More Reasons Not to Spank

[redqueen]

I posted this on another thread, which abruptly sank. I thought this information merited attention. Please excuse the extra thread if you saw this information already.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/spankin2.htm

"Drs. T. Berry Brazelton, Penelope Leach, and Benjamin Spock, probably the most influential child psychologists and pediatricians, all recommend against spanking. So does the American Psychological Association and the National Association of Social Workers. The American Academy of Pediatrics seems to be having difficulty reaching a consensus. However, 90% of their membership recommend either that spanking never be used, or that it be used on only very rare occasions.

"Focus on the Family, a Fundamentalist Christian group centered in Colorado surveyed visitors to their web site during late 2003-SEP. Those taking the survey are believed to be overwhelmingly Fundamentalist or other Evangelical Christian. As such, most probably believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, and follow the key verses in the book of Proverbs which advocate corporal punishment of children. They found that: 91% of those who have children spank them. 9% do not."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/spankin5.htm

"1995: Corporal punishment and adult addiction and psychiatric problems:

Psychiatric and addiction: Dr. Harriet McMillan of McMaster University in Hamilton, ON Canada led a six-person team which studied the possible association between childhood spanking and subsequent behavior problems in adulthood. 3 They based their study on data collected as part of a 1990 population health survey by the Ontario Ministry of Health of 10,000 adults in the province. Five thousand of the subjects had been asked questions about spanking during childhood. Unlike many previous studies, the researchers deleted from the sample group anyone who recalled being physically or sexually abused. This left adults who had only been spanked and/or slapped during childhood. Incidences of adult disorders were:Adult disorder

...................................Never spanked / Rarely spanked / Sometimes/often spanked
Anxiety...............................16.3%...........18.8%.................21.3%
Major depression...................4.6%............4.8%..................6.9%
Alcohol abuse or addiction.......5.8%...........10.2%.................13.2%
More than one disorder *.........7.5%...........12.6%.................16.7%

* More than one disorder included illicit drug abuse, addictions & antisocial behavior.

Their results were published in the Canadian Medical Journal for 1995-OCT. 4 They reported that "there appears to be a linear association between the frequency of slapping and spanking during childhood and a lifetime prevalence of anxiety disorder, alcohol abuse or dependence and externalizing problems."

[CO Liberal]

1. The Strongest Reason Not To Spank

FoKKKus On The Family advocates spanking.

[Shallah Kali]

2. we we see how they turned out

{shudder}

[Jacobin]

30. The main reason not to spank: It doesn't work

Speaking as the father of four boys, of ALL different personalities.

It teaches that violence is a solution to a dispute.

It teaches that if you are bigger and more powerful than someone and they do something you don't like, you get to hit them (bully, anyone?)

There are tons of alternative ways to discipline children that WORK.

[Garage Queen]

111. The only thing spanking taught me was to LIE ...

Lie to avoid being spanked.

Lie to avoid the pain.

Lie to avoid the humiliation.

Lie lie lie lie lie.....

It's a habit I didn't break until my mid-30's when, one day I decided to just tell my boss the truth. I had messed up on something, I'm sorry, and I'm working on fixing it. And he said...."ok" and went back to what he was doing.

OMG! what a revelation! You could tell the truth about making an honest mistake and *not* be berated or beaten for it? Wow....

[Rockholm]

3. What are we spanking?

[Rufus T. Firefly]

4. I got my hopes up for nothing.

Talking about kids. No adult pics or anything. :sigh:

[Mugweed]

5. I still think

kids are disrespectful to others today because they know we can't slap them silly without being arrested. I remember when I was a kid, it was just as OK for your parents' friends to slap the crap out of you as it was for your parents. That sure kept me from mouthing off to others. I think we need to go back to that.

A lot of my friends blame the hippie peace culture of the 60's for the attitudes of the following generations. Put down the bong and pick up a wooden spoon or yardstick. I remember just the sound of the belt snapping was enough for me.

[emanymton]

6. Oh Heck, Use Pepper Spray. That'll Teach The Buggars Not To

mouth off. Beat'em up; worked for me and see how I turned out.

[gollygee]

7. Yeah I'd rather have a child afraid of being hit

than a child who mouths off. :sarcasm:

[phylny]

10. I have three respectful children, and oh my...

...didn't spank them. I always used principles of behavior modification, and it worked/works like a charm. No surprise there.

Sorry your parents and their friends slapped the crap out of you, and I hope it somehow made you into a kind, loving, gentle, caring person.

[redqueen]

11. I've never spanked my kids and they neve rmouth off.

There are other ways to teach kids discipline and good manners than physical violence.

[gollygee]

13. What are you saying?

You can teach them respect by showing them respect? Amazing!!! This should be in LBN! :D

[Bouncy Ball]

18. I disagree.

Children aren't mindless creatures who learn only through the inflicting of pain on nerve endings.

My 10 year old daughter is very well-behaved. People comment on it all the time. We don't hit or slap her to get her that way. We TEACH her through modeling the behavior we want her to engage in, by talking to her directly about appropriate behavior, by positive reinforcement and by punishment by grounding, if necessary (last resort, but she hates it). And by the way, most of a child's behavior is determined in the very early years, when consistent boundaries need to be set and enforced (and without hitting). If you do THAT correctly, the rest (ask me about adolescence in a few years, but I'm not too worried) is easier.

There's simply no need to hit. Why would I choose to do that when I can teach her without smacking this child I love so much?

[Horse with no Name]

27. Well ya know what?

My kids are really great. I didn't spank.
My granddaughter and daughter live with me while my daughter goes to college...so I am in effect raising her.
You know what? She misbehaves. 2-year olds do that.
Does she understand that if I knock the crap out of her that the reason is because she was misbehaving? No, she doesn't. So why do it?
I think it is just an outlet for the aggressor and nothing else.
It teaches nothing except violence.
Sooo...she colors on the walls?
I take away her crayons for a few days. Then I paint the wall,lol.
I try to explain to her that she can't do that.
She leaves her toys out and refuses to pick them up?
So I make a game out of it and get her to help me. IF she doesn't do it--so what?
It's not an issue to battle over.
That's just it. It is the ticket to raising well adjusted children.
Parents freak out over stupid things like keeping their rooms clean.
What harm does a dirty room do? Shut the door if it bothers you.
At some point, one of their friends will tell them that they are a pig and they will adjust their behavior accordingly.
I never wanted to put minor offenses on the same level as serious offenses. If you fight them on every issue, they learn nothing but conflict. It doesn't mean you can't say--Geez I wish you would clean your room--I'm missing half of my dishes or something like that, but to spank a child or take away priveleges for something that petty serves only the aggressor, not the child.

[redqueen]

29. So many fantastic posts on this subject.

Thanks much for weighing in.

:hi:

[Jacobin]

36. Kudos to you. I wish everyone had had such a good parent

I mean that.

Its sad that your style of raising children is the exception and not the rule

:hug:

[Bouncy Ball]

22. By the way, the only reason I behaved around my parents

was out of fear of physical harm.

How close do you think I was to them? Guess.

Now guess how close I am to them today?

Answers: not at all and not at all.

I don't want my child to behave because she FEARS me. That's so temporary anyway. I might have feared my parents, but they didn't TEACH me much, so I just acted out when they weren't around.

[mzmolly]

67. So what do you do when your partner "mouths off" to you today?

:eyes:

[seabeyond]

108. i guess give him a time out since we treat him like a child

take a toy away, ground him. this one is getting old. we use none of the disciplining with a child onto an adult

[mzmolly]

114. Adults DO have consequences for their actions ...

... "time out/grounding = jail, putting up a toy = a fine etc.

Further we don't defend hitting adults and call it teaching. At least not in developed countries.

Do you recall the Rodney King beating? Were he an unruly child being hit by one person with a belt, would it have been ok?

Indeed this is getting "old."

[Lindacooks]

92. Oh yes, by all means, let's go back to the 'good old days'

BULLSHIT. There's a huge gap in your reasoning - first of all, a bong has nothing to do with this discussion. And if you hit a child with a wooden spoon or a yardstick, and that child ever told anybody about it, or it was witnessed, you would be visited by Child Protective Services and a file would be opened on you.

And how exactly did a 'peace culture' breed violence and disrespect in the following generations? That's just ridiculous.

[frankly_fedup2]

99. I'm with you Mugweed. All I know is when I went to school in the 70's

no one came in with guns shooting people. Back then, the teachers could spank in the presence of another teacher as a witness. When corporal punishment was taken out of the schools, those kids started walking all over the teachers.

I got spanked, my husband got spanked, everyone in my age group that I know got "whippings" as we say when we did not do as we were told. I learned quickly what was allowed and what wasn't. I would push my parents, my father never touched me, my mother was the only one that used spanking. In my teen years I used a lot of drugs too.

However, I have to be 100% honest here. I am now on disability. I have anxiety disorder, chronic depression (all this since the age of 19), Panic Disorder, Sjogrens Syndrome, and chronic pain.

It has never entered my mind that my spankings have caused my problems. My doctors say "Reality" is my problem. They said I would be better off if I were psychotic. How sick is that.

Did those that did this testing include the question regarding drug abuse in their teen years? That could play an important factor as well. It is believed that could be part of my problems as well now.

Also, I'm the only one in the group of friends and family my age that I know have all these problems and who were spanked. Also, others I partied with seem to be fine today.

If you really stop and think about it, just how many people in their 40's are not on some kind of antidepressant?

[DARE to HOPE]

115. No, kids are disrespectful to others because they haven't been TAUGHT...

...respect.

The word "discipline" means area of learning, or, to teach. As in the word "disciples."

I saw too many '60's kids that were undisciplined themselves airly wave their children to their own devices. This includes my step children's mother. It makes the kids CRAZY and DEPRESSED, and delays their maturity to the age of at least forty.

On the other hand, I know many Lutheran clergy families (my cohort) where children are raised with attention, intelligence and respect. NONE of these kids ever acts out, there is no need to attract attention that way. They learn to make decisions for themselves at early ages, they follow areas of interest and responsibility with encouragement. They grow up faithful and responsible citizens, and happy as well.

Spanking, hitting, slapping, instead of talking, creates rebellion, and hurts the child on the inside, in the area of trust, which is very, very hard to fix.

I and my siblings were raised in fear by my father, though he hit us only rarely. Being raised on egg shells does NOT promote intimacy, and both father and kids lose out, believe me.

[Misunderestimator]

116. Yeah... I remember the sound of the belt snapping too...

One of the many, many reasons I am completely against it.

You think it's OK for a parents' FRIENDS to "slap the crap out of" their kids? :wtf:

[bleedingheart]

8. I take away privileges and that works

I have only spanked when my child did something that was life threatening..like running towards the road...and not a really bad spank...more the maternal concern for the welfare spanking...running towards the road became associated with a sharp smack to the bottom.

The older they grow the more I find that cutting out TV, no friends over, or sitting in their room is good enough.

When my kids are really being bad I take away a favorite toy along with the other stuff.

I also remove my kids from situations. I do not bargain or barter for good behavior. If my kids act up in the mall/restaurant/movie you will not see me begging them to be good or even threatening them. I leave. That normally results in them begging me to not leave but I still leave whether it inconveniences me or not.

[redqueen]

12. All good methods...

kudos to you for finding non-violent ways to encourage good behavior in your children. :)

[_TJ_]

9. Redqueen you are my hero!

I'm so glad you are so liberal on this issue :D

I was hit as a kid and I have a depressive illness. But I'm pretty
sure in my case it's actually a coincidence :7


:hug:

[redqueen]

14. I'm really glad you brought this up.

:pals:

Thanks. :hi:

[sendero]

15. It probably never occurred to these folks...

... that people with mental illnesses probably behaved out of control more often when they were children and precipitated their spankings.

These kinds of studies aren't worth the paper they are printed on. There is no way to infer anything from them at all, because there are hundreds of variables that cannot be controlled for.

Personally, I've raised three sons and probably had to resort to spanking (a single swat on the ass) about 3-4 times.

My kids don't seem the worse for wear because of it. When I was young, I remember getting a good belting a couple of times. It hurt, but on the list of childhood traumas I endured it doesn't even make the top 10.

I don't have any reason not to respect folks like Spock and Brazelton, who I've read and found helpful on childhood issues. And spanking a child while angry is rarely a good plan. But overall, this idea that spanking as a soul-damaging experience holds no sway with me.

[redqueen]

16. Interesting.

So spanking the mentally / emotionally disturbed is OK, too, then?

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

Also, I don't need studies to prove to me that you can discipline children without resorting to violence.

[sendero]

31. I knew someone..

.... would try to be a smart ass. Everyone is mentally ill. It is a continuum. Some are only 1% and some 40% or more. Kids that are higher misbehave more, as do adults. Kids who are frequently out of control are more likely to draw discipline, which could come in the form of spanking.

If you've ever had a kid that was jumping and screaming and throwing things and having a tantrum that was just going on and on, some of us have found that a slap on the butt will snap a kid out of it.

The few times I've had to do it, it has worked. My recollection is that the kid was generally "surprised" out of his tantrum.

Tell you what, my kids are turning out pretty damn good if I say so myself, knock on wood. So you raise yours as you see fit and I'll do that same. And I'll also feel free to call bullshit on studies that I, and frankly lots of people, think are about as scientific as a dart and a dartboard.

Thanks. :)

[redqueen]

32. I'm not being a smartass.

I'm being serious.

It's like the diabetic woman who was beaten by the police. If the child has a behavior problem, will spanking them to 'surprise' them out of the behavior really the most effective and humane method of addressing the problem, do you think?

[sendero]

37. The problem with dogmatic thinking..

... a form of mental illness itself, is that it doesn't allow for shades of gray. Every thing is black or white, and many "liberals" are just as guilty of it as fascists or fundamentalists are.

Spanking should never be done! Ever!

If someone is spanking their child every day, or every week or every month, that is probably not right. But never, no I ain't buying it and neither are most sensible people IMHO.

[_TJ_]

33. What's your response to this post?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3555494&mesg_id=3556098&page=

[sendero]

39. I responded...

... feel free to take a look :)

[quaker bill]

57. But which came first?

The spankings or the aberrant behavior? If not in your case, how about the general case? Surely you have seen a misbehaving kid slapped in the checkout line? Did it seem to improve the situation?

To my mind, any situation that requires the assertion of the obvious, that I am larger and stronger than my kids (therefore can spank them if I choose to) is a situation where I have already lost. Following through with a spanking does nothing to improve it.

Having raised two very good children without ever resorting to corporal punishment of any kind convinces me that it is entirely unnecessary. Having observed the results of alternative approaches, I find the study totally credible.

[mzmolly]

71. Why is it ok to hit a small child and not an adult?

Or doesn't either damage "the soul?"

:shrug:

[sendero]

76. Probably the same reason...

.... it's ok to either be so thick you don't know the difference or to act like you are for the sake of an argument.

[mzmolly]

85. You didn't answer my question. The only difference is the child

is smaller and totally at your mercy. The adult can leave if he or she wants to.

And frankly, I do know the difference, I think hitting an adult is far more understandable. But, I choose not to do either.

[LiberallyInclined]

17. there are worse things than spanking-

verbal & psychological abuse can leave deeper scars than the back of a hand.

[_TJ_]

19. They are very, very bad too!

All these things are bad. We should try to get away from doing this
type of thing to kids.

[Bouncy Ball]

20. I don't think you can say one is worse than the other.

And I say that because physical punishment has emotional consequences. Of course it does. No human likes to be humiliated. And physical punishment has been shown to breed anger and resentment in the recipient. Those are emotional reactions. So I just don't see how you can say one is worse than the other. They are all pretty damn bad, if you ask me.

[LiberallyInclined]

35. it depends on how they are administered- and to what extent.

continuous verbal abuse is much worse than an occasional slap on the butt-
by the same token, regular beatings that leave marks or crack bones are obviously much worse than an occasional sarcastic remark.

however, all things being equal- it's the verbal abuse that lingers the longest....by my experience.

[mzmolly]

74. Bologna.

Abuse is abuse and it all lingers. Physical beatings can cause a fear for your very life, there is no comparison to a verbal slam. But, then again one needn't choose when raising a child. You can actually raise a child without abuse period.

[LiberallyInclined]

106. which were you subjected to as a child?

Physical beatings or verbal?
I had both, in spades, and it's the verbal and emotional abuse that has caused me the most problems BY FAR. when you're constantly berated, and continually reminded how worthless you are, it does things to your sense of self and self esteem. a spanking might sting for a bit- but the words echo in your memory for a lifetime.

[mzmolly]

112. I had both as well, and I would much rather have an unkind word.

Hitting isn't good for the self esteem either.

I am sorry for the harsh words you were subjected to, I just don't think a child should have to choose between harsh treatments.

[LiberallyInclined]

117. and i'd rather have a pat on the fanny, than continual degradation.

"an unkind word" doesn't even begin to describe what i'm referring to.

[mzmolly]

119. A "pat on the fanny" is degrading ...

and often leads to deeper forms of abuse.

However, once again why should a child have to choose between being "hit" or being "verbally degraded?"

[LiberallyInclined]

122. it's becoming very apparent that you just don't get it...

btw- in what world are you from where the "choice" is up to the child, as far as what form of abuse the parent will be administering...?:crazy:

[mzmolly]

123. My point is that no child should endure "abuse."

And, you say *I* don't get it?!

:wtf:

[LiberallyInclined]

124. wow- what a novel position...

:eyes:


and, no...you don't.

[mzmolly]

125. I can see you still haven't got a point.

:hi:

[LiberallyInclined]

126. I made my point in my response to the original poster-

but then- you'd have to be able to read and comprehend to be aware of that...


your confusion is understandable.

[mzmolly]

127. My is that the best insult you can come up with?

How tired. :boring:

[Name removed]

128. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mzmolly]

129. I always take heart in the fact that I've won the debate when people

like you resort to personal attacks.

Anyway, happy spanking.

[LiberallyInclined]

131. happy spanking? moi? yet again you seem to be mistaken-

fortunately i don't have kids of my own(that i know of ;) ) - they tend to get in the way of good old-fashioned hedonism

but i can and do condone mild-moderate corporal punishment...as long as it's done liberally :evilgrin:

so in the end, i'll join you in saying: happy spanking everyone! :hi: (glad to see that you came around, btw...)

[mzmolly]

132. Do you condone corporal punishment for adults as well?

Or just small children?

It's always interesting to hear non-parents opinions on discipline. Once upon a time I believed in "spanking" too, then ... I grew up. ;)

So, perhaps there's hope for you and any of your future offspring ... yet.

[LiberallyInclined]

133. as far as spanking for adults is concerned-

the vast majority of women i've been with have enjoyed being on the recieving end just as much, if not more than i've enjoyed giving...after all, you don't have to be a parent to know how to dole out a little appropriate discipline;) ;)

although, from what i've heard, as you have apparently discovered-

"Once upon a time I believed in "spanking" too, then ... I grew up. ;)..."

a lot of women do lose some of their playfulness as they grow older... being male, i don't really have a lot of experience with menopause- my sex drive just keeps chugging along :bounce:

btw- future offspring aren't in the picture...unless i'm wearing a raincoat- i see to it that all my deliveries go in the back door...:evilgrin:

[XemaSab]

52. Agreed

I think spanking is generally wrong, but I know a lot of people who were spanked and suffered no ill effects and I know people who weren't spanked and grew up a complete mess.

This one time I was going down the street and there was a man and a woman walking down the other side of the street, and about 15 feet behind them was a 3 year old pushing himself along on his hands and knees on a skateboard. The kid fell over and the mom indicated some concern, but the "dad" was like "He's just being an asshole" and started completely berating this child, calling him a shithead and other completely inappropriate names. The kid started SCREAMING back "FUCK YOU! FUCK YOU! FUCK YOU! FUCK YOU! FUCK YOU! FUCK YOU! FUCK YOU!"

The kid's THREE.

I was SO horrified I went right to the police station.

An occasional swat on the ass is going to do MUCH less damage than that level of verbal abuse. There was probably physical abuse going on there too, but I've never seen anything that VIOLENT before.

Ideally, there should be neither physical abuse, verbal abuse, nor psychological abuse, but this was WAY over the top.

[mzmolly]

75. Most parents who would speak to a child in such a manner don't stop

at verbal abuse.

It's like saying hitting someone with a hand is better than a fist. It's all bullshit and shouldn't be defended.

[mzmolly]

72. Yeah, so it's best to use all three when disciplining.

:sarcasm:

[H2O Man]

21. I can say that

in decades of social work in upstate New York, I worked with almost every aspect of domestic (family) violence. That included a pretty large number of people, from little children to angry teens to abusive parents. And I am able to say that while not every child who is hit will grow up to hit others, all the adults who I encountered who hit others had been hit when they were children.

[redqueen]

23. Pretty much says it all, doesn't it?

Thanks very much for the work you do. :hug:

[Bouncy Ball]

25. Yep.

I was hit a lot as a child and teenager. In every possible way. Broken arm, blackened eye, beat with a belt on a near daily basis (from the age of two to seventeen). Electrical cords, wooden spoons, hairbrushes, a toaster to my scalp requiring stitches, scalding my hands.

Fortunately, I don't hit a soul. And I've never been a violent person. But I put myself through five years of counseling when I went to college. That was a life-saver. Truly.

[_TJ_]

28. Bless you bouncy

When I hear that someone can go through an experience like that - and
still come out of it in one piece - I sometimes think that maybe
there is a god after all!

:hug:

[Bouncy Ball]

59. Aw!

In recent years, I have decided based on a lot of research that I didn't turn into a violent person MAINLY because, from birth to about five years old, I had a very strong, secure attachment to my very loving, wonderful biological dad. I lost him due to divorce, remarriage and stepparent adoption.

But I read that if a child forms a secure attachment or bond with a loving adult (doesn't even have to be a parent) between birth and three years old, it can be a real lifesaver for them. They can handle adversity better later because that bond was there, even if it is broken later, as mine was.

My younger brother didn't get to have that attachment/bond with our dad, he was too young when the divorce happened. So ALL he ever knew was abuse and neglect. He is a violent man and a drug abuser today.

:shrug:

We're just two examples, but the research bears this out over and over.

[H2O Man]

63. Well said.

Your post points out how important of a role adults play in children's lives. And as you correctly say, it isn't restricted to parents.

[Bouncy Ball]

66. I learned about that when I fostered/attempted to adopt

two brothers who had been severely abused and neglected. The older one had never had any meaningful bond and the younger one, through luck of circumstance, had a somewhat meaningful bond with their dad.

The adoption placement disrupted because the older one threatened our daughter with death and even tried to carry it out one horrible night (she never knew and doesn't now). The state didn't want to separate the two boys and we had mixed feelings about that, too, so they both went back to foster care.

Sad all around. But I saw up close and personal what a difference an early life bond makes--the younger one was starting to attach to us.

[mzmolly]

91. One of the goals of Head Start is to encourage attachment.

My sister is a teacher and said many of the kids have never formed a healthy attachment before entering the program.

It's interesting because many may never know why they persevered - when a teacher long ago may have made all the difference.

[MissB]

81. Wow.

You weren't just hit - you were beaten. How on earth did you turn out to be such a lovely human? :hug:

[Bouncy Ball]

87. Blushing now.

Thank you. I think the bond I had very early with my dad, who was a loving man, helped. And five years of counseling. And luck?

[_TJ_]

26. Thank you! Thank you, for saying that

I just know you are 100% right! Hitting doesn't damage
everyone - but it damages many people. Why take that risk?

[H2O Man]

62. The people who

become non-violent, relatively well-adjusted adults do not do it because of that violence -- they do it in spite of it.

I grew up in an unfortunately violent atmosphere. The kindest thing I can say about my childhood is that I survived it, to paraphrase an old friend. I was lucky: I had a couple great teachers who recognized that the dirty, poor kid who had a chip on his shoulder had potential. They introduced me to books like Summerhill and the Autobiography of Malcolm X.

John Lennon once said that many pacifists used to be violent people. My violence found expression in the boxing ring. And eventually, another teacher told me that it was time to stop, and to think about why my life led me to where it did. I moved on to college. I'm glad I did.

[Horse with no Name]

107. and to think if you had been a student of some of the teachers

who justify handcuffing 5-yr olds, it's quite possible you wouldn't be who you are today. <<WARNING...Starting RANT from days of arguing this and similar topics>>
You know, and it's just me, if I were a teacher and knew that children were hungry, I would personally have some bananas or fruit and milk for those kids a snack in the am at my expense.
I wouldn't sit and gripe that the kids weren't being taken care of at home. If a child is hungry, it generally isn't because the parents are starving them, it is generally because the parents don't have money to feed them.
As a nurse and especially working with kids, alot of families have to come to the hospital unexpectedly without the financial resources to eat while they are there. They don't have the money.
I have many times gone out and bought a sack of groceries for those families, or broke the hospital rules (as we all did) and told the families to go get something out of the patients' refrigerator.
Also gave tips of how to get out of the paid parking lot without paying.
:evilgrin:
What are we, as a society, if we allow people to be hungry when there is something we can do about it?
What are we, as a society, if we allow children to be abused and let it go unnoticed?
I, for one, will not let either of these things happen and go unnoticed. If I am close enough I will help, If I am too far I will endure the hurt.
Everyone can do something--if they would just reach out.

[sendero]

38. That's a great anecdote..

... but I was spanked several times as a child and once in middle school. I've never hit anyone, and hell I'm fucking bipolar.

So much for anecdotal evidence.

[_TJ_]

41. You didn't read his post properly!

He didn't say that everyone who got hit turned out violent. The
point is that everyone who turned out violent got hit!

Furthermore, there's nothing wrong with anecdotal evedence if you
have enough of it. He is extrapolating from dozens - maybe
hundreds of cases. You are extrapolating from one case. That's
not the same thing at all.

[sendero]

44. Look....

... I'm just defending my position, which is that condemning all spanking is wrongheaded.

Do not expect me to be any more logical or fair in my rhetoric than I consider my opponents to be.

Of course anecdotal data has some value, but again, I don't live in a black and white world and I resist anyone trying to tell me that anything is that damn simple.

Also, there's been a conflation of spanking and plain old abuse (hitting) which is disingenuous. Of course hitting a kid is inexcusable. A smack on the ass is not hitting.

[sonicx]

46. Actually, smacking on the ass is hitting. perhaps 'light' hitting but...

still hitting. The issue is if that's abusive or not.

[sendero]

50. Well...

... I think I've made it clear where I stand on that issue. And frankly, I believe most parents agree with me. And to take it that one step further, I believe it is positions like this one that lose "liberals" a lot of credibility with rank and file Americans.

Because most folks simply don't buy into the idea that spanking is always bad. A lot of people, and I listen to a certain amount of pop-culture just to see what average people think, (not right-wing hate radio, average people) and I'm telling you most people don't buy into the idea of an occassional well-earned spanking being wrong.

Sure, there is a frequency at which it would, and frankly I've never had an occassion to spank a child older than 5-6 myself, but that doesn't mean that should be off limits. Parents have to decide this stuff for themselves, and they resent people who fall right into the do-gooder liberal stereotype telling them that there is something wrong with raising their kids as they see fit.

[sonicx]

54. A position being popular doesn't mean it's right

For the record, I haven't said all spanking is abusive.

I certainly don't see explaining why spanking is wrong as forcing parents to parent a certain way. Anymore than explaining why smoking is bad is forcing people not to smoking. Or explainng why obesity is bad is forcing people to lose weight.

I haven't seen anyone here say arrest parents who spank. Unless I missed it...

[sendero]

58. I agree with your subject line..

.... but here's the thing. When you say that spanking is always wrong you are essentially declaring that every parent who disagrees with you is a child abuser.

You might not have said it but many here have, by simply making a black and white declaration that is dogmatic and bogus.That is the kind of bullshit I'm not going to listen to without rebutting.

Liberals' propensity for doing exactly that is part of the reason that we are out of power. We did it on racism, and by god we won because nobody could really argue with the righteousness of our position.

We tried to do it with equal rights for women, but even though most people agree that women should have every right and opportunity that a man has, we started getting carried away. Many started basically saying that men and women are the same, that it is only nurture that makes them different. Well, that's bullshit and everyone who isn't living in their own self-constructed utopian dreamworld knows it, so it cost the idea of equal rights credibility and it cost liberals credibility.

I could go on and on but who has time or inclination to read this rambling crap anyway :)

[mzmolly]

86. You are using black and white language and calling others dogmatic.

"When you say that spanking is always wrong you are essentially declaring that every parent who disagrees with you is a child abuser."

I have never said that a parent who spanks their child on occassion is a child abuser - but I do feel that parent is wrong and that our society should not support/defend such an action.

When an adult hits another adult without being in a situation of self defense, most wouldn't hesitate to call it "assault." When a spouse hits another spouse he/she is being "abusive." So why are you reluctant to recognize that just because our society explains away striking young children, it doesn't make it ok?

Sweden and Israel have abandon spanking, - neither are afraid to call it like it is.

In fact, people of color were considered property in the US not that long ago, someone had to stand up and say it was wrong.

[_TJ_]

47. Of course spanking is hitting

you can't spank without *hitting* someone on the ass!

It is a cop out to say spanking isn't hitting - it sure as hell
ain't tickling!

It is an attempt to control the child with pain, fear or shock.
It has to be one or more of these things - otherwise it would
have no effect on the child!

I don't think any of these things teach a child any
worthwhile lessons.

[sendero]

53. Nice..

.... semantic argument. People who are against spanking call it hitting. How clever. Way to frame, man!

[_TJ_]

56. No framing is required

Spanking *is* hitting on the ass. How do you describe what spanking
is without describing it as hitting someone on the ass? :D

[sendero]

60. If I drink a lot of water..

... and someone tells a friend that I "drink a lot", is that person telling the truth or telling a lie?

If a person slaps an unruly son on the butt and a third party tells a fourth party that that person "hits his son", is the third party telling the truth or a lie.

Please, give it up.

[sonicx]

64. in both cases, it's the truth

drinking water is drinking. spanking is hitting.

Obviously, in casual conversation, you will adject your language so people know what you are talking about.

But this isn't a casual conversation. :)

[sendero]

68. Well...

... I once met a woman. She asked me this hypothetical question:

If a man tells is wife he's going out of town, but he's really going to a suburban town to meet his girlfriend, is he lying?

Of course he was lying, the intent of his words was to deceive, whether they were factual or not.

I find your standard of truth somewhat lacking :)

[sonicx]

73. That's why I said you have to adject your langauge in casual conversation

so that people know what your are talking about. That would cover the "not deceiving" thing.

But there's no reason to do that now. We use language here that we dont't in real life. I'd never call Republicans the things that I do at DU.

[mzmolly]

78. Is it ok for a husband to smack his wife on occassion, or

isn't that black and white either?

[H2O Man]

88. Good question, mzmolly!

I'm sure these advocates of a little spanking wouldn't mind if their employer spanks them if they make a mistake on the job. Or, maybe the old boss is a little tired, or a tad bit cranky. If he wants to spank these open-minded employees, it won't hurt them a bit. If spanking is good for children, it must be equally good for adults.

[mzmolly]

89. Exactly. In fact, I run amok at work if my boss forgets the strap.

;)

[sendero]

100. The vast majority...

..of folks agree that it is wrong to assault another adult.

There is considerable disagreement over the methods that might be effective in disciplining their child.

Please insert another quarter, and try again.

[mzmolly]

103. So because the majority of Americans feel that hitting a small defenseless

child is ok, it must be?

http://cacsi.com/Biblical/DoesaHusbandHaveTheRightToDisciplineHisWife.htm

By that standard the majority of Americans supposedly voted for Bush, so Bush must have been the best choice?

I don't think I'm the one in need of a quarter.

[sendero]

104. There was no....

...vast majority voting for Bush**. 2-3% is not vast. Yes, you do need a quarter, and perhaps a clue :)

[mzmolly]

109. The vast majority of people in some countries feel that it's ok to execute

women for losing their virginity. So does that make it so? Just because a society deems something "ok" doesn't mean that it is. History bears out the fact that people have been brutal and wrong, time and time again.

[H2O Man]

105. All it shows

is the majority of Americans are sharp enough to recognize it's safer to hit little people. By the time boys are in their late teens, parents and teachers recognize that giving them that helpful little slap isn't always a wise choice. Likewise, the really tough guy who slaps his wife -- she made him, don't you know -- will not walk up to someone who is proportionally that much larger than him and say, "Hey, shithead, I'm tired of listening to you, and I'm ready to slap you."

No. They pick little people, those innocent children who absorb the big person's anger, and forgive. It's so much safer.

[mzmolly]

110. You are correct, sir!

No only did the wife provoke that poor husband you speak of above, but that @#^ kid "had it coming" too. ;)

[sonicx]

43. Funny, i seem to remember his post saying...

<<And I am able to say that while not every child who is hit will grow up to hit others>>

[mzmolly]

77. But your defending hitting small children.

That's all the evidence one needs.

[sendero]

94. How about..

... you're defending hitting small children. That's all the evidence I need.

[mzmolly]

96. How about ..

... when you lack a point, look for errors in spelling and grammar.

[sendero]

97. I've made my point...

... well in my all too many posts in this thread. If you don't get it or agree with it, it's not my problem.

I had something to say and I said it. Rather than repeat myself over and over, I'll let you have the last word.

[H2O Man]

98. Well, mzmolly

you could always point out that "anecdote" is singular. (grin)

[mzmolly]

101. LOL

:evilgrin:

[mzmolly]

95. delete

[G_j]

42. the truth is right there

in front of our eyes.

I also hold the current admin. and cheerleaders for military "solutions" responsible for child abuse on a massive scale.
Violence and force are NOT what to teach children!

it makes me literally ill

[mzmolly]

79. Damn straight!

:(

[Jesus Saves]

24. Is it ok if I spank my girlfriend?

[redqueen]

34. Silliness

Off to the lounge with you!

:P

[sendero]

40. Go ahead..

... I really had to edit this out, I was being bad.

[Jacobin]

49. Not if you are Marv.....

:-)

[mzmolly]

80. Only if she asks you too.

;)

[Merope215]

45. I don't really think spanking is all that bad

My parents spanked me probably four or five times when I was growing up, and I don't have any lingering emotional issues (nor am I a violent person). They were always careful to explain that I wasn't getting spanked because they were angry, but because they needed me to learn. I don't remember it hurting much. Other forms of discipline didn't really work on me, I'd imagine. I was a pretty contrary kid.

Raising kids in an environment in which they fear you is definitely not a good thing, nor is slapping them around all the time very productive. If it's an outlet for a parent's anger, then yeah, of course that's a problem. That said, I'm not sure that disciplining a kid with a quick smack on the butt a few times is going to cause lasting psychological damage.

Just my $.02. :shrug:

[_TJ_]

48. You were lucky though

Lots of people were damaged by being hit as a child. The prisons
are full of them!

[Merope215]

51. I was very lucky

I have great parents. I don't doubt that, in most cases, spanking is bad, because I think people tend to use it as a visceral outlet for whatever frustration their children happen to be causing them at the moment. Teaching young kids that it's okay to physically lash out at people when they're annoying you is not a good lesson. I just don't think spanking in itself, when done right, is a terrible thing. Most parents who spank, though, I would say are not good parents.

Thanks for not jumping on me! :hi:

[bleedingheart]

55. there is a big difference...

I too was spanked as a kid and it was typically when I had driven my parents over the edge. I was spanked for wandering away from home with our new dog and my little brother (taking her for a walk)...I was only about 6 and he was 5 and my parents were out of their minds with worry...I got a good old fashioned smack with a belt on the butt for that one...but my parents also explained why.

On the other hand, I had a coworker who once bragged about how she used spankings constantly as punishment...even for spilling stuff.. my office mate and I were really horrified at what she described...it sounded beastly.

[Bouncy Ball]

61. One thing:

If it didn't hurt that much, and other forms of discipline didn't work, how did it work on you?

I don't understand that. What was it about the spanking that was an effective modification on your behavior?

[Merope215]

69. Actually, I don't know

I've been trying to think about that since I re-read my post. I guess maybe it was that my parents are so nonviolent (even though my dad is ex-military) that when I was getting physically punished, I knew that I had REALLY upset them and done something really, really bad. When I got older, I was more worried about making my parents feel bad about their job of raising me than the fear of punishment. I didn't want to let them down.

The humiliation aspect of spanking was probably important too...I was one of those kids where, if you told me to go to my room, I would say something like "Fine! I like it better there anyway!" I was very precocious and probably kind of a pain in the ass sometimes. So it was probably the blow to my pride more than anything that made it an effective modification for me. :P

I wasn't spanked after I turned 5. After that, my parents would just say "Cut it out," and I knew they meant it. I don't think spanking is necessary, but I do know lots of kids whose parents didn't spank them who turned out to be really bratty. I think it has more to do with setting and enforcing limits and designating acceptable behavior than with whether the parent spanks or not. It can go both ways.

[mzmolly]

82. But if you were learning why did you need an explaination?

I think good parents can and do spank at times, but I think said parents would be BETTER parents if they choose not to.

[jhain]

65. Project No Spank

thank you for re posting- I had missed it the first time.

a good resouce:

http://www.nospank.net/

[xmas74]

70. I can say that I have rarely spanked.

I could probably count it on one hand. Most of the time it was for life-threatening things(like an earlier poster stated about running out in the street). I did tap her hand many times when she was young (wanting to touch the stove) but nothing that ever hurt. And truthfully, it was more reflex than anything(knocking her hand out of the way before she burned it).
But I would agree w/ another poster about emotional and psychological abuse having a worse outcome than even the physical. I am still sporting wounds from it (and I am 30 now). I really don't know if I will ever get over it. Maybe that's why I am adament about telling my daughter every single day how much I love her. I never heard it growing up. I heard nasty insults instead. Looking back, I would rather have been spanked.

[mzmolly]

84. Why should a child have to choose a form of abuse at all?

If you hit an adult, you go to jail for assault, if you strike a child it's a "spanking?"

Not that one should have to choose, but if I did I'd rather have an insult or two hurled at me. And, by the way - I experienced the entire gamut growing up.

[cynatnite]

83. We rarely spank

I grew up in a home where spanking was the norm. There was a lot of us and we even lived with my grandparents off and on over the years. My grandfather was abusive at times when the alcohol got out of control.

Now with my own family hubby and I decided if we did spank it would be rare and for what we consider to be very good and valid reasons. What's wound up happening is that each kid has probably had two or three spankings each.

I define spanking as hitting on the butt with the hand. The times we've done it, it winds up being two or three swats and that's it. The last spanking that happened in this house has been over a year ago and that was when our son ran out in front of a truck even after we hollered at him. He was damn lucky. He got a couple of swats on the ass over that one.

When I was a kid we were spanked if we didn't get our chores done, didn't like our tone of voice and other things which were considered bad behavior. I grew up in a religious conservative home where the saying of spare the rod, spoil the child was a rule of thumb.

I didn't believe it should be that way. The problem was the hypocrisy that I saw. It was the whole do as I say, not as I do kind of thing that just didn't work for me.

Hubby and I decided that doing away with spanking altogether wasn't something we felt we should do, but we weren't going to take it to excess as was done during my childhood. I have an uncle that never disciplined his daughter at all and she turned into a spoiled uncontrollable brat.

So we think we found a middle ground where spanking is rare so that if it has to be done then the kids know we mean business. We figure we're just about through with it altogether now since our youngest is now six. He's at an age where he's more aware of right and wrong, plus the punishments we give don't require spanking since there are other effective ways of getting the message across.

The other thing is that we believe when a child reaches a certain age they are beginning to be capable of reasoning things out. We do work with them so that they will think before they act. They are starting to grow out of the impulsive behavior.

Parents raise their children as they see fit and even if I or anyone else does not agree with how they're being brought up I am resistant to the very idea of the government telling me how to do it just as most parents would.

[cynatnite]

90. What is the definition of spanking?

Reading through all the posts on this it seems to me that people have different ideas on what it is.

I see spanking as continual swatting on the ass until the kid is crying. I don't see the purpose in that really. Causing pain in such a way just doesn't strike me as a way to teach a lesson.

When we spank, it consists of 2-4 swats on the butt. It's enough to let them know that the behavior, and it's gotta be bad, won't be tolerated. We don't do it if they don't pick up their toys, accidentally break a plate or other what I call normal misbehaviors that kids do.

It just seems to me there are degrees of spanking and there are varying ideas on what it is.

[mzmolly]

93. To my understanding the law defines physical abuse of a child as

anything that leaves a mark. You can apparently "spank" a child silly if you can manage without leaving evidence.

Dictionary.com describes spanking as such:

"A number of slaps on the buttocks delivered in rapid succession, as for punishment."

And describes abuse as such:

... to hurt or injure by maltreatment.

"Maltreatment" being the operative word. Is spanking maltreatment? Some here say no, others say yes.

[ChaoticSilly]

102. I think there is a definite difference in spanking and beating

Spanking is what my mother would do to me - a light swat (slap, hit, strike - whatever you want to call it) on the butt or hand just hard enough to get my attention and a stern tone of voice - always with several warnings beforehand and, once I was old enough to understand, an explanation afterwards.

Beating is what my father did - my mother left my older sister with him while she ran to the store. About 10 minutes later, when she came home, my sister (maybe 3 years old at the time - before I was born) was crying and had a hand print in the middle of her back. When asked what she did, my father said she got in front of the television. Needless to say, none of us were ever left at home with my father again.

In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with the first situation - in fact, it was about the only thing that would get my attention. Things like time outs, taking toys away or sending me to my room just didn't really work on me. I'm not saying it's the best thing to do to everybody - I just think that different people will respond better to different types of punishment and that punishment should really just be enough to get the kid's attention to teach them that what they were doing was wrong.

There is absolutely no excuse for the 2nd situation though.

[Nederland]

113. Two Points

First of all, I have a two year old daughter that I have no intention of ever spanking. That being said, I want to make two points about your links.

The first one says that 90% of the membership of the American Academy of Pediatrics recommend either that spanking never be used, or that it be used on only very rare occasions. Since I see no one posting here that is recommending that spanking be used frequently, this position isn't really different from what anyone here is supporting. It would be extremely interesting to see the numbers broken down by how many members of the Academy believe spanking is always wrong. I bet the number is rather low.

The second one relies upon data gathered from 5000 people and there recollections of their own childhood. Data of this type is notoriously unreliable. A far more accurate way of determining linkages between spanking and disorders is to take test subjects and track them into adulthood. That prevents data from being skewed by the fog of childhood memories.

[redqueen]

118. 10,000, not 5,000

And I'm sure in the 50s not all doctors said smoking was bad for you, either.

[Nederland]

120. Response

They based their study on data collected as part of a 1990 population health survey by the Ontario Ministry of Health of 10,000 adults in the province. Five thousand of the subjects had been asked questions about spanking during childhood.

While the survey involved 10,000 people, only 5000 of those were included in the statistics.

[redqueen]

121. Ah thanks, I hadn't noticed that.

It doesn't really change the results or my interpretation of them, but point taken.

[Pathwalker]

130. IF YOU BEAT A SHEEP, IT DIES OR GOES CRAZY

AND KILLS ITSELF. It also releases a chemical which poisons the meat.
So, all you parents who consider yourselves "Good Shepherds", you should learn that NO SHEPHERD - not even a cold-hearted one - would EVER consider hitting his sheep.
Sheep are so easily frightened, that after one gets lost, they put it in the MIDDLE of the herd to calm it down. That ROD you all like to use is solely for the purpose of GENTLY PRODDING the sheep in the direction you want it to go - anything more and the sheep will be traumatized and lose it's mind, or DROP DEAD ON THE SPOT.

Using Bible verses to justify hitting, beating, or otherwise harming a child EXPOSES for the entire world to see, that the person is TOTALLY IGNORANT of how to be a GOOD SHEPHERD. Stupid, stupid, stupid people.