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xpat Donating Member (295 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 01:50 PM
Original message
The C-word: Conscription
Administration policy is to stay in Iraq. Period. So, we need the draft. Here's Stan Goff's thoughts on conscription, empire and the wagged dog:

http://freedomroad.org/content/view/329/56/

"In January, Congressman Charles Rangel's office announced his intention to reintroduce a bill reinstating the draft. The same bill, then entitled HR163, was summarily introduced and voted down in October last year, when the Democrats began to see it as an election year liability for John Kerry. Rangel is a Democrat, and a stubborn one by the looks of it, who seems honestly to believe in his draft/national service scheme, contrary to the speculation (which I shared last year) that this was merely a partisan ploy to point up contradictions about the war and occupation in Iraq. Rangel seems to agree with former South Carolina Senator Fritz Hollings that having a draft would make it more difficult to achieve consensus in the United States in support of military adventures.

Oddly enough, Donald Rumsfeld agrees with them.

and much, much more

"
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 01:53 PM
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1. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Look at the alternative
Will this administration WITHDRAW FROM IRAQ? According to people who have researched the matter the US Army will go into terminal decline to to lack of new recruits sometime in 2006 (Rough Estimate depends on how the fighting continues in Iraq AND if the US expands the War ti include Iran). Thus basically the Army will be done by 2006.

I believe that had The US had the draft at the time of 9/11 Bush could NOT have gone into Iraq (Afghanistan yes, but not Iraq) because the Draft means more people would know someone in the military and thus oppose sending the troops to war. This is the main reason the GOP oppose the raft, a draft makes it harder to send the Troops anywhere Corporate America wants the US to intervene. A draft would complicate such commitments, that a mercenary army (which is what the US has at the present time) does not have to really worry about.

Thus the problem for Bush is come 2006 you will see a situation like Israel had in Lebanon in the 1980s and 1990s. Israel was unwilling to send in Israeli troops (Who tend to be reservists), but with no one enlisting for "Regular" troops service do to the ongoing losses in Lebanon Israel was forced to withdraw. (I know the Israeli Army is not form the same way as the US Army and most of the losses Israel suffered in the Lebanese war was among its allies in South Lebanon. Those allies were formed into the South Lebanese Army which became less and less Christian and more and more hired mercenary Moslem's as the occupation lasted. Even with the Switch to Mercenary Muslims the Israelis could NOT recruit the troops needed to hold Lebanon so Israel Abandoned southern Lebanon).

Back on track, my point is the US Army will "crack" sometime in 2006 do to lack of recruits. The US does not have the option of hiring a local mercenary army to do its work (Like how Israel Recruited the South Lebanon Army). The attempts have been failures except for the Kurds who want to fight for an independent Kurdistan (and thus willing to help the US against their fellow Iraqis but not really willing to fight to keep Iraq whole under US Control). Thus unless the insurgency dies down within the next year (And that is NOT expected) Bush will have to make a choice, pull out of Iraq OR institute the Draft. Bush wants NEITHER, but come 2006 he will have to choose, and I fear he will opt for the Draft rather than pull out of Iraq.

One last comment, I see the draft being first for "Skill" positions, i.e. Medical personal, Computer people, Linguists who generally NOT be in the line of fire (and the Draft will be justified on that ground, i.e. we need these people BUT they will not be fired upon). Once the Skill draft is implemented than a secondary Draft to built back up the Reserves and National Guard "To help the States" (Yes after destroying the Guard, Bush will "save" the Guard with the draft so that the states can have the Guard for Emergencies). It is only after the Draft is imposed to "save" the Guard will the draft be extended to the Regular Army (Through this may take Months instead of years, so watch how it works out).
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smirkymonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Unless, of course, we are "attacked" again.
:nuke: :tinfoilhat: :eyes:
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xpat Donating Member (295 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. If you want an empire, you need cannon fodder.
Of course, we could always opt for a republic and all this draft business becomes moot.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
2. I think they plan on emptying the prisons and conscripting felons.
You know.. a press gang of sorts.
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The Devils Advocate Donating Member (57 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
3. I agree with Rangel.
Our military is currently all volunteer, but in a way that is also all mercenary. It is easier to rationalize someone's death if they died doing something they volunteered for. If people were to be conscripted against their will and made to kill and die in a faraway land, the public attitude would be very different.

This assumes that the draft is administered fairly. If it becomes a rascist/classist endeavor which sacrifices the poor and minorities while protecting the privelaged, well that will lead to the sort of problems which resulted in the popular movements of the sixties.

Either way, a conscription in this country would lead to a mass uprising, and I am all for it.
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Tunkamerica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I am suspicious of anyone who advocates the draft
... I am curious as to how old you are, and if you have any children.

Using young men's lives to instigate a "mass uprising" is cold, especially if you won't be part of the group that dies for your social theory. Because it is just a theory.
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pilgrimsoul Donating Member (266 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. Sadly, it is all too easy for SS to discriminate
I have just applied to serve on a local SS board, and just from looking at the 6-page info booklet that came with my application, the process is a maddeningly confusing morass of bureaucracy. I think this structure is deliberate to obfuscate how the process is handled, and to allow special treatment for children of the privileged and well-connected. There are National, State, and regional offices, Local and District Appeal Boards, State AND National Health Advisory Committees, both paid and volunteer positions up and down the ladder -- all with unclear operating relationships and authority. Seriously, the org chart is a frigging circle!

My one hope is that if I'm selected to serve on the SS board, I can have some small impact on making the process more fair, at least in the community where I live.
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Charon Donating Member (321 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #3
13. I agree with Rangel
Concur. The draft as it operated during the Kennedy, Johnson and Nixon years was racist and classist. Getting legislation to end all deferments is the key.
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renaissanceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #3
14. No thanks.
I am not willing to die for another war.

http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues/588704
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ProgressiveConn Donating Member (820 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
4. Anyone who votes for a draft is a greater enemy than Bin Laden and Saddam
combined. And I will treat them as such.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 06:03 AM
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10. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Actually not quite true for the Roman Army.
Edited on Mon Apr-25-05 11:12 PM by happyslug
From 90 BC (When Maius "reformed" the Roman army and made it a Mercenary Army) till after the Battle of Adrianople (A.D. 378), the Roman Army, while Mercenary was overwhelmingly Roman in makeup. In the Eastern Empire it appears to stay Roman (and that was a fact in why the Eastern Empire Survived till the Renaissance, The Eastern Capital Constantinople would fall to the Turks in 1453AD).

On the other hand the Western Empire seems to have embraced the Germans for its troops. It is only with this embrace that the Western Empire "Fell" (And this more after the Goths took Rome in 410 AD than before 410 AD). While the Roman Army seems to start to dissolved after 410 AD, parts of it survived to defeat Attila the Hun in the battle of Châlons in 451 AD. While the Roman Army after 451 AD was Overwhelmingly German to say that Roman Empire in the West fell in this period is a very inaccurate term. Roman Traditions and Roman Law survived till Charlemagne's Time (c800AD) and when you are looking at the "Native" Romans, while the "Invading" Germans retained their own law throughout the "Dark Ages" most of the "Roman" Subjects stayed under "Roman Law". Throughout the Middle Ages you had tension between these two systems that was not even resolved with the "restoration" of Roman law during the Renaissance.

The interesting fact was that part of the Roman Empire that retained "Romans" as the base for its army survived (i.e. The Eastern Empire), while the part of the Roman Empire that opt for Foreign Mercenaries fell within 50 years of that decision (i.e. the Western Empire, and I may say it may have fell within 20 years depending on how you look at the period 451-476 when Germans were running the Western Empire AND that the last real Roman Forces dissolved after the death of Aetius in 454 AD (For more in Aetius See http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01177b.htm Aetius is known as the man who Defeated Attila the Hun at Châlons in 451 AD).

Now from the time of Hannibal (c200BC), Rome had hired "Auxiliaries" from its subject people, but never left them get over 33% of their army (and mostly kept them less than 10%). One advantage of being in the Auxiliaries were you received Roman Citizenship for yourself and your family. By 212 AD so many people had become Roman Citizens either through serving in the Auxiliaries or otherwise became Roman Citizens that the Empire just declared everyone in the Empire a Roman Citizen. Thus by the time the Roman Empire in the West Fell (476AD) everyone within the Empire had been Citizens for over 260 years (With most people being Citizens for even longer periods). In many ways the Adoption of Christianity was an effort to bring one religion to the Empire for the older Pagan religions were to regional in scope to unite the Empire and thus only an Empire Wide Religion could do the job (and it appears that by 212 AD the people of what we call the Roman Empire did not use that term, preferring to called themselves Citizens of Romania).

Given the economic decay that Rome was in from the fall of the Republic onward (and the Roman's elites refusal to fix the problem for it meant giving up most of their wealth and power) it is surprising Rome was able to raise an army for as long as it did (In the East, The Eastern Empire dropped its Mercenary Army in response to the Persian invasion and than Arab Invasion of the Seventh Century, but Greece and right is now Turkey was the only area of the Roman Empire made up of small farmers instead of large estates). In the west when a choice came between arming their own peasants and hiring foreign mercenaries, the Romans opt for the foreign mercenaries for their main enemies was NOT the Germans but their own peasants.

When the Goths Marched on Rome in 410 AD, their army GREW as it marched as Roman Peasants joined it. This was characteristic of the Fall of Rome, Roman Peasants joining the Foreign "Invaders" instead of fighting them (The only exceptions seems to be if the invaders were Non-Christians, then opposition occurred, but if the invaders were Christians, such as the Goths, many peasants joined the "invaders"). Now the Romans in the West defeated every Invading German force (Except the Goths and Vandals) and once defeated put the defeated Germans in an area of a peasant revolt with orders to keep the peasants down. These Mercenaries were thus hired by Rome to keep their own people down. This worked for a few generations but as the Peasants and Germans intermingled the Germans increasing took the side of the Peasants over their Roman landlords. In many ways the removal of the last Western Emperor on 476 AD by his German military leader was more to remove Roman Interference with what the Germans were doing with the Romans Peasants than to kill the Empire (In fact the last Roman Emperor in the West was not even killed, he was just asked to resigned, which he did, and his General asked the Eastern Emperor in Constantinople to assume the Title of Western Emperor, as far as the Germans were concerned, the further the Emperor was the better).

I go into the above so that you have a better idea of ho the Western Empire Fell. The Germans did not invade it and destroyed the Empire. While the Germans (and the Huns and the Goths and other "Barbarian invaders") did enter the Empire, very few stayed in the Empire without Imperial Permission (And the two that stayed in the Empire without Permission, the Vandals and the Goths, both quickly developed popular support among the Roman Peasants they were ruling by giving the Peasants land, something most of them had not had since the time of Hannibal). While the Vandals were the first to give the Roman Peasants land (and the last to adopt Christianity) the rest of the German Invaders quickly followed. The Eastern Emperor objected to this and Ordered a Series of invasions (which Failed till the Rule of Justinian who managed to retake Italy, Tunisian and Southern Spain). Northern Italy fell to the Lombard's within a generation of Justinian's death. The Goths retook southern Spain about the same time (but lost it within another two generations to the Invading Arabs after they took Tunisia and Egypt).

The Arabs actually conquered that part of the Roman Empire that still had large estates (or had had large estates re-established as in Tunisia). The Arabs failed in areas where Rome had small farms (for example Right is now Turkey and Greece). While the Romans had re-established large estates in Southern Italy, the Arabs could not make any headway in Italy given the opposition from the Lombard's in Northern Italy (who had given their Roman Peasants land) and from the Eastern Empire out of Greece (and even here the Romans had a hard time holding onto Sicily and Naples and that is with the post-Arab invasion NON-mercenary Thematic army of the Eastern Empire NOT the Prue-Arab Conquest mercenary Army).

My point in the above was to show that Rome did not depend on Foreign mercenaries while it was strong, but only as it decayed. The Eastern Empire survived for it least depended on foreign mercenaries. Even the Eastern Empire had to quit relying on mercenaries once a real military threat appears (the Persians and than the Arabs) and go to a Universal Service Army (One whose costs include giving those troops a say in how the economy was run, i.e. gave them land when land was the major source of wealth).

In the Western Empire the selection of going with foreign mercenaries to put down your own peasants worked for a few generation but quickly lead to peasants getting the land as the foreign mercenaries realized that they did not need the Roman Elites just the peasants to be paid (and the Peasants will gladly pay their "superiors" what the "Superiors" want provided the peasants retained most of their results of their labor). It would take several centuries to complete, but with the Lombard Invasion of 570 AD you see Western Europe slowly getting rid of its Roman Elites. Many came back for Charlemagne (c800 AD), but by the Time of the Ottos and the Formation of the Holy Roman Empire in 900 AD, the old Roman Elites were gone (With the biggest "lost" between 800 and 900 AD as Charlemagne's Empire fell and the Otto's formed the Holy Roman Empire out of its broken Pieces.

For more on Hannibal:
http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/

For more on Rome and Romania:
http://www.vic.com/~tscon/romanity/friesian/romania.htm
http://www.friesian.com/romania.htm

An outline on the History of the Roman Empire (End to early in my mind, I believe the Empire in the West died with the Lombard Invasion of 570 AD NOT the resignation of the last Western Roman Emperor in 476, but gives you an outline of Roman History from the Republic to 476AD:
http://www.forumromanum.org/history/morey29.html

For maps on Rome see:
http://www.roman-empire.net/

Here is a nice Paper on the Fall of the Roman Empire (nicer than my view that the problem was the Roman's elites failure to share the Wealth):
http://www.friesian.com/decdenc1.htm

Here is a paper on one of the Sources for information at the time of the fall of the Western Empire:
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/journals/EH/EH37/Goldberg.html

Some Information on the Holy Roman Empire (800-1806AD)
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/national/hre.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/encyclopedia/holy_roman_empire
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diamond14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
12. new D.R.A.F.T. video.... just a couple minutes long....watch it...learn !

great eye-opening video....

http://toccionline.kizash.com/films/1001/138/index.php



great web site "Enjoy the Draft".... answers all your questions about trying to slip out of the upcoming DRAFT....

http://www.enjoythedraft.com/



WAKE UP, young draftees.....when did you ever get up off the couch and PROTEST????? ....imo, most will go like sheep to the slaughter...
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