Frist's buddy calls Roman Catholic Church a "false church"

[jefferson_dem]

And Salazar calls him on it! Rock on Sen. Salazar. :spank:

*********

<SNIP>

Salazar responded Thursday with a terse letter to Dobson. In it, he defended Senate colleagues of various faiths, and he called on Dobson to repudiate a Focus board member who once referred to Catholicism as "a false church."

The board member, R. Albert Mohler Jr., said Thursday he stands by the comments he made in March 2000 on the cable news show Larry King Live.

"I believe that the Roman church is a false church and it teaches a false gospel," Mohler said at the time. "And indeed, I believe that the pope himself holds a false and unbiblical office."

Mohler, president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminar in Louisville, Ky., said he was shocked by Salazar's letter to Dobson.

<SNIP>

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/state/article/0,1299,DRMN_21_3720500,00.html

"heads up" courtesy of http://www.dailykos.com/

[LittleClarkie]

1. That is an uneasy alliance

the Evangelicals do not consider the Catholic Church to be legitimate in alot of cases. I've known people who were actively trying to "save" people FROM the Catholic faith, which they considered idolotry.

I can't see the two getting along for long.

[CatholicEdHead]

3. It will hold as long as abortion and gay marriage

stay at the forefront. Besides that they diverge quickly.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

97. And the Pope and Catholics view protestants as "deficient" sinners

This oughta be good

[swag]

2. heh heh heh

[HockeyMom]

4. Exploited Catholics for the anti abortion, anti gay vote

Once accomplished, bye bye.

[Zynx]

5. Another statement we need to keep to hang on Frist

[K-W]

8. I really dont see any scandal here.

Protestants think they are theologically correct just like all religions.

[Zynx]

34. Yeah, but Bush actually won the Catholic vote

[K-W]

40. Once again, this is not about tolerance or like/dislike

this is about theological differences.

[K-W]

6. Pretty much all protestants think the Roman Catholic Church is false.

thats kinda the point of protestantism.

If they didnt think the church was false, they would be Catholics.

[Kathryn7]

7. That is what "Protestant" means.

[Princess Turandot]

19. I think this is more along the lines of the Bob Jones University

view of Catholicism, not theological differences between Catholics and Methodists. This is the Pope as the anti-Christ, false idols & pseudo-devil worshipper stuff.

Larry King does love these people. Dobson, Franklin Graham and Bob Jones III are frequently on his show. I don't recall seeing too many clerics of mainstream religions of any type on his show.

[K-W]

30. This is really just basic theology, not everyone can be right.

The catholic church and all protestent church's hold completely incompatible theological views.

[LostinVA]

50. Could you quote me the incompatible views?

Because I've studied alot of theology, including having a minor in comparative religion, and have taught CCD, and there's not much that's that different. The theology is the same, although some of the dogma may be different. And, it is the theology that counts, not the dogma. Ask any honest priest.

[K-W]

55. Is catholic dogma the will of god, yes or no.

That is where the main difference of opinion occurs.

[LostinVA]

61. You are trying to make something complex something simple

I'm not playing your games. You are making sweeping generalities without backing them up. I agree with a poster down thread -- I'm waiting to hear from the ministers and priests on this board -- there are quite a few here.

[K-W]

65. Hardly.

Im sorry that you think discussion is a game.
I have made NO generalities.
I have repeatedly backed up my argument.

And if you would rather have some authority figure tell you what to think than to think for yourself, fine, go ahead.

[LostinVA]

68. But to make you happy, the answer is yes and no

"Dogma" can be the will of God, but can also be the will of Man. Which is why I told you in another post to talk to an honest priest. An honest priest will tell you that Catholics are allowed to ignore dogma if it's a matter of consciences. I do know that dogma originally meant the "truths" as manifested through the words of Jesus and the Apostles via the Bible. Which is actually a really Protestant viewpoint.

I think the Catholic Encyclopedia is on line, btw.

[K-W]

70. "Which is actually a really Protestant viewpoint."

Indeed.

[LostinVA]

75. Yeah, "indeed" is right. They share more tenets of FAITH then

don't share.

[K-W]

77. Um, no, Catholics do not share the belief that the pope is wrong.

They in fact think he is right, oddly enough.

Only protestants believe that catholic dogma is just human theological interpretation, and false interpretation at that. Catholics believe it to be devine law.

[Princess Turandot]

103. Nope..

you need to do some reading on the Doctrine of Infallibility of the Pope. It has been invoked TWICE in the last 200 years. That is the only time when Catholics believe that God is speaking through a Pope.

Otherwise, the Pope is the leader of a religion. He makes a variety of decisions as Pope, which may include theological interpretation, although that's rarely done in a vacuum, and is usually researched by priests other than the Pope. So do the heads of many faiths, or congregations which have leaders.

[K-W]

104. This is not about infallibility,

and that is not the only time that the catholics believe the pope is the authority on god.

The pope is the king, in a sense, the pope is the top authority in the faith, catholicism is not democratic. Catholics dont get to decide for themselves, they do, especially in the US, but they arent supposed to.

The church obviously lets alot of stuff fly, they dont have a choice, but in the end, the popes word is religious law because only he can determine god's will. To believe otherwise is to be a protestant. A protestant either believes the authority of the church is false, or that the people in the church at the moment, are posers (as martin luther did), but if a protestant did not think that the catholic church was false, than he/she would have to affirm the catholic claim to religious supremecy, and they simply dont.

[MollyStark]

86. Which Catholic Dogma?

RCC, Melkite, Greek..... ?

[atreides1]

21. Protestanism

"...a general grouping of denominations within Christianity. It generally refers to those that separated from the Roman Catholic
Church in the Reformation of the 16th century, their offshoots, and those that share similar doctrines or ideologies."

[K-W]

32. That is what protestants are, not the root of the word. EOM

[scarletlib]

9. well the mainstream protestant churches and the

roman catholics had pretty much recognized the validity of each other's expressions of faith. however, the out of the mainstream evangelicals never have.

[K-W]

12. No they havent, it would be impossible to do so.

For the catholic church to recognize the validity of protestantism would mean aknowledging that all catholic dogma and the papacy are wrong.

And for protestants to recognize the validity of catholicism would mean them rejoining the catholic church.

Either Pope Benedict is the leader of God's flock or he isnt. It cant both be true and not be true.

[LostinVA]

25. Of course they have

I taught CCD for many years, and worked closely with priests, and not once did either the teaching materials nor the clergy ever say Protestantism wasn't a valid form of religious expression. My diocese (Greensboro, NC, then) went out of it's way to have many ecumenical services. It was more of the RC believing they were right, and everyone else was well-intended but mixed up. I really don't think this is the same as invalidating a whole belief system.

[K-W]

29. Whether it is false on purpose or false from a mix up.

Isnt the issue.

Catholics do in fact think protestents are wrong, even if you missed that fact teaching CCD.

[LostinVA]

53. Excuse me? Who do you think you're talking to?

I did NOT miss that fact when I was teaching CCD, or when I was taking comparative religion classes, or when I talked to Marist, Paulist, and Jesuit priests about this very thing. Just saying you're right over and over again does not make you right.

Bah! Forget it. I'm not in the mood to deal with a contrarian this evening.

[K-W]

58. Someone who said something that was wrong.

I am not a contrarian.

The catholic church claims its leaders have the ability to determine the will of God. Protestant churche's do not agree. Thus they believe the catholic church is FALSE.

I am saying I am right because I am right and nobody, including you, has shown how a protestant, someone who by definition does not believe the catholic church knows the will of god, is out of line by saying it is a false church.

[LostinVA]

78. They DON'T say it's a false church. That's the point

Non-Evangelicals do not say that.

And, you're not calling me wrong, you're calling a bunch of priests and whomever writes the CCD books wrong.

Differences do not equal invalidating.

And yeah, you are a contrarian, because you have not given one piece of proof that Protestants believe that.

And, if you think I'm not answering you after this, it's because I'm putting you on "Ignore." I'd like to read what other people think.

[K-W]

80. I have given you proof, you ignore it.

Protestants obviously think the catholic church is false, because they dont agree with the fundemental tenet of the church, that it is the one true church of god, and that its popes and clergy hold special devine positions.

[CatholicEdHead]

52. I remember that in the 1980's

that ALL the churches in town (Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, etc...) had a Good Friday walk with a prayer service in each house of worship with a walk of the cross.

That started to unravel in the 1990's and it was the new extreme traditionalist Catholic Priest who was the first to pull out. This year there were only 2 churches left in town that did it. The Baptist one (who are in an former Catholic Church of all places now) and I think the Missouri Synd Lutheran church.

The walls are going back up everywhere between the different Christian sects.

[MollyStark]

88. More untruths

"and for protestants to recognize the validity of catholicism would mean them rejoining the catholic church."

Not likely, we allow that Catholics are going to heaven...but RCC service music sucks. ;)

[K-W]

90. This has nothing to do with who goes to heaven.

One can believe that those who choose the wrong church can go to heaven without endorsing the beliefs of others as true.

But you are simply dead wrong if you think that the catholic church doesnt consider itself the only true church and you are dead wrong if you think that protestants dont disagree and believe that he catholic church is not in fact the only true church.

[LostinVA]

99. Haha! Gotta agree on you with that, Molly

Unless there's a choir, then it's great.

[scarletlib]

110. I am a roman catholic and a convert to the church

the church has for many years (unless this is changing under the new pope) recognized the valididty of the expressions of christianity of various protestant churches. The RC's many many years ago considered protestants to be heretics. Not any more and not for many many years.

The baptisms of Protestant Churches are recognized by the Roman Catholic Church as valid. If you are a baptised Protestant of any denomination and you convert to Catholicism the Church does not re-baptize you. That baptism is valid. All you do to become a Catholic is go through the required studies, and make a confession of faith at the Rite of Initiation.

If you will note I did not say that 100% agreement was required on all issues. Only that the mainline protestant churches: Episcopalian, Lutheran, Methodist, etc. and the Roman Catholics many years ago in the 60's agreed to acknowledge the validity of one anothers expressions of faith. THere are still theological differences between the churches obviously. This all occurred in the spirit of Ecumenism.

I was very active in the Roman Catholic Church up until a few years ago. Believe me when I tell you that the Church does accept the baptism of protestants as valid and that the church does consider these to be valid expressions of one's faith. Of course, Catholics believe, just like others of different faiths, that ours is the best practice and expression of the faith.

[jefferson_dem]

11. Disagree. One can be a bible-thumping protestant yet not leap to

total extreme of calling all non bible-thumping faiths "false." Please.

I am curious if Catholics see this is as a non-story, especially in light of the Christian lovefest that surrounded the passing of the Pope.

[K-W]

13. No one cannot do so, they cant both be right.

If protestants thought the Catholic church was legit it would mean they were going to hell for defying it.

[jefferson_dem]

23. dupe. please ignore.

[jefferson_dem]

26. I think you should distinguish between evangelical fundies who are

stridently narrow in their belief system as you suggest and other more mainline Protestant believers who don't necessarily subscribe to such exclusivism.

[K-W]

35. But no destinction is neccessary.

If the Catholic church, its heirarchy and its dogma are in fact, as the catholics claim, the will of god, protestants are wrong and vice versa.

This is why there are protestants and not just a whole lot more catholics.

[LostinVA]

28. I swear I'm not baiting you, but where are you getting this information?

But where are you getting the information that they both think they're false? As I've stated in other posts, this may be true of Evangelicals, but that's about it. You may have some crazy rabid RCs around saying that, too (and Ratzinger is anti-ecumenical), but in all my time as an RC I NEVER heard either clergy or lay person say this, and I've never heard one non-Evangelical say this about Catholics. We would all joke with one another, but that's' it.

And, for the record, I've heard Evangelicals call everyone but THEM false: Methodists, Presbyterians, etc.

[K-W]

37. Basic logic.

Catholics believe that they are right, that thier dogma is gods will, and that thier leaders are endorsed by god.
Protestants believe that catholics are wrong and catholic dogma and the pope are not gods will.

Do you disagree with that?

[LostinVA]

49. Yes, I do. This is NOT what anyone teaches

You may have some individuals who spout this stuff, but that's about it. Different beliefs do not invalidate someone else's beliefs. I have said in about 10 posts that I KNOW THIS TO BE TRUE. As I've said before, call up some priests and non-Evangelical clergy -- they'll disagree with you. Non-Orthodox rabbis will, too.

Jesuits are very hard-lined, and the leader of the Jesuits is called "The Black Poe," and they believe that belief in God and good works leads to heaven, as basically do all of the non-"born again" churches. These are the core beliefs of Christianity, everything else is window dressing. Many Catholic and non-Catholic theologians preach this. But, you just seem to want to argue for some reason, even when those of us who know are telling you you're mistaken.

The ONLY people I have ever had say this to me ARE FUNDAMENTALISTS. That's it. So...

[K-W]

59. Just becuase people dont say it, doesnt mean it isnt thier belief.

Being a catholic means believing catholic dogma, dogma rejected by protestants.

This is so simple, I am amazed and confused at the responses I am getting.

It is great that the catholic and protestant churches are more tolerant, and willing to find common ground, but the day protestants believe the catholic church is legit, is the day protestantism no longer exists.

[MollyStark]

81. What Protestant Church are you talking about?

I don't think either Protestant or Catholics are going to recognize you as an authority on this topic.
So far you have misinterpreted my religion over and over.

[K-W]

83. All of them.

And no, I havent misrepresented anyone.

Find me the protestant church that believes the Catholic pope is the final say on issues of faith.

[jefferson_dem]

94. Everyday i relate with non-Catholics (some of them devaout Protestants)

who do, in fact, believe that the Pope is "the final say on issues of faith" for some Catholics. They would not refer to the Catholic faith as a "false" one. What do you think of that? Are they not being "proper, right thinking" Protestants? To make such a claim would swerve awfully close to camaraderie with those who will be gathering to celebrate "Justice Sunday."

[K-W]

95. So they wouldnt use the word false. How does that relate to this?

Im glad so many people are religiously tolerant and tactful. But that doesnt change the fact that the two theologies are incompatible, if one is right the other is wrong, or false.

[jefferson_dem]

101. They wouldn't use that word and don't believe it to be so.

Some of them are devout, bible-believing Christians. Apparently, not all see the world in the simple dichotomous frame that you present.

And that gets us back on the primary topic of this thread...what are the prevailing worldviews in American society / politics today and how are they expressed?

[Bridget Burke]

15. Some Protestants get along fine with Catholics.

The Dominionists, however, spring from a weird variant Calvinism that is thoroughly anti-Catholic. Down with Popery!

Let's encourage these guys to speak out. Any Catholics who've gone along with them over abortion need to realize the truth about their temporary allies.

[K-W]

16. This has nothing to do with getting along. It has to do with dogma.

And whether or not catholic dogma is the will of god or not.

If you are a protestant, you believe that Catholic dogma is the product of a corrupt human institution.

If you are a catholic you believe that Catholic dogma is the will of god.

They can get along just fine, but their beliefs are mutually exclusive.

[Bridget Burke]

36. Yes, but most Protestants don't get apoplectic about it!

Obviously, they go to the Church that reflects their beliefs. It's called voting with your feet.

[K-W]

41. I never said they did.

Simply that by being a protestant, you have to believe that the catholic church is not what it claims to be.

[Bridget Burke]

43. You speak for ALL protestants?

Wouldn't that make you the Protestant Pope?

[K-W]

46. I have not spoken for anyone but myself, leave the strawman at home. EOM

[MollyStark]

112. Catholics go along with Catholics on abortion

Don't make pro-life a Protestant creation. The whole movement started in the Catholic church.
In addition it is not 1829 anymore. No protestant I know says Down with Popery.

[sandnsea]

17. Pretty much, that's wrong

Protestants do not think the Catholic Church is false, just not right on all issues. These fundamentalist nutballs think the Catholic Church is the whore of babylon. Big difference.

[K-W]

18. No, it is entirely right.

Protestants sure do think the Catholic Church is false, if they didnt, they would be catholics.

The defining belief of protestantism is that the catholic church isnt god's church.

[Princess Turandot]

22. I think we need the ministers on the board to weigh in on this..

since we have a few.

[LostinVA]

31. No, Sandnsea is right

They disagree with one another, but they do NOT claim they are false. You need to call up and talk with some RC and non-Evangelical clergy.

[K-W]

33. No, sorry, Sandnsea is not right.

One can believe that both the Catholic and protestant churches are legitimate about as much as one can believe that it is both raining and not raining at the same time.

[sandnsea]

63. The Catholic Church does

And I've never ever had a Lutheran tell me that the Catholic Church is a false church. Only that there were disagreements in doctrine, minor at that. I have never had a Lutheran tell me that the Catholic Church was the whore of babylon.

I have, on the other hand, had extremist Baptist based churches tell me that. And they're the only ones who ever have.

[K-W]

67. Minor disagreement on doctrine?

Are you honestly arguing that whether or not the Catholic Pope is God's mouthpiece is a minor disagreement on doctrine?

[LostinVA]

71. No, I never said that

Every religion/denomination thinks they have the market on who is or isn't God's mouthpiece.

Look, you certainly think you're right,a nd I think you are wrong, and I've had a hard day at work and am not arguing with you anymore. I going to go watch the Spongebob movie. I don't know if you're anti-Catholic, anti-Protestant, or what, and frankly I no longer care. I let someone else carry this on if they want to.

[K-W]

72. I wasnt responding to you.

I was responding to Sandnsea who did say that.

And yes, every religion does believe they are right, and by simple logic that means they believe the other religions are false. Thanks for proving my point.

[sandnsea]

73. Yeah, I am

Because the Lutheran Church claims apostolic succession as well. What they don't believe is infallibility. In the scheme of things, that's pretty minor because most of what the Church has actually claimed as infallible, isn't in dispute. The Pope is NOT God's mouthpiece. The Pope is the head of the Church and teaches. Infallible teaching is incredibly rare.

[K-W]

82. Well, then your defintion of minor defies my understanding.

Disagreeing on who has the right to determine the will of God doesnt qualify as minor in any way that I can think of.

[sandnsea]

91. Really, just wow

Where did you ever get the idea that Catholics believe the Pope determines the will of God???

[K-W]

93. sandnsea, catholics DO believe the pope is the authority on gods will

It is kinda the foundation of thier entire church.

The catholic church is authoritarian, not democratic.

[sandnsea]

96. Define God's will

Define dogma. You need to give some very specific examples. Otherwise this is pointless.

Do you think the Pope opens his mouth and Catholics believe God's divine law comes out?

[K-W]

100. I use the standard dictionary definitions.

I didnt say catholics conformed perfectly to the church.

The fact of the matter is that the Church does claim that it, and it alone, is capable of determining God's will on earth.

[sandnsea]

102. You've been misinformed

The Church only claims to have perfect knowledge over the very minute doctrine on Christ and Salvation. Nothing else. Do you think because the Pope opposed the Iraq war he was saying it wasn't God's will?

[K-W]

105. You are arguing against a strawman.

I never claimed that the church called itself an authority over everything. Where did you come up with that?

As you have now just admitted, the church does claim to have perfect(in a sense) knowledge over the doctrine of christ and salvation, aka Christianity. A protestent by definition thinks that claim to be false.

[sandnsea]

106. God's will

You won't answer what God's will means to you. Then when I give you an example, you call it a strawman and say you never said that. It's difficult to have a debate with someone who won't say what they mean.

Thinking that a portion of a church's teachng is false, does not make the entire Catholic Church false. That is just wrong and traditional Protestant religions do not think that. That is a fundamentalist attack.

The Church only claims to have authority on basic salvation through Christ. Not a complete knowledge or even the only path.

"there is full and complete revelation of the salvific mystery of God in Jesus Christ, even though understanding that the infinite mystery can always be examined and studied more profoundly in light of the Spirit of truth that guides us "into all truth"

It is true that non-Christians, and this was recalled by Vatican Council II, can "gain" eternal life "under the influence of grace," if "they seek God with a sincere heart"

http://www.zenit.org/english/archive/0001/ZE000130.html

[mitchum]

48. No, K-W is right

it's the reason for the schism.
It's certainly not worth killing one another over, but that never stopped either side.

[Bridget Burke]

39. What denomination do you belong to?

All Protestants do NOT believe the same thing. That's another Protestant thing.

[K-W]

42. That obviously is irrelevant to this discussion. EOM

[Bridget Burke]

45. No, it's quite relevant.

Other Protestants here do not agree with you.

[K-W]

47. No it is not relevant. It is in fact offensive of you to ask.

As if my belief system would change the merits of my argument.

[jefferson_dem]

51. K-W, i appreciate your perspective on this issue.

Can we simply stipulate that you believe these two Christian faith systems to be mutually exclusive, and that a religious leader pointing out such exclusivity is a "non story", and move back on point of this thread? Thanks.

[LostinVA]

20. Not true

I was raised Catholic, but went to a Methodist college, and have a whole raft of Protestant relatives, and my friends have also been from many different backgrounds. Of all of the Protestants I've known well enough to talk to about religion, only the Baptists and Evangelicals have considered Catholicism "false," The rest just didn't agree with the doctrine. Calling another person's religion false is nasty.

There is a huge difference between disagreeing and denying.

[K-W]

27. Has anyone here heard of the reformation?

Protestantism is defined by the belief that the Catholic Church is not legitimate.

[LostinVA]

38. Yes, and I've also heard about the fact that women are born without souls

Guess what? Beliefs and opinions can change.

And, the Reformation wasn't so much that the whole belief system of the Church wasn't legitimate, but that certain practices were, specially the selling of indulgences. And Luther was correct about that -- this was NOT doctrinal or dogmatic. The Church hasn';t done that for a long time.

Let me state this again: I was raised RC, have a friend who is a Jesuit, taught CCD for a little over six years, and have about a zillion Irish and Sicilian RC Catholics: NOT ONCE have I ever heard any of them say a Protestant's (even whackjob Fundies) belief wasn't valid. Actually, that goes against Church teachings.

[K-W]

44. If opinions changed, there would be no protestants, they would be catholic

The catholic church cant be both legit and illegit at the same time.

Either the catholic church is God's church, or it isnt. Protestants OBVIOUSLY dont think it is.

[LostinVA]

56. They OBVIOUSLY do think it's a church OF God

And that's the point. Protestants do not think Catholics are not going to heaven and vice versa.

[K-W]

64. Right, a false church worshipping the right God, that is exactly right.

They believe catholics have the right god, but that their belief in Catholic dogma and thier belief that the catholic clergy have special access to god's will is FALSE.

[sandnsea]

69. Study Luther some more

He never remotely intended to break apart from the Catholic Church. He just wanted reform IN the Church. You don't want reform IN a Church if you think the entire Church is false.

I don't know where you go to church, but you might want to reconsider since apparently they're teaching you complete crap. Some of these churches are even starting to call the Lutheran church false because it won't condemn the Catholic Church.

Good grief.

[K-W]

76. Why would you reform something that wasnt wrong?

Luther thought that the Catholic church was the one true church, but that human beings corrupted it, turning it into a false church and that reform was neccessary to make it once again the legitimate church of god.

[sandnsea]

89. Wow,

That's all I can say. Pretty extreme view. I think it's occured to most religious people by now that people may be wrong. Which is why most religious people don't say this or that church is a false church anymore.

[K-W]

98. My view is fact based. I dont consider that extreme.

You are simply massively mistaken and do not realize that the catholic church does in fact claim to have a monopoly on god.

[LostinVA]

79. Thank you, Sandnsea.. I was feeling alone in the wilderness

It's the first time I've ever hit the "Ignore" button on anyone. There are enough rifts as there is, without people seeing some where there are none. The Reformation was very complex and about more than a Bible and indulgences.

[K-W]

85. I never said it wasnt complex.

You assumed that, please do ignore me if you are going to lie about me.

[MollyStark]

84. "f they didnt think the church was false, they would be Catholics."

That is not true.

[K-W]

87. Actually, yes it is.

If you think the Catholic church is not false, than you must agree that it is the only legitimate church, because that is what they believe to be the case.

[MollyStark]

111. Sorry no

Nice try but I prefer to think for myself. You are simply wrong.

[mitchum]

10. Kick for anti-ecumenism

Every time the various xtian sects get together, it seems that their common point is ganging up on we heathens. So, I'm all for them being at one another's throats.

[LostinVA]

57. I'm a Pagan and I really disagree with that

All that does is make things worse.

[mitchum]

62. Nah, I f they're fighting over who's loving God and Jaysus more...

they'll forget about us.

[applegrove]

14. Let the Tribal Games Begin!! n/t

[Coastie for Truth]

24. They're all false - only Moishe the Street Sweeper Has It Right

Moishe and the Pope

About a century or two ago, the Pope decided that all the Jewish people had to leave Rome. Naturally, there was a big uproar from the Jewish community.

So, the Pope made a deal. He would have a religious debate with a member of the Jewish community. If the representative won, the Jews could stay. If the Pope won, the Jews would leave. The Jews realized that they had no choice. They looked around for a champion who could defend their faith, but no one wanted to volunteer. It was too risky. So, in desperation, they finally picked an old man named Moishe, who spent his life sweeping up after people, to represent them. Being old and poor, he had less to lose, so he agreed. He asked only for one condition to the debate. Not being used to saying very much as he cleaned up around the settlement, he asked that neither side be allowed to talk. The Pope agreed.

The day of the great debate came. Moishe and the Pope sat opposite each other for a full minute before the Pope raised his hand and showed three fingers. Moishe looked back at him and raised his index finger. The Pope waved his hand in a circle around his head. Moishe pointed to the ground where he sat. The Pope pulled out a communion wafer and a glass of wine. Moishe pulled out an apple.

The Pope stood up and announced, "I give up. This man is too good. The Jews may stay.'

An hour later, the cardinals were all around the Pope asking him what happened. The Pope said, "First, I held up three fingers to represent the Trinity. He responded by holding up one finger to remind me that there was still one God common to both our religions. Then, I waved my hand around me to show him that God above was all around us. He responded by pointing to the ground, showing that God was also right here with us, in our midst. I offered the wine and the wafer to show that God absolves us from our sins. He pulled out an apple to remind me of original sin. He had an answer for everything. What could I do?"

Meanwhile, the Jewish community had crowded around Moishe, amazed that this old, somewhat feeble man had done what all their scholars had insisted was impossible! "What happened?", they asked. "Well," said Moishe, "first he said to me that the Jews had three days to get out of the city. I told him that not one of us was leaving. Then, he told me that this whole city must be cleared of Jews! I let him know that we were staying right here." "And then?" asked a woman. "I really don't know," said Moishe. "He took out his lunch, so I took out mine."

http://www.scripting.com/98/04/stories/moisheAndThePope.html

[leesa]

54. Excellent! The war between the Fundies and the Catholics heats up.

Whose butts will BushCo decide to kiss??

[alcuno]

60. Our new Holy Father would say they are from a Christian sect.

I'm a Catholic and I welcome a Holy War. The alliance between fundies and Catholics is creepy.

[LostinVA]

74. I agree -- I was raised Catholic

and was told to my face many times I was an idol worshiper, the Pope was the Antichrist, etc. Creepy is the right word for it.

[sandnsea]

66. Been waiting for it

Knew they couldn't keep the front up forever.

[madfloridian]

92. I taught Frist's buddy.

What a sweet little boy he was! What a pious hypocrite he is now. He had a nice family, just lovely people. Then came the hijacking of our Southern Baptists, and little Al got caught in the middle.

[meow2u3]

107. Calling all Catholics: DO NOT VOTE REPUBLICAN--and here's why

The Republicans of today align themselves with fundamentalists who not only want to make some variation of Protestant fundamentalism the official state religion, but they also want to outlaw the Catholic Church, arrest us, and try us for heresy. That's their ultimate goal!!! :scared:

I see right through the fake Christian rhetoric and know exactly what the hell the Christianist terrorists are up to...

[arwalden]

115. It's All Very Much Like What You Would Expect From "Landover Baptist"

www.landoverbaptist.org

[Quixote1818]

108. Dem's need to take advantage of this in the next elections

A commercial that brings up what Dobson said and connects it to the Religious Right would really hurt Republicans who have aligned themselves with the Religious Right.

[MADem]

113. Which is precisely why the GOP is BEGGING Frist to

...back away from that Bloody Justice Sunday thing. The commercial makes itself--a few snips of hate from Dobson, a pic of Frist and Dobson at that event, and Bob's yer uncle!

[ruggerson]

109. Why is James Dobson given a platform to speak by the networks

in this country?

DO they give people who hate Jews a platform? Do they give people who hate blacks a platform?

Why are James Dobson's hateful views given such wide audience on the public airwaves?

[GOPBasher]

114. That's not surprising at all. The fundamentalist Protestants that

control the Christian Right hate Catholics with a passion. That's why it makes me sick to my stomach when the majority of church-going Catholics vote Republican. (Catholics are about evenly split, but the ones who go to church regularly are majority Republican.)