why has the 'Dean is unelectable' meme resurfaced?

[pruner]

last week there was an article in the Washington Post that said Republicans were finally acknowledging that Dean could/would be a formidable adversary, and the Dems were beginning to accept the notion of Dean being a viable candidate.

however, now that Clark is in the race, all of a sudden the right is again talking about how easy it would be to beat Dean, and some on the left are referring to Clark as the only electable candidate.

can someone please explain this to me.

[Clete]

1. It's the opposition proving as usual that they don't

know what is going on among us, the unwashed masses. They don't have a clue. Months ago they were laughing at Dean as a candidate without any chance in the world of even getting any recognition. They can't say that now.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

2. Dean Is Electable, But IMO Clark Is More Electable

Clark has a one-up on foreign policy and Southerner status. He is also strong on domestic/economic issues, with his Masters in Economics from Oxford, his teaching of Economics at West Point, his investment banking background and his business dealings.

While Dean might be stronger on government experience on the domestic side, I believe Clark's outsider status can be spun as a positive thing.

Dean has a larger grassroots base for now, and much more cash in the bank. I believe Clark has strong potential to play "catch-up" on both of those fronts very quickly, however. Clark also has more experience on and contacts with television and will use that to his best advantage to try to neutralize some of Dean's head start on supporters and money.

I think the next few weeks will be very key in determining how this race will shape up. Lots of people were down on Clark for not saying he's a Democrat, and for not announcing he's running. My response to those was to just be patient, and now both of those issues have been neatly disposed of.

Now people are saying he doesn't have the supporters, he doesn't have the cash, and it's too late. My response to that is the same, be patient. I bet both of those issues will be neatly disposed of (or at least they will be well on the road to being neatly disposed of) as well, in the next few weeks.

Just my $0.02.

DTH

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Because Dean is a threat to them

but oh boy, with their actual base Clark is a worst threat.

Now reality is Clark on the ticket (I do not care what possition)
is not a bad idea... from the strategic point of he has the
national security angle that the Right has apropriated. He also wore
the uniform, and all the slander campaigns AGAINST real soldiers,
(McCain, Clark, and many others), are starting to really piss off the
real military community.

That is why Clark is emerging.

Now the Right would rather have bush run against Dean as they perceive him to be the weakest candidate. Their real nightmare:

Dean \Clark

Clark \ Dean

Both are outsiders

both are mavericks,

Both have brass balls.

Hope this helps you.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

4. Clark/Dean Is Stronger Than Dean/Clark, IMO

The top of the ticket is obviously the most important. Clark is a Southerner, and while Southern Democratic nominees for President have had a better shot than non-Southerners, Southerners haven't had much effect in the VP slot. Additionally, my opinion is that it's easier to "transfer" domestic policy experience from VP to President than foreign policy experience, since the popular perception of foreign policy is a rather macho one, with the President always making the ultimate call.

As a military man, Clark would also appeal to more independents and even moderate Republicans at the top of the ticket, while Dean may not have as much luck. I also believe the new people who were brought into the political process with Dean will still support him if he's VP. I don't think that remains quite as true for the independents and moderates who Clark might attract, if Clark is merely the VP.

Just my $0.02.

DTH

[creativelcro]

5. Clark?

Clark = plot by the Dems to allow Hillary to run in 2008; period.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

6. Such Cogent Analysis! Such Incisive Commentary!

I am blown over by your discerning perception. Thank you for educating me, your powerful words have of course swayed me over to your side.

Down with Clark! Creativelcro has show me the light.

DTH

[pruner]

8. let me start by saying that I'm a Clark fan, but a Dean supporter

I'd be happy to have either one at the top of the ticket, and ecstatic to have both on them on there.

while Clark may indeed have greater appeal to independents, I believe that he has far less appeal to women than Dean does, and women make up a much larger percentage of the voting public than independents do.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

9. I Don't Think That's Accurate

My recollection was that both Dean and Clark had significant gender gaps, with more male support than female.

I agree with you, though, either at the top would be strong. I just believe Clark/Dean would be stronger, is all.

Peace!

DTH

[pruner]

11. I'm pretty sure polls show Clark with a much wider gender gap

but since I don't have any such polls in front of me, I'll admit that I may be wrong.

[dorktv]

19. There is usually a few more women then men at the dean

meet-ups I have been to and hosted. One key thing is women are mostly in the few actual postitions here in AZ. Like the district coordinators and stuff.

[CWebster]

7. More likely it is DLC strategy to promote Clark while attacking Dean

They are terrified Dean will sweep them out.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

10. We Agree on One Thing

I think the DLC prefers Clark over Dean.

That doesn't mean Clark is bad. That doesn't mean Clark is a DLC puppet. All it means is that the DLC believes Clark is more electable than Dean. All it means is that Clark is probably able to attract support more readily from the middle than Dean.

I believe Clark ran because he wanted to run, not because the DLC put him up to it.

DTH

[CWebster]

14. Yeah that DLC strategy has really been working for the past 2+ years

The reason Dean resonates so much with the base and has been so widely sucessful is because he challenges the dominating forces in the party that have sold out the party. People are angry about that and the DlC doesn't like Dean because he tells it like it is and appeals directly to the people instead of being some manufactured commodity to maintain the status quo.

[artr2]

15. Part of an email I got today

Sums up what I feel very well!


It is obvious the Democratic Party establishment
is scared to death that Dean may actually pull this off - get the nomination
and win the Presidency. Banks, international corporations, the WTO and similar
entities don't care if you are a Republican or Democrat, as long as they have
their claws in you. They prefer Republicans but will get along just fine with
a Democrat as long as they can control him. Dean is thriving because of us
and not them. Their boys Kerry and Gebhardt and Lieberman and Edwards are
being trounced by Dean, so, now we have Clark.

I do not believe for a minute that the party controllers actually believe
Dean will take us down the slippery slope of oblivion. I believe they realize
his is a candidacy independent of the corporate status quo and party 'leaders'
(there's an oxymoron for you). They are trying to pull a switch on us with a
guy who is likable and who appears to be similar to Dean on his views regarding
the Iraq war and other issues. Problem is, he has never been tested with the
reigns of power. Just what I want, a military man running the country during
a time of unfettered military presence and power everywhere on the planet.

I am not saying Clark is a bad guy or anything of that nature. I just find
it curious that
he is being backed by establishment (Clinton people) types in hopes of
derailing Dean.
As we battle amongst ourselves let us not forget that this is a fair battle
to have. I am a Democrat who is sick of congressional Democrats supporting the
right wing Republican agenda - tax cuts that are sucking our treasury dry, a
war in the middle east that is clearly about oil and money while wrapping it
in fear based slogans and patriotic nationalism, the Patriot act which was
written with the help of Senator Graham and I am sure other Democrats pitched in.
They all voted to erode our civil liberties. Who needs terrorists when our own Congress inches us toward a fascist state?

A lot of people want a straight talking candidate who actually makes sense on
a ream of issues. Dean makes McCain look like Pinochio. A ton of people
hate what is happening to our country under the bush oligarchy. Dean can win and
they know it. I know it and believe it and so will millions of Americans as
long as we continue to introduce Dean to Americans who are very concerned
about the future. The only way Dean will lose the nomination is if we give up and
believe the lies they keep throwing at us.

[ibegurpard]

18. Don't know about Clark

But I believe that this is why there is such panicked opposition to Dean. He's getting most of his support and money not from the Democratic "establishment" but from grass roots. They wouldn't have as much influence because he'd owe them no favors.

[Pepperbelly]

17. Who do you support?

I intend to give your candidate exactly the same level of criticism and deprecation that you give mine. Enough with the same baseless bullshit that is a product of nothing more than the paranoid fantasies of Rush Limbaugh, Christopher Ruddy, and the lemming lefties.

So who is it that you support?

[chaumont58]

12. I'm wondering the same thing

One of the bloger sites I visit, yesterday said Dean would probably lose(counterspin.blogspot.com). Today, Eric Alterman thought Clark would be more likely to win, and that Dean would lose in(his words)a washout. Alterman cited Clark's experience in foreign affairs and military service as something Dean could not match, and as something that would be indespensible. I've already stated my belief that both foreign policy experience and military service are canards, that are, in short, just plain bull shit. The last elected President to have foreign policy experience and military service was Bush(ver 1.0). Some sucessful presidency. Dean doesn't have to be his own Secretary of State or Secretary of Defense or even Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. Nor does any president. To raise the issue is just bull shit. Bush is immenently beatable on every god damn issue. What issue is he not beatable? Lying? Losing the most American soldiers in a worthless cause? The economy? How to win friends and influence people? Landing on a carrier?
There is a reason why ten people want to run against this smirking chimp. They think the son of a bitch is a dead bang loser.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

13. The Issue Is Perception

I agree with you, you don't need to be a general to have good foreign policy, and you don't need to be a Congressperson or a Governor to have good domestic policy.

That said, the great mass of voters, many of whom are ignorant or lacking in attention span or interest, have the PERCEPTION that a general is going to be balls-out awesome on foreign policy. My sheer opinion is that the converse on domestic policy (that you have to be a Congressperson or Governor to have good domestic policy) is not necessary as true.

For this reason, I think Clark has an edge that Dean does not. And I love Dean.

DTH

[chaumont58]

16. Clark has edge before a campaign

A side benefit of a campaign is voter education. If the election were held without any campaign at all, then the on-paper advantages are trump, but candidates do campaign, and people find out things. In the case of Bush, what was found out was false, but we can partialy give thanks to the beltway whores for the wonderful condition we find ourselves in now.
The bloggers who are downgrading Dean's chances know there will be a campaign. That's why what they are doing make no sense to me. The DLC, perhaps, I can see. They are Bush lite, and want really to run a right of center Dem. Dean won't kiss their collective asses, either.
Still, it will all come out in the real primaries. The rubber will met the road. All the talking heads will actually have to shut up and let the people vote.

[dorktv]

20. No matter what it is ALWAYS more important to be able to handle

domestic policy...Remember our Greatest Democratic President?

[Eloriel]

22. I couldn't agree more, chaumont

Hell, *I* could run rings around Bush2 policy-wise -- he HAS no policy. Plus, it doesn't take a lot of "foreign policy experience" to go apologize to the whole rest of the world. That's a no-brainer.

It's a canard. I also don't frankly believe that having served on this or that or the other committees in Congress passes as "foreign policy experience" -- especially for those for whom all that "experience" did NOTHING because they ended up apparently believing what the rest of us knew were lies.

Eloriel

[uptohere]

21. oh please don't throw me in that briar patch Brer Bear

sometimes the old tricks work best

[Brian Sweat]

23. Do not impune too much expertise on the part of the GOP

It is folly to assume that your opponent is infalible and that their motives are based on a clear understanding of the situation. They put their pants on one leg at a time just like us. We have seen over the last three years that the BFEE is not the well oiled machine they would like us to believe. Deluding ourselves into thinking that they are could play into their hands.

The truth is that they are scared. Their guys numbers stink like chilly farts and they are desperate to undermine any Democrat that has a chance to win the DNC nomination. Dean is in the lead and he has a strong base of support. This scares the shit out of them. Clark also scares the shit out of them. They are going to do their best to play Dean and Clark against each other in the hopes of weaking them both so that they will have an easier time in the general election. We need to keep our eye on the prize, deflect their attacks and fight back.