be a thread on the North Carolina Baptist Church that tossed all Dem members as being unworthy.

A post on theory/study/interpretation/understanding of the concept of God - which I see your post started out as - has a better chance of getting a real discussion in someplace other than GD - IMHO.

[ewagner]

2. I can't remember who

said it, but there was a contemporary theologian who said that both Jesus and Buddha would be shocked if they came back today and discovered that THEY were being worshipped. That wasn't the point of their teachings. Not at all.

[DanCa]

5. Lead by example

I have allways thought we were supposed to lead by Jesus' example. Sorta like Superman and kinda like the character that was portrayed in Hercules the Legendary Journeys.
Whatever happened to the meek shall rule the earth, a miracle is it's own reward, and may you do for others as they would do to you.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

6. In Buddhism the Buddha is not worshiped

He was a man, like any other man except he found the way to enlightenment. If you know people who worship the Buddha, they are not Buddhist.

[ewagner]

8. that's what I was

referring to....

and if you hear the conservative talking heads, they will, on occassion, refer to worshipping Buddha.... ignorant f***s....

[dave29]

9. yeah, but they still made statues out of him

my theory is this:

If you really want to change the world, and not screw it up... do it anonymously.

[BigBearJohn]

11. Just because people make statues of him, it does not mean

that that's what he wanted. I think some people have a need
to seek a higher power.

[dave29]

15. agreed that that's not what he wanted

- but, unfortunately, the message is always corrupted. I call it the "telephone principle".

[Freedom_from_Chains]

14. So the fact that they make statues out of him

Why is that a problem?

[dave29]

19. it's not a problem

for most - but it is proof that we like to idolize, even if for good reason (he was a great spiritual leader, and his teachings were profoundly important). Once you make the idol, you run the risk of some people losing the message and focusing on the messenger.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

21. Yes, some people might, then some people might not

I suppose it depends on how you relate to statues.

"If you see the Buddha on the road, kill him."

[hfojvt]

47. All God's children are lost, but not everyone can play the piano.

I never read either book, but both titles are memorable.

[BigBearJohn]

24. I see a statue as "point of focus" - to remind you of the teachings

If some lower consciousness person begins to idolize
that statue, that is part and parcel with their level
of awareness.

All of these different religions have some "truth"
to them, depending on what altitude you view them from.

[dave29]

29. you've made my point, though

by referring to those who might idolize the statue as "lower consciousness" people. There is no way to know what altitude people are at - there is always another perspective.

You may be standing on top of Mt Everest, but from one perspective, you are at the very bottom of the Earth.

I do not have a problem with statues, I promise you, I just think they can introduce static into an already snowy image.

[BigBearJohn]

I just think people like to have something to look at

After all, this IS a physical world too.

[CJCRANE]

59. People like making statues...

even when God tells them not to. (2nd commandment).

Sidenote: BTW, I did a google search to find the 10 commandments and found a site which says that there are three versions: Protestant, Catholic & Hebrew. But even more astonishingly, it says that the Bible mentions a second version of the 10 commandments which are meant to be the same, but are in fact quite different.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

36. "If you meet the Buddha in the road, kill him." Buddhist saying.

Another of my favorites:

"Those who speak do not know; those who know do not speak." Lao Tzu

[Freedom_from_Chains]

40. Thanks for posting

It is sometimes a frustrating fact, but some things just do not reduce to words.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

3. Inferiority complex.

I always wondered why he said that he was a jealous god, as jealousy is usually thought off as a character defect. It's hard for me to conceive of a good that would have such a basic flaw.

[Schema Thing]

4. Same exact reason you and I want to be worshiped ;-)

... till we grow up and get over our damn selves.

[Henny Penny]

7. Good question...

I thought the commandment was "Thou shalt love the Lord your God" and we all want to be loved ;-)

[ibid]

10. True :-)

:-)

[dave29]

12. unfortunately if you accept the commandments

you have to accept the fine print, which is scattered throughout the rest of the bible:


Failure to love God, or follow his commandments may result in:

Plagues, killing of first born, locusts, wandering in the desert, forbidden fron entry into the promised land...

and that's just from Exodus.

[ibid]

50. "you have to accept the fine print" - guess every man a priest does not

work anymore

One accepts/interprets/understands as one will.

Jesus said all the commandments and the law are summed up by Love your God and Love your neighbor. And he was speaking as a Jew.

and I would guess that includes the "fine print" :-)

peace

:-)

[Ivan Sputnik]

13. "He" wouldn't

Only humans have egos.

The idea that God needs worship or wants praise is a projection. It's actually we who need this (or some of us do).

Just my opinion.

[Aries]

22. Freud thought monotheism was a "father" projection

...and lots of fathers sure want to be worshipped.

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0601/freud.asp

Freud, however, had no good word for religion. He regarded religious beliefs as "…illusions, fulfillments of the oldest, strongest and most insistent wishes of mankind." (The Future of an Illusion; the Complete Psychological Works of Sigmund Freud, trans. and ed. by James Strachey, NY, Liverlight Corporation and London: The Hogarth Press Ltd,1961, XXI,30) Religion, he believed, was a mental defense against the hardships of life. Threatening aspects of life such as earthquakes, floods, storms, diseases and inevitable death "are forces …(which) rise up against us, majestic, cruel and inexorable. (Ibid.,16)" As such, man looks for some kind of security through which he is able to escape many of these threatening issues. And if he is not able to, at least he should feel that such disasters have an exalted purpose. This requires the existence of an ultimate "Father Figure," an infinite Being who is able to stop any natural disaster or disease and in case He does not, has proper reason to cause these calamities to take place.


This, claims Freud, was the reason why millions of people, including highly intelligent ones, believed in G-d. It was not the result of an intelligent understanding of this world but "the universal obsessional neurosis of humanity" (Ibid., 44) which would be left behind if people would finally learn to face the world, relying no longer upon illusions but upon scientifically authenticated knowledge.

[ProfessorGAC]

16. Has Been My Take For 35 Years

An omnipotent, omniscient being doesn't need fawning fealty from puny humans. Geez, they would be omnipotent and omniscient. What would it matter what i think?
The Professor

[mitchum]

17. Because when humans create their gods, they assign human pettiness...

and vanity to them.

[mondo joe]

18. God is going to send you to the cornfield if you ask questions like that!

[dave29]

20. If I build it

will he come to me?

[ProfessorGAC]

23. No, But Shoeless Joe Jackson Will

The Professor

[dave29]

25. heh.

:)

[mitchum]

45. One of the absolute creepiest stories ever written

[AP]

26. Interestingly, the bible says that nobody should worship god publicly.

More specifically, god says that people shouldn't make their worship of god a spectacle. It says, go find a quiet place to prey and that people shouldn't wear their religion on their sleeve.

You can see why a good god would insist on that. Look around at all these people so unsure about their faith that they have to prove to other people their Christianity by making a spectacle of it. It's so not about Christianity when you go around saying, "look at me! I'm a better person than anyone else because I worship god! Watch me worship god!"

[ibid]

51. True :-) - sort of like the atheist that feels the need to night after

night proclaim his belief in no God, eh? :-)

As Jesus suggested, the folks that enter their place of worship and pray quietly and humbly are a cut above those whose main motivation is to have others to notice them via their proclaiming their beliefs.

With a little luck DU posters will accept the Democratic Party ideal of accepting others who are not clones of our own backgrounds or belief systems. But it appears there are a few atheist rants still to go before we get there!

On the other hand those on the right tend to get Fundi rants night after night being posted to right wing forums.

So as someone once said - "I work on being humble every night"

peace

:-)

[AP]

54. Fucking exactly.

[blindpig]

27. a related question

Why would an omniponent God create beings, the"image and likeness" of itself, only to consign same to everlasting torment, knowing the script from the gitgo? Sounds like one sick puppy, IMHO.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

30. For the priests, rabbis, vicars, mullahs, etc, to make a buck.

It's pretty hard for me to imagine any God, worthy of the name, to demand applause, worship, prayers, obeisance, confessions, parades, and donations to be a God.

Seems to me that He/She/It would have better things to do than fret over what the egomaniacal pipsqueeks on a petty planet on the fringes of a mediocre galaxy think or believe about anything. Particulary God.

"God" was created by arrogant humanity in a fruitless attempt to explain the incomprehensible.

It's all rather silly and childish.

[ArkDem]

31. smite, smote, smitten

[dave29]

34. spanketh?

hmm.

[ArkDem]

35. I might start smoting people for failing to do so.

[HEyHEY]

33. Deity tail

:shrug:

[Lindacooks]

38. Very good point. My dh always says,

think of yourself as a parent with many children who are suffering. Which would you rather have - a bunch of people sitting around telling you how wonderful you are, or a bunch of people working to help your children?

I highly doubt that any 'reasonable god' (if there is such a thing) would choose the first scenario. A truly compassionate and loving god would want his/her children taken care of.

[LiberallyInclined]

39. any god that would allow so much death in his/her/it's name-

doesn't deserve to be worshipped, or even respected.

[slutticus]

41. Fantastic Post

:thumbsup:

[barb162]

42. good question; haven't people been trying to figure this

out for a few thousand years

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

43. The world's a sad place because of religion

It would be a sadder place without it. Religion is why I can run my errands without the thought of being attacked by cannibals even crossing my mind.

I can control my tendencies to commit heinous acts by other means than constructing a fiction about the origin, structure, and purpose of the universe. But I know that other people can't. So let them have their religion.

And please, let them have it somewhere where I don't have to listen!

[Schema Thing]

44. Worship: Silliest. Concept. Ever

That's how I started a similar discussion on another discussion board.

[neebob]

46. You can't be a god if you don't know how to smite people properly

and go around smoting them in the past tense. They'd be all, "Yeah, okay, whatever, dude - that already happened."

[karlrschneider]

48. A question well posed by Jubal Harshaw some years ago.

:D

[0rganism]

49. Star Trek: "Who Mourns For Adonis?" (TOS, season 2)

The crew of the Enterprise are waylaid by a mysterious power near the planet Pollux IV, and the usual suspects beam down to the surface to meet... Apollo, Sun God of the ancient Greeks. He orders them to abandon their craft and form a new society, in which they will worship him and he will grant them a utopia.

As the story continues, we find out that the Greek gods are super-powerful beings who left Earth when humans stopped worshipping them because the gods derived their powers from the worship of humans! Without the fear and adoration of humanity, they weakened and eventually allowed themselves to fade into the ether, with only Apollo remaining incarnate, waiting to be rediscovered. Of course, the landing party eventually rejects Apollo and his godhead (after he impregnates the episode's female lead), and he too fades away at the end of the episode.

"Zeus. Hermes. Hera. Aphrodite. You were right. Athena. You were right. The time is passed. There is no room for gods. Forgive me, my old friends. Take me. Take me. Take me..."

[Behind the Aegis]

53. SO cool!

I will have to look for that episode!!! It sounds way cool! Interestingly enough, some say the Greek gods didn't require worship, but people did any way. They were meant to lead in another way, more like an aspiration or inspiration.

[Yellow_Dog]

52. Because he needs your money

Read George Carlin on Religion

[More Than A Feeling]

55. Why do parents want their children to love them?

I agree with your conclusion of working towards a common benefit, but it is not necessary to look down on worshipping God in order to do so. One can quite easily do both, frequently at the same time.

[dxstone]

56. Pretty scary behaviour for a deity of Pure Light...

Adam & Eve &
The Monster From Heaven

The tale of Adam and Eve
Is entrapment, I believe
To place that tree so temptingly right there
And tell them they can't touch or taste it, like a dare
And when they do, to grab 'em by the hair
And kick 'em out The Gate and down The Stair
And tell 'em they just RUINED the universe
All God's creation shot–and what is worse
That they've invited now a dreadful curse
Upon their heads, and those of all their seed–
Thus punishment is brutally decreed
All for an apple stolen from a tree...
By children, LITTLE children, actually...

Who do you think makes the snakes in these tales?
Who raised the stakes with a cross and some nails?
Where's the true face behind all of these veils?
Pure light reflected in reptile scales?
True love refracted through horror and strife...
Mirrors in mirrors, and death within life...
Horror and happiness, true man and wife...

Why would God make us so clever and cute
And then grind us up 'neath the heel of His boot
Over a slight, just two bites from one dumb piece of fruit?

It doesn't take the wisdom of Tom Sawyer
Or all the education of a lawyer
To realize that God's a Great Big Voyeur...

Who made the world, so made the world debauched...
God doesn't really love us
He just loves to watch

D X Stone - 2002

more vicous verses (and occasional curses) at
http://presidentevilonline.com/poems.html

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dxstone]

58. I have this theory that Christ himself was an atheist...

He didn't believe in Dad; oh he'd heard the stories from his mother since just a little boy, but in time he came to doubt these impossible tales... he figured his mom was lying out of kindness, just so he wouldn't have to feel he was some sort of worthless little bastard; instead he was raised to believe himself a special child of near-infinite worth to the world... so, though not so sure about God or any of that, Christ remained throughout his brief life a big believer in Mom, though paradoxically, he didn't actually believe almost anything she said.
It wasn't what she said anyway. It was how she said it, and the love behind the words.
And the lovely way she smelled...

A god of infinite understanding and infinite love just wouldn't under any circumstances drown his children en masse when "He" became cross with them...
Religion is weird; without it, would the world be a better place, or darker than any of us rational humanists can imagine?
Still, there are some profoundly disturbing things about these popular religions and the tales they tell... and until the world actually somehow begins to sing in perfect harmony by the combined good graces of these holy agencies, many of us atheists and agnostics will continue to point out the glaring follies of dogmatic thinking and teaching which permeate human society through the churches of today, hoping perhaps to gently help some of you on the cusp of the revelation to take that final baby step into the void, and within its darkness to find the light of human reason, which is a little less blinding, and a LOT more warming and illuminating...
It is impossible, for instance, to justify a war based on human reason. There is NO instance in which a war can be justified, because war is an utterly irrational act. It makes about as much sense as treating the victim of a dog bite by actually biting the bite wound itself... it is worse than senseless, it is cyclic stupidity, capable of its own crazed and dark momentum...
But religion has been used since the dawn of time to incite men to violence and their foulest, most demonic selves... and the history of mankind, what we know of it anyway, is an unending tale of wars and wars unending, wars that last decades and decades, wars that consume entire lands and cultures in constant pointless strife...
Christianity has had 2000 years to prove its worth...
And on the 2000th anniversary of Christ's birth, good comatose American Christians from across the land managed to halt the Clintonesque forces of evil in their tracks and spin this country around in a sudden 180, and we're already halfway back to the time of the Crusades...
This is nothing against Christ. Seemed like a cool dude to me. I have no way of knowing if he was indeed the Coolest Frood in the Known Universe, but it doesn't really matter...
Christ wasn't the first one to say Do Unto Others, by the way, not by a long shot... he wasn't the first kind and decent man on earth; if there was not some measure of good in all men, just as there is a potential for evil, there would have been no previous histories, no great societies and empires... you can't build ANYTHING impressive if everyone is fighting and no one considers the needs of the other...
And Christ wasn't the last, either. Many have taken up the cross where he let off, have suffered as bad or worse, just as so many before him... but there are some self-imposed 'innocents' out there who seem to feel that Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough, that someone should be crucified and die for the sins of their immature and unexamined lives every damn day...
There's some really weird things about modern Christianity... but don't try talking to the Christians here about it; no matter how polite your approach, they tend to react EXTREMELY defensively...
You'd think with all that faith would come some degree of confidence. You'd think they wouldn't seem so frightened all the time.
Unless you really think about religion, and the sort of simple functions it fulfills for the average god-fearing penitent; then it makes perfect sense.
Mankind is like a bunch of little children who have been born and raised in the dark; and even in this age of reason (dimming now), they have been taught to be afraid of the light, and they blunder around with eyes shut and blinders on...
Their religions tell them they are not allowed to eat from the tree; they are not allowed to open their eyes.
D
ps: I am, for the record, agnostic... at least I think I'm agnostic...
I mean, how the hell can anyone really KNOW?
I DO kinda believe in god, but think ANY attempt to quantify it is a sin, as is capitalizing its name...
And I DO think god's watching us all, but only in the same way that we watch tv...
Sometimes I start thinking, "I wonder if God has Infinite Clickers so He can watch Infinite Channels from the comfort of HIS Infinitely Comfortable Barka-Lounger"... but then I realize I'm quantifying again, as a wise inner voice (that sounds remarkably like Gilbert Gottfried) yells, "Knock it off, dipswitch! Who do you think you are, Albert Fuckin' Einstein? God SEES you right now! God's looking RIGHT at you! You know why? Cuz you're being FUCKING HILARIOUS! God's LAUGHING HIS ASS OFF, going "What a DILDO!"
I DO think god finds us all hilarious... maybe someday we'll get the joke...
I love god okay; it depends on the weather, and the mood I'm in...
If god wanted me to love it more, it would make it so I'd find more money... whenever I suddenly find money, even just five or ten bucks left in a coat pocket and forgotten, I feel like, y'know, god is GOOD, god is GREAT! I LOVE GOD!!!...
Under five bucks doesn't really register on my hallelujah-meter... sorry...
But god knows that... god knows the score...
I just hope god knows what the hell it's doing... that's MY "faith."