The goals of the Iraqi Insurgency?

[Disturbed]

I don't understand what various factions are trying to accomplish. I just read that they are trying to disrupt the new Govt. If that is the case then they are not succeeding in that goal because the Govt. is pressing on albeit slowly. If another goal is to make the U.S. and it's allies leave Iraq that doesn't seem to be successful either. If they are trying to keep oil from being sucked out and sold that is proceeding also. Seems to me that the Insurgency is only succeeding killing their fellow Iraqis and very few U.S. personnel.

Your thoughts about this?

[ECH1969]

1. The insurgents have different parts

Each with their own goal.

The foreign fighters: Their goal is to kill Americans and Shia. The leadership of the foreign fighters like al-Iraqi (who actually was an Iraqi, but went off to fight with Bin Laden years ago) and al-Zarqawi want to make Iraq the next Afghanistan to launch attacks on the West from.

The Sunni insurgents: their leaders want to be the top dogs in Iraq and don't want to play third fiddle behind the Shia and Kurds. The low ranking Sunni insurgents want the US out and the Sunni community to be dominant.

The criminals: they just want to make money.

[LynnTheDem]

2. Excuse please...WHAT "foreign fighters"? The ones wearing US uniforms?

Or did you miss out on the info from the US military itself that the vast majority of "insurgents" are not foreign, they're pissed off Iraqis?

There are more "foreigners" in my little 2-horse-and-1-cow Central Texas town than there are "foreign fighters" in Iraq.

[ECH1969]

4. Was I measuring the size of each group

of the insurgency? No, I wasn't. I agree with you.

[LynnTheDem]

16. When you post only about a very tiny minority

and leave out the vast majority, that is deceptive, imo.

Most rebels simply want the real "foreign fighters" who invaded and now occupy their country to get the hell out...just as most of us would if the US were invaded & occupied.

U.S. Now Finds That Insurgents Are Mostly Iraqis

The battle for the city of Fallujah is giving U.S. military commanders an increasingly clear picture of this country's insurgency, and it is the portrait of a home-grown uprising overwhelmingly dominated by Iraqis, not by foreign fighters.

http://middleeastinfo.org/article4833.html

Insurgents Are Mostly Iraqis, US Military Says

The insistence by interim Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi and many U.S. officials that foreign fighters are streaming into Iraq to battle American troops runs counter to the U.S. military's own assessment that the Iraqi insurgency remains primarily a home-grown problem.

"They say these guys are flowing across and fomenting all this violence. We don't think so," said a senior military official in Baghdad. "What's the main threat? It's internal."

During the succeeding months, they say, the insurgents' ranks have been bolstered by Iraqis who grew disillusioned with the U.S. failure to deliver basic services, jobs and reconstruction projects.

It is this expanding group, they say, that has given the insurgency its deadly power and which represents the biggest challenge to an Iraqi government trying to establish legitimacy countrywide.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0928-21.htm

US, Britain holding 10,000 prisoners in Iraq

350 foreigners are among about 10,000 detainees being held in US-run prisons in Iraq, Iraq's Human Rights Minister Bakhtiar Amin Over says.

"US forces told us on December 23 that they are holding 353 foreign terrorists,"

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200412/s1273053.htm

1. My town has more non-Americans than that.

2. How many of these 353 "foreign fighters" lived in Iraq for years prior to invasion & occupation?

3. There are 31,000 non-American US soldiers. FOREIGN FIGHTERS!

Poll: Iraqis out of Patience

A USA Today/Gallup poll conducted in March concluded, “The insurgents...seem to be gaining broad acceptance, if not outright support. If the Kurds, who make up about 13 percent of the poll, are taken out of the equation, more than half of Iraqis say killing U.S. troops can be justified in at least some cases.”

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-04-28-poll-cover_x.htm

Nationalism drives many insurgents as they fight U.S.

But a wide range of interviews with Iraqis and U.S. officials here paints a starkly different portrait -- a growing, intensely nationalist resistance determined to remove U.S. forces and their Iraqi allies.

Sharif, who was among the exiled Iraqi opposition figures who initially supported the U.S. invasion, said the typical resistance fighter is a young man with a military background who opposes the occupation.

Wazan said the resistance is led by 20 to 30 armed groups across the country.

"This (insurgency) is a justified action for any people whose country is under occupation," he said.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/10/26/MNG659G46T1.DTL

[ECH1969]

17. Your point is?

I didn't measure the size of the different groups, I simply pointed out the different groups and their different motivations.

You want to point out the different size of each groups and thats fine, but you made your point and now you are trying hard to make it again when I already said agree with you, so what is your point?

[LynnTheDem]

18. LOL!

Have a nice day. :)

[moddemny]

28. Did you miss out on the fact........

that foreign fighters are probably responsible for the largest of the most heinous car bombing attacks. They may be fewer in number but they still have a great impact.

[LynnTheDem]

29. Really? And for proof you have what? Oh. coz BOOSH says so.

Uh huh.

[moddemny]

30. What's your proof of what you say?

a few old articles?


My opinion has nothing to do with what Bush says..... nice cheap shot on your part though.

[LynnTheDem]

32. Articles from people who should know, as they're there and/or they're the

rebels.

So sorry I didn't post enough for you; how many more would you like?

And what are you basing your opinion on, if not on bush, and not on any articles?

[geek tragedy]

37. So, do you think the people setting off the car bombs killing

hundreds of Iraqis are terrorists or freedom fighters?

[LynnTheDem]

38. I don't answer flamebait questions.

You & I have gone head-on too many times in the past for me to think your question is in any way an honest one.

Have a nice day. :)

[Disturbed]

5. It seems to me that the Sunni Ba'athists made a big mistake..

by not running their own candidates and getting their followers out to vote. The Shi'ites and Kurds are favored by the U.S. Iran favors the Shi'ites. By not participating the Sunnis have left themselves out in the cold. Maybe they really believe that the U.S. will pull out of Iraq if sufficient death and mayhem is caused. I do not believe that the U.S. will withdraw no matter how much blood the Insurgency causes to flow. Iraq is much to important to the U.S. strategically and oil distro to ever give up the goals of the Bush Junta and their Corp. backers.

[ECH1969]

7. There is another election in October

for the Constitution and one in December for the final government.

So the Sunnis will have another chance to vote and you can bet they will (unless Iraqi is in an all out civil war at that point). But, you are right, politically right now they have been mostly shut out of the new government. But, luckly the next election isn't 4 years away it is about half a year away.

[thebigidea]

8. I highly doubt they would've let the Ba'ath party reform and run people

[ECH1969]

10. Allawi is a Baath Party person

And, he ran. There were a number Sunni Baathists that ran, but since the Sunnis mostly boycotted they got crap for seats.

[thebigidea]

12. when? Decades ago? CIA for decades trumps Ba'ath.

extremely, extremely poor example.

[ECH1969]

13. There are no laws banning Baathists from running

period.

There where tons and tons of party lists in this elections. With many many Baathists on every different list. However, none of these ex-Baathists including Allawi made it into a major position in the government.

I didn't want to have to go look up names, so I used the most obvious one, but I could search for names if you want.

[thebigidea]

14. when did I ever doubt that? My original statement concerned...

... the Ba'ath party reforming and running candidates.

AS Ba'athists... not FORMER Ba'athists.

[Yupster]

24. Is it possible that

the Sunnis know that when they stop fighting the Americans, the US may leave, and that's the one thing they don't want because once the US leaves the Civil War hits high gear and the Sunnis will be screwed.

[Selatius]

3. The resistance is a conglomeration of various groups

It appears most of the groups are Sunni in nature, but I suspect there may be a couple or more Shi'ite cells that are operating as well. Each group has its own goals. Some want to reinstate Ba'ath Party rule. Others want to instate their own brand of religious fundamentalism. Still others are nationalists who want a country free from foreign domination. Then you have folks who are fighting out of revenge or grief for the loss of loved ones. The last group I feel terribly sorry for.

Globalsecurity.org has a fairly detailed look at what components of the resistance. There must be over 30 groups of varying sizes at last count. The only common goal is resistance against the US.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/iraq_insurgency.htm

[Selteri]

6. The vast majority want 1 thing

Us to leave.

The rest seem to want to fight to get their superiority back for their inferior numers.

[Disturbed]

11. The Iraqi Constitution will be forged by..

Shi'tes and Kurds. The next election will be quite interesting. The present situation could be altered in a dramatic way.

[DistressedAmerican]

9. Occupying armies are rarely defeated outright...

they are slowly bled to death. It will be slow and painful but we will leave.

[bemildred]

15. Kill americans? Kick our ass out of their country?

Just a guess.

[Just Me]

19. Maybe, they want freedom from US corporate possession/oppression.

If the Iraqi Army imposed its will upon our country,...what would we do?

:shrug:

[jazzjunkysue]

20. They won't give up their oil fields to us. Real simple.

They know this is all about the oil, and they're defending their most prescious resource from thieves: US. They don't want 14 permanent bases, and neither do their neighbors. It's all to get us to give up and go home. Sounds good to me.

[Generator]

21. I think they want the US gone and always have and always will

Which for us becomes a dog eating it's tail. Because we can't train anyone (or keep them alive) to be their own military. So we are forced to continue..and the attacks continue..and we can't leave until the country is "secure" or stable..so it looks to me like the most pointless thing ever.

We aren't getting out. We aren't making them safer. We will not back down. They won't stop until we are gone. Our ideology is eating us alive and not giving them a damn thing but an election. Sure, elections are nice, but a chance at not being in absolute terror all the time might mean more.

I will say what I always said..we should have gotten rid of Saddam and got the HELL out of there. Let them have it all and just say..no mess with us..no weapons..we no mess with you. But that would make sense. Instead, we have President Bush who thinks his job has something to do with Iraq. HEY dumbo-you are President of America,not Iraq. It's their country. We have no duty to give them "liberty". What we could do with those billions. Imagine. Lives and billions pissed away for a failed ideology. It's madness.

[Heyo]

22. I don't think it's any of those things..

...if they wanted the US out, all they'd have to do is lay back and not do anything. Their activity keeps US troops there longer.

To defend the Iraqi people? They sure do kill a lot of them. It's not that either.

I personally just think they are just sick f-ed up people who don't want anyone to succeed unless it's on their (uber-islamic) terms.

Screw them. I hope they get done to them what they've been doing.

Heyo

[LynnTheDem]

25. ...

:wow:

[bvar22]

23. Its about power.

The Resistance is WINNING in Iraq, even Gen. Meyers admitted as much last weekend.

It is impossible to determine how many Iraqis actually support the US presence in Iraq, OR the US supported puppet government. It is safe to assume that any reports from the US Government about their support inside Iraq is a BIG LIE. There are Iraqis who live and work for US Dollars inside the Green Zone who support the US. There are others whose families are starving who agree to help the US for money.They are bought, and are viewed by most Iraqis as collaborators. There will come an accounting in Iraq, and the collaborators will not fare well.

The Americans HAD one chance in Iraq. A quick invasion followed by a very quick privatization of everything, followed by Billions of US Dollars hitting the streets and a McDonalds opening on ever corner.
Needless to say, this was Magical Thinking much divorced from reality. Instead of opening Iraq to Americanization the US is pushing Iraq into the arms of Fanatics and Fundamentalists.

Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani is the ONE MAN who holds the power in Iraq. With a single word, he can put several MILLION Shiite fighters in the street as well as open the door to several MILLION Iranian Shiites.

So far, for what ever reason, he has held his people in check. He is a Muslim ascetic with a practical side and the BLIND OBEDIENCE of several MILLION Iraqis. Al-Systani knows that EVERYTHING will come to him if he waits. 10 years is nothing for a Muslim mystic in Iraq. The Iraqis have been there for thousands of years. They have seen Christian occupations come and go. Those who die at the guns of the American gangsters are Martyrs. It is the will of Allah. (They REALLY believe that.)

So far, the Americans have been very careful to NOT PISS OFF Al-Sistani. The ONLY reason the elections happened is because Al-Sistani told his people to let the elections happen and to go vote.


The GOAL of the Muslim Resistance is to simply fight. They will cost the Americans BLOOD, MONEY, and SUPPORT among the Iraqis. They will NEVER fight a set piece battle, or try to take or win anything. They will never try to BEAT the Americans anywhere for more than several minutes before they fade away. If the Muslim Resistance does this long enough, they win!


It would be better if you asked, "What are the Americans trying to accomplish in Iraq?" Have you heard ANY description of what victory will look. At what point can we say "We won!" and leave.

What does Stabilize Iraq mean, and when can we call Iraq stable? Was Iraq stable before we invaded? Before we inserted and supported Saddam? under British occupation? Has Iraq ever been stable?

[LynnTheDem]

26. Add: al Sistani DEMANDED elections; bush didn't want elections.

Sistani didn't just order Iraqis to vote; he demanded the elections in the first place. Elections bush didn't want.

Ain't it funny how bush then took all credit for elections in Iraq. That's just AWOL all over.

[wookie294]

27. You are misinformed

Iraq's oil exports are lower today because of the violence....

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/04/12/news/halliburton.html

The State Department reported last month that the Bush administration has started transferring reconstruction contracts from American companies to local Iraqi companies because Iraqis are "somewhat less susceptible to insurgency attacks."

Halliburton announced last month that it terminated its oil reconstruction contract one-year early because the violence is too intense. See link....

http://www.halliburtonwatch.org/news/earnings042205.html

Iraq's resistance fighters are succeeding against the criminal American invaders. I celebrate this good news. An American defeat in Iraq will make Americans safer.

[Dover]

Does the U.S. REALLY want to leave Iraq? I doubt it.

Only if there stated reasons for being there were for real. And we know they're not. So what ARE the reasons for them being there and how is that served by leaving?


Is Zarqawi "real" (the man we are told is behind much of the violence in Iraq)? I doubt he's much more than a convenient foe.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO405B.html

Would the U.S. benefit from a civil war there and/or in the Middle East?

Probably.

Yes, there are surely nationals who have become insurgents, but it would be difficult to sort them out with any certainty.

[Dover]

31. .

[Disturbed]

33. A different slant.

The bush Junta goal is not to extract oil out of Iraq. It is to keep that oil from other nations and profits of the oil corps is on the rise and so is the BFEE's buddies the Saudi Regime.

I went to the site recommended and feel that there are quite a few factions in this so called Insurgency with various goals. It does seem to me that most Iraqis feel that the U.S. Occupation should end ASAP. The Bush Junta is the words of the Stones just has the notion of "Let It Bleed".

[Dover]

34. article: Stirring the Ethnic Pot

Middle East
Apr 29, 2005

Stirring the ethnic pot
By Iason Athanasiadis

Riots by ethnic Arabs this month have raised fears that Iran's minorities could be used as a tool by Washington and its Arab allies to dismember the Islamic republic: Iran could be vulnerable to covert operations.


TEHRAN - Today's Iran is the latest manifestation of a great and endlessly undermined Persian empire that once stretched from Iraq to Afghanistan, embracing a multitude of ethnicities along the way. The Islamic republic that came into being a generation ago is a microcosm of its imperial past, with Arabs, Azeris, Bakhtiaris, Balochis, Kurds, Turkmens and Lurs co-existing alongside the majority Persian population.

But as this month's riots by ethnic Arabs in the southern province of Khuzestan demonstrated, Iran's multicultural milieu could also be its Achilles' heel, an open door for foreign opportunists seeking to infiltrate this fledgling nuclear power.

Iran is particularly vulnerable to foreign penetration in that non-Persian, non-Shi'ite ethnic minorities inhabit its extremities. Aside from Khuzestan's Shi'ite Arabs, there are Sunni Balochis in the southeast, Sunni Kurds and Shi'ite Azeris in the northwest and Sunni Turkmens in the northeast.

All these areas adjoin countries that are either hostile to Iran's ruling clerics or contain US troops. The United States has dramatically expanded its presence in the region post-September 11, 2001, even as it has raised the level of its anti-Tehran rhetoric. US troops and advisers currently reside in Iraq, Afghanistan, Azerbaijan, Turkey and Pakistan. At the same time, Tehran maintains ambiguous relations with neighbors Pakistan, Afghanistan, Azerbaijan, Turkey and Iraq, although it is currently on a regional charm offensive and a pro-Iranian government seems poised to come to power in Baghdad.

Tensions rising in Balochistan
While Iraq is already a proxy battleground between Tehran and regional powers Saudi Arabia and Israel, flashpoint areas for ethnic and other trouble appear along Iran's edges, too. In the arid southeastern province of Sistan-Balochistan, the Iranian army has been fighting for years a bloody campaign against organized drug-smuggling networks that run heavily defended convoys along the heroin route from Afghanistan to Europe....cont'd

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/GD29Ak01.html

[lala_rawraw]

35. I would say that given no Halliburton staff injuries...

Some of the fighters are citizens of Iraq trying to defend their land and resources, but others are paid assets fanning the flames so that more money is "trickled down" into the profits of war. Longer the war, the more the profits. Notice how and what type of people are abducted and beheaded and tell me how it makes sense that not a single employee of the war machines has been injured, hurt, shot, abducted, beheaded, etc. I would also ask how it is that 78 US journalists (I think US only, need to check) have been killed last year? How is that kind of selective "rage" possible? It is not. There are two insurgencies: one are the citizens and the other are the paid guns, both fighting each other and our own military.

[zippy890]

39. Are you saying that Halliburton

and other US companies are backing one of the insurgent factions? "Paid assets" - paid by whom?

Just trying to clarify. This thread is interesting, there are so many different ideas on who these different Iraqi insurgency factions are and what their goals are.

Notice our government's silence about these insurgent factions, and the bombings. Like its not happening.

And the media doesn't have the presence in Iraq - they are sealed off in the green zone fortress.

[lala_rawraw]

40. I am speculating...

I forgot to mention that. This is pure speculation on my part, not based on solid research. That said, I do think that the US is backing one faction and that is where the 9 billion went. War is profit for these people.

[ConsAreLiars]

36. Simple - to get the invaders out.

After that, many different segments of the insurgency, the patriotic resistance fighters, whatever you want to call them, have different goals. The strongest force, predictably, is Islamic theocracy, much of which (Sistani) is holding back at the moment, but even within that there are many differences, ranging from bad to worse. The longer the US occupation forces stay there, the more likely the most jingoistic forces will prevail.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

41. It's a war of attrition

You would imagine that the leaders of the various factions have read up on guerrilla warfare. In Vietnam, the United States could have probably had the military and financial ability to stay indefinitely, continuing to pump money and cannon fodder into that conflict year after year. (I'm not equating Vietnam and Iraq in every sense) In Vietnam the government was up and running, more so than in Iraq. The will of America and of the South Vietnamese government seemed to give out, however. I would think the object of the insurgency in Iraq is to exhaust the finances and morale of both the U.S. and the Iraqi people (those Iraqis who haven't yet joined the insurgency and who are cooperating with the US). Whether it works for them or not remains to be seen. We already see the signs of the US cracking, as Bush's poll numbers on Iraq are heading downward and military recruiting is coming up short. I imagine that news does not escape the insurgents.