Since My Last Post Got Pulled, Here Are Some Facts on Blackwater Security

[DistressedAmerican]

without any inflammatory rhetoric that may be against the rules:

(Mods, I have tried to keep this within guidelines. I think it is.)

Please educate yourself on these folks. There are many more firms operating in the same capacity over there. This is just the best known and understood.

Anyone that thinks these are mainly just folks driving trucks to feed their families, you are wrong!

They are staffed by ex-special forces trained mercenaries.
=====================================================================

http://www.publicintegrity.org/wow/bio.aspx?act=pro&ddlC=95

-Snip-
Blackwater Security Consulting, a strategic division of Blackwater USA, was formed on Sept. 29, 2003, according to documents filed with the secretary of state's office in North Carolina.

Blackwater USA, which was founded in 1996 by a former Navy SEAL, says it has trained more than 50,000 law enforcement and military personnel since then. Today, in addition to Blackwater Security Consulting, Blackwater USA comprises four companies: Blackwater Aviation, Blackwater Canine, Blackwater Target Systems, and Blackwater Training Center. According to its Web site, the company provides its clients "with veteran military, intelligence and law enforcement professionals with demonstrated field operations performance tempered with mature experience in both foreign and domestic requirements." Customers include government agencies such as the Department of State and the Department of Defense, federal law enforcement, and corporations. The company relies heavily on the special-operations community for its hires.

Blackwater was the subject of numerous media accounts after a March 31, 2004, incident in which four of its employees were killed in Iraq. Pictures of their bodies, mutilated by a mob of insurgents, hanging from a bridge in Fallujah, were front-page news around the world. In early April, The Washington Post reported that eight employees from Blackwater, alongside four military police and a Marine gunner, defended CPA's Najaf headquarters from an attack of hundreds of Iraqi militia members. Blackwater called in its own helicopters for air support before reinforcements arrived.According to The Virginian-Pilot, Blackwater has more than 450 personnel in Iraq. The company now has opened offices in both Baghdad and Kuwait City.

-END SNIP-
=====================================================================

On Those that were killed in Falluja. They weren't just driving trucks to feed their families people:

http://www.sandline.com/hotlinks/CNN-Blackwater.html
-SNIP-
MOYOCK, North Carolina (AP) -- The four civilians who were killed and dragged through the streets of an Iraqi town Wednesday worked for a North Carolina subcontractor that is providing security in a hostile area of Iraq.

Blackwater Security Consulting provides security training and guard services to customers around the world. It is one of five subsidiaries of Blackwater USA, based in northeastern North Carolina about a half-hour's drive from the world's largest naval base in Norfolk, Virginia.

The company referred calls to a spokesman in suburban Washington who declined comment beyond a prepared statement that said Blackwater was a government subcontractor providing security for the delivery of food in the Fallujah area.
-End Snip-

===================================================================
For those that think these folks are just security guards we have this:

http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/04/1731018.php
-SNIP-
Outburst by US security firm in Iraq is attacked by human rights groups

Mark Townsend
Sunday April 3, 2005
The Observer

One of the biggest private security firms in Iraq has created outrage after a memo to staff claimed it is 'fun' to shoot people.

Emails seen by The Observer reveal that employees of Blackwater Security were recently sent a message stating that 'actually it is "fun" to shoot some people.'

Dated 7 March and bearing the name of Blackwater's president, Gary Jackson, the electronic newsletter adds that terrorists 'need to get creamed, and it's fun, meaning satisfying, to do the shooting of such folk.'

Human rights groups said yesterday that the comments raised fresh questions over the role of civilian contractors operating in Iraq and other world flashpoints.

'We are very concerned about the increased use of security companies, there needs to be more inspection and regulation of these companies,' said a spokesman for Amnesty International.

Blackwater has already been the subject of lobbying efforts to introduce tighter regulations on private military operations in Iraq.
-End Snip-

[SpiralHawk]

1. Mercenaries on the March (to the bank)

while our soldiers and National Guard troops are paid peanuts, the fatcat Republican "security" companies are reaping MegaBucks providing mercenary soldiers at Executive Pay Levels. The Republican-owned companies get rich, the mercenaries get a little fat, and our men and women in uniform get shit.

With the Iraq war, based on WMD lies, BushCo is screwing our service people, and enriching its fat Republican friends. Meanwhile, of course, the actions of the Mercenary Republican Corporations are unchecked and unregulated by the citizens of the US. They answer only to BushCo in secret.

What's wrong with this picture?

[NewJeffCT]

7. One disappointment with Air America

Is that they call these folks "contractors", too, and to the average American, a contractor is somebody you call to build an addition on to your house or put on a new roof, so most assume these folks are there building schools and churches.

We should really use the term "mercenary" for these security folks, because that is what they are in reality.

[MidRoadDem]

2. Using these guys is questionable

but to be technical mercenaries are for hire for any country. Blackwater is a US company providing a service to the US military.

Merc' sounds nice but is not a proper use of the term. By that definition all CIA contractors would be mercenary.

The logic behind their use is questionable, at best.

[DistressedAmerican]

4. Any CIA Contractor Killing Folks IS A Mercenary!

Paid to kill is paid to kill. Doesn't really matter who is paying or who they are killing.

[MidRoadDem]

9. If you

Are a contract employee of the CIA and act by their direction you are not a mercenary. If you are an assasin and will kill for anyone for anything you are a mercenay.

A mercenary will kill for any cause, these guys are ex-special forces and have a contract with the military. That does not fit the term mercenary.

Not according to the definition of the word.

Lots of people are paid to kill, that does not make them mercenaries, it makes them paid killers.

Now outsourcing special forces is a different topic, and a bad idea.

[mopinko]

44. button idea (or lack thereof, i should say)

this is an area that i have been trying to "buttonize" for a while. not so much from the military perspective, but just the insidiousness of privatizing government functions, from the janitors to the army. this is, without a doubt, the prybar used to open up our treasuries. here in chicago a mob company got the contract for clean up at festivals by posing as a woman owned company. all that stuff was once done by union streets and san employees. that is an endangered species now. replaced by cheap temp labor, lining cronies pockets with the rest. sold with lies, lies. no accountability. ink in the waters. by design.
so, there's a challenge for you. boil that rant down to 6 words and a picture.
here's the best i have come up with so far-


have yet to sell ONE

[tubbacheez]

10. My understanding is that a mercenary is

any professional soldier for hire, who isn't part of a country's regular military force. Basically, mercenaries make up a private army with its own uniforms and its own chain of command.


The fact that this private army has only one business contract with one particular government (i.e. the U.S.) would not make its employees any less definable as mercenaries.

The private army can offer paramilitary services, either exclusively or nonexclusively, to sovereign governments.

It's not necessary that each individual mercenary offer his/her services to multiple sovereign governments.

[DistressedAmerican]

Agreed. Loyalty To One Master Or The Other Does Not Make You Any Less

a mercenary!

"professional soldier for hire" is the operative phrase.

Lots of mercenaries are loyal to their boss. Still mercenaries...

[tubbacheez]

15. Bingo. That definition seems to be more common IMHO. n/t

[RedCloud]

83. How about para-military?

It seems like they fit that term like a glove.

I don't have the facts at hand but when the NC group hit the news here, close to NC, I recall that they were called former military so as to avoid the huge barrage of criticism they would get for obfuscating the news...

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DistressedAmerican]

5. Careful. That was the kind of thing that got the first thread shut down.

I want this one to hang around.

not that I am necessarily disagreeing...

[aaronnyc]

8. I'm glad that you feel comfortable deciding who deserves death

Edited for clarity so that people don't continue to be (understandably) outraged, at what they somehow misperceived to be my justification of one of the most horrible incidents in U.S. history.


Additionally, they were not engaging in aggressive military actions. Such as "search and destroy missions" and operations in Fallujah; a true mercenary would have not only done this, but they would have been employed by the U.S. government. These people are working for private companies which provide security - yeah, you think that is bullshit - but remember, that a Iraq is having a little trouble in these regards, and these services could actually be helpful.

Given the logic which you use in saying that the contracters in Iraq deserve death, a Right Winger could argue that the people killed Kent State deserved it, because they should have known that there was a chance the National Guard would have itchy trigger fingers. You can see, that this mentality of determining life and death based on political views is quite troubling. This kind of moral absoloutism is used by the people who are willing to kill those who don't prescribe to their viewpoint (ie. assasinations, abortion clinic bombings, Oklahoma City etc...).

Oh, I get it they only deserve death when you disagree with them.

[Binka]

12. "Additionally, they were not engaging in aggressive military actions"

Who told you that? Guess what Sparky they were fucking lying to you. And you dare bring up the kids mowed down at Kent State to compare with these money grubbing Rambo's. Who do you agree with?

You just got alerted on. Your post shouts volumes.

[aaronnyc]

18. I am saying that you don't have the moral authority to decide life-death

edited for grammar

Obviously, what happen at Kent State is horrendous. And you know that I wasn't saying anything defending that awful killing of four innocent protesters.

However, using your logic, they would not necessarily be innocent because they put themselves in a position where they could conceivably be harmed. Thus, using moral relativity (which I believe is a good thing), your argument - that the contractors deserved to die - is just as valid as a Freeper argument that the protesters at Kent St. deserved to die.
That was the point I was making by referring to Kent St, and I think that you knew that.

I certainly do not support this war; but I don't think that those who do support it, deserve to die. I don't think that I, nor anybody else, has the right to decide life and death matters (aside from cases of self-defense). For you to pass judgment like this, without having any substantive knowledge of what they were precisely doing in Iraq, makes your argument that much more preposterous.

[DistressedAmerican]

23. Why Do You Defend Blackwater Employes Having The Authority

"to decide life-death"? They do every day you now!

[Binka]

24. My Argument Is Sound My Ex Is CIA And We Are Still Friends

He's been talking to me about these fucks prior to the invasion.

To quote you: And you know that I wasn't saying any defending that awful killing of four innocent protesters

Why is this sentence incomplete and why don't you out right apologize. I don't know what you are attempting to say because your writing is murky and your grammar atrocious.

Betcha a dozen dough nuts you're anti-choice. So much for the moral relativism you blathered about up post. That is a GOP talking point by the way but you knew that didn't you?

[aaronnyc]

28. Sorry to offend you with my grammar

I was offended at being accused of supporting the atrocity at Kent State, and didn't really think about grammar. I will go back and edit for clarity, if that makes you happy.

Oh, and I certainly am not anti-choice or anything close to a Republican. I don't know how the hell you deduced that from my post. Saying that private contractors don't deserve to die = Republican?

Oh, and since when did defense of moral relativity become a GOP talking point? Yeah, Bush has always been real big on moral relativity.:eyes:

[zanne]

87. Moral relativity has been a GOP talking point for years...

Especially during the Clinton scandal. If you've never heard a GOP pundit comdemning "liberal moral relativity", you haven't been paying attention.

[aaronnyc]

94. Oh, I am well aware that they the GOP has condemned "moral relativity"

I have heard tons of conservative pundits refer to "liberal moral relativity." They have used that phrase as a talking point since the 1960's.

I was posting in support of moral relativity.
If you go back to post #18, I wrote : "Thus, using moral relativity (which I believe is a good thing)..."

I believe that the poster who responded, accused me of using DEFENSE of moral relativity as a "GOP talking point." Since the GOP obviously hates moral relativity, I didn't really understand what the poster was talking about; I think that the sarcastic comment I made about Bush being big on moral relativity, made this clear.

[Nostradammit]

75. Ding Ding Ding!!!

Excellent use of the term, "Anti-Choice."

Good show, carry on!!

:toast:

[Misunderestimator]

14. Kent State Anti-War Protestors / Iraqi Mercenaries

nope... doesn't compute. (A mercenary doesn't necessarily have to fight to be a mercenary. A mercenary's prime motivation is for material gain. They are participating in the war by being there. Find me one of these guys whose motivation is not money.)

[aaronnyc]

20. I agree about money

I have no doubt that the "mercenaries" are motivated by money. However, many of us (including myself) work for jobs which benefit the U.S. economy - these help to finance for the War in Iraq. We also pay taxes which often go directly to the defense dept."mercenary"?

The only difference is that the fact that they are actually in the country of Iraq makes it possible to see a direct correlation. And I am not suggesting that "the little Eichmann" theory is valid; it is because I reject that theory that I don't believe that private contractors are any more responsible for the War, than are regular civilians - neither are responsible.

[DistressedAmerican]

25. Active Combatants Are Not Responsible For The War?

You have to be kidding right?

One is a direct active supporter and perticipant. The other is a passive victim of govenmental policy. Those do bnot equate any better than Blackwater folks equal Kent State protesters.

Hey, The Hitler youth are no different than the Girl Scouts. They are both youth organizations. Right.

You need to work on your analogies!

[aaronnyc]

26. Are they all active combatants?

I don't know. I was under the impression that a large number of them really were there doing true security work. IF they either are doing true security work, or went to Iraq with the belief that they would do true security work, I don't think that it is fair to say that they are responsible for the War.

If there really is no distinction between the work that the military does in Iraq, and the work that the private contractors do then your point is correct. I simply don't know.

[DistressedAmerican]

27. Does EVERY LAST ONE Have To Be Doing It For You To Be Uncomfortable?

Just do some googling. Many, Many are doing it. Please do some reading.

It sounds like you are getting slowly educated about the situation. That is great. It is why I posted! Thanks for bearing with me...

[bvar22]

48. I don't have a choice about paying my taxes.

The "killers for hire" (mercenaries) CHOOSE to kill Iraqis for money.

[DistressedAmerican]

49. Thoreau Would Disagree. That is why he went to jail.

Myself, I don't have the spine to take on the IRS!

[bvar22]

56. Graciously conceed the point,

but not the illustration.
There is a huge difference between paying taxes and choosing to kill Iraqis for money.

However, by paying taxes, i DO assume some of the collective guilt.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rainy]

22. I know a man who works for Blackwater. He is a former

SEAL. He always talks about how much money he is making. I'm sure that is the reason HE is there. Can't speak for anyone else.

[Jose Diablo]

19. "Maybe the people killed Kent State deserved it", say what?

Hmmm, I cannot see the post that brought this statement out from you. Maybe this is a sarcasm statement, I'll give the benefit of doubt as to if you really mean the students shot at Kent deserved getting killed.

As for the merc's. Eventually these 'workers' will end-up back here. They will be in law enforcement, strikebreakers, security operators for corporations. There is always a 'market' for specialists in applying force to work some peoples will on others.

Like the Pinkertons, they also will be destroyed when they try to face down people that are starving. Like the Pinkertons, they will learn that any money they will have received, doesn't cover even closely what will happen to them.

What bothers me the most though, is how our very own government has turned to the 'guns for hire' for services. The agents of our government that are both profiting and hiring these merc's are the ones that deserve the most contempt. On them, there will be no mercy on that day of reckoning. There will be a day, you can take that to the bank.

[JDPriestly]

60. No one "deserves" to die,

however, everyone has the right to self defense. The students at Kent State were unarmed and killed by armed forces. That was cowardly and wrong. The question in Fallouja -- to which I do not have the answer -- is, whether the private security forces, before they themselves were killed, were armed and killing armed insurgents or armed and killing unarmed civilians, and therefore "murdering." I do not know which was the case. Killing unarmed civilians is despicable, killing in self defense, especially at times of war, as defined under the law is not usually considered to be despicable. I do not approve of mob violence under any circumstances, however, if the private security forces were armed and presenting a threat of imminent death or severe bodily harm unarmed civilians, the people of Fallouja may have felt justified in killing the private security forces in the absence of a proper judicial system. That still doesn't necessarily make the murders of the security forces right in my personal view, but in a court of law the killers of the security forces might actually be found to have been acting in self defense. We just don't have enough facts to know.

My concerns are about (a) the discrepancy between the pay and working conditions of the private security forces and those of the military volunteers; (2) the threat to our democracy from private security companies which, while at this time, may be serving our nation, have the right and could become international corporations, true mercenaries, out their bullying everyone including Americans. Do we really want private armies fighting each other by whatever means or with whatever weapons they can beg, borrow and steal. Isn't that what Al Qaeda and other terrorists do? Shouldn't armed forces be completely controlled by governments that have to answer for their whereabouts and actions? Don't we prefer that such organizations be managed and controlled by democratic governments? These are serious questions we should ask ourselves before the private security companies (and private unpaid militias) get out of control and take over our country (perhaps even our world) and our lives.

[JDPriestly]

62. If the story from ABC

that is linked to below is true and that the mothers of the security forces killed at Fallouja were told, we still can't determine whether the security forces were killed when acting in self defense or not.

[DistressedAmerican]

64. I'd Say It Matter Less What They Were Specifically Doing At The Time.

If they are willing they are part of the problem! I say all of these extrajudicial soldiers are culpable if just one does the killing of innocents!

Begs the old question "What if they threw a war and no one came?"

[goodboy]

6. these mercs. are paid for with our tax dollars....they've killed innocent

iraqi's, and get paid really really well. Some of them make more than 1000.00 per day. They know what they're getting into when they go to iraq, and they get off on killing. If a few mercs bite the dust, it's no skin off my ass.

[tubbacheez]

13. I think you've described a situation of

extremely high risk (in physical, emotional, and moral aspects) employment.


Given our classic American "free market" mentality, it's not surprising that a certain number of individuals would opt to accept such high risks in exchange for some acceptably high reward (e.g. in economic and political areas).




I personally am not particularly proud that this situation exists in my country.

However, there are several forces contributing to this situation, beyond the individual mercenaries. I cannot lay all the responsibility on them.

[goodboy]

21. I think money is incidental for most of them...they like to kill...period.

[tubbacheez]

31. Some probably do.

I would not dispute any assertion that private armies can provide an avenue for those predisposed to violence with a compatible occupation that expresses exactly those values.

However, I would also assert that there are also some opportunities for that expression in certain areas of the armed forces, the law enforcement industry, the prison guard industry, and organized crime.

Some people might contend that professional sports can offer additional outlets for socially ignored (it not outrightly sanctioned) violence.




The more important point is not about whether humankind has violent people. It does. The key issue is what to do with, not just these people, but with our cultural attitudes and dispositions on violence in general.

If we magically vanished every violent person from the Earth, I bet we would still see some violence committed by the remaining individuals within a couple years. There's something about the human living experience that continually suggests violence as a solution to certain problems we face.




So, yes, I'd agree with you that some (perhaps even many) mercenaries are far more open to violence than the typical civilian citizen.

But I view this fact as less of a statement about them individually, than a statement about humankind. These are not monsters, no matter how differently they live compared to me.

And I can imagine certain unfortunate twists of fate that could potentially put me or any of my very peace-loving friends into a similar mentality as these mercenaries.

[Zynx]

11. We should pass anti-mercenary laws in this country

South Africa did it, we can do it.

Make it illegal for companies based in the US to issue automatic firearms on overseas jobs, ban contracts using more than 12 armed personnel, etc.

That allows for bodyguards, but no bodyguard assignment needs more than 12 guys on it.

[Binka]

16. But But But The Arms Trade Would Suffer

And freedom wouldn't be on the march.:sarcasm:

[tubbacheez]

33. I don't think merc groups buy the bulk of military arms.

Sure, they buy lots of guns, knives, bullets... maybe a helicopter or some hummers... or even on a good day some geeky electronics (computers, GPS, video gear, night vision, etc.).


But the really expensive stuff... the high profit stuff... is still bought by regular national armed forces. The fighter jets, the various missle systems, ships and subs, networked radar systems, satelite stuff... all this is a much bigger chunk of the arms trade.

[Binka]

34. Did You Read My Post? It Was Sarcasm.

n/t

[tubbacheez]

35. Yes. I thought your sarcasm applied to freedom being on the march.

Sorry if I misread.

[DistressedAmerican]

38. I'd Say Both Apply!

[tubbacheez]

40. Yes, apparently that was what Binka meant.

I just didn't see it at the time of my reading.

[DistressedAmerican]

30. I Think That Is An Excellent Idea!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

29. Mercenaries deserve to stand in the dock of the ICC.

Then on to prison to join the other murderers.

[tubbacheez]

32. I'd agree with you only as far as those mercs who can be proven

in court of committing war crimes.

[chlamor]

36. Nominated

Our country is now geared to an arms economy bred in an artificially induced psychosis of war hysteria and an incessant propaganda of fear.

– General Douglas MacArthur

[DistressedAmerican]

37. One More Nomination Needed! Anyone?

This is important info to share!

[DistressedAmerican]

39. When It Got Posted To Greatest The Title Was Edited Down to Just

Here Are Some Facts on Blackwater Security.

Odd.

[countryjake]

41. Nightline did a show on Blackwater a year ago...

after the Fallujah incident; they went to the center in North Carolina & filmed some of the training facilities (which seemed eerily too similar to one of those Taliban exposes); much discussion of the pay scales & benefits, compared to the average GI; & ABC's inability to get certain questions about the operation answered...that is what struck me the most about Blackwater, how they clammed up when asked if any employees were involved in assisting military prisons or participate in interrogating techniques. That "Security Consulting" division seemed to be the fishy operation, with nothing known publicly about what exactly their "service" may be. Ole Ted did good that night!

Here's a story about two of the mothers of those hung from the bridge & what they've discovered about the company that employed their dead sons:

http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/IraqCoverage/story?id=650816&page=1

~snip~

"Based out of Moyock, N.C., Blackwater has been awarded more than $80 million worth of security contracts. Its owner, Erik Prince, a former Navy SEAL with influential family ties to the Republican Party, would not talk with ABC News for this report. His father, Edgar Prince, was a prominent Republican Party donor and helped Gary Bauer found the Family Research Council, a "pro-family" lobbying group. His sister, Betsy DeVos, is a former chairwoman of the Michigan Republican Party."

[DistressedAmerican]

43. Thanks For Posting This Link!

Anyone that is following this thread should read it right away. Good info on the internal workings of these companies.

If a mom of one of the guys killed can't question the company who can?

[countryjake]

55. Wish that Nightline show was available...

I've been googling to see if there are any snips from it online...I think it was the one called "Guns for Hire" but I'm not sure of that. I know it was on before CBS did the Abu Ghraib scandal & it made me wonder later exactly who all of our media were just sitting on that story. Hell, it might have even been a Primetime Live show, I know it was ABC, but that connection between "Non-Government Organizations" & prisoner treatment was raised before the rest of us knew about all those torture photos & Blackwater was definitely the subject. The scoop on CACI & Titan & those other NGO companies didn't come out until May last year.

I also remember a piece by Seymour Hersch about the rift in the Pentagon causing Rumsfeld & cronies to act on the need for "highly-trained, anonymous, unaccountable agents" to perform those CIA-like duties without providing any direct links back up the chain of command, in the event that any future world court may try & prove war crimes. Been googling but can't find it.

That's the problem...none of these guys can be held accountable, if they're ever even identified at all, & if there's a chance one of them might try to blow any whistles, they are easily eliminated. That video of the survivor from the helicopter crash being riddled with bullets, after clearly speaking in English to whoever was filming, "It's broken!" (meaning his leg) sure made me wonder & now the media is burying that part of the crash. Sorry, conspiracy theories aside, I have a hard time trusting any of these asses in control.

[Bozita]

46. Yep, owned by brother of Betsy DeVos (Amway)

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/05/11/private/print.html

Blackwater, the firm that guards Coalition Provisional Authority chief Paul Bremer, and whose men were killed at Fallujah, has hired the well-connected Alexander Strategy Group to guide it through the current publicity storm and help influence Congress on whatever rules are generated to govern private militias in war zones, according to the Hill newspaper.

Alexander may turn out to be a clever choice: Ed Buckham, former chief of staff to House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas, is Alexander's chairman. Tony Rudy, another former top DeLay operative, and Karl Gallant, who once ran DeLay's leadership PAC, are also onboard.

Blackwater also works other angles. One of the firm's founders is Michigan native Erik Prince, a former Navy SEAL. His father, Edgar Prince, helped religious right leader Gary Bauer found the Family Research Council in 1988. Erik Prince's sister, Betsy DeVos, is the chairwoman of the Michigan Republican Party. But Blackwater is a relative newcomer to the Washington influence game, especially compared with CACI and Titan, which have been trailblazers.

[YEM82]

42. Blackwater

Just a couple points about Blackwater or Global Risk or other such military contractors in Iraq, Afgahnistan etc. The Pentagon loves these guys since they a.) dont need to be trained, b.) DoD has minimal liability, c.) if they die, they dont count as US soldier casualties.

But remember, these guys aren't the same as you're average infantryman. All of them very highly trained, and not all of them are American. Blackwater, as well as other private security firms hire British and European commandos as well.

As for corporate executive salaries, that is without a doubt. Hamid Karzai's security detail is a private firm, and his closest guys get paid upwards of $300 an hour.

[Deb]

45. Their recruitment is odd

This company called my neighbor looking for his son who is an enlisted military police officer. All of us, including his son, wondered how they knew to call his parents and that his son's 6 year enlistment was about up.

They had personal info that made the family very uncomfortable. I guess the pay offer was supposed to dazzle them stupid.

[ClintonTyree]

47. Well isn't that just special...

these fun loving killers are making thousands a week and our own servicemen and women can't get armored vests. :eyes: The Pentagon sure knows how to stretch their war machine dollar!

These paid killers are all that stand between us and reviving the draft. I guess the Pentagon figures it's more cost efficient to hire killers than to train them. It's much more politically efficient as well. If they had to re-institute the draft, people would be rioting in the streets.

All part of the bush plan to keep dumb Americans happy, not thinking about the war, robbing the treasury to give to his buddies (how far is the Carlyle Group entwined with Blackwater?).....this entire war has stunk from the beginning. It's starting to REALLY reek lately. Why Americans voted this jackass and his pals back into office will forever haunt me.

[leftchick]

50. A Great Article from MoJo on Blackwater....

Soldiers of Good Fortune

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2003/05/ma_365_01.html

~snip~

Because the Geneva Convention expressly bans the use of mercenaries -- individual soldiers of fortune who fight solely for personal gain -- private military companies are careful to distance themselves from any associations with such hired guns. To emphasize their experience and professionalism, many firms maintain websites brimming with colorful PR material; the industry even funds an advocacy group, the International Peace Operations Association, which portrays military firms as more capable and accountable than the Pentagon. "These companies want to run a professional operation," says the group's director, Doug Brooks. "Their incentive is to make money. How do you make money? You make sure you don't screw up."

When the companies do screw up, however, their status as private entities often shields them -- and the government -- from public scrutiny. In 2001, an Alabama-based firm called Aviation Development Corp. that provided reconnaissance for the CIA in South America misidentified an errant plane as possibly belonging to cocaine traffickers. Based on the company's information, the Peruvian air force shot down the aircraft, killing a U.S. missionary and her seven-month-old daughter. Afterward, when members of Congress tried to investigate, the State Department and the CIA refused to provide any information, citing privacy concerns. "We can't talk about it," administration officials told Congress, according to a source familiar with the incident. "It's a private entity. Call the company."

The lack of oversight alarms some members of Congress. "Under a shroud of secrecy, the United States is carrying out military missions with people who don't have the same level of accountability," says Rep. Jan Schakowsky (D-Ill.), a leading congressional critic of privatized war. "We have individuals who are not obligated to follow orders or follow the Military Code of Conduct. Their main obligation is to their employer, not to their country."

Private military companies emphasize their patriotism and expertise, positioning themselves as a sort of corporate battalion staffed by ex-soldiers who remain eager to serve their country. Military Professional Resources Inc., one of the largest and most prestigious firms, boasts that it can call on 12,500 veterans with expertise in everything from nuclear operations to submarine attacks. MPRI deploys its private troops to run Army recruitment centers across the country, train soldiers to serve as key staff officers in the field, beef up security at U.S. military bases in Korea, and train foreign armies from Kuwait to South Africa. At the highest echelons, the Virginia-based firm is led by retired General Carl Vuono, who served as Army chief of staff during the Gulf War and the U.S. invasion of Panama. Assisting him are General Crosbie Saint, former commander of the U.S. Army in Europe; Lt. General Harry Soyster, former head of the Defense Intelligence Agency; and General Ron Griffith, former Army vice chief of staff.




At a camp in North Carolina, a private firm called Blackwater USA is training the U.S. Navy to fight terrorists, taking the place of military officers who used to fill such roles.

[DistressedAmerican]

51. Great Link! Thanks! Lack of oversight is my number one concern with these

folks! Great info!

[leftchick]

57. Check out these 'Bad Asses'

They probably think they are fucking Rambo...

[DistressedAmerican]

58. Good That They Work For US! For Now!

[leftchick]

59. I disagree...

I don't think they fulfill the job of security half as well as US Military personnel could and should be. They are full of BS and highly overpaid with my fucking money.

Did you know these Mercs are also training the new "Iraqi Forces". I can smell my money burning as I type.

[DistressedAmerican]

61. A Was Being Sarcastic. I Need To Use That Dripping Sarcasm Emomoticon

Clearly I destest tham and their M/O! Sickening!

[Just Me]

52. I still suspect these guys in the Nick Berg murder.

I can't help myself.

[DistressedAmerican]

53. That One Stunk To High Heaven! Don't Know Who. But, I Don't

think it was Zarquai!

[bvar22]

54. "Mercinaries" are the 2nd largest coalition force in Iraq!

Over 20,000 - 30,000 Corporate Killers are currently fighting in Iraq.
The number of independent contractors surpasses the combined number of ALL other coalition troops.

They do not represent the United States.

They are NOT accountable to the People of the United States.

They answer ONLY to their employers.

Their ONLY accountability is to their Employer,
They are NOT fighting for:
Freedom
patriotism
principles,
ideals,
truth,
National Security,
National Interests,
They are NOT defending America (or ANY country)

They are not bound by treaties that govern Government Forces.

The bush* administration has argued that they are NOT bound by ANY laws.

They KILL innocent Iraqi civilians EVERY DAY.

They are paid with YOUR TAX DOLLARS, but are NOT ACCOUNTABLE TO YOU!!


IMO, they are ALL CRIMINALS!
Even the contract truck drivers are participating in the LOOTING & THEFT of Iraqi treasure.
They are ALL WAR PROFITEERS!

"The number of civilian contractors who have been killed in Iraq is far greater than any other group over there other than the U.S. military itself," said Peter Singer, an expert on national security and Iraq military contracts at the Brookings Institution. He went on to point out that the number of private contractors in Iraq--estimated at 20,000 to 30,000--surpasses the number of troops there from all the U.S. allies combined.

link

[DistressedAmerican]

63. Coalition Of The Willing Baby!

Scary!

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cap]

66. they are hardly the "good guys"

they are under investigation in Chile for hiring ex-Pinochet "security forces" (you know, the guys who killed 10,000 civilians during the coup that overthrew Allende. The Chileans want Pinochet extradited from Britain on crimes against humanity). The Chileans dont want any of these "good guys" going overseas and doing likewise. The rumor is that in Falluja they were doing likewise -- kicking down doors and killing people randomnly and that's why those men were killed the way they were.

And it's not just Chilean "good guys"... They got South African ex-"security forces"... You know...the ones who treated the blacks so well under apartheid... This is why the South Africans had to do "Truth and Reconciliation" to try and heal the wounds after the atrocities.

I'm not sure if it was Blackwater or another "security company" that gunned down protesters against Chevron in the Niger delta.
Real fine recruiting grounds.

Start poking around at this company and it's not very nice. Yes,there are some ex-SF and other military. But there are no institutional controls on these people. In an earlier post on the company newsletter, a member gave "advice" to newcomers in Iraq. What to bring. What to wear and how to kill. In Iraq, just point the weapon at the person. If they dont stop, shoot to kill. This is complete against standard military doctrine where warning is indicated.

Most importantly, there are no legal and institutional controls. For example, in the military, if someone doesnt follow an order on the battlefield, an officer has the right to shoot him. There is a hearing and/or trial to vett this. If the officer is incorrect, he goes to jail. We are hearing about some troops getting tried for murdering Iraqis because there are rules about what you can and can not do. Where is the court and the military policemen for these contractors? They dont exist and this leads to a situation where there is an abuse of power. Good people can turn bad where there are no controls. Just because someone is ex-SF and functioned competently and ethically in the military does not mean that they will necessarily function the same without the appropriate controls.

Abu Ghraib was caught because a decent guy decided to report the goings on.... In the US military, we may have our problems, but, there generally tends to be someone with a sense of decency who reports these things and some action is taken to correct them.

Finally, it's a complete waste of taxpayer dollars... I know how these cost plus contracts burn tax payer money. If we need more SF, let's go and recruit more. If enough of our boys dont want to go, then our society is just not behind this ugly little war and we should get out.
If we cant get enough allies with their own SF to come on board, well, maybe we should just forget this whole Iraq adventure.

[DistressedAmerican]

67. Bye Bye Freep! Give Your Nonsense Vent Back At Free Republic!

I see tombstones in your future!

Bye!

[DistressedAmerican]

68. The Mods Were Moving Fast On This Little Troll. Good Work!

:toast:

[DistressedAmerican]

69. Friday Night Drinking Kick!

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DistressedAmerican]

71. Look If You Want To Post For The Zell Miller Democrats Go Ahead!

I just do not think it will be well received. Especially when you claim to be speaking for "real Democrats".

When you have 4 posts and come with right leaning comments that is what happens. It smells suspisiously like freeper!

I still see that you can post so, they must not have given you the big tombstone. I'd call you lucky.

For the record, I delete no one. If you have a problem with it feel free to take your complaints to the mods!

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[indigonation]

73. Oh - there's a lot more to this wicked web...

My apologies if this is already pointed out somewhere - I only scanned the posts...

Erik Prince, the founder of Blackwater USA, is also the brother to Betsy Prince Devos, married to Dick Devos, of the Amway corporate wing of the theocon cabal. They are a huge bankroll for - well all the GOP crime organizations, thinktanks, military interests, Christian Reich organizaions. To make matters worse, Betsy just stepped down as Michigan GOP chairwoman, and Dick, son of Rich DeVos, is considering a run for governor of Michigan. God help us!

Don't get me started. These people are very well connected, wealthy and dangerous...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=blackwater+prince+devos&btnG=Search

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=blackwater+prince+amway+devos

just search and ye shall find...

[sharonking21]

74. An old discussion I had with a friend

First let me say that I think the focus here on the individuals who hire on for this kind of thing is a little bit off the mark.

I don't think all of them are necessarily mad killers. Further, because, due to our lovely administration's incompetence in not foreseeing the need for numerous non-mercenary regular military forces in Iraq (given that they were hell-bent on their ill-advised invasion), civilian foreigners now in Iraq do need protection and that is what some of these "contract" soldiers do. Also, although of course they are attracted by the high pay, many of our regular military forces were initially attracted by a similar motivation--quite a few were just trying to obtain some economic security or education that they wouldn't otherwise have.

When the Blackwater contractors were killed in Falljah April 2004 I sent many of my friends this article, asking if they had heard of such a thing before. I was astonished. I previously had no clue. I sent it mostly to folks who had worked with me at a state health agency --people who knew the pitfalls of being forced into outsourcing using contractors.

Private Armies Take to the Front Lines
The security contractors killed in Fallujah represented a little known reality of the war in Iraq
By MICHAEL DUFFY

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101040412-607775,00.html?cnn=yes

Anyway, I think the real focus should be on this kind of outsourcing and the Bush administration's use of it. Here is why (this is an email I sent to one of my agency friends who basically said something like, "Oh, well, if you are going to recruit people to kill people, guess it doesn't matter too much which way it is done.")

My reply:

Well given my experience with contractors, it’s the wrong way to go about it for a democratic society.

First of all, it gives the government more latitude to engage in wars and other violence like coups etc. Normally the population looks upon the army etc. as their sons and daughters and tend to get mad over time if they are used inappropriately. They are unlikely to feel that way about contractors or mercenaries, especially since these are recruited not only from the US but also from many other countries (such as soldiers who used to work for Pinochet’s regime in Chile)..

Second it gives far too much play to our own government’s deniability if the contractors fail or go wrong. Especially given the low profile they have kept so far with these “contractors.” I think we really have to watch this given who is in power now—it’s all of a piece. I still believe the current administration poses a real threat of semi-evolutionary authoritarianism.

Third, it does not provide the civilian or military measures of control over their actions that having a standing army affiliated with an elected government does. Instead contract mercenaries, just as contract public health workers, can go far astray from what they were supposedly hired to do and with little accountability. But unlike public health workers, military (private or public) are intentional instruments of death and thus must be closely controlled.

Fourth I consider it an affront to those who HAVE signed up for our volunteer Army etc—why not just invest that huge amount of money in THEM—their salaries, training opportunities, bullet-proof Kevlar vests, housing, better retirement and health benefits, more of them if that is needed to keep the rest of them safer? It is not so much patriotism that has motivated them to join as it is an avenue to education and economic betterment (admittedly something of a deal with devil) and we need to at least live up to our promises to them—which we are not currently doing. Not to say they are not somewhat patriotic also and especially in terms of loyalty to their peers.

Also, we made a trade off when we eliminated the draft and decided to go with a very proficient volunteer force. The key to keeping them a very proficient volunteer force and avoiding having a draft is to invest in them, not in contractors/mercenaries. And drafted armies were found to be not particularly effective—do you know that in WW II, up to half of the men never fired their guns while in combat?

So, it’s easy to have a kind of “pox on all your houses” attitude given that both are associated with war and violence, but I think there are real differences with potentially negative feedback consequences on our society as a democracy and of course, on our ability and proclivity to be loose cannons on the world scene

[cap]

77. also, the use of contractors weakens Congressional Control

eom

[sharonking21]

89. Yes, good point

it does put an extra fighting force under the semi-control of the executive branch (I say semi because no one completely controls contractors) and without congressional control being exerted in any way other than perhaps trying to cut off the funding for it.

It also makes the body counts of US soldiers etc look smaller.

And although these forces are operating outside the USA, what if they were turned loose upon us? Sounds fantastic I know, but one of the main differences between our current situation re: fascism and that of Europe earlier is that we do not have roaming bands of paramilitaries supporting each of our major candidates and parties. See Richard Evans on the role of the Free Korps and bands like them supporting others, for example, in The Coming of the Third Reich.

[rman]

76. the actual mercenaries are not the main culprits

the real problem is with the corporations who start these private army enterprises and the government that allows it to happen.

the privitised grunts aren't innocent, but they are at the bottom of the piramid. why do so many here focus on them while ignoring the ones who actually pull the strings?

[DistressedAmerican]

78. Agreed That The Focus Is A Bit Too Much In The Individuals.

Several recent posts have brought up that point. It is true. The corporate "generals" that run these private armies make me ill sending folks out to kill so they can line their pockets.

But, it did come up in the context of the individuals killed in the recent helicopter shoot down. That is how the individuals focus started.

I would argue that you certainly cannot ignore the individuals. If there were no recruits to be has these folks wouldn't be able to maintain their private armies!

[cap]

79. some of the "individuals" are just rotten..

those chileans and south africans are real nice....

Im sure a few of our own arent too great either.. the US military hates these guys

[DistressedAmerican]

80. It Is Certainly The Individuals Pulling The Trigger!

There are also the assholes that started this ill-advised,poorly executed disater in Iraq! You Know, The Neocon Butt Weasles!

[rman]

81. US mercenaries aren't nice either but it's their bosses who call the shots

besides, the core issue isn't so much about who's nice and who isn't nice in that business, it's about the fact that such a business exists in the first place.

[DistressedAmerican]

82. Well Said!

[DulceDecorum]

84. Sammy the Bull agrees with you,

as do many other Mafia hitmen.

[DistressedAmerican]

85. I'm Confused. What Would Sammy The Bull Agree With?

the fact that the business should not exist at all? Huh?

[DulceDecorum]

88. Patriotism. Same goes for the other Sam.

http://www.subliminal.org/mugbook/crime/giancana.html

Volunteers are being turned away from the site as there are now enough workers for the space. But even the Mafia has joined the rescue effort. Accoring to the Daily News, Carmine Agnello, jailed son-in-law of Mafia chief John Gotti, has offered his $6m shredding machine, which can chew up steel beams.
Agnello, who is serving a nine-year sentence for racketeering involving extortion and arson, is the owner of the New York Shredding company one of the city's big scrap dealers. A letter from his attorney said that Agnello "felt the pain" and wanted to help.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,554891,00.html

[cap]

86. i'm being a little sarcastic when I say nice..

:)

But if you continue reading my posts I agree with you that this business should nt exist due to lack of accountability and Congressional control.

[sharonking21]

90. Oh I'm not saying no attention should be given to individuals

and in fact there has to be individual accountability in both the contractor/mercenary and regular forces.

I'm just saying that while it feels good to vent about them on an individual level, too much focus on that obscures or leaves little attention for analysis of the real political problems they pose to our society as a group and as an arm of the neocons. I think we need to do the analysis in order to have reasonable points to present to the public so we can have a hope of counteracting the trend.

[sharonking21]

91. PS

I just tried to add my vote for this as a topic on "The Greatest" thread but too much time had gone by. I'm wondering if it wouldn't be better not to have a 24 hour limit on such things. Often you don't know if it is going to be among the greatest until you see the quality of the posts that the OP engenders.

[entanglement]

92. Great post! I wanted to nominate you

but it seems nominations aren't possible after 24 hours
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[DistressedAmerican]

93. Thanks Just The Same! Glad People Were Interested.

It is a little pet irritation of mine!

:toast:

[chlamor]

95. '40'