Do you think the neotheocons are evil, or just wrong?

[leftofthedial]

Are they intent on being maliciously destructive--to the environment, the economy, the middle class, the Constitution, peace, weaker countries with oil . . .

Or do they really believe they are doing the right things and just screwing up through incompetence or error?

[TahitiNut]

1. "Stupidity is the same as evil if you judge by the results."

"Stupidity is the same as evil if you judge by the results." — Margaret Atwood

It's in my sig.

[leftofthedial]

20. I agree

I think that if you support fascists, help them seize power, defend their policies . . .

then you are a fascist. It matters not whether you chose the path due to an insatiable lust for power or greed or stupidity or gullibility or religious or ideological dementia.

[Psephos]

29. But if you judge by intentions, it's not

Which is why we prosecute some homicides as manslaughter and some as first-degree murder.

Intent is part of the fabric of right and wrong.

Just my two cents...

Peace.

[TahitiNut]

35. I think intent can only be inferred, not known. (See below.)

Even though we may be reasonably confident in our inferences, we can't be certain - not if we're really honest with ourselves.

I posted on this point below.

[leftofthedial]

53. but if you are ana ccomplice to a first-degree murder

you are charged with first-degree murder. Your intentions do not matter--only the acts fo the murderer you abeted.

[Psephos]

54. Good point

But I don't want to stretch the analogy too far.

In your O.P., you wondered about what's driving the neocons. They wonder the same thing about us on the left.

There are people on both sides who are grinding personal axes, but it's clear to me that both sides want good outcomes. The Simon Legree characterizations of our opponents act as a perceptual filter. We are absolved of serious analysis when we can simply dismiss opponents as evil monsters.

They're wrong, almost to a person, but only a few of them are evil. For the most part, they want a better world, but they don't see how to get there.

My opinion, of course.

Peace.

[Missy M]

2. Both!!

They are destructive to all the above and are wrong and don't care, so that makes them evil.

[BrklynLiberal]

4. I agree.

[leftofthedial]

17. But do you think they really believe their philospohy is correct

and that they intend their actions to accomplish a positive outcome?

I think they are a mixed bag of criminals raiding the treasury under cover of political controversy, stupid and/or ignorant suckers and irrational zealots.

In other words, I think the bushgang and the neotheocon leadership both ina nd out of government are evil criminals, cynically exploiting power to enrich themselves, but most of the rank and file are either just stupid, ignorant, gullible fools or religiously insane wack jobs or ideologically insane faux libertarians.

[Missy M]

24. I don't know how they can think their philosophy is correct....

I wish I could get into their minds to see how they justify what they do. I agree with your analysis of Bush and the neocons. I have always thought the rank and file are stupid and uninformed on the issues and can't see past their noses. I also believe many are religiously insane and nothing else matters but what the bible (or how they interpret it) is saying to them.

[TahitiNut]

30. I think intent can only be inferred, not known.

I often try to examine my own intent in greater detail, often with some sense of frustration when I even see within myself a knowledge of the range of possible outcomes, side-effects, and more base desires.

Something I've seen all too often is people taking a very extreme position, not because (I infer) they actually desire or believe that particular position but because (I infer) they're "gaming" the result - attempting to amplify the effect of their vote rather than actually honestly believing in the positions they take.

I think one of the more obvious examples of this is how people rate films in either IMDb or Netflix, knowing/believing their vote would be arithmetically combined with others to come up with an average. (That'd be solved if only the median were the result, but I digress.) In both the discussion of "Shakespeare in Love" on IMDb, and in the voting, we can see people voicing anger that that particular movie was awarded an Oscar instead of another. Along with such comments, we can see a bimodal distribution of voting, with an unusually abnormal number of people rating the movie as a "1" ... when the presumed normal distribution peaks around '8' or '9'. So, the reason I see this is because I really can't imagine anyone having such a low opinion of the movie ... but then I can't really imagine anyone having a high opinion of Chimpy and the Cons, either.

In this, we see (or infer) a kind of overt dishonesty. A reactivism that results not just in a migration of a personal opinion, but an overt extremism in gaming the system - an "all the votes are equal but I'll make mine more equal than others" mentality.

Now clearly, there's some real-world validity to such an approach. After all, when we steer a car we always need to turn the wheel past the point we actually want it to go as a 'correction' to getting off some optimal course. Thankfully, we can turn the wheel a LOT more often than once in two years, though ... and back off when we see the impact of our action taking effect in real-time. I wonder if we'll ever be able to do anywhere near as well in steering our ship of state ... or maybe there're too few hands on the helm?


On the other hand, it may all be in my imagination. :silly: (But I don't think so. :dunce: )

[yurbud]

3. both--self righteous blather covers agenda of theft

[Double T]

5. 200% Evil

[specimenfred1984]

27. Agreed

They are evil, know they are evil and keep doing it. That's twice as bad.

[BamaLefty]

6. Both

They believe they are doing wrong (deep inside), but yet it is for personal gain... making them evil as well.

[burn the bush]

7. most arre just wrong. Fallen prey to the scam. The ones who understand

what is going on are obvioulsly evil as are those dems who fail to stand against them.

I think the biggest part of the people really don't understand anymore than what has been preprogrammed for them.

[Rick Myers]

8. Completely EVIL

and completely wrong! :grr:

[PowerToThePeople]

9. Pure Evil is wrong

[The Backlash Cometh]

10. Definitely evil.

They believe that greed is an acceptable human quality. They encourage it in their young and believe that self-interest churns the economy. They have absolutely no concept of multi-dimensional thinking. It doesn't occur to them that the greedy create the needy and that some day, there will be payback when others feel threatened by the way they break rules.

[leftofthedial]

18. Reaganism run amok?

[The Backlash Cometh]

74. Well said. but "western-style Libertarianism" is not bad either.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[alittlelark]

68. Think about it.

[The Backlash Cometh]

73. Geez. I missed all the fun.

Can you give me the Cliff notes? Why did our friend get his message deleted?

[Just Me]

11. Undoubtedly, they have convinced themselves of their "rightness".

Their refusal to acknowledge the harmful consequences of their positions and actions is a choice for which they are responsible.

[Steel City Slim]

12. Good Question

They are wrong, there is no doubt about that. But is it because there are misguided and think they are doing right? Or is it because they deliberately want to destroy? I don't know. I would like to think they are just misguided, but I have a nagging concern that they are evil.

[Merope215]

13. Evil.

They believe that man is nothing but a self-interested economic actor and cover it with the cloak of religion. They disgust me.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

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[Merope215]

46. No

But I see a place for altruism, and, yes, spirituality in the human relationship to the world. I don't think most people are solely self-interested (see the Andy Stephenson threads, for example).

As far as I'm concerned, it's inconsistent as well as disingenuous to be obsessed with the free market - which reduces all human endeavors to the purely economic - while allying and masking that movement with one that claims that the human relationship to religion is so important that it should become the basis of American law. But that's just me.

[Chipper Chat]

14. Ever see the Twilight Zone episode "To Serve Man" ?

Neocons are all from another planet and are here to eat us. It's only a matter of time before they complete their cookbook.

[Wizard777]

34. Interesting spin

On the rebellion and war made in Heaven. God created man and Ahriman/Lucipher said, he shall serve the angels. God said No, the angels shall serve him. The fight was on.

[demgurl]

15. Perhaps a little of both.

My husband has a saying : not all republicans are evil but all evil people are republicans!

So perhaps they are evil with a sprinkling of dumb mixed in?

[leftofthedial]

19. That would have been my saying ten years ago or so

but now, I believe evil is as evil does.

If you vote for Bush, you are an accomplice to the crimes, from treason to human rights violations to theft to murder.

[tmooses]

16. They believe they are doing the "right things"...for themselves.

The theocons I have met personally feel they are part of a revolution to take back the country from Godless, immoral liberals.They do not think beyond that-the ends justify their means and they have no concept of the lessons that history teaches us about their methods. It does not really matter in the long run if theses people think they are doing right or not---they espouse characteristics of groups that are a threat to a democratic society.

[Finder]

21. I don't believe in evil.

Neo-cons are idealists. They were actually considered liberals at one point. Most neocons are not religious but have used those that are to further the cause.(common sense since they are the most easily persuaded)

They use psychology, economics, religion, etc. to convince others their way is the right way.

A lot of the ends they are trying to achieve are good ones, however the means are unacceptable in a democracy.

[Just Me]

22. What do you believe are the ends they are trying to achieve?

Just wondering. :shrug:

[agitprop]

44. *

read some intro Nietzsche stuff and you'll understand the perils of 'slave morality'

[Missy M]

25. I believe in evil...

everytime I see G.W. Bush's eyes.

[leftofthedial]

26. yeah. what good ends?

Their objectives, their desired ends, seem to me to be every bit as evil as their methods.

[Psephos]

32. Good post

This Manichean obsession with evil does us no service. Neocons are our political opponents, not sadistic psychopaths who delight in pulling the wings off flies. We should be analyzing their ideas and formulating persuasive counterarguments, not running around trying to paint them as eeeeeevil, and thinking that merely saying they're evil is going to make a dent in broad public opinion.

This evil thing is what's evil. For chrissakes, history is full of examples of what calling other groups evil leads to. Enough already. It's lazy, it's ineffective, and it leads to truly evil outcomes. Let's take these chumps down with better ideas and stronger arguments.

Peace.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

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[leftofthedial]

51. "evil" is the only word I can think of that describes the reality

of the neotheocon agenda

Every act seems to be designed to cause the greatest possible harm and suffering to others and to the planet while ensuring the maximum possible profit to themselves. Even the concept of "the truth" has been under attack. I don't mean simply that they lie, but that they make the truth irrelevant.

I don't know what to call this pervasive aggressive destruction except "evil."

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seabeyond]

23. they know not what they do

i guess it depends if we are talking leaders or followers. no i do not think the follwers are evil, i dont think they get it. and cant be evil if you dont get it. i think the powers that be absolutely know what they are doing. and the greatest evil, is leading hteir followers down this path, in my view, or the saddest anyway. as truly they are looking for how to love, being told it is thru hate and exclusion

[leftofthedial]

33. I think a huge number of Murkans are willfully, even aggressively ignorant

Partly through laziness, partly through fear that even a moment's inquiry will prove their cherished prejudices and superstitions to be a load of bunk.

Because the refuse to availa themselves of the knowledge that would inform them, despite it being readily available to everyone, I think they are culpable. They allow their "leaders" to do evil in their names and ehy do not object, or even actively support that evil . . . they are equally to blame.

[seabeyond]

37. cherished prejudices and superstitions to be a load of bunk.

yes i have heard them flat out state they refuse info for this reason, which even has me hanging mouth open wider in amazement, lol. yes, and it does make them culpable. why i am having such a tough time not being pissy to them. lol lo

but yes...........they do have to own their part

[johnaries]

28. The Leaders are Evil, the sheep are just stupid.

n/t

[Wizard777]

31. They have been deceived by evil. Now they are the deceivers of man.

[enid602]

36. rephrase question

Is Bush really the antichrist, or merely a fuck-up?

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

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[walldude]

43. Nope still don't understand.

I bet if you were an Iraqi parent holding their dead child you would think they were evil. Or if you were standing naked on a box with electrodes attached to you and a hood over your head, you would think they were evil. Or you walked into your neighborhood and saw most of it reduced to rubble, you would think they were evil. It's a matter of perspective, you don't like them because what they do goes against your best interests. well thats ok for you. I don't like them because they have murdered thousands of people in the name of "Freedom and Justice". The Iraqi people are not "free" we are not safer and tens of thousands of innocent people are dead. Sounds bad to me.. maybe even "evil".

--edit-- man the guy got tombstoned before I could even finish my reply... hehe

[leftofthedial]

48. How about an American who now has to live under a Constitution

that has been redacted like a Project Bluebook UFO document? Would you also think they were evil?

Or if you've spent the last 4 years inexorably losing your life's savings and watching your family crumble as a result? Evil?

Or if you watch loved ones die prematurely due to a lack of health insurance? That's pretty evil too.

I also agree with every one of your examples.

[bobthedrummer]

42. Evil in the same way the Nazi inner party members were-and corrupt,

they studied the black arts just like Col. Michael Aquino did in The Pentagon (located on land previously known as Hell's Bottom).

[leftofthedial]

47. I think the whole lot should imprisoned

until their reeducation is complete

[me b zola]

49. Evil.

eom

[Swamp Rat]

50. They are wrong, evil alien lizards.

[leftofthedial]

52. do you need special sunglasses to see them as they really are?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

55. I believe that the people at the top are sociopaths

and have figured out how to dupe the masses. They "believe" only in the way that a sociopath comes up with high-sounding justifications for his behavior.

The people farther down the food chain are motivated by varying mixtures of greed, callousness, and delusion. The closer you get to the grassroots, the larger the admixture of delusion.

[Bouncy Ball]

56. I used to believe that they believed they were doing the right thing

and that they were just motivated by the WRONG things (greed being the major factor) AND were probably pretty stupid, due to tunnel-vision, to boot.

But that has changed, slowly, over the past year or so. I now think they actually are intent upon being malicious.

I am starting to wonder just who the REAL America haters are.

And I think I know.

[Walt Starr]

57. Given some more time, the most evil people to have ever lived. nt/

[leftofthedial]

58. we agree

[Cats Against Frist]

59. To say that they're "evil" buys into the same absolutism/mysticism

bullshit that they're always harping about. I just say they're fucking crazy.

[Psephos]

61. I like it! n/t

[Eloriel]

60. Denial. They're mainly in denial, and interpret their beliefs and

actions as GOOD for everyone and everything when in fact it's mostly just self-serving garbage.

I think your term neotheocons is quite clever but after a few minutes' consideration, I want to make sure everyone understands that the neocons and the theocrats basically USE one another, they're not really one and the same. That's because the neocons respect religion as something of what Lenin called it: the opiate of the masses. The neocons see it as very useful for keeping the common man (and woman), to whom they are vastly superior, enthralled and busy and "moral" enough so that they can do what THEY do best (they believe), which is rule the masses.

And they RULE the masses in part by lying to them -- but you see, their lies are not only okay, they're required. The masses must not be told the truth, lest it be bad for them. Only the pure, the uber moral, the rulers are good enough to be trusted with the truth.

And so forth and so on. Their philosophy is really something to behold. It's worth understanding, and in case anyone doesn't understand some of the basics about neocon thought and political beliefs, I'll add some links. The key thing to note, I think, is that their belief system makes them unreachable. It makes them sociopaths, without guilt or conscience (or maybe they already are), and so there's NO WAY to appeal to them on the basis of truth. You can't tell them they're wrong, they're convinced they're right and that they're superior enough that THEIR belief is the correct one; they believe they have not just the right but the obligation to deceive, so deception is the rule of the day and you can't guilt-trip them out of it. They're unreachable.

They're also fascists. Their founder, Leo Strauss, was Jewish and had to leave Nazi Germany himself, but was also much enthralled with fascism -- in fact, so enthralled that he wished for a fascism that wasn't anti-Semitic, a fasicsm that included Jews, a fascism that was "universal." One of his students, Michael Ledeen, later wrote a book by that title: Universal Fascism. Alas, I haven't read it. I'd like to, but I'm also reminded of the fact that these Straussians, these neocons, are said to write in a very obtuse, non-disclosing style which masks their true intent unless you know the code.

A few links:

One more time: LEO STRAUSS AND THE NEO-CONS
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=7200&forum=DCForumID70&archive=yes
WAKE UP! - Strauss / Neocons and Terror PLUS dire warnings
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1780890#1781801

Leo Strauss and the Noble Lie: The Neo-Cons at War
http://www.logosjournal.com/mason.htm

Straussian.net -- Leo Strauss and the History of Political Thought
(with Discussion Forums! Book Reviews and a News Blog)
http://www2.bc.edu/~wilsonop/strauss.html

Leo Strauss' Philosophy of Deception
By Jim Lobe, AlterNet. Posted May 19, 2003.
http://www.alternet.org/story/15935
linked to from this thread: Has Straussian ideology permeated the GOP?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2121269#2122935

Eurolegal Services - Neoconservatives
http://www.eurolegal.org/useur/usneocon.htm

[CanOfWhoopAss]

62. Was the preacher that lead the lemmings in Poltergeist evil?

The leaders are evil the lemmings that follow are either to lazy to see and understand the truth or stupid.

[Cobalt Violet]

63. Evil. Wrong too.

[clem_c_rock]

64. DEPENDS - Hitler thought he was doing the best thing for his people

As did Pol Pot or any other psychotic regime.

What their opinion is regarding their actions really is a moot point - the outcome is what matters.

For reference sake, look at chemical weapons, napalm and DU used in Iraq.

[leftofthedial]

66. so when any random bushbot goes on TV and lies his ass off

do you think said bushbot believes they are telling the truth.

When the little bushturd tells us that Saddam has nookyuler weapons or that social security is the number one crisis in Murka, he really believes it?

[AlwaysDemocrat]

65. Evil and scary

The exhibit contempt for those who disagree and disregard for the rest of the world. They (and those who follow the neocon agenda) have caused harm.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

67. Purely Evil. Sociopaths each and everyone....... n/t

[entanglement]

69. 99% evil, 100% wrong n/t

[Digit]

70. Evil...totally evil

When you are not upholding the values this country stands for;
When you lie for any reason, whether to get your agenda through, or to cover up your past misdeeds..
When as a public servant, you are not governing FOR the people;
I could go on, but I am sleepy.

[kodi]

71. read "the Despoiling of America" and you'll never doubt they're evil

http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheDespoilingOfAmerica.htm

[oblivious]

72. Evil. Racists. Mass murderers. Greedy pigs. Fools. Cowards.