I love liberals

[goodboy]

I love our diversity.

I love our Cause.

I love our Conscience.

I love what we've achieved over the years.

I love what liberals have taught me, and I love being your student!

I love how you've all been so willing to learn from me as well.

I love how you've called me on my bullshit sometimes.

I love how you keep me honest.

I love what our future holds.

I love what we fight for.

I love what we're willing to die for:

Peace, Social Justice, Equality, Tolerance, Acceptance, Generosity, Progressiveness, Pursuit of Truth, Pursuit of Knowledge, Kindness, Dignity, Respect, and Love.



And most of all: I love our differences of opinion, which is the what really separates us from the Pukes. If we agreed all the time on every issue, we'd be Republicans. I want all of you to know, that even though I've had disagreements with some people here at one time or another, I do not have a single person on ignore. To me, to ignore someone is an awfully conservative thing to do, and although I might disagree with you, I still need to hear what you have to say. Because we're all important, all 68,601 of you.

So thank you for helping me to become a better person, a better listener, a more critical thinker, a better liberal.

--goodboy

[Tux]

1. Thanks

[goodboy]

3. and thank you, my good friend.

[Burma Jones]

2. I love our Women

in addition to what you've posted.

My liberal wife demonstrates the power of kindness to me every day. I don't know why any half intelligent man would marry anyone but a liberal woman.

[goodboy]

4. I second that....I'd be a shell of a man without my wife, who grew up

under communist rule in Estonia. I've learned so much from her.

[erichzann]

5. I think willpitt's post is more in touch with reality.

[goodboy]

7. what are you talking about? did you even read my post?

[erichzann]

11. Of course. Just my opinion.

Flowery abstract talk is great, and has its place I guess. But right now we liberals do not often live up to the promise of our "liberalism." Rarely do we truly reflect the attitudes of my signature. What we mostly do is fight with each other. And I think now is more the time to start owning up to those realities and less the time for flowery talk.

Again, that's just my opinion. But of course, I'm sure that rather than being comfortable with different opinions, a flame war will get started - becuase that's kind of what we seem to do (we meaning the broader liberal community, not just this board.)

[goodboy]

14. could you please elaborate? maybe give a few examples?

[erichzann]

15. See my edit above, or read Will's post.

[goodboy]

21. I completely disagree. We do, in fact, embody the attitudes in your

sig line, in fact:

"Favoring proposals of reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others"

That's what liberals do, and sometimes we disagree, but that doesn't change the fact that we're liberals does it?

Re-read pitt's essay again, and substitute "liberal" with the word, "hypocrite". In the context of his essay, that's what he's saying.


Just because you claim to be a liberal, doesn't mean you are. Lumping all liberals into the same category is like saying all black people are lazy.

[erichzann]

27. Well, I completely disagree with you too :)

I don't believe that we are as tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others as we like to claim we are. And I think there is abundant evidence for this. All one needed to do is hang out here during the election cycle to see that "tolerance" really wasn't the word that best fit the community. (Oh yes, I was a long, long time lurker.)

You're also pretty wrong about what Will is saying, and I feel I can say that because if you read his essay, he tells you that your wrong in your interpretation. It really serves no purpose to say things like "well, those people aren't "real" liberals" as an excuse for concerning kinds of attitudes or behavior. It makes no difference to me whether in your estimation x number of people who call themselves liberals are hypocrites. In my opinion, if that's your approach the majority of people who call themselves liberals would be labeled hypocrites.

I am not lumping all liberals into any category. I am saying that I believe that will's comments more frequently reflect actual reality than flowery comments about how liberals all stand for truth, justice and the American way. I feel that true liberalism is all but dead in America. And that what's left of liberalism in the Democratic party is hemoraging and on life support at best. Now isn't the time to say "oh my god we're so great!" Now is the time, in my opinion to say "we are in serious, serious trouble - and that trouble is as much from the need for re-awakening and revolution from within as much as it is from the threat of tyrannical neo-conservatism from without."

Now, of course we don't have to agree. But I am not stupid, and neither are you. We just have different experiences and see things differently.

EDIT - by the way, your comment about generalizing a group of people - that's exactly what your post does as well. So is it ok if the ideas are positive and only "wrong" if the ideas are critical? I don't think so. As a member of the "group" I am commenting on, I have a perfect right to give my opinion about trends or patterns I see within that group. That doesn't mean I am implying that "all" people are a certain way.

[goodboy]

29. tell me

"You're also pretty wrong about what Will is saying, and I feel I can say that because if you read his essay, he tells you that your wrong in your interpretation."

I read it, and re-read it.

Once again, just because someone says they're a liberal, doesn't mean that they are. George bush says he president of all the people, is that true?


And I'm not saying that Pitts essay means the majority of liberals are hypocrites. But in the context of the essay, that's what he's saying.

[erichzann]

34. No, that's what you're saying.

"And I'm not saying that Pitts essay means the majority of liberals are hypocrites. But in the context of the essay, that's what he's saying."

No, that's what you're saying.

And its a semantical difference that is totally irrelevant. Whether or not the majority of people calling themsleves liberals are hypocrites or whether or not they are real liberals who often fail to live up to the promise of liberalism - the point is the same. Within the group of people identifying themselves as liberal in america, the obersvations stand as valid.

[goodboy]

57. The difference isn't semantic, and the difference isn't irrelevant IMO

He said he hates liberals.

I said I love liberals.


That's more than a semantic difference./

[erichzann]

33. You know what, that's not true - I don't "completely" disagree

It's not true that I completely disagree with you, I should have said that differently. I love the ideal of the things you list. And at its very best, liberals live up to that ideal.

However, I believe that those ideals are betrayed more often than they are realized in this day and age, and that's sad to me. And it's also a chastising message to myself -

How many times do I betray the kind of liberal principles and ideas I pay so much lip service too?

What are the kinds of real life situations that get me to betray my core values about tolerance and rational discussion?

What kind of biases do I bring to the table when I deal with other people on the issues?

What kind of hypocrisy do I carry around in my own life that I don't even see right now, and how can I better understand and thus correct those things?

What kinds of things make me angry and how do I react to arguments or disagreements from "within?" Am I a voice of reason and rationality - do I strive to promote constructive discourse, or do my emotions just run rampant?

These are the questions that I ask myself just as much as I evaluate the behavior of others by them.

[goodboy]

35. well, then my next question is:

How liberal is it to say you hate other liberals? (in context)

[erichzann]

37. Common now! Let's not get silly.

How liberal is it? About as liberal as it is to say you "love" liberals in context.

When you said "I love liberals" I did not assume you meant sexually. I'm able to appropriately understand the context of the word "love."

Likewise, when someone else writes a long essay in which the context of the statement "I hate liberals" is clearly explained, I don't assume it means that the person really loathes liberal people, but hates contradiction and is frustrated by it. It doesn't take a rocket scientists to read "I hate liberals" in context as "I hate how often those proclaiming liberalism fail to live up to those ideals."

That's really not particularly complicated. Now let me ask you a question: what if anything productive or valuable is going to come from our continuing discussion of this? Is there any reason to continuing going down this thread other than for the sake of pure argument alone?

Personally, I respect your right to your own perspective, but I have really nothing more to add about it. It seems to me that if we're both serious about meaningful, edifying discussion, then perhaps we've exhausted this line, and its time to shake hands and move on to the next thing...

[goodboy]

39. I didn't make this thread

to talk about Will Pitt.


So let's shake hands, and move on;



:patriot:

[tabasco]

38. Liberalism is dead in America? Think again.

The virtues of liberalism far outweigh temporal political disadvantages.

Liberalism in fact always wins. We will win again in the United States and beat back the forces of authoritarianism and greed.

I'm a two-time combat vet ready to fight for liberalism, and there's a lot more like me out there.

It may be your wish that liberalism dies, but the only thing dying is the outdated ideas of those who would be kings.

The republicans in the USA are isolated. They are desperate. They are despised by most Americans and the rest of the world. They have seized power here, but that too will pass. Sooner than you think.

America is the last stand for fascism, and fascism will lose again, like it always does.

[erichzann]

44. I think that's unlikely - but I deeply hope that I am wrong.

I don't know why you would add a comment like "it may be your wish that liberalism die" which seems to be little by inflammatory. Of course I don't want liberalism to die, I want it to be very alive.

You talk about this stand against fascist republicans - but my point is, I haven't seen real liberalism be mainstream in American politics in my life time. The Democratic party hasn't seriously reflected a truly liberal platform since I've been alive. They are simply "better" than the alternative. When I think of "liberalism" I think of liberalism such as you would see in countries outside America I guess, as opposed to what I think we should start calling "American liberalism" or "liberalism-lite."

So you're talking about "winning" this victory as though "liberalism" is the norm in America and current events are just some sort of temporary variation. But I'm saying to you I haven't seen actual honest to god liberalism in power in Washington in my lifetime. So unless you see this "battle" as much larger and longer in scope, I'm not sure I share your optimism.

[tabasco]

47. I look at things in the long-term.

The battle has been going on for millennia.

How many millennia did mankind have strong-man (fascist) rule before there was any idea of democracy (liberalism)?

Suffice it to say we are still fighting ancient concepts - the law of the jungle; the belief that might makes right; social darwinism; the animal lust for power.

Study history and see kings become the stuff of history books. For the most part, we no longer have kings, we have now corporate elitists who would be king. They support the same ancient concepts listed above. They will lose, like King George, Napoleon, and Hitler lost.

The neoconservative movement in the US is nothing more than the ugly head of fascism rising again. They will lose again.

Although humans are still hindered by remnants of our animal past, we do have the capacity to learn and pass on knowledge. This capacity is the greatest foe of fascists. This capacity is why we will win in the long run.

If things are not moving fast enough for you, then get involved. Every little bit helps. Perhaps liberals have been asleep at the wheel to allow the neocons to make their power grab, but it hardly means liberalism is "dead in America" as you stated.

You may not share my optimism, but I do not share your pessimism.

[AuntiBush]

64. That's the WHOLE POINT of being LIBERAL & DEMOCRATIC

You can't please half of the people, half of the times these days.

In a "liberal," "democratic" society, debate is always on the table. And all minds do not have to think alike. That's what being liberal is all about.

GOP labeled Kerry as a flip-flopper, when in reality he voted on issues that Bush * Co lied about, then as issues began to surface that showed different, he changed his mind.

No narrow-mindedness. No uncompromising positioning.

Kerry displayed and still does convictions to all Americans, that one can re-think all issues, re-discover, re-debate till one tries to get things right. Rather then being NARROW-MINDED, like Rethugs OBVIOUSLY are.

[erichzann]

66. What matters is the tone of the debate.

And there's plenty of narrow-mindedness and ideological entrenchment to go around on both sides of the isle.

However, to be fair - we can also toss around terms like "narrow minded" too easily. For example, I believe in reproductive rights. If you don't I think that you are wrong. I'm not ashamed to admit that. We can't both be right. I hold the view I hold because I believe it is the right view. Does that make me narrow-minded, because I don't believe we are both right? No probably not...

...but if you take that a bit further then we start asking questions like, is it narrow-minded if I don't believe a pro-life person should be a member of the democratic party. Most people would say yes, that is narrow minded and contrary to the ideals of liberalism. Sounds great. But where is the line then? What if I'm pro-life and pro-corporate welfare? Well, there's room to disagree we might say. Well, what if I'm pro-life, pro-corporate welfare, anti-gay? What if I'm pro-life, pro-corporate welfare, anti-gay and anti-privacy?

If we take the "big tent" analogy to an extreme, pretty soon all we have is a whole lot of nothing. There must be some clear principles that are foundational to what it means to be a democratic and a liberal (assuming you believe those two things should be the same). Right now we have in Washington DC some pro-life, pro-corporate welfare people calling themselves democrats who oppose gay rights and support anti-privacy legislation including, but not limited to the USA Patriot Act. Those positions do not represent anything that I stand for. I don't find fellowship or common ground with such positions? I don't want to be in a big tent with people who I completely disagree with.

Does that mean that I am not embracing the spirit of liberalism? Where do those feelings fit in with the attitudes of tolerance that are part of that definition? How do we walk the line between an inclusive open party and an watered down party so devoid of any clear agreed upon foundational principles that we lose all effectiveness? These are questions that trouble me.

On the one hand, I don't like it when a liberal who suggests a controversial or unorthodox opinion is attacked and run out on a rail, and that happens all the time. On the other hand, neither do I believe that every person who says "I'm a democrat" or "I'm a liberal" is one. There has to be some kind of clear litmus test for adopting these names for oneself. I shouldn't mean just anything, because then it means nothing. And to outsides we look like a rag-tag group of fools who have no clue what they stand for.

To me, this is a complicated issue that I don't have any good answers for. Where is the line between healthy inclusively and tolerance for different views and a healthy rejection of ideas and beliefs that fundamentally contradict what liberalism stands for?

[Montauk6]

6. Cue the O'Jays

I love, I love, I love, I love, I love liiiib-rulllllls

[goodboy]

8. HA! (tweety style)

[Caoimhe]

9. We love our liberal men as well

I cannot imagine being in a relationship with someone who was a conservative and thought I was his property, his brood mare, his housekeeper or his prostitute. Thanks liberal men, for being wonderful, thoughtful and respectful people, and recognizing that (most) women are ACTUALLY born with brains and are not just a combination of T & A.


:loveya:

[eridani]

79. Not only bigger hearts, but bigger in every way n/t

Not that I've done a statistically valid sample, mind you.

[slor]

10. Thank you...

and I love you too.

[goodboy]

20. *HUGS*

[carnie_sf]

12. Without liberals

there would have been no America.

[goodboy]

18. Without liberals, there may be no America soon...(nt)

[shockra]

13. I saw this quote the other day...

Which made me think of the difference between liberals and conservatives:

"When everyone is thinking alike, then no one is thinking." -- Ben Franklin

Sure, we'd love to be as cohesive as conservatives are most of the time, but that depends on no one thinking for themselves. I'd prefer a bunch of thinkers who provoke each other to think.

[goodboy]

16. cohesiveness in relation to organization isn't the same as 'group think'

we can be organized, and stay on message, and still not be the lemmings that Pukes are.

[shockra]

42. Uh, thanks for arguing against something I didn't say.

I think I get the point now about liberals not being able to agree even when they agree. ;)

[goodboy]

58. I apologize, I was typing faster than I was thinking, and before I knew it

I'd already hit "return"

[tabasco]

40. Thank you for the great quote.

The Founding Fathers were a brilliant group of liberals !

In 1776, conservatives were tories and supported the king. Today, neoconservatives are no longer conservative, but support another George who would be king !

[SmokingJacket]

17. All I have to do is look at other liberals to know I'm on the right side.

All my heroes are liberals.

I'm proud to be counted among them.

[goodboy]

23. SJ, thanks for being here. *nt*

[seabeyond]

19. i love; love

O8):hippie: :toast:

lol lol not so hard

i am tellin ya, we need a peace, rockin, family picnic in the park.....rally. i could go for some sun in the fun. summer is comin

[goodboy]

22. May 7th, Columbus ohio..DU meetup. We'll go to the park.

[in_cog_ni_to]

24. We're "The GOOD guys!"

I love Liberals too. I'm so PROUD to be one. I can stand tall knowing I stand for what's GOOD and DECENT in this world.

I was watching the "Save Social Security" rally from yesterday with our House and Senate Dems and just smiled and smiled and smiled through the whole thing. Democrats make me happy! They CARE about people. (except for that damn bankruptcy bill :()At the end of the rally they were actually DANCING to the song that was playing! It was a hoot. Dems are cool. I could never imagine those stiff old stodgy repukes standing on stage groovin' with the music. Not ever.

Anyway, NO! Thank You for coming here and participating in this wonderful forum and making it a lively, informative place to be. We're all better for having you here. ;) :hi:

Ignore list? What's that? I'm POSITIVE I'm on many ignore lists, but have NEVER had anyone on mine and I've been here from almost the beginning of DU. If I don't like a particular member, I just don't read them. :)

[goodboy]

25. in_cog_ni_to...you're a good friend. Thank you for

fighting on behalf of liberals everywhere, and fighting to save the stupid Freekers, and Fundies from themselves.

[Lone Pawn]

26. Well I love people who love liberals.

[goodboy]

28. Even if they disagree with you sometimes? Even if they get under your

skin sometimes?

I do. It keeps me honest.

[Lone Pawn]

32. Well, of course I do.

Liberals are aggravating, but I love them anyway.

[goodboy]

36. and if we didn't disagree sometimes, or have divergent points of view

we'd be republicans.

[Catherine Vincent]

30. And liberals love you too.

:-)

[goodboy]

31. Likewise!

:hugs:

[meganmonkey]

41. It's all about the love, brother!

:hug:

[abbiehoff]

43. I love liberals too, but

I've always thought that the great irony of liberalism vs. conservatism is that liberals, who basically believe that we're all in this together and need to look out for each other seem to have so much trouble coming together in common cause, while conservatives who seem to believe that it's every man for himself and step on anyone who gets in your way, seem to be able to put together massive, unstoppable political machines. Why is that?

[goodboy]

53. But liberals have nothing to gain from the 'group think' that pukes are

famous for...


That's what got us into the iraq war.

[ananda]

45. Thank you!

So do I.

And I don't expect every liberal to agree and toe a hard line like those in the GOP.

"Variety is the spice of life." -- La Fontaine


Sue

[goodboy]

54. nice quote sue! and thank you!

[cry baby]

46. i love us, too

[Bouncy Ball]

48. Great post. Nominated.

I love liberals, too. SO much!!! :D

Liberals rock. I'm married to one, both of my closest friends are liberals. I was raised by liberals. I work for a liberal. And the people in public service whom I admire the most are liberals.

Hell, the most HONEST people I know are all liberals.

[goodboy]

52. You inspired me Bouncy!

[Bouncy Ball]

67. Now I'm blushing!

:blush:

:toast:

[goodboy]

71. It's the truth. This thread is dedicated to you! (nt)

[thecai]

49. Good Boy, Goodboy!

You're a sweetie. What an encouraging post!
"Hang on, stay strong", and if we continue to work together, we can help bring Liberty and Equality into this administration. and back into The U.S.. It is what America stands for, and we must refuse to allow the malfeasance to rule us.

LOVE and PEACE!

[goodboy]

55. and no matter if we disagree sometimes, we're still right!

[mzmolly]

50. "I have a love/hate relationship with liberals"

:P

[goodboy]

59. I understand. but I'll betcha you love more than you hate. (nt)

[mzmolly]

65. You bet I do!

;)

[goodboy]

70. you're a sweet person, mzmolly! (nt)

[mzmolly]

76. Backatcha!

:hi:

[goodboy]

77. Thank You!

[earth mom]

51. Thank you for this thread! I LOVE liberals too!

We as liberals must look for the silver lining, or the rainbow on our darkest, cloudiest days. There is a lot of ugliness and evil out there in this country and the world and we must never give up our fight against it. As well, I would never want any of us to be carbon copies of each other like the rethug freepers are. Instead, I would hope that since none of us are perfect, we could celebrate each others similarities as well as our differences and rise above the freeper ideology of hating any one that isn't exactly the same. How boring and pointless would that be?!

O8)

[goodboy]

56. once again, the golden rule comes through! Thank you!

[earth mom]

61. Thank you...

:blush:

and again, I'm not perfect, I have my rough edges and my stubborn streak...though I try to be the first to admit it-LOL!

[goodboy]

74. and admitting it is the first step towards recovery...(LOL) LOve yA!

[Q]

60. Great thread...

...but along comes the reality of factions on both the right AND the so-called center-left trying to demonize liberals and reverse everything they've ever accomplished FOR the people.

Being a Liberal is about caring for people over money and power. Contrary to what the RWingers and DLCers may think...there is nothing 'elitist' about being a liberal.

Pitt's thread was awful in the sense that he used a couple hecklers to stereotype all Liberals. That may not have been his intent...but it ended up bringing out all the liberal haters to join in the fray.

Thanks for being a Liberal. We could use about a hundred million more...

[goodboy]

62. it gives me confidence to know you support me...and I'm standing shoulder

to shoulder with you as well.

[Bouncy Ball]

68. I can never in a million years imagine caring more about power

or money than people. I've even tried to imagine it. I truly can't. My mind can't even go there. If we don't care about and watch out for each other, what is this life for, anyway?

To me, other people and how I treat them is all life is about.

That's why, over the last few years, I've come to trust liberals and surround myself with them more and more. I don't treat conservatives badly (though I do have some fairly bad words for them HERE), I don't treat anyone badly, in fact.

But I know that MOST of my fellow liberals feel the way I do about other people, thus I know I can trust them. With conservatives, not so much. While there may be SOME who truly care about others, based on what their party has been doing for the past, oh 30 years or so (and more so in the past 10-15), they must feel like the oddballs in their group.

[AuntiBush]

63. Thanks, Goodboy! Smiling your way.

:)

I love this place, as well.

[goodboy]

72. It wouldn't be the same without you Aunti! (peace)

[libodem]

69. thanx

for the feel-good message. I feel the love. Sometimes it is so easy to feel sarcastic, cranky, and plaintive. An uplifting message with positive points is infectious and I hope we all catch it. Good on ya. Good on us all. thanks again...libodem

[goodboy]

73. I hope so too...Liberals are united in love, and pukes are united in hate

I'm glad I'm on our side...it's good for my soul./

[patricia92243]

75. Will you marry me?? Pleeease :)

:)

[goodboy]

78. You'll have to ask my wife, and then we'll have to move to Utah :D

[in_cog_ni_to]

80. hehe

:rofl:

Got Polygamy?

[goodboy]

81. hey did you hear about those asshole fundie LDS people in texas

who were rushing to complete their temple for the end of the world on april 5th?
Utah Based Polygamy Group Awaits the End of the World
Apr. 5, 2005

All seems quiet near a polygamist compound in Texas, where a Utah-based polygamist group awaits a self-proclaimed Doomsday.

Some followers have said their prophet has predicted the world will end tomorrow.

Just ahead, you'll hear Warren Jeff's own voice and words, to give you some insight into his teachings.

We first told you in February, about the Texas Prophecy of Warren Jeffs.

At that time, Jeffs' followers were working in a frenzy, to build this huge temple ... apparently hoping to complete it by tomorrow, April 6th.

In recent days, we've been told, a number of Jeffs followers have traveled to the Texas compound, from their homes on the Utah- Arizona border.

But who is Warren Jeffs? And what are his teachings?

John Hollenhorst joins us with secretly made recordings of his instructions to followers.

Jeffs took control of the Fundamentalist L.D.S. Church several years ago from his home in Hildale, Utah.

Since then he's dropped out of sight while starting new compounds in Colorado and Texas.

[in_cog_ni_to]

82. Geez. No, I missed that little fairy tale.

:eyes: Did anyone tell Mr. Jeffs that it's now April 26, 2005 and we're still here?

Another Jimmy Jones? :scared:

[goodboy]

83. if he is like jimmy jones, and he takes a bunch of his followers

with him...

more proof of evolution, and natural selection...the bottom of the fucking food chain. (thanks Denis Leary)

[MisterP]

84. "The Apocalypse is on hold. We apologize for the inconvenience

and ask that you please bear with us. Thank you and have a nice day."

[tallahasseedem]

85. Me too.

There is something empowering about not being part of the mindless flock of sheep who are willing to believe anything in the name of faith.