If it is right to call Pope Benedict a Nazi

[LittleClarkie]

then does that make it alright for the other side to bring up Sen. Byrd's former affiliations with the KKK.

Which leads me into another question for some bizarre reason.

Do we discredit ourselves, given all the things that ARE wrong with the Bush Admin, by going too far, with some of the conspiracy theories that show up here from time to time?

I fear that, for some of us at least, the criticism that we will immediately look for something to be wrong with any conservative might be true.

It just seems like perhaps the rhetoric needs to be reeled in a bit.

What say you.

(To put myself in context, I work for a Catholic church bulletin printing place, and we are in the middle of Pope Hell Week. This guy better stick around for a while, that's all I gotta say. So if I'm a bit "grumpy" today, that's why. I am NOT Catholic, btw. I just work here.)

[juryrigged]

1. Point: Bringing up Byrds association with the KKK is not going to change

anybody's vote for or against him; whereas calling MY Pope a Nazi could!

[LittleClarkie]

3. Realize that this is not the Democratic Party

and this isn't even how most Democrats feel. We're a bit far to the left here. And I fear those calling the Pope a Nazi are behaving like Lefty Freepers.

I do think it's a vocal minority. I hope you will take that into consideration before you change your vote.

Don't forget, our former candidate, a Catholic, likely feels as you do.

[RetroLounge]

4. Yeah, right.

:eyes:

RL

[ComerPerro]

8. Bullshit it wouldn't

Byrd is getting called a Klan member still on RW radio, all the time.

And if you will start supporting Bush just because you are upset that people don't like the new Pope, you were never much of a liberal to begin with.

[AndyTiedye]

15. If He Is YOUR Pope, Please Ask Him To Stop Stumping for the Republicans

[juryrigged]

29. He is NOT stumping for the Republicans: he is stumping for 2,000

years of conservative Catholic beliefs. That is what Popes do. They do not remake the Church, they pursue what the Church is suppose to be despite the ups and downs of their followers.

The Catholic church has gone through many periods when they alienated a large segment of Catholics that went their own way for whatever reason then returned.

The Church does not CHANGE FOR them, they MUST CHANGE for the Church or not be Catholic.

[11 Bravo]

55. Welcome to DU!

Pope threads have resulted in quite a bit of back and forth flaming recently. Things will settle down soon.

[TahitiNut]

62. Funny thing that.

In his zeal to 'protect the faith,' Ratzinger urged American bishops to excommunicate Kerry, not because Kerry himself either performed an abortion or paid for an abortion, but because Kerry supports a law that leaves such decisions to the conscience of the individual - whether or not that individual woman is a Roman Catholic or not!! I guess the Catholic Church has given up completely on individual conscience? I guess the Catholic Church thinks it can impose its laws on non-Catholics??

But Ratzinger's zeal conveniently didn't extend to excommunicating the Catholic generals, chaplains, and soldiers engaged in an illegal war of invasion, occupation, and killing of innocents - a war that was condemned (with lip service only) by John Paul II. Furthermore, Ratzinger's zeal conveniently hasn't extended to those Governors who give their imprimatur to capital punishment - another practice the Catholic Church claims it's opposed to.

Ratzinger practices convenient "theology" - ignoring those directly involved in going against Church doctrine and opposing those not directly involved.

Ratzinger's a fascist.

[gollygee]

93. His zeal also didn't extend

to excommunicating priests who molested children. Just pro-choice politicians. Funny.

[Gelliebeans]

145. great post n/t

[mitchum]

144. And it's a pretty ignoble 2000 year history

Why would anyone want to defend all of that death, chicanery, and mendacity?

[DoYouEverWonder]

150. Can you show me where in the bible

or anywhere that Jesus made this claim?

Personally, I choose not to be a catholic many years ago. I find gnostic christianity much more rational.

[mondo joe]

151. 2,000 yrs of catholic beliefs? Like the sun revolving around the earth?

You have some funny ideas about the history of the catholic church, which has changed on a number of issues/

Or do you hear mass in Latin only?

Learn about the sun revolving around the earth?

Or have married priests (y'know, like they USED to be allowed to do).

[AndyTiedye]

152. That's Not What John XXIII Did

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

106. Is this a threat?

[unblock]

2. there is a HUGE difference between senator and POPE

i don't think it's unreasonable to hold religious leaders, especially one holding the highest office of the entire religion, to whom is ascribed moral infallibility, to higher moral standards.

[unblock]

5. and for the record, byrd wouldn't be a good choice for pope either.

[Zynx]

11. Will people PLEASE stop with all the infallibility nonesense

That has EXTREMELY limited applications - so limited that it has only been used twice, and both on matters regarding the nature of the Virgin Mary.

The pope must EXPLICITLY envoke it on what are comparitively very limited matters.

[Bridget Burke]

16. The Pope does not have "moral infallability"

He is considered infallable when making a doctrinal statement ex cathedra. This is rarely done.

Catholics revere the office but most realize the Pope is a human being. JPII was widely loved because of his charisma--even though he was quite close to Benedict in doctrine. It remains to be seen what the faithful will make of the new fellow.

If non-Catholics do not accept his authority (which they should not), why do they have a right to demand moral perfection?

As a Democrat, I respect Senator Byrd, even though he joined the Ku Klux Klan as an adult--not at age 14.

[unblock]

40. please don't get distracted by the infallibility issue

whatever, fine, put that aside. do you honestly feel that the pope should be held to a standard no higher than a that of a politician???

and no, i'm not demanding perfection. but it shouldn't be too hard to find an inspiring moral role model amongst the many cardinals.

being a moral leader is a HUGE part of being a pope, and only a small part of being a politician.

[Bridget Burke]

67. You mentioned "infallability" first!

Actually, "moral leader" is not in the job description.

If I were not a lapsed Catholic, I might be more incensed. But his pronouncements on doctrine are what count to the Church--& some of them may have political effect on non-Catholics.

[unblock]

74. yes, hello, i mentioned infallibility first

and then i dropped it when you got distracted by it and are still ignoring the main point.

a pope should be held to a high moral standard and should not have such doubts about his past, especially when there are surely alternative candidates without such doubts.

[Walt Starr]

6. It is indisputable, Ratzi WAS a Nazi n/t

[Mondon]

14. False. n/t

[Walt Starr]

19. Hitlerjungend were considered members of the party n/t

[allemand]

59. This is simply not true. HJ membership was different from membership

in the NSDAP.

In 1945, the Nazi Party had 8.5 million members.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSDAP#General_membership

Most "of Germany's teenagers were incorporated into the Hitler Youth, and by 1940, the total membership reached eight million. Later war figures are difficult to calculate, since massive conscription efforts and a general call-up of boys as young as ten years old meant that virtually every young male in Germany was, in some way, connected to the Hitler Youth."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HJ#Membership

[Mondon]

125. You are correct allemand

He was TOO YOUNG to be a member of the NSDAP:

The Nazi Party: Admission Requirements
Membership Qualifications: (Extracts)

Any member of the German people who has a clean record, who is of pure German blood, who does not belong to a Freemason's lodge or any related organization, and who has completed his 21st year (in some cases his 18th) can become a member of the NSDAP .


http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~jobrien/reference/ob79.html

If Walt wants to be technical, let's be technical.

[Mondon]

61. Source for HJ = Nazi Party in 1941, please

[ComerPerro]

85. LOL

[MrModerate]

7. Hitler Youth and German army don't necessarily equal Nazi . . .

But maybe one can say "former Nazi," just as Byrd is "former KKK."

[Walt Starr]

9. Actually, Hitlerjungend did

The moment you joined the Hitlerjungend, you were a Nazi.

[MrModerate]

18. Well, if we're gonna get all technical, maybe.

But from what I read, a lot of people joined because it wasn't a good idea NOT to . . . same way a lot of my Romanian friends were "Young Pioneers." Not to mention thas such organizations crowded out most of the other youth groups that people would have joined had they been allowed. Heck, I was a Boy Scout, and they've gone down some dark and creepy roads since they taught me how to tie knots.

[Walt Starr]

20. Hitlerjungend were listed as members of the Nazi Party n/t

[Mondon]

119. No.

He was TOO YOUNG to be a member of the NSDAP:

The Nazi Party: Admission Requirements
Membership Qualifications: (Extracts)

Any member of the German people who has a clean record, who is of pure German blood, who does not belong to a Freemason's lodge or any related organization, and who has completed his 21st year (in some cases his 18th) can become a member of the NSDAP .


http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~jobrien/reference/ob79.html


BUSTED. If you want to be technical, let's be technical.

[Lone Pawn]

21. He joined because resistance would land him in a camp.

Which, interestingly enough, is where John Paul II went. John Paul II resisted the Nazis. Benedict XVI colluded because it was easier.

[Walt Starr]

23. DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING!!!!!

Give that poster a Ceeegar!

[Mondon]

46. Did you pay your taxes this year Walt?

Cause they were used to fund Bushco's illegal war. You could have resisted--and landed in jail. Guess that makes you a war criminal along with chimpy, rummy, and wolfie.

[Walt Starr]

47. Paying my taxes does not automatically make me a Republican

but joining the Hitlerjungend automatically made one a Nazi.

[Mondon]

52. IT WAS REQUIRED BY LAW

How is that voluntary? Enough of you. I've read some of your posts on other Ratzinger threads, and your agenda is clear.

[Walt Starr]

54. Sorry if you don't like the ugly facts about the man's past

but I will continue to point out the facts.

[Mondon]

70. Sorry if you don't understand that acts done under duress

are not voluntary. But I think you DO understand, but are more interested in sliming the Catholic Church.

[Walt Starr]

72. HE DID NOT HAVE TO JOIN

Plenty of Germans resisted.

He did not. He instead chose to join and thus became a Nazi.

[Mondon]

83. You don't have to pay taxes, either.

[Walt Starr]

90. That's right

Nor am I ever going to be Pope.

[readmoreoften]

138. Some people on DU have not. n/t

[Lindacooks]

128. Okay, he's not 'under duress' now - where are his statements

condemning Hitler, the Nazis, and the Hitler Youth?? Links and actual statements please, not propaganda or hearsay.

[gollygee]

140. Was Walt Starr chosen by God to be a spiritual leader?

I hadn't heard that.

[Mondon]

45. I wonder what you would have done at 14

with your family already having a record of trouble with the local brown shirts. Easy to be the hero snug in your basement, anonymously blathering on DU.

[Walt Starr]

53. I might have done the same

but I'm not Pope, now am I?

[Lone Pawn]

148. I would have done the same as Ratzinger.

See post #13 for more details.

[Walt Starr]

26. Being a boy Scout in today's America does not automatically make you

a member of the Republican Party.

Being a member of the HJ in Germany automatically made you a member of the Nazi Party.

[Mondon]

24. Oh really?

Membership in the HJ was made compulsory by law in 1936. By your hypothesis, every German boy who was thus compelled to join became a Nazi. Not so.

[Walt Starr]

28. They all DID become Nazis

There were lots of people who were Nazis during the war. Half of the people who worked on the United States Space program were also Nazis. Many members of the United States CIA in teh 50's and 60's were Nazis during the war.

Not liking it doesn't change the fact that Ratzinger WAS A NAZI!

[Mondon]

34. No.

By saying "he was a Nazi" today one means that the individual voluntarily supported the Nazi Party. Getting that designation when compelled to join the HY at 14 doesn't mean the same thing TODAY.

Not like voluntarily joining the Klan in you late 20's.

[Walt Starr]

42. HE WAS A NAZI, that's INDISPUTABLE!

It's a fact. Not liking the fact does not alter the fact!

Robert Byrd WAS A MEMBER OF THE KKK! THAT'S AN INDISPUTABLE FACT! Not liking the fact does not alter it.

Accept the ugliness of the man's past or not, that does not alter the fact that Ratzinger WAS a Nazi!

[Mondon]

48. If the Republican Party

listed me as a member, that does not make me a republican. The fact that this 14-yo boy was compelled by law to go to a few boy scout meetings and that someone then put his name on a list does NOT mean that he VOLUNTARILY JOINED THE NAZIs.

When haters like you say "he was a Nazi" you mean he actively subscribed to the Nazi Party's beliefs (at 14!). It is NOT TRUE in that sense, and you know it.

Your rhetoric is, ironically, Jesuitic.

[Walt Starr]

49. If you sign your name to a registration form registering as a Republican

you're a Republican.

To be a member of the HJ, Ratzinger had to sign his name.

[Mondon]

60. Not if you do it at gunpoint

which is what "compulsory" meant in Nazi Germany

[Walt Starr]

65. There was no gun pointed to his head

and plenty of Germans resisted.

Failure to resist makes him no worse than the majority of Germans. It does, however, make him less than compentent to be Pope, IMO. Thus I will continue to pound the fact that the man WAS a Nazi.

[Mondon]

84. You a practicing Catholic, Walt?

[Walt Starr]

91. WTF does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

I'm a human being commenting on the ugly background of a POLITICAL LEADER.

[Mondon]

108. He's not a political leader

to practicing Catholics. Just trying to see where you're coming from. Now I know.

[Walt Starr]

122. He's the head of state and has global political influence

He also interceded against my candidate in the last presidential election.

[Lone Pawn]

149. Which is similar to saying that Nikita Khrushchev was only a political

leader to Russians and therefore Americans could have ignored him.

[Mondon]

121. Nope

He was TOO YOUNG to be a member of the NSDAP:

The Nazi Party: Admission Requirements
Membership Qualifications: (Extracts)

Any member of the German people who has a clean record, who is of pure German blood, who does not belong to a Freemason's lodge or any related organization, and who has completed his 21st year (in some cases his 18th) can become a member of the NSDAP .


http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~jobrien/reference/ob79.html


BUSTED. If you want to be technical, let's be technical.

[Mondon]

68. Source for Ratzinger = member of Nazi Party, please

[LittleClarkie]

27. I take it that's German for Hitler Youth

It was manditory I believe. And by all accounts they had to rather force the family to sign the kid up. It doesn't sound like his parents were exactly Hitler fans.

[Walt Starr]

33. Mandatory or not does not change the fact, all HJ WERE NAZIS!

That is an indisputable fact.

And even though it was mandatory, many resisted. Karol Wojtyla resisted and went to a camp. Ratzinger went along and became a Nazi.

[Mondon]

37. At 14 he decided not to subject his family to censure

That wasn't a voluntary choice. You are using a legalism to tar this man. Shame.

[Walt Starr]

44. It does not alter the fact that he became a Nazi!

That's the point. He was a Nazi and no amount of denial can alter that fact!

[Mondon]

57. HE did not voluntarily become a Nazi.

You know it. You just hate him and the Church so much you won't admit it.

[Walt Starr]

78. YES HE DID!

Plenty of Germans chose to resist. He chose to join and thus he became a Nazi.

[Mondon]

82. Still no link for original assertion, Walt.....

And, source please for the # of 14 year old youths in 1941 who broke the law and didn't report for HJ

[LittleClarkie]

86. Speaking of Karol

He doesn't seem to have had much problem with the man, seeing as Rattzinger was helping to write his speeches and such. If the current pope was in any way shape or form a Nazi, I don't think PJII would have had much doings with him.

As it is, electing Rattzinger was very much a "stay the course" move, rather like electing the VP after the death of the prez.

[Mondon]

118. WRONG

He was TOO YOUNG to be a member of the NSDAP:

The Nazi Party: Admission Requirements
Membership Qualifications: (Extracts)

Any member of the German people who has a clean record, who is of pure German blood, who does not belong to a Freemason's lodge or any related organization, and who has completed his 21st year (in some cases his 18th) can become a member of the NSDAP .


http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~jobrien/reference/ob79.html


BUSTED. If you want to be technical, let's be technical.

[Mondon]

63. Source please

[vpigrad]

10. Wrong. Saying former Nazi...

is like say ing "former murderer."

[Walt Starr]

22. Werner von Braun was a former Nazi

He got us to the moon.

[Save The World]

87. You can't say "former Nazi"

Since he was never a Nazi to begin with.

[Mondon]

12. It's not right

because there is no evidence he was a Nazi. He was compelled by law to join the Hitler Youth at 14 and conscripted into the Army at 16. His family had to leave one town because his father didn't get along with the local Brownshirts.

There are many legitimate reasons to criticize Ratzinger. This is not one of them. Calling him a Nazi is needlessly offensive to Catholics of all political stripes and discredits legitimate criticisms.

[Lone Pawn]

17. It's factually correct, though.

Membership in the Hitlerjungend granted automatic membership in the Nazi party.

[Mondon]

31. But that's not what people mean when they say "he was a Nazi"

They mean he chose to adhere to the Nazi Party's ideology. That's what is unproven, and that is what, frankly, is offensive to Catholics such as myself.

By contrast, nobody compelled Sen. Byrd to join the KKK (or to become a "kleagle").

[Walt Starr]

35. Now you can read minds?

He was a Nazi. It is an indisputable FACT.

[Mondon]

39. I can read the bitter hate in all of your posts, Walt. N/t

[Walt Starr]

43. Stating fact is not hatred

It is merely STATING FACT!

[Mondon]

50. The tone of your posts and your pounding on a bureaucratic entry

to malign the leader of a faith you clearly dislike speak for themselves.

[Walt Starr]

51. Tone? WTF?

How the fuck can you tell "tone" from a textual post?

:eyes:

Your denial is quite obvious. Denialk is not just a river in Egypt.

[Mondon]

56. Tone:

From Merriam-Webster online, 6th meaning:

6 : style or manner of expression in speaking or writing.

Hope that helps.

[Walt Starr]

58. You have misinterpreted statement of fact for a "tone"

Sorry if you find the facts about the man's past too ugly to accept. That does not alter the fact that the man was a Nazi.

[Mondon]

64. Your gleeful harping on a 14yo's decision not to subject his family

to further persecution is "tone" my friend.

You really hate the Church, don't you.

[Walt Starr]

69. Your denial of the facts shows your "agenda"

The "Church" doesn't even enter into this. This is a politcal discussion.

[Mondon]

71. Yeah, ok, if you say so.

[Walt Starr]

Thank you.

I'm glad we finally agree.

[Mondon]

77. It's called sarcasm, duh.

[Walt Starr]

79. I suggest you check the smilies

:sarcasm:

[Mondon]

81. Still no link for original assertion, Walt.....

[Walt Starr]

89. Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Youth

"The Hitler Youth (named Hitlerjugend in German, abbreviated HJ), was a paramilitary organization of the Nazi Party that existed from 1922 to 1945. The Hitler Youth was the second oldest paramilitary Nazi group, founded one year after the Sturmabteilung (SA) Stormtroopers.

"

[Mondon]

95. read further on, Walt

"Since the organization was compulsory after 1938, there was little effort to "black list" political figures who had once been members of the Hitler Youth, since it was considered that they had had no choice in the matter."

[Walt Starr]

98. Didn't change the fact

they were Nazis.

Von Braun was also a Nazi. It was just as compulsory for him. It did not change the fact that he was a Nazi.

[Mondon]

126. Still no response to fact HE WAS TOO YOUNG FOR MEMBERSHIP

He was TOO YOUNG to be a member of the NSDAP:

The Nazi Party: Admission Requirements
Membership Qualifications: (Extracts)

Any member of the German people who has a clean record, who is of pure German blood, who does not belong to a Freemason's lodge or any related organization, and who has completed his 21st year (in some cases his 18th) can become a member of the NSDAP .


http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~jobrien/reference/ob79.html

Well????

[Mondon]

80. Still no link for original assertion, Walt.....

[Mondon]

76. And still no link even for your original "fact"

that HJ membership = Nazi party member in 1941......hmmmm.

[Walt Starr]

88. Look at the flag

Read the entry in Wikipedia:

"The Hitler Youth (named Hitlerjugend in German, abbreviated HJ), was a paramilitary organization of the Nazi Party that existed from 1922 to 1945. The Hitler Youth was the second oldest paramilitary Nazi group, founded one year after the Sturmabteilung (SA) Stormtroopers."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Youth

[Mondon]

92. That's it????

He's compelled by law at 14 to join, and you can't even point to a form he signed or anything?

Calling someone a Nazi today means calling them a genocidal murderer. You can call Ratzi a rightwing fuckwad, and that's fair, but to call him a genocidal murderer on the basis of COMPELLED attendance at the age of 14 is bullshit.

But, by all means, enjoy your rants. Don't worry if it just provides further fodder for those who like to use such posts to paint the Left as a bunch of haters.

[Walt Starr]

94. Provide a link to the law that compelled him

Thanks.

BTW, it clearly stated at the Wikipedia link, it was an organization of the NJAZI PARTY!

[Mondon]

107. Your own Wikipedia article says so:

"Since the organization was compulsory after 1938, there was little effort to "black list" political figures who had once been members of the Hitler Youth, since it was considered that they had had no choice in the matter."

[allemand]

111. Two laws.

Gesetz über die Hitlerjugend vom 1. Dezember 1936
http://www.dhm.de/lemo/html/dokumente/hjgesetz/

Verordnung: Jugenddienstpflicht, 1939
http://www.dhm.de/lemo/html/dokumente/hjdienst/

Please plug in your babelfish.

In December of 1936, Hitler Youth membership stood at just over 5 million. That same month, the Hitler Youth became obligatory and membership was required by law (Gesetz über die Hitlerjugend). This obligation was affirmed in 1939 with the Jugenddienstpflicht. Membership could be enforced even against the will of the parents.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HJ#Membership

[Walt Starr]

96. BTW, calling somebody a Nazi means precisely

membership in the Nazi Party.

Werner von Braun was a Nazi. That is indisputable. He also headed up the U.S. program to put a man on the moon. That is also indisputable.

Ratzi WAS a Nazi just as Byrd WAS a member of the KKK.

[allemand]

99. Then Ratzinger never was a Nazi, because he was never a member of the

NSDAP. Sorry, members of the HJ did not automatically become members of the Nazi Party.

[Walt Starr]

100. Soirry, they were

It is a fact that HJ was a part of the NSDAP.

[allemand]

105. But the members of the HJ were not automatically members of the NSDAP.

You had to apply, it was a different registration process.

[Walt Starr]

110. Sorry, but they were

Again from Wikipedia

:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party#Party_composition

"Paramilitary groups
In addition to the Nazi Party proper, several paramilitary groups existed which "supported" Nazi aims. All such members of these paramilitary organizations were required to become regular Nazi Party members first, and could then enlist in the group of their choice. A vast system of Nazi party paramilitary ranks developed for each of the various paramilitary groups.

The major Nazi Party paramilitary groups were as follows:

Schutzstaffel (SS): Protection Service
Sturmabteilung (SA): Storm Troopers
Nationalsozialistische Fliegerkorps (NSFK): National Socialist Flyers Corps
Nationalsozialistisches Automobilkorps (NSAK): National Socialist Automobile Corps
The Hitler Youth was a paramilitary group divided into an adult leadership corps and a general membership open to boys aged fourteen to eighteen."

[Mondon]

112. Read closely

That doesn't say that the boys in the HJ were members of the party.

[Walt Starr]

113. Paramilitary organization members were party of party membership

read it again.

[Mondon]

116. WRONG

He was TOO YOUNG to be a member of the NSDAP:

The Nazi Party: Admission Requirements
Membership Qualifications: (Extracts)

Any member of the German people who has a clean record, who is of pure German blood, who does not belong to a Freemason's lodge or any related organization, and who has completed his 21st year (in some cases his 18th) can become a member of the NSDAP .


http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~jobrien/reference/ob79.html


BUSTED. If you want to be technical, let's be technical.

[Walt Starr]

120. Competing links

:shrug:

See my last post. It was a requirement for members of paramilitary organizations to afirst be members of the Nazi PArty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party#Party_composition

[Mondon]

129. Nope.

I gave you the translation of an original document, not an ambiguous reference that does NOT say that the youth members of theHJ were Nazis.

If you continue to make the assertion in the light of FACTS, it only confirms my worst suspicions--that you are motivated by animus rather than reason.

Sometimes its hard to believe this is the party of Jack Kennedy.

[Walt Starr]

132. You haven't convinced me

but this person is convincing me:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3518825

[Mondon]

134. I know I won't convince you

My concern is to neutralize the false info you're spreading. The facts are:

1. Membership in the HY was COMPULSORY.

2. The minimum age for membership in the Nazi Party was 21 (or, in exceptional circumstances, 18).

3. Ratzi joined the HY in compliance with law when he was 14.

4. He was drafted at 16.

So, your premise that his membership in the HY made him a Nazi is FALSE.

The fact you won't admit it, again, reveals your motivation.

No wonder some Catholics are turned off by our party.

[Mondon]

115. GOT YOU!!!!!

He was TOO YOUNG to be a member of the NSDAP:

The Nazi Party: Admission Requirements
Membership Qualifications: (Extracts)

Any member of the German people who has a clean record, who is of pure German blood, who does not belong to a Freemason's lodge or any related organization, and who has completed his 21st year (in some cases his 18th) can become a member of the NSDAP .


http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~jobrien/reference/ob79.html


BUSTED. If you want to be technical, let's be technical.

[Walt Starr]

117. Read again about paramilitary organization members

Paramilitary groups
In addition to the Nazi Party proper, several paramilitary groups existed which "supported" Nazi aims. All such members of these paramilitary organizations were required to become regular Nazi Party members first, and could then enlist in the group of their choice. A vast system of Nazi party paramilitary ranks developed for each of the various paramilitary groups.

The major Nazi Party paramilitary groups were as follows:

Schutzstaffel (SS): Protection Service
Sturmabteilung (SA): Storm Troopers
Nationalsozialistische Fliegerkorps (NSFK): National Socialist Flyers Corps
Nationalsozialistisches Automobilkorps (NSAK): National Socialist Automobile Corps
The Hitler Youth was a paramilitary group divided into an adult leadership corps and a general membership open to boys aged fourteen to eighteen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party#Party_composition

[allemand]

127. Exactly. The adult leadership corps consisted of party members, the

general membership in the HJ was open to all, even if they were not members of the Nazi Party. Some members of the HJ were indeed automatically enlisted in the NSDAP on occasion of Hitler's birthday in 1944.

There were 8.5 million party members in 1945. You don't want to tell me that the NSDAP membership consisted only of little boys...?

[Walt Starr]

102. I linked in another post n/t

[SOS]

124. ?

Gunter Grass was in the HY, but was never a Nazi. How could that be? Or are you saying that people like Grass and Habermas were party members?

[Mondon]

133. Walt misread a Wikipedia entry.

Boys compelled to join the HY, by DEFINITION, couldn't be members of the Party until they reached the age of majority:

The Nazi Party: Admission Requirements
Membership Qualifications: (Extracts)

Any member of the German people who has a clean record, who is of pure German blood, who does not belong to a Freemason's lodge or any related organization, and who has completed his 21st year (in some cases his 18th) can become a member of the NSDAP .


http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~jobrien/reference/ob79.html

If Walt wants to be technical, let's be technical.

[allemand]

75. BS n/t

[Mondon]

123. You're right, it IS BS

He was TOO YOUNG to be a member of the NSDAP:

The Nazi Party: Admission Requirements
Membership Qualifications: (Extracts)

Any member of the German people who has a clean record, who is of pure German blood, who does not belong to a Freemason's lodge or any related organization, and who has completed his 21st year (in some cases his 18th) can become a member of the NSDAP .


http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~jobrien/reference/ob79.html

If Walt want's to be technical, let's be technical.

[LittleClarkie]

30. And that is exactly what I'm seeing too

Rather like attaching the Gannon story to that mom who was missing her son. The Right can legitimately point at us and say we're nuts. And I'd have trouble disagreeing. Don't make me agree with the Right people. My heart couldn't take it.

[Lone Pawn]

13. He's not a Nazi. He's just a worm.

First of all, I admit he's not a Nazi. Secondly, I admit he was only fourteen when it started (although he stayed in service of the Nazis past his eighteenth birthday). Thirdly, no, I doubt I would have done any better.

But my problem with it is that Benedict, as far as I've been able to tell, has throughout his life been a 'moral hardliner' that's vascillated with the times. He reports that he was anti-Nazi, but when the Nazis came to draft him, rather than take the moral ground at any point in the next four years and resist as John Paul II did--even when guarding that Dachau-labor warplane plant or laying traps for Russian tanks coming to liberate those in Austrian camps--he simply went along with what was easiest. He remained a Nazi. "They told me to" is not a moral defense. It is the defense of the weak man. I am a weak man. Most people are weak men. The man who would be Pope--and would be a moral hardliner--ought not be intrinsically morally weak. And yes, eighteen years is certainly old enough to be able to make a moral decision. He made his decision. He decided to go along and fight with the German army.

However, he finally did desert, right? Yeah. In May 1945. And I've heard, "No, idiot, it's 1944" from more than a few DUers, but I'm inclined to believe actual news sources over anonymous ramblers on the internet.

http://www.nysun.com/article/12501
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=15421103&metho...
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/04/19/world/main689...
http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_16...

I don't see much moral strength in a man who decides, the month after the Russian flag flies over the Reichstag and Hitler shoots himself, that perhaps being in the German army isn't the best idea in the world. And, after literally hundreds of thousands of German soldiers had deserted, defected or surrendered, I don't think he was taking any more of a moral stand than everyone else did—the "oh, shit, it looks like the guys who told us to do this are powerless now, and now there are new guys with guns, so I better make nice with them instead." moral stand. It's not impressive to suddenly renounce your involvement with the Nazis once American guns are pointed at you.

But we can forgive him for being a weasel at eighteen. After all, it would have been difficult to take a moral stand. I mean, sure, thousands of Catholic priests and seminarians chose to endure work camps rather than serve the Nazi regime, but it would have been really unpleasant, and we can't expect the Pope to show moral clarity above and beyond the average man.

But that was then. Let's move forward a bit--to 1962, when the winds of change are blowing in the Vatican and liberal reform are the words on everyone's tongue. What is our friend Cardinal Ratzinger doing? Why, of course, he's at the forefront of the liberal-reform movement! Yes, Cardinal Ratzinger was a liberal, progressive thinker.

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:ZB6MXz50a1gJ:www.t...
http://www.missourinet.com/gestalt/go.cfm?objectid=DD9B...

He claims he switched to being a conservative after seeing German student protests in 1968, but that's slightly difficult to believe, as he really didn't say a whole lot 'conservative' for a few years after that. In fact, he didn't say much at all for a few years more. He was no liberal--but then again, liberal power was dwindling. Of course, he wasn't an arch-conservative either--no decarations of the Hellbound status of Jews and liberals. It could have been that he required a decade to figure out how to say what he wanted to say. Or it could have been that the Church was going through political infighting over the validity of Vatican II, and he didn't want to be too strongly on anyone's side.

Of course, in 1978 John Paul II was elected. JP2 was young, energetic, healthy, and above all conservative. John Paul II was a hell of a conservative. And Cardinal Ratzinger quickly became a hell of a conservative. And the higher he climbed, and the closer he got to the top of the chain, the more conservative Ratzinger got. He became viciously conservative, calling the liberal ideas he held vanguard over when they were popular morally bankrupt and sinful.

And was rewarded for this, his final flip, with the papacy.

No, the man was not a Nazi. I don't even think he has the integrity to be an actual, honest-to-God Nazi.

He's just a man of no moral character; a man who believes strongly in whatever the people who hold the power believe. A Nazi soldier when the Nazis are in power, a Democratic German writer and priest when the United States set up shop, a liberal bulldog when the liberals held the Vatican, a conservative rottweiler when the conservatives held the Vatican. The perfect soldier-mentality; he would fight for whatever he's told to fight for. He's a man of no strength. He's a mental and intellectual coward. And he presumes to talk about moral clarity. The only moral clarity his life has displayed, the only rule he's unerringly followed is thus:

"Obey those with power."

This is not the type of man who should be Pope. There is a problem here.
 

[Bridget Burke]

25. Convey your reservations to your Parish Priest.

If you aren't Catholic, I can understand objections to Papal meddling in politics.

Otherwise, he's not your problem.

[Lone Pawn]

32. I am Catholic, and I have.

He wrote back saying he, too, was "interested in determining the truth of the allegations made about His Holiness' past," but it was more important to remember that "the Holy Spirit chose him and will guide him." Which I accept, after a fashion. Part of me can accept that. But most of me believes that Ratzinger was an entirely machiavellian creature.

[sonicx]

104. Just like how Jerry Falwell's not my problem?

[pnorman]

66. I'd been trying to make a similar response on a few other Pope threads.

But they were NOWHERE as well laid out and convincing as yours. THANKS.

So here's a litle something for a DUer from Minneapolis: http://shows.implex.tv/wellstone/ The first time I found that site on DU, a day or so after the Memorial Service, it was early in the morning. I was up till sunup, watching it and feeling a lot better in my sadness. I can't recall how many times I've watched it since then. ENJOY.

STAND UP KEEP FIGHTING

pnorman

[RaleighNCDUer]

73. Don't hold back. Tell us what you really think.

FYO, I totally agree. Nicely written.

[allemand]

97. Again, he turned 18 on April 16, 1945.

A view days later he deserted.

Here is his own account of his desertion:

His greatest peril came in the days preceding Germany's surrender in early May 1945. Taking advantage of the prevailing chaos, he made his way home, narrowly escaping the sentries posted at every crossroad with orders to shoot all "deserters" on sight. Once home, he found himself in even greater danger from two SS officers quartered in the family home, whose comrades had already hung from trees other young deserters. The two disappeared suddenly, without harming the young Joseph or his father, whose open denunciations of Hitler would have brought him immediate death only days before.
http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=663

There you will also find more about his thoughts at the time.

[LittleClarkie]

103. And on his birthday, all wisdom was bestowed

that had been lacking but a few days before.

I believe in fairies. Ping!

Seems a bit of minutia, really. Is or isn't responsible. 17 or 18. Forced or not.

How many Germans from that time were Hitler Youth whether they liked it or not.

How many on the board now were there then? Do we know what it was like?

Rather like Black folk saying they'd never have submitted to being slaves, how can we judge if we weren't there.

There is plenty to criticize the man for NOW without trying to make him a Nazi too.

[RaleighNCDUer]

109. His own accounts. Are there third party accounts that verify

his version?

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

141. Consider this...

...and this is REALLY a cliche, so I apologize in advance.

A man robs a bank so he can live on the beach in the Caribbean.

He's a CRIMINAL, right?

A man steals a loaf of bread to feed his family.

Man trying to feed his family or CRIMINAL?

There are millions and millions and millions and MILLIONS of people in the world.

This man was a NAZI, by choice or circumstances.

He MEDDLED in the FUCKING UNITED STATES PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

He's a RATFUCK human being, REGARDLESS of whether or not he was a "Nazi."

He is NOT my Pope.

[Lone Pawn]

146. The "RATFUCK human being" part was what I was getting at.

I claimed in that post he wasn't a Nazi.

[maveric]

36. Is this a little harsh!

http://nazipopelol.ytmnd.com/

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

38. As a Catholic...AND someone who's been calling him a Nazi...AND...

...as someone who pays to advertise my business in my local church bulletin...here are a few thoughts:

1). I was offended to the "nth degree" during the election when I had to sit in my church, during the "Prayer Of The Faithful" portion of the Mass, and hear the prayer to God for "wisdom to elect leaders who will respect the rights of the unborn." I posted a thread on DU yesterday that revealed Ratzinger as the architect of that...the man who wrote the letter that went to the Bishops that channeled down to the local churches. SO...Kerry is a baby killer, but Bush respects the rights of the unborn. Let's not mention the war in Iraq. Let's not mention Bush giggling like a maniac and doing his impression of Karla Faye Tucker ("Oh, PLEASE don't kill me!")...let's just vote for the homicidal maniac who "respects the rights of the unborn." That is the PRIMARY reason why I don't care for Ratzinger, or Benedict, or Adolf, or whatever he's calling himself these days.

2). The Freepers don't need an excuse to attack Senator Byrd. As far as they're concerned, Bill Clinton is an excuse to attack ALL THINGS BLUE.

3). How far is too far when it comes to the Bush administration? Maybe Ratzinger had to join the Hitler Youth. Maybe he did desert. But he was a Nazi. Calling Ratzinger a Nazi isn't tinfoil hat time, it's "truth in labeling." Tell a Holocaust survivor that Ratzinger was a Nazi but his heart wasn't really in it and see what they say.

4). I'd feel a lot better about the new Pope if "Nazi" appeared nowhere on his resume.

5). If the entire pool of Pope candidates (the "Pope Pool") dried up to leave ONLY former Nazis for consideration, I would RELUCTANTLY accept a former Nazi as Pope...but he would forever be my second choice to a non-Nazi Pope.

6). Air America Radio is playing a promo for the Randi Rhodes show today that goes something like this: "Remember when the Republicans were yelling about electing John F. Kennedy, a CATHOLIC, President? How they didn't want the Vatican running our country? Well, guess what? George W. Bush isn't even Catholic and the VATICAN IS RUNNING OUR COUNTRY."

7). If George W. Bush gets into bed with Jerry Falwell...WHICH HE MOST CERTAINLY DID, while pimping for votes, and if George W. Bush gets into bed with Ratzinger...WHICH HE MOST CERTAINLY DID, while pimping for votes, I see Ratzinger and Falwell as being cut from the same cloth. I don't send money to Falwell and I'm not thrilled about Ratzinger being in the drivers' seat of my church.

So there ya have it, I guess...just one Catholic's opinion.

:toast:

[LittleClarkie]

101. Here would be a test

How do the Germans feel about him?

What Jewish writings do we have so far?

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

130. My GUESS...my admittedly uneducated guess...IS...

Since he has distanced himself from the whole Nazi "experience," he's probably not held in very high regard in the hearts of pro-Nazi Germany. However, only an ignorant fool would believe that ALL Germans are pro-Nazi...SO...hard to say.

I've only read second-hand accounts of this on the Web. I have read NOTHING by Ratzinger HIMSELF saying "I HAD to do it, I DIDN'T WANT TO do it, I REGRET doing what I did, my life has been a long journey of ATONEMENT for what I did"...

I've heard OTHER people speaking FOR Ratzinger. For all I know, he might have the time of his life...or he may have fallen on his knees and begged God's forgiveness.

I DON'T KNOW. Does he own a copy of Meni Kampf?

And I haven't seen ANY Jewish writings, but that is why I made the comment. I would place a great deal of weight behind the opinions of a Jewish SCHOLAR (meaning someone who DID understand Ratzinger's experience, IN HIS OWN WORDS, and not someone who was Web surfing and decided on the spur of the moment that Eichmann got elected Pope).

And the irony is that Bush could get popped for DUI, Bush could go AWOL, Bush could pull all kinds of crap and get handed the presidency...TWICE.

I normally would not be so brazen, but I really feel that Ratzinger needs to do two things: 1). Step up to the plate and address the whole Nazi thing without having a flunky or lackey do it for him, OR 2). TELL THE WORLD IT'S NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS, and GO CHENEY YOURSELF.

From where we stand right now, it seems like a man hoping his past will melt away as people fill the pews.

And YES, I call him "Ratzinger" instead of "Pope Benedict XVI" because I DON'T accept him. He has some explaining to do.

And the involvement in electing George Bush will piss me off until this guy is PLANTED, whether he's an unrepentant Nazi or NOT.

[LittleClarkie]

137. There's an autobio out there somewhere I think

that might be illuminating

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

142. Hey, if it's on the Web, I WILL FIND IT...

I may not do EVERYTHING well, but I am a RELENTLESS WEB RESEARCHER.

If I find it I will post it in a separate thread.

I think if we judge people without having all of the facts, we're no better than the people we distance ourselves from ("Freepers," etc.)

SO...I honestly WANT to think that the RIGHT decision has been made. My HEART is telling me that IT HAS NOT.

My MIND is telling met to "keep Googling."

:toast:

And by the way, I DO admire the fact that you asked the initial question. Judging by the response, it is a question that needed to be asked.

:yourock:

[Montauk6]

41. They already DO!!!!

In fact, they not only remind us of this but it's a standard rule for every black consoviet to bring up the fact that all the southern segregationists were Democrats and that Lincoln was a Republican.

[goodboy]

114. probably not, but I think it's still right to call the bushies fascists...

nothing will change that for me.

[Walt Starr]

131. Please read date and time of this post, another post is reversing my

thinking here.

This post has given me much to contemplate:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3518825

[Kathryn7]

135. Today it would be called child abuse.

[Mondon]

136. I apologize

for impugning your motives.

[Bridget Burke]

139. Very interesting.

As long as we can continue learning, we won't grown old.

[Cuban_Liberal]

143. It's not right, but some total asshats persist in doing it anyway.

He was NOT a Nazi, as 'allemand' has coherently explained and documented. However, the 'he was a Nazi' crowd has never been one to let little things like facts get in the way of a good smear...

[K-W]

147. No, it is far far far worse than calling Byrd a Klansman.

Because Robert Byrd was fully grown making his own decisions.

Ratzinger deserves the benefit of the doubt on the Nazi thing.