Don't tell me how to raise my kids!

[nonconformist]

And I won't tell you who you should sleep with. Deal?

Stay out of my bedroom, stay out of my uterus, and stay the hell out of my living room too.

All this spanking stuff is getting out of hand a tad. Yes, SOME PEOPLE ARE ABUSIVE AND THAT'S WRONG. We should definitely speak up about child abuse. Most people don't think a open palmed swat on the clothed bottom of a toddler who just ran into traffic is child abuse though. Some do, apparently. I happen to think that brainwashing kids in a freakish fundie environment, or with total lack of discipline or any respect for elders or authority are forms of child abuse too, but you know what? In America, we're supposed to be able to raise our children they way that WE see fit, barring abuse or neglect, like it or not. It goes both ways. Some might be appalled at the parents who accept their teen's homosexuality. Some might be appalled at the parents that opt for a family bed and still nurse their toddlers. But it's nobody's damn business. If I beat my kid, then it's your business.

Spanking is a personal and individual decision. If you chose not to with your kids, then that is great and your choice. Painting everyone that choses to with a wide and broad abuse brush is insulting and potentially damaging though. Get CPS involved in normal, healthy and loving family that occasionally spanks and you've just turned their world upside down.

For what it's worth, as a young child I was spanked rarely and I didn't feel abused. The abuse came later, as a teen with a stepparent who would hit me with objects and fists anywhere on the body. THAT WASN'T SPANKING, THAT WAS BEATING AND IT WAS ABUSE.

When my kids were little, I rarely spanked - never in anger, never with more than an open palm on a clothed bottom and only when they did something that was potentially dangerous to them or others. They are wonderful, bright, respectful children now who don't fear me or their father one iota. They behave out of respect for themselves, and for me, their dad and adults in general - mostly due to values they were raised with and the benefits of attachment parenting. They didn't turn out to be such wonderful, well-adjusted, confident and secure kids because spanked them, but I'll be damned if they ever almost got hit by a car again because of it.

[roguevalley]

1. I was spanked about three times in my whole life. It did me good.

Animals cuff their cubs for a reason. Beating and spanking aren't the same thing. This no spank crap makes for nutty and icky kids sometimes. It never hurt us to get a swat on the butt.

[radwriter0555]

2. Spanking is child abuse. Child abuse is everyone's business, because

if a parent is beating a child, then something is terribly wrong with either the child or the parent and the parent needs to be taught how to properly deal with the situation.

[madmom]

10. there is a major difference between spanking and beating...n/t

[radwriter0555]

33. I disagree. Raising one's hand to anyone is abuse. Would you spank

your wife, or your husband or your neighbor, were they to engage in behavior that wasn't suitable to you?

Tell me please at what point you raising your hand to ANY other person without them first hitting you, that it wouldn't be criminal assault?

Think about it. Other than YOUR OWN CHILD, in the USA it is illegal to raise your hand against anyone else, unless you're acting in self-defense.

Your CHILD apparently has less rights than does anyone else you know.

[Maru Kitteh]

74. I'll bet their spouse isn't 2 1/2 years old.

You want to give that toddler a beer, a gun and a vote too?

There are reasons for these things. Get back to us when you have kids.

[TheOriginalAmerican]

78. You don't have to raise your spouse.

At least, I hope not. :D

There are many ways to hurt a child that does not involve spanking.

It's all about the attitude a parent has when they discipline their child (using whatever method). If they are calm and doing it in love, then it's not abuse (unless they really do hurt a child by bruising them or something else). That goes for any form of discipline.

I could easily apply your logic to grounding. Would you ground your spouse? Grounding your child is child abuse. Come on. :)

[Carni]

67. Hence the reason we have bush in office and the RW whackos in control

EOM

[ldf]

68. luckily

YOUR opinion is irrelevant.

i was spanked many times. i always deserved it. and i NEVER felt that my mom, dad, or little mama (maternal grandmother that lived with us and helped raise us) did not love me.

i realized that there were times that my actions could result in physical discomfort.

a child will test limits. sometimes saying no just isn't enough. we're gonna do it, come hell or high water. we HAVE to learn that there ARE limits.

a willingness to discipline, to me, shows love.

letting a child run wild does not.

the child may learn a much harsher lesson from the real world, once they are in it. it is better that they are prepared. it is better that they know their actions must be within limits.

time outs, etc, do nothing but show the child that their own actions will not result in anything OTHER than a time out, or having to go to their room, or maybe a little less tv. now how bad is having to go to your room? i enjoyed being alone in my room for hours because i like to read a lot.

why don't you ask children how many actually did things because they KNEW that there would be no repercussions?

YOU have serious issues separating discipline from abuse. i suggest you work on those issues rather than trying to convert everyone else to your point of view.

it's not going to happen.

[Carni]

72. It sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders

There is abuse and then there is "what the hell were you thinking you could DIE from that behavior" accompanied by a swat on the butt.

Sorry, I am in the let my kid live camp - moving cars leaves marks as do fires and a host of other dangers.

[Maru Kitteh]

73. Bullshit

You don't have any kids, I'd bet my brownies on it.

Spanking is not beating. Spanking every day is a terrible and ineffective way to discipline your children. Spanking on rare occasions for the right reasons is a very effective perfectly good way to discipline your children.

[quinnox]

3. good post

I agree, it is none of other peoples' business how others choose to raise their child, as long as there isn't criminal abuse going on.

It just proves that there are a lot of busybodies (an oldfashioned term) around even in this day and age.

[Dogmudgeon]

4. What brought this on?

I, for one, am an "anti-spanker", but it never occurred to me to harangue anyone who didn't abusively beat their kids. It's difficult enough to raise children without being subjected to evangelism.

I'm also not a big fan of Pope Benedict, either, but I figured I'd give him a few weeks to make his papal direction known. And I don't think much of Laura Ingraham's politics, but she's got cancer, and I hope she gets well.

There's been a lot of rage on DU lately. It is not a good thing. Calm down, let the evangelists spend their own fury, and do something you enjoy. It just ain't worth it to develop hypertension over a bunch of people with short fuses who don't even know you.

Good luck!

--p!

[redqueen]

5. Spanking is violent. If you're okay with that, I can't change your mind.

I can't control you, and it sounds like your children are already grown, so I don't see the motivation for your subject line. :shrug:

Either way... if anyone out there has kids and is spanking them, please at least read this.


Eight Dangerous Myths About Spanking
By Debra L. Stang, LCSW
January 2002

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This article examines and refutes some of the most common myths about spanking. It may be reprinted in its entirety if credit is given to the author and a link is provided to Project NoSpank at www.nospank.net

A few nights ago, I was talking to a friend when the subject of spanking came up. I could not have been more surprised when her first response was, "I can't say I'm totally against it. What if a two year old is crawling for a hot stove?"

This is not an uninformed woman. She and I both cut our clinical teeth working with victims of domestic violence, child abuse, and sexual assault. We have seen over and over the harm and damage caused by interpersonal violence.

Yet for some reason, she is still not able to set aside the old wives' tale which holds that spanking, unlike any other form of hitting, is a benign practice.

I'm sorry to say my response to my friend wasn't a particularly enlightening one. I managed to gasp out one or two rebuttals, but mostly, I just stammered in shock.

The confrontation, and my response to it, got me thinking about the most common myths people use to justify hitting children. In this article, I've examined eight of those myths and I've provided the researched, reasoned responses I wish I'd had ready for my friend.


Myth #1. Being spanked never hurt anybody.

This makes little sense for many reasons. First, the whole idea of spanking is to inflict at least temporary pain. People who advocate spanking are well aware of this. For instance, James Dobson, founder of Focus on the Family and unapologetic advocate of spanking, has noted that "pain is a marvelous purifier" (qtd. in Greven, 1991, p. 68). Other spanking advocates have recommended corporal punishment severe enough to leave redness, welts, and even bruises on the child's skin (Greven, 1991, pp. 79-80).

Since most children are spanked on the buttocks-a part of the body they have been told is "private"-they feel shame and humiliation as well, along with an uncertainty about how "private" that part of their body truly is (Johnson, 2001).

But even beyond the mortification and the physical hurt, there is a longer-lasting emotional pain. Among many other negative outcomes, being spanked has been linked to:

Low self esteem (Bryan & Freed, 1982)
Depression (Straus, 1994)
Masochism (Straus & Donnelly, 1994)
Psychological Distress (Turner & Finkelhor, 1996)


Myth #2: I was spanked, and I'm okay.

Most smokers never develop cancer, most drunk drivers don't get into wrecks, and most children who grow up in homes with lead paint do not suffer brain damage. But no intelligent adult would seriously advocate smoking, driving drunk, or using lead-based paint to decorate their walls. There's also one more thing to consider. Most people who were spanked are "okay" in the sense that they aren't in prisons or psychiatric facilities. However, corporal punishment is handed down from one generation to the next. Compared to people who were not spanked, people who were spanked as children are more likely to spank their own kids (Muller, Hunter, & Stollak, 1995). Let's put that in plain English: People who were hit when they were vulnerable children are more likely to think it is acceptable-even desirable-for a fully grown adult to use painful physical force against a small child. How okay is that?


Myth #3: Some children need a good, hard spanking.

Let's look at who really benefits from the spanking. The child? No. Other interventions work just as well in the short term and better in the long term. Furthermore, the spanked child is put at risk for many negative consequences (see Myths 1, 5 and 8).

Rather, it's the parent who benefits, in two ways. First, the parent achieves immediate results-results which could also be gotten through non-violent methods. Second, the physical punishment gives the parent a release of anger and tension-a kind of catharsis. Using a non-violent form of discipline such as time out or even a verbal command ("Don't touch!") will alter the child's behavior just as effectively, but it won't provide the parent with the same degree of emotional release (Carey, 1994).

In other words, parents continue to spank because spanking meets some of their own misguided needs. It does not benefit the child.


Myth #4: Spanking is the best way to stop dangerous behavior in toddlers.

Small children have short attention spans when it comes to long lists of rules. Spanking may stop the behavior in the moment, but not any more effectively than non-violent discipline (e.g., time-out, saying "no," etc.). With toddlers no method of discipline, including spanking, works reliably for more than a couple of hours (Larzelere, Schneider, Larson, & Pike, 1996).

There are only two ways to keep toddlers safe. The first is adjusting the environment (for instance, keeping sharp objects locked away or out of the child's reach, or building a fence around the back yard to provide a safe play area). The second is providing careful, loving, and nonviolent supervision.


Myth #5: Being spanked keeps children out of trouble.

Being spanked has consistently been linked with aggressive behavior (Frick, Christian, & Wootton, 1999), including domestic violence (Simons, Lin, & Gordon, 1998) and cruelty to animals (Flynn, 1999). Jordan Riak, who works with convicted felons, has noted that close to 99% of the men in his groups report being spanked as children (personal communication, 1/9/02). If the goal is keeping children out of trouble, spanking is clearly not the way to go.

There is another problem as well. While spanking may teach some children to avoid certain behaviors out of fear of punishment, it does not teach the child to think about what is right and what is wrong. Rather, it teaches the child to ask, "Will I get caught?" and "Will I be punished?" Spanked children do not learn to measure their behaviors against their own moral beliefs. Rather, they rely blindly on the judgment of those in authority-those who have the power to punish. If the person in authority gives unethical orders, the results can be tragic. It is no coincidence that a society where physical punishment was the norm gave rise to the most shameful words of the twentieth century: "I was only following orders."


Myth #6: Nothing but spanking works on some children.

First, let's look at the child's age. If the child is a toddler, for instance, no method of discipline, including spanking, is going to reliably curb certain behaviors for more than an hour or two at a time. The frustrated parent may get some emotional payoff from the spanking. The child will only be harmed.

Second, were the alternative methods of discipline being used correctly? I once spoke with a client who told me she "had" to spank her four-year-old daughter because the child wouldn't stay in her time-out chair. The length of the time-out? Four hours! No child can be expected to sit still for four hours with no diversion-to demand it is abuse. While it is beyond the scope of this article to discuss the vast number of successful non-violent methods of discipline and how to use them, many parenting websites and books do just that. A quick search of the internet or the local library will provide dozens of effective alternatives to spanking.

Finally, some parents misperceive the actual value of spanking. They may, for instance, spank their child repeatedly for the same misbehavior, but declare time-out or some other non-violent means of discipline a failure when it does not stop the problem behavior after only one trial. The research, meanwhile, is clear: even in the very short term, spanking does not work any better than non-violent means of discipline such as explanation, time out, or verbal command (Larzelere, Sather, Schneider, Larson, & Pike, 1998; Roberts & Powers, 1990). There is no reason to strike a child. Ever.


Myth #7: Spanking isn't hitting or violence-it's discipline.

Imagine this scenario: an aide at a nursing home for Alzheimer's patients discovers an elderly woman poking at an electrical outlet. The aide immediately slaps the woman hard across the buttocks several times, reducing the woman to tears.

Has the woman been hit? Most of us would agree that she has. Has she been a victim of violence? Most of us would agree to that, also. Furthermore, even though there is no permanent injury to her physical being, every state in the United States would define what happened to the woman as abuse. The aide would certainly lose her job and might face criminal charges as well; the facility would be in danger of losing its license.

But substitute "two-year-old" for "elderly woman" and "parent" for "nursing home aide" and all of a sudden, our perceptions change. The hitting and the violence become a "spanking" and even some of the most dedicated child rights activists start referring to the incident as "sub-abusive." Why? The two-year-old is equally hurt and humiliated by the blows; he or she is no better able to defend against them; and he or she is not more likely to get any benefit from them.

The fact that our society has arbitrarily decided to offer protection to one victim and withhold it from the other does not alter the truth: spanking is hitting and it is violent.


Myth #8: Spanking is not harmful if it's done by loving, supportive parents.

If anything, it may be even more distressing for a child to feel loved and supported by the very people who perpetrate violence against him or her. The child could learn to confuse love with violence, or to believe that it is okay to use force in the context of close, loving relationships. Or, the child could begin to feel worthless and believe he or she deserves physical violence.

Not surprisingly, the research shows that the negative effects of spanking persist, even among loving and supportive families. The negative effects that have been studied in the context of family support include antisocial behavior and conduct problems (Frick, Christian, & Woottton, 1999; Gunnoe & Mariner, 1997), teen dating violence (Simons, Lin, & Gordon, 1998), masochism (Straus & Donnelly, 1994), and psychological distress (Turner & Finkelhor, 1996).

The research is clear and has been for some time: Spanking causes harm. No matter how or why it is administered, it is not benign or beneficial. It is physical violence. And, like any other type of physical violence, spanking scars its victims emotionally.

We have spent too many years ignoring the research and accepting the myths about spanking without bothering to investigate them fully. The time has come to confront these myths and stop finding excuses to hit children.

References Bryan, J. W., & Freed, F. W. (1982). Corporal punishment: Normative data and sociological and psychological correlates in a community college population. Journal of Youth and Adolescence, 11, 77-87.

Carey, T. A. (1994). Spare the rod and spoil the child: Is this a sensible justification for the use of punishment in child rearing? Child Abuse & Neglect, 18(12), 1005-1010.

Flynn, C. P. (1999). Exploring the link between corporal punishment and children's cruelty to animals. Journal of Marriage and the Family, 61, 971-981.

Frick, P. J., Christian, R. E., & Wootton, J. M. (1999). Age trends in the association between parenting practices and conduct problems. Behavior Modification, 23(1), 106-128.

Gunnoe, M. L., & Mariner, C. L. (1997). Towards a developmental-contextual model of the effects of parental spanking on children's aggression. Archives in Pediatric Adolescent Medicine, 151, 768-775.

Johnson, T. (2001). The sexual dangers of spanking children (2nd ed.) . Alamo, CA: PTAVE.

Larzelere, R. E., Sather, P. R., Schneider, W. N., Larson, D. L., & Pike, P. L. (1998). Punishment enhances reasoning's effectiveness as a disciplinary response to toddlers. Journal of Marriage and the Family, 60, 388-403.

Larzelere, R. E., Schneider, W. N., Larson, D. B., & Pike, P. L. (1996). The effects of discipline responses in delaying toddler misbehavior recurrences. Child and Family Therapy, 18, 35-37.

Muller, R. T., Hunter, J. E., & Stollak, G. (1995). The intergenerational transmission of corporal punishment: A comparison of social learning and temperament models. Child Abuse & Neglect, 19(11), 1323-1335.

Roberts, M. W., & Powers, S. W. (1990). Adjusting chair timeout enforcement procedures for oppositional children. Behavior Therapy, 21, 257-271.

Simons, R. L., Lin, K., & Gordon, L. C. (1998). Socialization in the family of origin and male dating violence: A prospective study. Journal of Marriage and the Family, 60, 467-478.

Straus, M. A. (Ed.). (1994). Beating the devil out of them: Corporal punishment in American families and its effect on children. Boston: Lexington.

Straus, M. A., & Donnelly, D. A. (1994). The fusion of sex and violence. In M. A. Straus (Ed.), Beating the devil out of them: Corporal punishment in American families (pp. 121-136). Boston: Lexington.

Turner, H. A., & Finkelhor, D. (1996). Corporal punishment as a stressor among youth. Journal of Marriage and the Family, 58, 155-166.

[Bouncy Ball]

9. Good article and I wanted to highlight one thing:

"If anything, it may be even more distressing for a child to feel loved and supported by the very people who perpetrate violence against him or her. The child could learn to confuse love with violence, or to believe that it is okay to use force in the context of close, loving relationships."

I agree. This is a VERY creepy disconnect.

[nonconformist]

18. I raise my children by experience and instinct, not by studies

Any parent knows there is no text book for raising kids and there are few if any black and white issues. You have to adjust and change to conform to your child's individual needs at the time.

My children are 9 and 7. They're absofuckinglutely wonderful kids in every way. Straight A's in academics and in conduct. Respectful and caring, reasonable and loving. Ask them if they've ever felt abused or scared of their parents and they'd look at you like you were insane.

It's not the black and white issue everyone would make it out to be.

Where are the studies on the lack of discipline correlating with increased school violence?

I haven't spanked my kids in a very long time and I seriously doubt I ever will again. There are different degrees of everything, cripes.

[SidDithers]

66. Excellent, excellent article...Thanks for posting...nt

Sid

[Lindacooks]

71. Excellent, excellent, EXCELLENT post!!

I wish you'd post it as its own thread so I could nominate it for the Greatest.

[cynatnite]

79. That article is full of BS

I don't know anyone who could read that with a straight face. Those myths are probably something someone pulled out of their butt. It sounds like something ole limpballs would fester out of his mouth.

Maybe some RW nutjob might by think those myths have a ring of truth to them.

[ultraist]

6. If you are offended by the discussions on parenting skills...

use the ignore feature. No one is telling you how to raise your children, why the defensive angry OP?

People are discussing what techniques are the most humane and the most effective and using ANY FORM of violence against children is NOT on that list.

Note: Spanking IS a form of violence

[H2O Man]

17. I agree 100%.

None of us are perfect parents. That just doesn't happen in real life.

[ultraist]

25. LOL! Nope! We're not.

But we strive to improve our parenting skills through educating ourselves and figuring out what works best for our children.

Your comment regarding parents who hit their children having been hit themeselves is right on the mark!

[Bouncy Ball]

7. Only when they did something that was potentially dangerous to

them or others?

Then why are you bitching?

That doesn't sound inappropriate. Many people use the instant attention-grabbing behavior of a slap on the back of the hand when a two year old reaches for something dangerous or a swat when they start to run out into the street.

What's the deal?

I think you are being a bit sensitive about this. I've done the same thing with my daughter as you describe, but I don't think hitting in general (besides the purpose you describe) is a good idea.

There's too much potential for abuse, it's not a very effective teaching tool anyway (long term), and there are just too many other, effective ways of teaching kids how to behave than hitting to bother with it!

Relax. No one's talking about you. But I do think we humans do ourselves a disservice when we call it "spanking" because somehow people think that's not hitting. It's simply a very specific form of hitting. But it's hitting.

[nonconformist]

11. What brought this on?

Maybe the upteen threads about spanking in GD today. Maybe some of the replies to THIS VERY THREAD that state that "spanking is child abuse", end 'o story. That's what brought it on.

[Bouncy Ball]

30. I tend to wonder why, when I have said

that swatting a small child's hand or behind when they are in danger, as a way of getting their attention immediately, is not child abuse (in my opinion), do you continue to rail on?

Maybe re-read my post. Breathe. You doth protest too much.

[nonconformist]

39. You're right, I was angry when I wrote my original post.

I guess it's just extremely offensive to be labeled as a child abuser. If I broadly labeled anyone with an overweight child an abuser for allowing them to become that way, the flames would fly as I'm sure you can imagine.

You're absolutely right though, I was angry. I should know better than to get into a hot-button issue on DU when I'm feeling offended, it's never a good thing. I just wanted to maybe show that you can't paint all with such a broad brush, that nobody is perfect and that doesn't make them abusive. Ah well. I'm calm now, kinda. :)

[Bouncy Ball]

55. I don't understand. Who called you a child abuser and where?

Seriously if someone actually called YOU a child abuser, you should hit alert.

But if they were simply stating that their opinion is that spanking is child abuse, that's not alertable and they were merely stating their opinion. As you are here.

[nonconformist]

59. Have you read this thread?

I've been told I should be arrested!

[Bouncy Ball]

61. Melodramatic much?

Cuban_Liberal simply stated that if people did what they do to kids to ADULTS, they'd be arrested, and that's true.

If I hit my husband and he wanted to call the police and report it, I'd be in trouble. And it would depend on the officer's judgement, but I could very well be arrested. I can't decide to hit another adult.

However, if I did that to my child, it would NOT be considered battery.

What he said is correct. Nowhere did he EVER say you should be arrested and nowhere did he ever call you a child abuser.

You are taking offense where there is none. I have spanked my own daughter, years ago. I am fully aware of the fact that if I whacked an adult on the ass hard enough to make them cry (though I'm not sure an adult would cry, but rather yell a lot!), I WOULD be arrested if they called the police.

All he was doing was stating facts.

[cynatnite]

80. Good point!

I do think for any parent who spanks or swats, acknowledging that it is hitting can really made a difference if they choose to use that form of discipline.

[philosophie_en_rose]

8. It's a semantic issue.

When people hear "spanking," they think beating or Dickensian spankings with canes. I disagree that spanking is necessary. However, it is not necessarily abuse.

In Washington, the only physical punishment of children that is legal is open-handed spanking by parents or teachers that is on the rear and that doesn't leave marks and does not leave lasting physical pain.

[redqueen]

13. The Canadian study I and others have cited

only studied those who were 'spanked' not beaten. Not abused. Only spanked.

[philosophie_en_rose]

16. I don't think spanking is good, by any means.

It's more of a vent of frustration for parents than a lesson for children. However, I do recognize that the law allows parents to use mild physical punishment.

I would say that any physical abuse that leaves lasting effect is abusive and should not be allowed. I suspect that "spanking" in the study is abusive.

I think the distinction is that there are sometimes physical reactions that are warranted. (i.e. if my child runs in the street and is about to be hit by a car - I should pull him back as fast as I can - communication be damned at that point). However, for the most part, behaving violently towards a child is unnecessary and barbaric.

[nonconformist]

20. I'm curious about that actually

Did it take socio-economic conditions into consideration? I'm always skeptical of any study on things of this nature that don't, like increased crime among minorities and the like. Plus, often times minority cultures are more likely to raise their children in an old-fashioned way and that includes spanking (I was raised in a Hispanic family so it was commonplace).

[nonconformist]

22. I don't think it's necessary.

Never said that. I respect someone's choice not to. I don't respect someone telling me how I should raise my kids.

[Bouncy Ball]

38. I think it's rather the opposite.

When people hear spanking, most think "eh, harmless." And they don't think hitting is the same thing as spanking. But spanking is just a very specialized form of hitting (certain place and done a certain way). It's still hitting. I think spanking is a rather whitewashed euphamism. After all, there are spankings which are a few light swats on a clothed behind and there are spankings that result in totally bruised buttocks and worse.

[Pithlet]

12. Our children are not our property

to do with as we see fit. We, as a society, have a right to demand that we don't abuse our own.

Now, there is some debate as to whether or not spanking is abuse. For me, anything other than an open hand against a clothed bottom is abuse. I do believe that society has every right to tell you and me that we can't cross that line. "Don't tell me how to raise my kids" doesn't cut it.

[mpanno]

14. There IS a difference between spanking and BEATING

I was spanked as a kid when I deserved it and never thought I was being "abused". A BEATING is just that, a beating. That's when you get involved and do something to stop it.

[_TJ_]

15. I think spanking is plain wrong

I have every right to complain when I see someone doing something I
think is wrong.

You don't own your children - they are not your property. If you
do something to them I think is immoral I will speak my mind.

Wifebeaters used to use the same argument to defend that little
practice too you know!

[Cuban_Liberal]

19. If you did to an adult what you do to a child, you'd be arrested.

Hitting is a battery, no mater how one defends it.

[nonconformist]

21. HAHAHA.

Yeah, take my kids away from me then. I'm a horrible fucking person that MUST BE STOPPED.

I patted a friend on the back the other day. Haul my ass away!

[sonicx]

24. Your passive aggressive response doesn't negate the fact that...

spanking is hitting.

[nonconformist]

29. I'm not going to argue about it

That's the point of the original post. I don't have to justify it to anyone.

Think what you want, but most people don't correlate a soft painless swat on the tush with abuse. Some do, and I think that's a pretty narrow-minded, self-righteous view. To each their own, but I must say it's the kind of black and white ridiculousness we see from the right reformed in a left argument. Let's use some common sense here.

When I was a kid, I had an aunt that would tickle us pretty aggressively and it kind of hurt. She didn't mean it to of course, but it did. That hurt more than any "spanking" I've ever given my children. I suppose I should have turned her in and had her arrested.

[sonicx]

34. So your justification is "it's just a soft pat"

Can I do that to my wife?

[nonconformist]

41. Is she 3?

Again, no justification.

[sonicx]

45. So your answer is I can physically discipline my kid, but not my wife...

just checking.

[nonconformist]

47. I don't care what you do

That's the whole point. You should live your life how you see fit.

[sonicx]

49. Really, can I kill someone?

[nonconformist]

52. Common sense please. nt

[sonicx]

56. You said "You should live your life how you see fit."

in repsonse to me asking if I can physically discipline my wife. That's not common sense.

[Nederland]

83. By definition

Common sense must be "common". As evidence by the disagreement here, there is no "common" sense on the matter.

[Bouncy Ball]

40. Hang on a second, I have a question about something you said.

You said "a soft painless swat on the tush."

If it's soft and painless, explain the purpose to me. Even in the case of a child about to run out into traffic, or a child about to juice their finger in an electrical socket, if you give them a PAINLESS swat, they aren't going to pay much attention to it, thus you have defeated the purpose.

"Here, son, you behaved badly. Let me give you a soft, painless swat so you'll think about it next time."

:rofl:

Come on. Stop white washing. I spanked my daughter three times when she was five years old. And it wasn't painless. I didn't leave a mark, I didn't bruise her, I didn't use an object, she had a clothed behind, but it did hurt. She cried. Without it hurting, what is the point of spanking?

You are trying to argue this both ways and it's putting you in a corner.

[nonconformist]

46. The shock of it was enough

It didn't have to be painful, it was pretty shocking to them that it happened at all and effective in that way. But to be completely fair, it's possible there may have been some mild pain involved, about on target with a toddler losing it's balance and plopping to the floor on it's tush. Some toddlers will cry when that happens, but it's not really because they're hurt, it's because it surprised or startled them.

Not painting myself into a corner, I don't broadly judge people for things they do.

[Bouncy Ball]

50. Who is judging?

Can we not discuss a topic without someone jumping up and screaming to stop calling her a child abuser?

Yeah, it's fair to say there was some pain involved (no matter how mild), otherwise it's completely uneffective.

[Cuban_Liberal]

27. Laugh all you want.

What I said is objectively true, your passive-agressive response nonwithstanding.

[Bouncy Ball]

36. You're really freaking me out.

Everyone is being rather calm about this topic and you are screaming and yelling, being bitter, sarcastic and rude.

Would you act this way in person? Why are you so defensive?

[nonconformist]

51. Um, I'm not seeing that so much.

I was sarcastic to someone who labeled me an abuser who should be arrested. I think that's fair.

Don't think I'm not noticing how you're trying to turn this into me being out of control, btw.

[Bouncy Ball]

54. Don't think I'm not noticing how you aren't making sense.

Who said you should be arrested? Link me to it, I'm serious. Who said it and where???

You are being melodramatic and you're exaggerating.

[sonicx]

57. Who said you should be arrested? strawman maybe?

[nonconformist]

63. Agreed. I jumped to conclusions.

I'm having a shitty day in general and being overly defensive. You're right, I connected points A and B and got C.

It's one of my faults, actually. I'm rabidly defensive when I feel (correctly or assumed) that broad judgments are made about anyone. It's gotten me into trouble before, and I'm sure it will again.

Anyway, point taken. Backing slowly away now.

[Unions]

65. Hm probably some kind of repressed guilt

for something. Some post must have hit a nerve or something.

[ultraist]

28. Excellent point Cuban_Liberal!

Why don't we afford our children the same basic rights and respect that we do our adults?

[Cuban_Liberal]

31. I've often wondered that very thing.

Our society has never placed the value on children and their rights that it ought.

[nonconformist]

32. In theory I agree

But then doesn't that mean that when a child disrupts and acts up in class the police should be called and said 5 yr old child handcuffed? Of course not. But if an adult started flipping out and yanking shit off a wall in a public building, they'd be arrested.

Let's use some common sense here.

[sonicx]

37. If a child disrupts, you can call the parents

can't really do that with an adult.

[ultraist]

53. An out of control adult poses much more of a threat than a 5 yo CHILD

Your comparison has NOTHING to do with the idea that hitting another human being (big or small), unless it's in self defense, is unethical and uncivilized.

[radwriter0555]

35. That's right. If you put your hand on ANY OTHER HUMAN BEING, unless

you're acting in self defense, you are committing a crime.

So why is it legal to lay a violent hand on the most vulnerable of all?

[Cuban_Liberal]

42. I don't know.

I think it should be a crime to hit anyone, except in self-defense.

[_TJ_]

44. violence breeds violence

You hit your kids - you risk creating a violent adult. You treat
the kid with respect - you will teach them to respect others.

[Cuban_Liberal]

48. Oh, I know.

I was a deputy for almost 3 years, and I've seen the proof.

[lolamio]

23. I don't tell people how to raise their children

However, if I have access to information or if I have an opinion that I think may cause people to think differently about about an issue - in this case, discipline - then I am not afraid to provide it. I don't look it as judging or telling people what to do; I look at it as an opportunity to share and exchange ideas.

Peace. :)

[nonconformist]

26. Fair enough.

That was a reasonable and thoughtful reply and I agree. :)

[Bouncy Ball]

43. We're just discussing this issue and to be honest

I was pretty impressed that the few threads I've read on this topic today have not devolved into flame wars.

If you really only swatted your kids a few times for potentially dangerous behavior when they were small, I really don't see why you are so defensive and angry about this. I did the same thing, but I am not assuming people are telling me how to raise my kids.

:shrug: Sounds like you and I are doing and have done the same things. (My daughter is 10.) So how exactly are you on the opposite side of this from me? Unless you are trying to say you DO advocate hitting kids beyond just "no no! That's dangerous!"

????

[nonconformist]

58. Absolutely not, I think we agree completely

I get upset when I see any broad judgments being made about ANYONE in any situation however. That's just me, I make no bones about it. I've went to bat for many different viewpoints here on DU in that vain, whether I was actually in that person's shoes or not.

There have been judgments when people are widely labeling anyone who has ever spanked as a child abuser. I take exception to that. I don't "advocate" spanking, to be frank. I think it's overused in many cases and can turn into a quite abusive situation if someone is out of control. I just don't think it's fair to say that someone is abusive if they've ever done it.

[sonicx]

60. I see people explaining why spanking is wrong

I don't see people naming calling (abusive, etc).

[Bouncy Ball]

62. Ah, gotcha. YOU are feeling like you are being labled an abuser

because you spanked your kids a few times when they were young.

Well, I spanked my kid a few times when she was younger. I know I'm not an abusive parent. I decided spanking was ineffective and harmful and didn't lead to anything good and decided to stop. That certainly doesn't make for a very abusive parent, so I see nowhere that I should take offense.

There's no one to defend here. So some people think ANY spanking is abusive? Ok. They can hold that opinion. Personally I think the line is too fine and it shouldn't be done at all because it's way too easy to cross over into some really bad territory.

[Catherine Vincent]

64. Spank me, baby!

[Carni]

70. You are truly a joy

I have read this whole string and thought WTF?

THanks for the humor break!

[Catherine Vincent]

81. That's what I was trying to do here.

You're welcome!:hi:

[lonestarnot]

69. Yeah! and don't tell me shit about ANY FUCKING THING IN MY personal

life...It's MINE! I don't hurt anybody physically and if they're hurt with my powerful words at times, well then they chose to be so fuck 'em!

[demgurl]

75. First off, I agree with you OP.

The way I feel about this issue is very strong. I have spanked my kids and would again. I try not to and go to great lengths to make this a very last resort.

I kind of feel about spanking, the way I do about abortion. A lot of people feel it is wrong but until they change the law to make both of them illegal, anyone can continue to discipline as they see fit. I hat people getting in my face about abortion since it does not matter if think it is wrong, I can not be arrested for having had one.

I run with this logic and say it is not illegal and therefore not abusive in the eyes of the law. And I do not like people making spanking (when no marks are left) a big issue because, like reporting a false rape, it takes away from the real problems.

My nephews have been honestly abused for years. (I have called social services more times than I can count and even had witnesses). Some of these abuses have included stripping off both boys to their underwear and having them wrestle. They would be awarded extra points if they got hold of the other ones testicles and squeezed hard enough to make the other cry!

Another abuse consisted of locking one of the boys in a pig cage full of feces and rolling him down the hill!

Or how about when one of the boys was punished by running laps around the yard with the boyfriend on his heals? I loved that one with the young child falling and there were holes in his pants and cuts on his knees.

One of the incidents, that really impressed me, was when my nephew showed up at a family gathering with a black eye. Oddly enough he could not remember what had happened and neither could his Mom! And no one even blinked an eye when someone else in the family told this boy what to do or he would end up with another black eye to match the first one!

Comparing spanking to abuse that is actually against the law diminishes the real abuse that is going on.

And for the record, I have been accused of abuse on two different occasions. The first time was when my mother-in-law thought that since she had seen the baby two times since he was born and both times he was sleeping, that I must be taking drugs and passing them onto my son. She went to the doctor to report this without even talking to us first. If I was doing this, it is considered abuse in the eyes of the law and my child could have been taken away.

The second time we were accused of abuse was when our nephews were throwing acorns at passing cars. We caught them and explained how dangerous this was. We made them pick up acorns, in our yard, as a form of punishment. My mother-in-law confronted us with this information and said it was child abuse period! That wonderful exchange took place at a Thanksgiving dinner and I left in tears. I feel child abuse is one of the worst things you could ever accuse someone of.

My children come first with me. My Mom bought me a bottle of champagne when my first son was born. I didn't even drink that for over a year because of breastfeeding.

When my second child was born he came by way of cesarean. I have always been determined to breastfeed and was aghast when I went down to the NICU and saw they were trying to give him formula! They said they could not have me breastfeed because of the drugs in my system. I went cold turkey, against doctors orders, so that I could breastfeed. All the nurses saw me crying and in pain because of the cesarean and they said there was no need for me to be in that much pain. I said I had to to get proper milk for my baby. I was in more pain than I ever had been before and it was a relief when I had expressed enough clean milk to go back on pain killers. But I would go to the end of the earth for my kids. I will go through hell and high water. What I do with my kids is not abuse! I have maybe spanked them five times total in their whole lives and I am not an abuser.

All of that being said, what anyone else thinks is not relevant to me since it is not against the law.

[MediumBrownDog]

76. Amen.

This entire topic, and the self-righteousness that goes with it, makes me tired. My parents spanked me if I was endangering myself or others. Period. I am the most well adjusted person I know. I have no "issues." Don't try to assign them to me.

[TheOriginalAmerican]

77. I agree.

We need to stay out of family business. If a child is really getting hurt, that's one thing. Normal spanking is not abuse. Concentrate on the attitude you take when you discipline your kid, not what method.

[seabeyond]

82. this is one of the perfect examples of why people run from

the democratic party. right here. this is an excellent example

doesnt matter how many people say they were spanked as kids, dont hate parents, nor fear parents. knew parent loved them, knew it was a discipline

NO NO NO you are wrong wrong i tell you. you, who have experienced, you know not what you talk. your parents are useless abusers. no room for consideration, no room for allowing you to make the decisions with children, simply you are abusers

i shake my head

i raise my kids as i see fit. really doesnt matter a whole hill of beans what a single person says here. i happen to fit in with yawl on this one. respectfully i allow the same with your parenting. i trust in your abilities. what you may not do perfectly, i am sure you go above and beyond somewhere else. who am i to judge. and i wont

you can bet, pretty much all parents feel this way, so basically, you are just turning people off in disgust

[tallahasseedem]

84. I agree...

I always thought that I would parent a certain way before I had kids. After I had two, I quickly learned that its impossible. Each child is different and each requires a certain discipline style.

[Dogmudgeon]

85. What we have here is a Failure to Communicate ...

... and the anti-spankers really aren't doing anything to reduce spanking or to enlighten the public about its alternatives. By reacting with outrage, you're gaining nobody's trust.

And the anti-spankers already know that pro-spankers are defensive and sensitive about it, anyway. What's the purpose of antagonizing them? I've seen where some people will brag that they spank their children because they're taking a "Politically Incorrect" stand.

If anti-spankers really want to discourage the practice, they have to find better ways to "get through" to the pro-spankers. Blame and hyperbole isn't going to help anything. Very few young butts are going to be spared by accusations and moralizing.

The ideal situation would be for the pro- and anti-spanking factions to discuss what parents can do to make their disciplinary efforts more effective and less painful. The antis might want to start by withholding judgement long enough to actually listen to what the pros are saying. The two-sided ranting is going nowhere.

--p!

[porkrind]

86. No deal. Kids need protection against abusive parents.

You can't rationalize it to me.