Lovely people, the Bridal grab 'n run

[forgethell]

More than half of Kyrgyzstan's married women were snatched from the street by their husbands in a custom that is known as "ala kachuu," which translates roughly as "grab and run."

snip

Recent surveys suggest that the rate of abductions has grown steadily over the past 50 years and that currently at least a third of Kyrgyzstan brides are taken against their will.

snip


Families use force to keep the women from leaving or threaten the young women with curses that still have a powerful impact in this deeply superstitious land. Some families put bread on their doorstep to prevent an abducted bride from fleeing or an elderly woman of the family will lie across the threshold: stepping over either will supposedly bring a lifetime of bad luck.



http://www.iht.com/bin/print_ipub.php?file=/articles/2005/04/29/news/bride.php

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. This one of those "some cultures are better thab other cultures" threads?

[forgethell]

3. Aren't they?

Would you like to live there? Neither would I.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

11. A few things

1. Rape isn't prosecuted very well in this country and perhaps you forgot the Anita Hill hearings.

2. This is why our foreign policy should be tied to human rights

3. What was your point in posting it?

[forgethell]

13. OK.

1. Rape isn't prosecuted very well in this country, but it's not overlooked, either. One-third of the married women in America were NOT abducted and forced to marry. Do the Anita Hill hearings really compare with this? That's just sick.

2. I'm all for human rights. OK, you're President. How do we stop this practice dead in its tracks? Rapidly. Not over the course of the next 50 years. What is your foreign policy? Do you have one? Do you even have an idea what to do?

3. I don't need any particular point; I thought it was an interesting article on its own. However, I won't try to weasel out of answering you that way. My point is this: as many faults as America has, it's a lot better place than most, if not all, others, IMO. Some people seem to forget that, or maybe that's not their opinion. OK, fine. I just want to throw a few facts out there for them to chew on.

[Cash]

16. Excellent Points!

"...as many faults as America has, it's a lot better place than most, if not all, others..."

While it appears as though I have not traveled as extensively as you, one does not need to venture too far from our borders to see just how good we do have it. Even our poor have it great compared to the rest of the world. The water in our toliets is cleaner than many countries drinking water. That's not to say we shouldn't contantly be looking to improve the lives of our fellow citizens, but we really are very fortunate to live in America.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

20. I have travelled extensively

And when comparing America to economic EQUALS that statement does NOT hold up that we are better. We are NOWHERE NEAR the top in even INFANT mortality rate and the things happening in that town would be MORE prevalent in America were it not for the feminist movement which ELEVATED the status of women...if fundamentalists has their way the status of women would deteriorate as rapidly in America as it is in that nation.

[Cash]

26. I've been around.

I've been throughout Central & SA, Europe, parts of Asia. Given the choice, I'll gladly take here over those places without hesitation. If others have formed differing opinions, that's up to them, but it doesn't influence what I've seen and what I know to be true.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

56. Welcome back

:hi:

YNGW

[bvar22]

46. According to most data,

the USA isn't even in the top ten when considering a broad base of data to determine the Quality of Life.

The last BBC survey says US 13th.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

35. Republicans like to point out that our poor live better than the

people in Bangladesh or Somalia. Actually, they'd be well off only if they could have an American poverty income AND pay Bangladesh or Somalia prices.

[forgethell]

41. This is somewhat

off the subject, which is about the rape & forcible marriage of women in some other countries. So I won't comment on it.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

57. What about the 13 year old in Fla being forced to give birth?

[Swamp Rat]

103. Amazing isn't it?

The Taliban are right HERE in the USA!

[Pithlet]

97. Rates of homeless children are rising in the US.

We have thousands of homeless children in this country. And their ranks are growing. The good old US of A land of opportunity. We have thousands who are and will die because they lack health insurance. People who will be denied life saving medication because they don't have the money.

As long as we have children without homes, even one, we cannot claim superiority. As long as one person dies because they couldn't get their heart medication or their insulin, we cannot claim superiority.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

19. Better than most if not all others and you use some backwards

poverty stricken nation with archaic notions about who women are to prove it? How about comparing the US to an economic equal when making that assertion?

As far as Anita Hill goes...for an allegedly ADVANCED society, we didn't do well in her case.

As far as what is MY foreign policy goes..yeah...I would tie all forms of AID and trade to human rights reforms.

[forgethell]

21. Are most nations

the economic equals of the US? I must have been misinformed. I suppose a taste for things European rather than American might make one prefer the EU to, say Illinois. I don't, so I live in the USA. What's your excuse?

So Anita Hill was raped and forced to marry her rapist? Damn it, I am misinformed.

Gonna tie all foreign aid and trade to human rights reform? Yep, that'll get them to change their ways right spiffy. Look how long it took for Rhodesia and South Africa to come around with a world wide boycott that almost everyone respected. How long do you think it will take with France busting the boycott at every opportunity?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

22. One can really support your position if you twist the words of the prior

post...how nice

[forgethell]

27. Twist the words?

I don't think so. But maybe I misunderstood. Can you explain a little more clearly what you mean? I did say, did I not, that I prefer the USA to Europe? This is whom I assumed you meant when you talked about our economic equals. Was I wrong? Who, then?

You'd rather live in a country where a sexual killer who cannibalizes his victim gets 6 years because his victim wanted to be cannibalized? You'd rather live in a country where doctors can kill babies against the will of the parents if they think their life will not be worth living? Or old people against their will so that resources can be freed up in their hospitals.

OK. Your choice. But I don't consider that a better option, myself.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

32. lol

You'd rather live in a country where doctors can kill babies against the will of the parents if they think their life will not be worth living?

You mean TEXAS?

[forgethell]

38. Them, too.

But I meant the Netherlands.

[Swamp Rat]

104. Je moet je bek houden! Ik houd van Holland!

Holland is one of the greatest places on Earth.

[Misunderestimator]

61. Wait a minute here... Are you saying that we should simply be satisfied

since we are so much better off? Well, we, as a human race, are also better off than veal calves stuck in little boxes, except for the billions of us that don't eat. What's your point? That we shouldn't complain about our government, or the inequality of our citizens, or our country's killing of innocent Iraqis?

Well, thanks, I feel so much better now. Complacency is so much easier than protest. I'll just pretend that everything will be ok, because, heckm America is just so much better than the rest of the world. :eyes:

[forgethell]

71. I don't think that

I said anything about complacency, or not protesting governmental actions we disagree with. I just think maybe we might show a litle concern about women in this position.

[Misunderestimator]

76. I think we all DO show concern for those women. You seem to imply

that we should drop everything else to focus on that, and stop complaining about our country's problems. That we should somehow feel better about the shit we're in because others have worse shit.

[forgethell]

78. Nobody said

that you should stop complaining about our coutrie's problems. Show me where I said that.

I'm just surprised that no one seems able to be outraged about more than one problem at a time.

[Misunderestimator]

81. Show me where I said you said it. You implied it. Please explain

what your point was if it was not to demonstrate how much better off we Americans are? And if that was your point, what's the point of demonstrating it? We ALL know that there are many societies with more pain and suffering than our own. It's part of being a liberal to empathize with others' pain.

The only thing you COULD have been implying is that we shouldn't complain so much since we have it so good. If not that, then what exactly WERE you implying?

[Beetwasher]

82. His Point, In His Very Own Words:

"The point is that there is plenty wrong with the world that doesn't occur in America or for which America is to blame."

Duh. :eyes:

[Misunderestimator]

84. Thanks... didn't want to wade through this a second time...

Seems pretty gosh darn clear what the point was.

[forgethell]

83. I saw a problem

I thought it should be pointed out. I wasn't actually implying anything regardless of what you may have inferred. Not everything has to have hidden meanings.

I only stated the positions I did in response to the attacks upon me. But that doesn't mean that I don't agree with them.

[Misunderestimator]

85. Hold on... you state positions that you don't agree with to backup your

argument when you are attacked??? :wtf:

[forgethell]

87. NO.

I agree with the positions I took. But I was neither stating them, nor implying them when I first posted the article. I just thought this was a problem that should be addressed. I'm not snake-subtle like some of you guys on this board are (I don't know about you personally, of course). What I say is pretty much what I mean.

[Beetwasher]

88. LOL! "Not snake subtle" LOL!!!

You sure aren't. You ain't foolin' no one.

[Misunderestimator]

95. LOL... Slick you are...

calling me a snake... but then saying you aren't calling me a snake... how very cute. Subtle... that I do try to be. You're right that you aren't.

[carnie_sf]

17. More like

a what the fundies have in store for us thread.

[sui generis]

2. but you still have to wonder about this

"abduction" -- if everyone's doing it then it's certainly the easiest way of getting out of dowering your daughter if you just "give up" looking for her after she's been "abducted".

Get her married, and get out of dowering her . . . don't mean to be callous but I'll wager that there is probably some complicity some times.

[forgethell]

5. That seems to

be a very callous attitude. You can get out of dowering her by murdering her, too. What's the difference if that is your goal.

Nope, odd as it may seem, I believe that women, even women in poor, and dare I say it, backward countries are individuals entitled to all their human rights. Including the right to choose their own mates without threat of force.

Call me silly that way.

[sui generis]

9. sorry, I lived in Pakistan for a while

I dare say, backward countries, for sure, and I could tell you stories that would make you grow a third nipple on your forehead.

I sure hope you weren't implying that I agreed with it, because your response did seem a touch snarky.

Just call me sui.
:hi:

[forgethell]

12. It was a bit snarky.

I quote, Get her married, and get out of dowering her . . . don't mean to be callous but I'll wager that there is probably some complicity some times.


If you could explain how this could be interpreted as anything but "it's OK if the woman's family co-operates", I'd be interested in reading it. Maybe you just wrote in an ambiguous manner. But if the woman doesn't want it, then I don't care who else does, myself.

You can call me FH, or Jerry if you prefer. I spent 2 1/2 years in the Philippines, myself, with visits to Japan and Hong, plus a few other experiences. As you say, it's frightening the way some people have to live.
:)

[sui generis]

15. I think you misread

I'm saying I've seen worse things and similar things - and probably in their minds allowing your daughter to be kidnapped isn't as bad as outright murdering her, unlike your suggestion. Somebody who couldn't get a dowered bride gets married and someone who couldn't afford a dowery gets off the hook.

I suspect it happens. That's all. An observation, not a position statement. Of course I find it deplorable, as I find having to defend myself to your challenge on this deplorable.

Perhaps you should have worded it differently too. :Outraged-I-tellya:

:)

[forgethell]

18. OK, I'll

accept your explanation. Seeing how as in such places as China in the early 20th century, and in several Southeast Asian countries today, poor parents are selling their (very) young daughters into brothels, your position isn't totally unreasonable. It does happen. I'm glad we can agree that that doesn't make it right.

[Misunderestimator]

63. LOL... You should get a prize for misinterpretation...

I simply don't believe that you misinterpreted sui's post, I believe you know exactly what you're doing.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

65. Seems to happen quite a bit

a pattern, one would say. :eyes:

[Bridget Burke]

4. It's not a simple story....

As reported on Frontline, more brides are kidnaped in rural communities than in the city. And the practice was (mostly) forbidden under Communism. And the practice predates Islam's arrival in the area.

www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/kyrgyzstan/lom.html

Some Kyrgyz are trying to change the system--& it really is up to them. What I mean is--perhaps there's a Kyrgyz women's group that needs contributions. Or we could work with the UN's Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women, which has reported on the practice. Oh, wait--we need to "reform" the UN--not work with it.

Is this story part of a campaign to show why we should invade a country that just happens to have oil?

[forgethell]

6. Well, yes it's

pretty simple. Get raped, marry your rapist, or live a shunned life of shame and humiliation, probably ending in your suicide.

I see nothing complicated about it. And I am not offering a solution. I'm just pointing out a problem that, well, many people do not seem to see.

[Cash]

7. Thank you for the article.

It's good for us to be presented with things like this that make us squirm in our seats. Hopefully as more and more people become aware, it will lead to something being done about it.

[forgethell]

10. Well, I hope so. n/t

[bleedingheart]

8. At first I thought Filene's Basement? and pictured women grabbing dresses

but this is just sick..

[forgethell]

14. Yes, it is

and it goes on all over the world.

Maybe 30 years ago, when I was young. I read about the same thing happening in Sicily. The young woman refused to marry her rapist, and had him prosecuted instead, shocking her whole village. If she had married him, he wouldn't have been prosecuted. I trust things are better in Sicily now. But there are still a lot of places where this goes on.

[Beetwasher]

23. Err, Yeah, So, WTF Is Your Point?

We should shut the fuck up because we've got it better than Kyrgyzstan?

[elehhhhna]

24. Apparently that's his point: Compared to the worst, we're okay.

[tabasco]

40. Woooohooooo!!!! We're better than FuckedUpistan !!!!

I'm SO PROUD to be an American !!!!

[Bridget Burke]

25. Perhaps we should invade....

They've got oil, you know. We've been besieged by stories about women mistreated in Iran, as well.

Pakistan? Saudi Arabia? They are our good friends!

[forgethell]

28. So, unless

it's something evil you can use to bash the USA, you're not interested in it? You don't loathe it as much as some corporate tax-dodger, say? Un-fucking-believable!

What! You can't be outraged at more than one thing at a time??

[Bridget Burke]

29. Yes, we're all America-haters here.

You have found us out!

[forgethell]

30. Now, I didn't

say that. But if the shoe fits.

There are those here who cannot see evil unless it is America doing it. Well, they shouldn't be blind to that. But they shouldn't be blind to that done by others, either.

[Bridget Burke]

31. Thanks for confirming my suspicions.

I hadn't noticed your Flaming Feminism elsewhere at DU.

[forgethell]

33. Possibly because

I am not a feminist. I do, however, believe that women are entitled to respect and basic human rights, including the right not to be raped, the right to choose their own spouses, and the right to seek justice for the wrongs committed against them.

Same as anybody else.

thank you for confirming my own suspicions. ;)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

36. And I believe that bullshit like that article has America which is an

ADVANCED society say to itself "see...we're not so bad...we don't sell our women and do THIS!!!!"

[forgethell]

39. Nobody has

claimed America is perfect. However, that's not the point. The point is that there is plenty wrong with the world that doesn't occur in America or for which America is to blame. Maybe we should put a little effort into getting it corrected. Just a thought.

[Beetwasher]

42. If That's Your Point, It's Idiotic

And, like, duh. Who's blaming ALL the world's ills on America?

How should we correct it? By invading every third world shithole and making the people's lives there even WORSE? Like Iraq? Yeah, women's lives in Iraq are so much better, now. I mean, we don't hear about anyone being kidnapped there, right? No rapes either right? How about the children in Iraq? There all thriving and doing wonderfully, right?

Or, maybe our association w/ the repressive regime of Saudi Arabia is a real move in the right direction foreign policy-wise in pushing a human rights agenda, because they are such a model for everyone else, right? I mean, aren't they so wonderful to their women?

:eyes:

[forgethell]

43. Well, there's

all kinds of political pressure that could be brought to bear.

Still, you and I have a different idea about what is idiotic in the world. My only concern, when I first posted this, was to get the message out that it was happening. Everything else has been defending this action from the snide remarks of some people on this thread.

[Beetwasher]

48. "My only concern, when I first posted this..."

Sure it was :eyes:

I ain't buyin' what your sellin', pal.

All kinds of political pressure? By whom? Bushco.? Or are you suggesting DU take up this issue and pressure US lawmakers to do something about it? Go for it if it concerns you so much.

Just for the record, I'm quite aware of this problem, and it's actually my job to help do something about it. And also for the record, Bushco. DESPISES the organaization I work for and the work we do helping unfortunate people like these women. Bushco. is doing everything in their power to make our job more difficult.

[forgethell]

51. "Go for it if it concerns you so much."

That's what I'm doing.

Don't you have congressmen and Senators? Congratulations on your job of doing something about this. What, exactly? Collecting money? How is it spent?

Friend, I don't care what you're buying, I'm not selling anything. But I will express my concerns without worrying if your feelings get hurt. Sorry, but that's the way it is, and I expect no different from you.

[Beetwasher]

52. None Of Your Business

I won't get into my work any more than I already have.

"Express your concerns" all you want :eyes: I'm sure I do more in a day to address these issues than you've done in your whole life.

[forgethell]

55. Whatever,

Feeling a little morally superior, are we?


Goodbye

[Beetwasher]

59. Indeed

Buh bye! :eyes:

[Bridget Burke]

66. Your title for this thread "lovely people.."

Doesn't imply feelings of moral superiority?

[forgethell]

70. Well, I guess

I do feel a little morally superior to rapists. Yes, considered thought tells me that I am.

[Beetwasher]

73. And I Feel Morally Superior To You

I am actually out there doing something meaningful about this problem, while the only thing you do is sit wherever you are and pathetically whine that DUers aren't doing enough and are only interested in hating America and America bashing because they think America is responsible for all the ills in the world (though I've never seen a DUer make that claim, only YOU made that claim).

As if DUers should be responsible for solving all the ills of the world. DUers should take up every single issue that YOU think we should. Whiner.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

44. Maybe we should correct our own shit first and stop looking at some

barbaric practice elsewhere to justify our shortcomings

[neweurope]

102. I think that you're "correcting" enough just right now.

Seems like a good idea to me if you went on correcting some things in your own country for a change.

We can NOT expect every country to be as "enlightened" as we are at the same time as we are; while Europe was stuck in the darkest middle ages the Muslim world was quite enlightened for instance. If you argue that everybody has the same human rights I agree, though; and for me the only way to ensure they really get them is to strengthen the UN and to fight globalization.

The practice is certainly abominable if all of it is true - and usually "strange" customs are not all that correctly reported in Western media -; but the only way to do something about it is to support natives of the country in question who are already fighting it.

While it is certainly true that there is plenty wrong in the world that doesn't occur in America or for which America is to blame it is also true that America IS to blame for a lot of the gravest problems the world has right now. This abominable "custom" is NOT one of the gravest problems the world has right now. And if you - and we - don't do something about the gravest problems and do it pretty soon abominable customs in little countries will soon be nothing to worry about at all - compared to a wasted planet for instance.

--------------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[forgethell]

45. I answered the

question. Here's the point, then. This shit is happening to fellow human beings. What are we planning to do aabout, other than attack the messenger. Personally, I think some people are overly defensive.

It's easy to call people names, but not very brave, after all.

[Bridget Burke]

47. Well--what are YOU planning on doing about it?

Please inform us.

[forgethell]

53. Well,

all that I can think of to do, that is that I have the power to do, is publicize this to as many people as possible. It will probably be as effective as the campaign to get the MSM to pay attention to election fraud, and as useful. That is to say, not much.

As a start, I would have thought that progressives would be outraged by the egregious violation of women's rights, but I have now learned better. I will contact my Senators and Representative, and yes President Bush. I will write letters to the editor. I will do what I can.

That's all anybody can do. How about you?

[Beetwasher]

50. Yeah, Ok Chester, Whatever You Say

So, what are YOU going to do about it? Huh?

For the record I work daily to do something about problems just like this one, if not in fact this exact problem. It's my job.

[forgethell]

54. See

post 53.

And what, exactly, do you do??

[Beetwasher]

58. I've Already Told You As Much As I'm Going To

About what I do.

Good for you! Contact your reps, I'm sure Bushco. will get right on it, because we all know how much they care about women, especially women in third world countries.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

37. One wonders what the thread starter thinks of our alliance with Saudis

gosh..no barbarism there! How many state beheadings this year so far?

[forgethell]

49. Why would you

think that I approve of our alliance with the Saudis. They, too, have a somewhat loathsome culture, in many ways. But what does that have to do with anything? Sounds like a change of subject to me.

:)

[Misunderestimator]

67. Actually, it sounds like a very good reason to look at America's problems

and why we are friends with such a "loathsome culture." Quite in keeping with your *ahem* subject to point out the US's complicity with barbaric friends.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

68. Sounds like she's trying to establish a pattern

how do you feel about our alliance with the Saudis? Do you think it's beneficial?

[forgethell]

74. No, I don't

I think they were and are behind a lot of our troubles in the Mideast. I think they mistreat their women, and hell, their men too. I think they have a brutal, dictatorial government. I think they still engage in slavery (read Arab News for a week or two.

That said, I met several very decent Saudis when I was in school. But their government sucks big time.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

77. It sure does. I think it's only a matter of time before they're overthrown

[forgethell]

80. From your lips

to God's ears.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

69. Dupe

[e75]

60. pbs

pbs has a documentary on this. Girls explained how they hated their men at first, eventually it gave way to love. Besides the kidnapping part they were treated good, probably had a better marrainge then 95% of Americans from the looks of it. Doesn't seem right to us, but remember what happened last time this country felt all culturally superior and invaded an innocent nation to change the system?

[The Magistrate]

62. And Does That Mean, Sir, You Approve Of This?

People as a general rule manage to reconcile themsel;ves to whatever becomes their lot in life, particularly when it is approved by the culture they were raised in, and that culture includes a predominant strain of fatalism in its grounding rowards life's events.

It does not change the abhorrent nature of this practice, that it is impossible for me to find any ground consistent with left and progrssive ideals to approve of or defend in any way....

[forgethell]

64. Thank you for your post.

I was feeling pretty lonely out there.

[e75]

72. No

I'm saying that to forcably change the culture of these people is more wrong then the culture itself. To these people sex outside of marriage is as abhorent as you view this practice. They view American culture, with teenagers having sex and so forth, to be as abjorent as you find theirs. Would they be justified in forcibly changing us? no. Would we be justified in forcably changing them? no.

[The Magistrate]

79. An Interesting Point, Sir

But to my view, anyway, the element of coercion is a substantial difference in the complaints, making them not even close equivalents.

What is abhorrent to me is the use of force to compell a woman to a life another chooses for her, without her prior consent. It has nothing to do with sexual activity, which is itself a very minor sphere of morality, which is properly concerned with the question of when, or even if, it is permissible to disregard the interests of another in pursuit of one's own interests. Sexual behavior is merely one field in which this question must be answered before acting.

It does not bother me at all to denounce as abhorrent any practice which so disrespects the inherent rights of any individual to a choice of life paths free from forcible coercion by another person. Any culture which enshrines any practice that does this is inherently flawed, and cannot rightfully be defended.

The question of whether anything can, or even should, be done about it from outside the culture is a seperate one. Social engineering, particularly by bayonet, has scant attraction for me, mostly on pragmatic grounds; it has seldom proved successful, without the exercise of tremendous and broadly applied brutality....

[Bridget Burke]

89. Of course bride stealing is an abhorrent practice.

But the thread starter stated his purpose here: "There are those here who cannot see evil unless it is America doing it." He has displayed no real interest in stopping the practice--only in pointing out that we here at DU are all America haters.

Recent news stories have pointed out atrocities against women in Iran--just as our government beats the war drum. The Kyrgyz Republic also has oil. But Saudi Arabia & Pakistan are our allies & can do no wrong.

[forgethell]

90. I did not say that

either.

[The Magistrate]

91. Or Perhaps, Ma'am

He expected initially a thunderous chorus of "What an abhorent thing!" and merely expressed dismay at being received otherwise. Mind-reading is not in my line, so it is not possible for me to say. In my own reading, there seem to have been, over the years, a great number of tales emerging from the Middle East and Cebtral Asian regions of outrages agaibst women conducted routinely, so that it is part of the general awareness of people here that being a woman there is no easy row to hoe.

[Beetwasher]

93. For The Record, The OP's Point, In His Very Own Words:

"The point is that there is plenty wrong with the world that doesn't occur in America or for which America is to blame."

He wasn't looking for our collective outrage, he was looking to backhandedly slur DU as mere America bashers/haters. There's more evidence in other posts of his as well.

[The Magistrate]

96. The Statement, My Friend, Does Have A Context

Do you think it would have been made if the bulk of the initial replies had been, "That's outrageous!"?

[Beetwasher]

98. Yes

It's not the only post that supports my feelings about the intent of the OP. This poster is very much "concerned" w/ all the supposed "America bashing" and the blaming of America for all the worlds problems that supposedly goes on here at DU.

"3. I don't need any particular point; I thought it was an interesting article on its own. However, I won't try to weasel out of answering you that way. My point is this: as many faults as America has, it's a lot better place than most, if not all, others, IMO. Some people seem to forget that, or maybe that's not their opinion. OK, fine. I just want to throw a few facts out there for them to chew on."

[Misunderestimator]

99. Certainly true, but the tone was forecast with the opening words...

"lovely people"... and solidified with subsequent posts. Of course it's outrageous by itself, but when there is a hidden agenda that clearly blames us for complaining about our state of affairs in this country when others have it so much worse, the reactions are going to be different, and the post becomes more outrageous in its implied accusation.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

75. Of course, it's abhorrent, Sir

I'm simply opposed to ANYONE using the abhorrent practices of third world nations to claim American superiority when we are partners in the war on terror with some pretty abhorrent nations.

The threadstarter admits in the thread that the purpose of this thread is to claim SOME societies are better than others. Rather than compare us to an economic equal, the thread starter compares us to a third world nation in terms of the treatment of women.

"All things being equal" would make for a better starting point..not to mention as I have previously that HERE IN FLORIDA the STATE is forcing a 13 year old to give birth..perhaps we are catching up to these 3rdworld nations in our assbackwardness...no?

[The Magistrate]

86. As With Most Things, My Friend, It Is A Question Of Degree, To Me

There is nothing inherently related to economic lack in this practice. There was a time when this area was the center of a continental empire rich from tribute and trade, and the practice persisted through that period. It is a product of a certain view of the world and of people and their rights, or lack thereof, that has been reproducing its pattern there for a very long time.

In these elements, Ma'am, it is my view some societies and cultures are deficient relative to others. A person who thought women ought by right to be chattel, of course, would quarrel with that characterization in this case, but would still be asserting the same principle, albeit in a mirror. To my way of thinking, cultures that circumscribe more greatly the rights of the individuals who constitute them are deficcient, and it does not seem to me any accident that those cultures which give the nmost free play to the rights of the individuals constituting them are more prosperous and play a dominant role in the world today.

The incident in Florida is indeed grotesque and despicable, but it is also a single incident. It is not yet a general practice throughout our country, though it is certainly true there are some who wish to see it a general practice here, and are working to achieve that. They must be opposed and defeated. It seems to me that when persons of left and progressive views spend any energy at all in apologetics or justifications for things like this practice of marriage by kidnap, they weaken greatly their ability to oppose the people who wish what is occuring in Florida to become a general feature of our culture. To the great apolitical body of people, it simply sounds like selective outrage and hypocrisy; they expect people who denounce outrages against women, for example, to denounce them where-ever they occur, and if they see this is not being done, will take no denunciation seriously....

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

92. I certainly wouldn't apologize for nor justify the practice

I simply would not use their practice to claim OUR superiority as the threadstarter did.

Some cultures may be more advanced than others in the area of human rights, but that then makes their rights abuses all the worse since by their own definition, they are advanced and therefore should know better.

It's no secret that many cultures keep women down. The left should not be selective in their outrage, and the right should not be so selective in making claims about backwards nations while ponying up to some of the worst offenders.

[The Magistrate]

94. Then We Are In Substantial Agreement, Ma'am

With only these caveats, perhaps.

Anything but denunciation of a practice like this will be read by many as apologetics for or defense of it. The subtleties of difference are hard to sustain in a debate touching on fundamentals.

In terms of respect for women's rights, the West is superior to this culture.

While it is true that, in the sense you suggest, violations of women's rights in the West can be seen as "worse" because they are against the culture's own principles, this should never be allowed to obscure the great fact that women in the West do enjoy tremendously greater freedom overall.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

100. Yes..it's probably being perused by our opponents now..funny that

Anything but denunciation of a practice like this will be read by many as apologetics for or defense of it.

It's almost as though the thread is tailor made for such a mission.;-)

[countryjake]

101. Certainly is outrageous...

One thing which you forgot to note is that this practice has steadily been on the increase in the past decade, during which time Kyrgyzstan was repeatedly held up as a shining example of "golden democracy" by the USA, welcoming the government into the WTO and encouraging "western influence" to promote individual economic concerns there. You seem to ignore the extreme poverty this nation has now been thrown into, under the repressive power of a president who had the full support of our own government, which would be one of the underlying reasons why such a return to these traditions has begun, along with the desire of certain fundamentalists to resist attempts to "corrupt" their customs with a Western agenda.

That show of unity by demonstrations that ousted Akaev and DEMANDED equality and accountability in Kyrgyzstan's recent elections, an honest media, and release of prisoners held for organizing and dissenting against corruption in that government, shows some hope that the people might be able to regain control and focus on building a responsible, functioning system that could address so many of the human right's violations that have been on the upswing there. Hopefully, organizations such as the UN groups which once struggled to bring awareness to these practices and the Human Right's Watch will now be allowed to return and continue to educate and aid in bringing attention to them. Supporting the UN and HRW is one positive way our dollars can directly help and stop such oppression of women, worldwide. Show solidarity with the women of Kyrgyzstan who are actively breaking the chains of tradition!


Women wear pink ribbons as a symbol of their opposition to the Akaev government at a demonstration in Jalal Abad province, March 15, 2005. © Giaz Tokombaev, Kyrgyz Committee for Human Rights



A woman in Jalal Abad province holds a poster with a picture of President Askar Akaev crossed out during a protest against unfair parliamentary elections. Some protestors at the March 15 gathering called for President Akaev’s resignation. Demonstrators have adopted pink scarves and ribbons as symbols of their opposition to the unfair elections. © 2005 Giaz Tokombaev, Kyrgyz Committee for Human Rights


(one small note) The article you cited also failed to mention that of those "grab and run" marriages, fully half of them are simply a lighthearted attempt of loving couples to re-enact the "marauding custom" of their ancestry, much like weddings here in which the groom swoops the bride off her feet to carry her over their new threshhold. The real snatchings are one of many serious offenses in the subjugation of women being perpetrated there.