***About the religion wars at DU***

[JohnnyCougar]

The Pope business has caused alot of ruckus on here as of late, and it shouldn't. But it does, because both sides fail to make certain realizations. It seems to be dying down today, but I want to point some things out, because I feel like DU has been divided by this issue.

For those of you that want to defend the Pope
And this goes for either John Paul II or Ratzinger. Remember that the rhetoric of the heads of the Catholic church has hardly been compassionate about certain groups of people in this world. This has no bearing on your personal faith, or the religion as a whole. I know it is easy to feel personally attacked when someone criticizes the leader of something you hold very dear. But please understand that people on here are criticizing ideas put forth by these people, and not your faith itself. If they are criticizing you for your faith itself, then put them on ignore. People like that don't belong on DU. I would be willing to guaruntee you that the majority here have many great things to say about the Christian and Catholic faith. There are so many good teachings that come out of the Church, and they never seem to get appreciated.

For those of you that want to attack the Pope's ideas
Please make sure you are attacking the ideas, and not the person. I, as well as others on here, realize that the institution of the Catholic Church is not perfect, but it does teach a lot of liberal ideals to more people than any other organization in the world. When you attack the church and not the ideas that you find are wrong, you attack everyone that belongs to it. Criticize constructively. If you criticize ideas that are hurtful to you or someone else (instead of calling the new Pope a Nazi) the dialogue will be much improved. Remeber that half of Catholics in America are not Republicans. Half of the members of this church share your values. Catholics themselves are not in lockstep with the leadership on many issues, nor to they pretend to be. It doesn't hurt to be respectful when you want to voice your displeasure about an organization's policies. Catholics themselves criticize the beliefs of their leaders, yet are still able to be part of the faith community. That doesn't make them evil or biased just because they are a member of a large organization with many different facets.

I for one am a Catholic. I had a mild ammount of respect for John Paul II. Ratzinger doesn't garner much respect at all from me. But my views on things are far more complex than the balck and white idealism that has come out on this forum over this issue. No one organization is entirely evil. That statement goes for people in the heirarchy of the Catholic Church who think gays are evil, and that goes for gays and others that think the entire Catholic Church is evil. Please find some common sense and some common ground!

JohnnyCougar

[tubbacheez]

1. Great advice for just about any controversial topic.

Thanks for posting that. :)

[LSK]

2. well i support seperation of church and state

And I wonder why there are any of these threads here???

[WildEyedLiberal]

3. Because this isn't a state-sanctioned website? n/t

[MADem]

9. Some truths are just so self-evident!

And praise be that this isn't a state-sanctioned site! Can you imagine the threads? Ashcroft is a hottie! Did everyone like Laura's outfit as much as I did? How should (insert persecuted minority group here) be punished in the afterlife?

[WildEyedLiberal]

11. Hahaha

We'd all be BOTS!

Ugh. Yes, thank God that Bushjunta hasn't conquered the internets yet.

[AuntiBush]

126. Don't make me laugh. On Second Thought I need a Good One

right about now. Excellent point and good post, as well!

[haypops]

7. It's all TV's fault

Just as John Stewart described crossfire polluting politics, so too has television polluted our feelings about religion. For a few moments they convince us the Pope is all important to even non-catholics. When reality sets in, so does resentment.

[intheflow]

14. Because people don't live in a vacuum-sealed boxes.

Religion influences both Democratic and Republican parties and constituents. Ideologies/morals/ethics on both left and right are influenced by personal religious beliefs. Personal religious views shape people who work on both the right and the left.

There is no separate realm between church and state because both are populated by people who live in both communities. You can separate it civilly and legally (which I'm all for, don't want any theocracy), but it is tied to democracy on an individual basis and so has every right to be discussed on Democratic Underground.

[Cuban_Liberal]

4. Thank you.

It needed to be said.

[patrice]

5. People are mistaking their words for the things the words

are supposed to represent, or point to, from within sets of systemic hypotheses, but words should not be mistaken for the un-mediated phenomenological experience of (some) "reality" in the act of being, self or other.

[intheflow]

6. Beautifully expressed, Johnny.

It's so sad that so many people have felt so spiritually abused by Christianity that they lump everything associated with it together as one great evil. Or they have a personal vendetta against one particular religion (Catholic or otherwise) and so discount it all. Like all human institutions, religious denominations are human-created and thus imperfect. There is no reason to disrespect anyone's religious beliefs or church.

[JitterbugPerfume]

8. good post

thank you

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

10. I completely support you practicing your religion in your daily life.

I completely support it not getting on me if I don't want it on me.

[marions ghost]

37. exactly

Churches are clearly overstepping boundaries that have previously existed between church and state in this country. It is a dangerous situation and needs to be questioned, debated, addressed. A line has been breached in the minds of many. It is a sacred line, drawn by the founders of this country. Using religion as a tool for political maneuvering is reprehensible, and yet it is being done with great success. This isn't about spirituality--this is about power and control. Anger and concern is justified.

At the same time, johnnycougar is calling for a little respect and understanding for those caught in the middle--eg. Catholics who may also be Liberals and are wrestling with their own loyalties as their church becomes more conservative--not an easy tightrope to walk. A little sensitivity would go a long way. Agreed.

These visceral reactions at DU illustrate the serious threat that many people now feel about the intrusion of Christian churches into political and social spheres. This problem has reached crisis proportions. Some may run for cover, and some may confront it, but it's not going away any time soon.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

48. True

But a closer purview of the threads will indicate that sometimes that is brought on by themselves. When discussing issues such as access to birth control (leaving abortion out of it since that position is NOT ALWAYS a religious one) I think some people would like to impose their religious values on the rest of us.

When someone SHARES something with me...they have my most profound respect.

When someone IMPOSES something on me, they don't.

Forced respect isn't respect at all.

I respect your boundaries..show some respect for mine.

(btw..not you like YOU personally...the YOU was a rhetorical YOU)

[marions ghost]

114. And I am agreeing with you...totally

It IS all about boundaries. It IS all about imposing on others inappropriately. It IS all about separation of church and state issues. Maybe you misunderstood--I'm just tying it to the larger context, to underscore that "religious values" used for political gain is a serious abuse in our times and so it would naturally be fueling the fire here at DU. Conservative Christian churches of different kinds have been primary offenders, and it is impossible to discuss the problem without pointing fingers at the source. I think it is OK to question the leader of the Catholic church's record, as he wields a lot of power. I think it's very important to question ANY religious group's influence on politics.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

123. No we were agree ing

I didn't misunderstand you :D

[marions ghost]

125. OK

we can agree to agree then;-)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

127. LOL..and congrats on your first 1000 posts

in three more posts

[MoonRiver]

12. Thanks so much for that.

I am not a Catholic, and I wonder about what psychological processes a Democratic Catholic has to go through to defy his/her Pope. This has been explained to me, by DUers, as due to the idea that Catholics are not bound by dictates from the Vatican. But go tell that to the Pope! My guess is that the dissenters would be excommunicated in no time, unless they gave the Popery fat contribution in exchange. But I really DO NOT know how this religion works. It seems incredibly rigid and dogmatic, and I, again, wonder how liberals can be members. Excuse my ignorance, I am just a seeker of information.

[Cuban_Liberal]

13. Catholics have never marched in lockstep.

We are actually encouraged to question, and to decide for ourselves, based upon the dictates of our consciences. Basically, the Creed is wha the Church is about, and all the rest is commentary.

[alcuno]

15. Anyone who thinks this is bad, look at the fighting on the Catholic Forums

Threads are being closed down left and right for "lack of charity." I love Roman Catholicism, but ironically what I love about it, makes the right wing of the faith crazy. I love the questioning and the emphasis on the individual. They want the Holy Father to crack the whip and get us all to toe their rigid, unyielding line.

[Cuban_Liberal]

16. On what Catholic Forums?

Not the ones on DU.

[alcuno]

34. I didn't mean DU.

We don't have a Catholic Forum, do we?

[MoonRiver]

19. I thank you for that. There is much confusion about what constitutes

"catholicism", especially among non-Catholics! I would like to learn more.

[Cuban_Liberal]

20. Feel free to come to the Catholic and Orthodox Christian forum.

We don't bite, and we have new people coming in to learn all the time.

:hi:

[MoonRiver]

22. I will! I belong to the Unity Church, and adore it.

But I am very curious about and interested in all religions. Catholicism is one shrouded in controversy, mystery, and, imo, contradiction. I would love to learn what makes you guys tick! :pals:

[Cuban_Liberal]

25. Let me be the first to welcome you.

:pals:

[MoonRiver]

29. Thanks! I've already posted there.

So many questions.

[patrice]

26. My highschool priest who taught religion - his degree was in

Philosophy and not Theology. My husband was schooled by Jesuits.

[IronLionZion]

27. That goes for Republican Catholics too

Rick Santorum regularly defies the Pope on the poor, health care, war, death penalty,.....and he's an all around asshole.

Nobody gets excommunicated for who they vote for. And excommunication is not that terrible really. I have some excommunicated Catholics in my family. It just means you can't come to church until you confess and repent for whatever the hell you did.

more info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excommunication

[MoonRiver]

32. But if you can't confess does that mean you go to hell for your misdeeds

when you die? That sounds horrible. I don't think I would want to be part of such a mindset.

[alcuno]

If you believe that you have committed a mortal sin, you must

confess and ask for forgiveness. In your heart you must be truly sorry. If you do not believe that you have done anything so grave, then you are okay. If you believe that you have committed a mortal sin, you aren't truly sorry and you don't ask for God's forgiveness, then you are in big trouble.

[Just Me]

17. Excellent post, JohnnyCougar. Thank you so much!!!

I have nothing against "passionate views" except when they evolve into nothing other than hatred and personal destruction. If we focused more on the issues and less on the people, we'd do much better in avoiding the imposition of unnecessary pain (excepting, of course, those real evil-doers, the BFEE and NeoCON regime and corporateers - they have earned their turn in being subject to character assasination *grin*).

[Tux]

18. I'd comment

But I don't know a thing about Catholic Christianity. Evangelical Christianity iss till in season though.

[ulysses]

21. a lot of my progressive heroes are Catholics.

The Berrigans, Fr. Bourgeois of SOA Watch, etc.

Discernment is good. I respected JPII for many of his actions, lost respect for him for many more. Ratzinger is most assuredly a step backward from the mild progress his predecessor represented, but we can take him - and whatever of the hierarchy we need to - on without taking on the entirety of Catholicism, particularly given that they're very much our natural allies on many fronts.

[DanCa]

23. Which Pope

I loved Pope John Paul two, though I disagreed greatly on his approach to gays and reproductive issues and stem cell. Me and PJP2 are brother parkinson's and I do not know how he was able to say mass and lead a church with PD. My Hats off to him.
The same can be said for the late Cardinal Bernadine of Chicago. It pains me how the righties tried to ruin him because he wouldnt play political ball. My heart bleed for weeks when he passed away.
As for Cardinal George and Pope Benedict, well theres alot of anger here. Ill try to be respectful but if an occasional cheap shot flies out you got to give me a little breathing room. It's hard to be sympathetic when the US catholic Bishops are one of the biggest lobbyist groups against stem cell research and are standing in the way for a possible cure.
Have a gentle and healthy weekend

[readmoreoften]

24. Difference.

There's a difference between thinking the EVERY SINGLE CATHOLIC IS EVIL and criticizing the structure and the platforms of the church. And there is a big difference between criticizing practioners and the Pope.

I have every right in the world to say that the Pope is hatemongering against gays. He is. And that has nothing to do with being anti-catholic.

I can despise Bush but love America.
I can despise Fascist Dictators but love the countrymen who revolt against them (even if that revolt is only screaming into their pillows at night).
I can despise Falwell, but love that one darling outspoken pro-gay Southern Baptist pastor in Lousiana.
So I can despise Ratzinger AND the structure of the Catholic Church AND still love progressive Catholics.

But if you expect me to condone individuals who spout rabid anti-gay rhetoric, then you will be sorely disappointed.

[beam me up scottie]

28. Thank you.

It needed to be said.

[Cuban_Liberal]

30. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. n/t

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cuban_Liberal]

36. You must have liked my words, at least.

You used them.

[beam me up scottie]

39. Oh, were those your words?

Shit, now I'll probably have to pay a rental fee...

[Cuban_Liberal]

41. Yeah, they were

Cuban_Liberal (1000+ posts) Fri Apr-22-05 06:10 PM
Response to Original message

4. Thank you.


It needed to be said.




But you can use 'em for free...

[beam me up scottie]

47. Oh thank you so much,

I'll use them everyday.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

49. Make sure to include a footnote and a reference

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

54. I don't have a posse. I think for myself and post for myself.

[Cuban_Liberal]

55. Oh, OK.

I forgot about coincidence...

:eyes:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

60. I post on subjects that interest me. If you have a problem with that

there are many ways for you to deal with it, but conspiracy theories concerning those that disagree with you is unbecoming.

On edit: I made one simple comment on this thread since I found it ABSURD that you would claim someone copied your words...the thread starter has actually begun a nice conciliatory thread on the subject.

Out of respect for him, I will refrain posting further to you, but it's interesting how this thread could EASILY take a turn over pure crap.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[readmoreoften]

75. Could somebody please explain what is going on?

Beam said "Thanks, that needed to be said" which is a pretty prefunctory rejoinder of agreement. Is there a reason why you are taking this coincidence as a personal attack?

[beam me up scottie]

76. If you think it's the "truth"

alert the mods, if not, kindly refrain from attacking other posters.
Unfounded accusations are disruptive and petty.

[Cuban_Liberal]

77. They're not unfounded.

I have alerted previously on certain posters, and will continue to do so.

[beam me up scottie]

83. You alert on du'ers that post in similar threads ?

nt

[Cuban_Liberal]

88. No, just ones who stalk me in a group.

I'm tired of being their hobby and whipping boy.

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Taxloss]

99. I'd leave it, Scottie, this has no purpose.

Further engagement fuels further paranoia.

(PS secret meeting in 15 minutes)

[Just Me]

101. self-deleted

[Taxloss]

104. How?

Further "discussion" here serves no purpose.

[beam me up scottie]

106. am i too late?

: )

[Taxloss]

107. I think when you reach the right side of the monitor, the discussion

is over. Cool your jets.

[beam me up scottie]

120. Um,

My "jets" are my business and they've been called out.
So, no.

[Just Me]

61. Hmmm,...."posse". Why do these threads start out in decency,...

,...then, evolve into the clutches of meanness? Is there a pattern here? Are the same provocateers involved?

Just askin'

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

65. No..just paranoia

I made a smartass comment to a poster I enjoy (beam me up)..I now regret it as it has turned into a federal issue.

There was no conspiracy on anyone's part. I will testify under oath to the fact if necessary.

I think I have PM'ed the poster once or twice TOTAL in my entire posting history at DU.

[Cuban_Liberal]

67. It's not about PMs..

It's about a certain group following a poster from thread to thread like pack animals...

[Just Me]

73. I'm certain we're talking about different matters.

You're speaking to a personal, uh, conflict, it seems. I am talking about something entirely different. I keep notes on patterns that I observe. You are definitely NOT in those notes *LOL*.

[beam me up scottie]

79. You keep notes on DU'ers?

"I keep notes on patterns that I observe"

Are you kidding me?

[Just Me]

82. I keep notes on patterns I observe. Does that freak you out? *LOL*

If so, why?

[beam me up scottie]

86. No, I don't mind that you are obsessed with me.

It's actually kind of flattering (to use another of cl's "words")

[Just Me]

100. *LOL* are you kidding?

[beam me up scottie]

68. If you have a problem, tell the mods.

If not, stop insulting others. Accusations like those are a form of attack and you talk about "meanness"?
It's not up to you to decide who can and cannot post in forums.

[Cuban_Liberal]

72. Yes, I talk about meanness.

I'm also talking about a group of people who follow me from thread to thread, constantly misrepresenting what I have said, like a bunch of pack animals in attack mode. I'm sick of it, and I'm going to fight fire with fire, unless and until it stops.

[readmoreoften]

85. What is mean in someone saying "Thanks"

to another poster they agree with? It's completely normal. You might want to explain yourself openly, or just PM all your complaints to the parties you feel are offending your rights. Because I don't think anyone understands what you are getting at.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cuban_Liberal]

96. Did I include you in the group?

No, I didn't.

[beam me up scottie]

105. Sorry, but jm inferred I was part of a posse

I just thought that was related to your belief that others are stalking you.
I was kidding with you about your words and then I get insulted (not by you)
what happened?

[Cuban_Liberal]

117. I'm sorry if you thought I was including you.

It's not merely a 'belief' that I'm being stalked, however; it's been an observable pattern for a few months, by the same small group of posters.

[beam me up scottie]

124. I actually did think the op was trying to be a diplomat

I get upset when I feel I'm being told I have to watch every thing I post so as not to offend. People think I'm dissing their beliefs but I'm not, ever.
I do dis organized religion and fundies, frequently.
It's not the same thing. Really.
I'm a vegetarian, you can bash veggie heads if you want to, might make you feel better? (kidding of course)

[Just Me]

78. I prefer handling "meaness" myself,...unless it gets plainly profane,...

,...and stupid and violent. It is up to me to confront divisive posts if I choose NWS I have no power to decide who can or cannot post, OBVIOUSLY. I do have the power to confront diviseness.

Who do you assume I am "insulting"? I am not identifying anyone. Why are you being so defensive? I haven't poked you in the eye.

[beam me up scottie]

102. This is the second time that you have inferred

that I and other posters are part of a "posse".
Do you not realize that these threads are hot button issues and that many of the same posters WILL post on similar threads?
I have a thing for du'ers being told to censor their opinions so as not to offend anyone. I find it stifles discussion. So I post in threads that address that issue. So do many other du'ers but you think that this "pattern" is an indication of a posse?
And you tell me you "keep notes" on me?
I never once insulted or attacked you, I never once stalked or singled you out for abuse but yet you feel you have the right to do those things to me?
Why?
What did I do that was so grievous?
I posted my opinion as is my right.
If you do not like my opinion, say so and go on about your business like everybody else on du, don't start dogging my posts and then infer that I am part of an alleged "posse".

You keep "notes" on du'ers and you have the nerve to think I have a personal problem with you?

[Just Me]

108. Dude, ONLY YOU are reading between the lines. ONLY YOU,...

,...are creating a very long list of assumptions and, apparently, believe that you are capable of reading my mind.

ONLY YOU have "dogged" and dragged and destroyed what started out as a fruitful, uniting, inspiring thread.

ONLY YOU!!!!

ONLY YOU are expressing a "paranoia" about my keeping notes on patterns and turning into a personal thing ABOUT YOU!!!

ONLY YOU!!!

'kay?

[beam me up scottie]

116. Calm down zell!

Take notes on this:


My post to IronLionZion
"This is GD, not R&T.
And because this is a forum and not a group, criticism is not only allowed but perfectly appropriate."

A valid opinion to another valid opionion.

Your post to me:

"It's always wonderful to witness a poster avoiding acting like an ass.
Doncha' think?"

Why?
What did that have to do with my post to ILZ?
Why did you post....whatever that was?
If you want to be respected, try practicing it first.
Until you can, I'm done talking to you.

[Just Me]

119. A cooling off period is always a good thing,...in my personal experience.

Then, mutual respect is far more possible.

[beam me up scottie]

121. Agreed.

Sorry for any offense. This saps my energy and yours as well I'm sure.

[Cuban_Liberal]

84. Yes, there are provocateurs.

And I'm sick and tired of them (the group doesn't include you, FYI).

[readmoreoften]

87. Saying "Thanks" is provocative??? n/t

[Gelliebeans]

109. completely agree

:)

[readmoreoften]

112. Thanks the point got a little lost with the weird follow ups.

:)

[IronLionZion]

31. Thank you for being so sensible in GD.

For a few days there it seemed to have gone to shit.

Criticizing the specific ideas instead of the organization is an excellent policy.

And DUers would do well to remember that some of our favorite liberals are Catholic including: Kennedy, Kerry, Clark, Gavin Newsom, Kucinich, Leahy, Harkin, Durbin, Daniel Patrick Moynihan, Bob Casey Sr. and Jr., and many more.

If they have a vowell at the end of their surname they are usually Catholic.

[beam me up scottie]

35. This is GD, not R&T.

And because this is a forum and not a group, criticism is not only allowed but perfectly appropriate.

[Just Me]

38. It's always wonderful to witness a poster avoiding acting like an ass.

Doncha' think? :bounce:

[beam me up scottie]

43. Care to practice what you preach?

" If we focused more on the issues and less on the people "
blah blah blah

I suggest you focus on YOUR issues and quit trying to insult me, (you're really not that good at it anyway).

[Just Me]

51. I ALWAYS appreciate posters who avoid acting like an ass.

Hence, I do practice what I preach. Yes?

You appreciate those posters, too,...don't you?

[beam me up scottie]

58. Actually I appreciate people who can read a post.

(psst-the part in quotations is preaching part)

I'll type it again, just for you:

" If we focused more on the issues and less on the people "

Do you need some more help?

[Just Me]

66. Um,...you failed to respond to my post,...I was sticking with that.

I don't fall for bait-n-switch. Stay on topic and we'll do just fine.

BTW,...how come you assumed I was directing AT YOU? HMMMMMM.

You DO appreciate posters who avoid being an ass,...don't you? Or not?

[beam me up scottie]

111. self delete due to oversnarkiness

:evilgrin:

[readmoreoften]

40. No one is criticizing liberal Catholics.

We've been criticizing Ratzinger.

[Just Me]

44. You mean, Ratzinger's positions?

Anyway, it is important to point out that we embrace our fellow Catholic DU members who clearly share our common visions and perspectives and passions. I'm glad you did that.

[readmoreoften]

57. No. I'm criticizing Ratzinger himself.

None of this 'hate the sin/love the sinner' stuff. It's hypocritical. We *are* our ideas in action. I'm not attacking him based on aspects of his character that have no bearing on his politics. I'm criticize his ideas and the lack of character that would allow a man to hold such beliefs. I am not saying that I could not love him if, on some far away planet in another life, he and I sat down and talked and learned about one another.

But he spews hate. If we call it anything less than hate, then we are mincing words. Hate is not just an idea. Denying civil rights to an entire class of people is hateful. Especially when all they are asking for is the right to live like normal human beings. I don't deny Ratzinger a single human right.

[Just Me]

115. Well, spreading hate by labeling homosexuals "evil" rather than,...

,...homosexuality as a sin,...is completely unacceptable. Of course, I agree with your position on that. I personally don't even consider homosexuality as anything other than a normal (for those who are homosexuals) expression of that "nature".

If Ratzinger engages in that behavior, I reject it. However, the man, Ratzinger, shouldn't be persecuted/hated on one position, no more than homosexuals should persecuted/hated for being homosexual.

Really, I just do not believe the OP was about Ratzinger or JP or religion or race or sexual orientation.

The OP was about how we choose to communicate with eachother. We're going to have our differences. Their is no reason for us to become as hateful and destructive as the RW whom we complain.

That's all.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

42. I just don't understand why you give a shit if you're not a catholic.

It's not like who the pope is is going to effect your life that much. Hell, I'm a catholic, and it's not going to effect MY life that much. You're crazy if you actually thought they were going to pick a progressive for the job. The pope is a man of God, not a man of the people. He's there to be the head of the church, to interpret the bible, kind of in the same way I guess our supreme court interprets the constitution, and to be kind of a figure head for the millions of Catholics all over the world. If you're not a Catholic, or even if you are, it's not like you're going to be effected THAT much. So, please stop freaking out.
Duckie

[readmoreoften]

45. Catholics don't effect gay people or women who aren't catholic?

[Cuban_Liberal]

46. No, but voters and politicians do. n/t

[YellowRubberDuckie]

59. They do...

But a lot of the ones who mistreat others aren't true catholics. The church DOES NOT sanction mistreatment of anyone. The Catholic Church IS against Homosexual Marriage but the church is not advocating denying human rights to them. That's where those people in I believe it was Michigan who are for denying homosexuals medical care have gotten it wrong! They're making the rest of us look bad. And besides, there are a lot of Catholic Priests who are gay.
Duckie

[readmoreoften]

70. Many of the people fighting against medical care for ...

'certain conditions' are Catholic. And what part of seeing my partner in the hospital isn't about human rights?

I personally don't care if people think that they are 'real Catholics' any more than I care if they are weak or stupid or if they like sugar in their coffee. I care how they vote and how they treat me on the street.

When major religious figures (Falwell: "I'd kill a gay who looked at me" and Ratzinger: "Gays=Ideology of Evil") make these statements the less-bright members of their flocks take those ideas to the streets and they hurt people.

People are taught to 'fight evil'. It's only a matter of time before the battle gets physical.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

74. I'm sorry about them, for they are not the majority...

Most of the catholics I know are progressive and very much for human rights. The few that aren't are giving the rest of us a bad name, and that pisses me off.
Duckie

[readmoreoften]

80. I understand. I love progressive Catholics as much as any

other kind of progressive. But I cannot assume that all Catholics are progressive, even Catholic Democrats unfortunately.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

91. Duckie, I beg to differ. Three million africans have died from AIDS

and that has a GREAT deal to do with the rise of the RCC in Africa and their opposition to teaching people to use condoms in order to prevent the spread of AIDS...and ultimately epidemics DO and CAN affect everyone.

[DanCa]

81. Stem Cell Policy Too

My nine your old niece has hemophilia she can accidently cut herself and bleed to death at any time. I know Mel Gibson think's it's cool but everytime that little sweetie gets a cut it scares the heck out of me. I dont want want to reach stage five of parkinson's disease and become completely dependent on someone else if I can help it.
While this isnt a shot at you or anyone who is a liberal catholic the US Conference of catholic bishops is one of the biggest lobbying groups in congress and has a tremondous amount of power. Now while they may play mind games and refuse to confirm me because am pro choice and am for equal rights of woman and gay people they have no right to call me a baby killer for wanting to a cure for these horrible diseases.
And than they question my christianity with Justice Sunday and other events. People arent mad at or flaming liberal Christians as far as I know were just mad at having conservatives dictate to us on we live and die.As I said I love people of faith, I go to church when I can walk, andm give me your mother terressa's your cardinal bernadines and even PJP2 and day of the week over the Pope Benedict Crowd. At least you could disagree with them but at least they wouldnt insult you for it.

[readmoreoften]

89. You have my total support, DanCa.

I work part-time in a children's hospital and I would love to see these kids happy and healthy.

[DanCa]

92. Thank you readmoreoften

I must say I really like your call sign . I wish I'd thought of it. Hang in there bro feel free to pm me or im me anytime.

[readmoreoften]

110. he he. I'm a sis. ;)

:hi: welcome to DU

[Just Me]

56. I'm not Catholic,...and I do give a shit about how we communicate.

I do give a shit about how we treat one another. I do give a shit about exercising some level of respect toward one another. I do give a shit when "passions" evolve into emotional abuse.

Don't you?

The way we communicate and treat one another is the point of the OP.

[readmoreoften]

64. I care as well.

I've had my patience tested. I've been called many things and I've tried not to insult anyone or their heritage. But people have a right to heated debate and passionate opinions, so long as those opinions don't become personal attacks about people's capacity for knowledge or their physical self.

I'm not even using inflammatory words about Ratzinger by calling him a Nazi, etc. And he claims that I have 'an intrinsic tendency towards moral evil.'

Hell, he hasn't even read my posts!

[YellowRubberDuckie]

71. Are you talking as a group or as individuals?

Because I will tell you right now, I have never shit on the beliefs of anyone else. My fiancee is Agnostic, and that has no bearing on anything in our relationship. As a Catholic, I've learned to follow my own conscience and with that, I have never emotionally abused anyone. We are taught to love each other, and all people. There's something about loving a sinner, hating the sin. If you are getting emotionally abused by someone, they aren't truly a Christian nor are they a true CAtholic. Don't put us all in a box. I don't put all Democrats in a box, and I've seen several on DU who are complete retards, and yet I still love my party. Just because the leader of our church changed, doesn't mean my conscience or the way I'm going to treat you has. I'm a bit insulted with the small mindedness of people who are supposed to be liberal, openminded and progressive thinking that it's going to effect me or the people that I know for a fact would never change who they are just because the leader of the church has changed and may have a different skew on life.
I'm sorry if I made you think I don't give a shit about you or communicating with you. But as I said above, I will never emotionally abuse anyone.
Duckie

[Just Me]

97. Both. I give a shit about DU. I give a shit about you, too.

I never said you didn't give a shit about me or that you've personally engaged in emotional abuse. I was responding to your post,...that' all. Please, don't be angry at or offended by me for stating that I do give a shit,...about all of us.

Hey, we all have our unique "skews" on life. What's important is that we cling to what we have in common, which is a LOT,...and that we restrain projecting our pain by at least recognizing that our passions are driven by personal pain and taking responsibility for that.

We're really an incredibly close internet group,...FREE to BE ourselves,...unlike the very "screened" selves we MUST be in real day-to-day living,...unlike that extremely tight box presented by conservative sites. None of us should take that kind of freedom for granted. All of us should be appreciative and intentionally respect one another. Doncha' think?

:shrug:

[Taxloss]

94. Well, the leader of 1.1billion people is telling them I'm evil.

And I'm not gay or a woman, I'm just an atheist. Yes, that affects me. The catholics I deal with day-to-day might not share that belief, but surely they have a responsibility to transmit that dysfunction to their hierarchy.

[mondo joe]

95. And if you're not American why would you care who is President?

Right?

[Taxloss]

52. I have no respect for Ratzinger.

True, I've never met the man.

But he wrote that I'm evil and selfish.

And he's never met me.

[Disturbed]

98. Homosexual Marriage is an evil ideology.

Didn't the recently deceased Pope say that?

If so, does that not effect Catholics and non-Catholics?

[Taxloss]

103. He did say that.

But Ratzi considers me evil because I'm an atheist. Other faiths, and other flavours of Christianity, he just thinks they're wrong and bad; me, I'm personally evil.

[Disturbed]

113. The Vatican is a RW Corporate State.

This Corp. has an effect upon millions of people. This is why many of us are real concerned about what this Corp. says and does.

[Rhiannon12866]

118. Beautifully stated. And I agree.

While I also differed with John Paul II on social issues, I had a great deal of personal respect for the man and defended him here on DU. He showed a great deal of courage, as a very young man, opposing the Nazis and was instrumental in eradicating Communism from Eastern Europe. For these things alone, he deserves to be remembered and admired greatly. And he also reached out to other religions and nations and was just a person of great personal charm.:-)

As for Ratzinger, I also feel as you do. I was disappointed by the choice. I haven't said very much about him and doubt I will. He just doesn't give me anything to work with.:shrug:

[hue]

122. These are good points yet something is missing...

The feminine voice. There is no feminine voice in the Catholic church and so no matter how much respect we should all have for each other's views perhaps it is time to realize that a woman's view is not included in the Catholic church. That means there are no women leaders or possibility of leadership. There are no women in any rank therein. The current pope does not even want women to read in the church.
Yes Mary is venerated--as a silent, sexless image. What words of Mary do we quote or remember??? The truth is even Mary has NO VOICE. Perhaps that's WHY she is deemed sacred. The Mother who never talked back, never even talked!
So in my opinion, there is something evil in the Catholic church. It is the something that is missing. The good, true, honest, loving voices of women. And the subsequent black hole that should be the feminine voice is real evil. I say lets face reality and have some common ground by giving half of it's members a voice.
(And yes I was born and raised a Catholic girl/woman.)

[Moderator]

128. Locking.

Whoa...way too many personal attacks here to be considered a discussion.

Thanks for your consideration.
DU Mod