I see the Virgin Mary image in the underpass and I am not "mentally ill".

[rene moon]

Even though I do see her, I don’t think it is a miracle---the image just happens to look like Mary.

But as a Mexican Catholic, The Virgin Mary is the patron saint for my community. We revere her and if some Latina mothers see her and feel compelled to pray about it----then what is the harm?

Life sucks for many as it is and if seeing The Virgin in everyday life is helpful, then just let them be.

I am not a practicing Catholic anymore and haven't been since I was 16 but this is one tenant of my old faith that I hold onto. The Virgin is a comfort to many in the Latino community and calling them crazy only pushes people away.

I would love to tell my Mom, sisters and aunts that you all think they are mentally ill. How offensive!!!!

Believe what you want or don't want but please, mentally ill? DU has really been sucking lately and I am disappointed.


P.S. I didn’t see her in the Grilled Cheese


Virgin of Guadalupe

[Goldmund]

1. Matcom and I see a giant vagina in the underpass

Do you think we're mentally ill? :evilgrin:

[RPM]

3. no - but perhaps a bit obsessed with vaginas

not that thats a bad thing....

[Goldmund]

54. Well, I really wonder...

If you ran a pixel-by-pixel comparison of the underpass image and an image of a vagina, and then you repeated the same process with a picture of Mary, I'd bet you that whatever program does that would find more similarities with the vagina image.

Which goes back to rene moon's point, and the thing is that saying that "this looks like Virgin Mary" is simply irrational. It hardly looks like a woman at all. And if it did, then why not, say, J-Lo -- why does it have to be Mary? If it's the shroud, then maybe it looks more like an Arab sheik...

I mean, it can look like a million things. Can anybody rationally claim that it looks more like Virgin Mary than it does like Osama bin Laden?

[China_cat]

10. I see a vagina there, too.

And I'm a heterosexual female. Go figure.

[mopaul]

14. i instantly saw a vagina

mark twain told the story of two men seeing the grand canyon for the first time. the first man fell to his knees and thanked god for such a spectacular awe inspiring creation, the other guy said, 'well i'll be goddamned!'

[NoSheep]

15. yep. that's what I saw.

[Goldmund]

16. Fuckin-a.... LOLOLOLOLOL

[Misunderestimator]

44. Me too...

well, not the heterosexual part.

[arwalden]

126. Sorry... I Wouldn't Know...

... I have no recollection of ever having seen anything like that.

[Straight Shooter]

66. I'm with the Georgia O'Keefe interpretation group

Heterosexual female here, I saw a stylized vagina. I don't believe I would want my photo taken with it, though.

[Catherine Vincent]

100. You know I was going to say that is what it looked like to me

but I didn't want to be the first to say it.:P

[RetroLounge]

20. I saw the Vagina Stain immediately...

What does that make me?

RL

[shadowknows69]

59. I second that

that's what I thought it looked like. maybe it's my non-catholic world view.

[Walt Starr]

98. That's what I saw when I saw the picture days ago in the Chicago Tribune

It was in the Trib a couple of days before it made the national news.

[bkcc]

2. Are there any pics or a link? n/t

[Discord]

4. To see a likeness or image in something isn't mental

illness. Now thinking that God put it there, or if that image starts talking to you... then yes, you have crossed over the psycho line.

[RandomKoolzip]

5. I worked at the coffee shop in Nashville where the "Mother Teresa

Cinnamon Bun" was discovered. None of the people who discovered this bun were religious in any way.

You don't have to be deluded to notice that certain object, stains, etc look like people.

You DO have to be deluded to worship them, though. That's just nuts and I think we can all agree to that. (C'mon, it's 2005!)

[rene moon]

7. But...

If people are going to go see what they think is her in the underpass and are compelled to do the rosary or place flowers, I personally don't think it is crazy.

I really don't---I don't beleive life is as black and white like people want it to be.

[RandomKoolzip]

12. Well....rock on then,

Whatever floats yer boat.

I, however, think that worshipping a stain on an underpass is kinda loopy.

[Tyler Durden]

27. "It was Jesus standin' underneath the bridge outside of San Antone..."

"As I gunned my Semi home to my baby's arms...."

Name that album Random, and win some o' that ol' Philipino Creamy comin' in Shorts and Quarts.

[RandomKoolzip]

29. Phil Austin, perhaps?

[Tyler Durden]

37. "Phil Austin presents 'ROLLER MAIDENS FROM OUTER SPACE."

That song is on side one, "The Television Mission."

The Roller Derby between Jesus Retardo and Nick Exxon ("Exxon swinging, Exxon punching, WHHOOAA can that little Jesus suffer so!") is no less than astounding.

I can't believe I stumped you.

[China_cat]

6. What is the harm?

The traffic there has become dangerous with all the people jamming in and cars slowing down to rubberneck. The harm maybe hasn't happened yet, but you can bet that it will. Someone will be praying and not watching where they're going and step out into traffic or there'll be a horrible traffic accident with many injuries and deaths.

That's what is the harm.

[mopaul]

8. true believers of any stripe could be turned on us

if bush told the bornagains to attack us, they would. if the pope told them to attack us, they would.

think i'm kidding?

...and i agree with you china cat, somebody is going to get hurt there, over a stain.

[rene moon]

11. No, they wouldn't

And Catholics are not bornagains. yes, there are crazies in everything out there but overall, they wouldn't attack.

"When Catholics Attack---Next on Fox!"

[Tyler Durden]

32. Two words: OPUS DEI

[rene moon]

36. Two words: So what

Has nothing to do with the Virgin.

[Bridget Burke]

51. Church officials actively discourage this sort of thing.

In the modern world, they generally try to ignore these informal visions. The intellectuals of Opus Dei would not be interested.

These visions come from the heart.

[cajones_II]

69. Two more

Pope Benedict

It's just germane to the coversation in a tangental way, and I want to get used to typing it.

[Tyler Durden]

78. Two more words: Point Missed.

The sub topic was crazy fundamentalists commiting mayhem at the orders of their "spiritual leaders."

Of course, if the "Virgin of the Overpass" starts telling you to start a JIHAD, then you don't need Opus Dei.

ALL religions have their crazy sub-sects. Just because you are or were Catholic does not infer membership, but I can assure you that there are many of us out here who fear them as they fear the White Supremacist/Christian Identity movement, the Militias, the Wahadists, and any other group that has preprogrammed members.

[Rich Hunt]

86. true believers

You don't have to be religious to be a dangerous and paranoid nutcase.

There are a number of them in corporate America.

Perhaps I should fear anyone who works for a corporation?

[jeffrey_X]

102. So...

do you really think a virgin gave birth?

[China_cat]

115. Then you have to ask 'which one'?

The mother of Mithra or Zoroaster or Buddha or Krishna? Isis giving birth to Horus? Jesus just seems to be the last in a long line.

[China_cat]

117. Then you have to ask 'which one'?

The mother of Mithra or Zoroaster or Buddha or Krishna? Isis giving birth to Horus? Jesus just seems to be the last in a long line.

[demnan]

9. You have a right to believe and think as you wish

but don't be over-sensitive when other people also express that option.

[rene moon]

13. Sorry but calling people mentally ill is wrong

I'm not being over-sensitive. People here are being assholes, that's all.

[demnan]

39. Well calling people assholes is wrong too.

So "he who is without sin, cast the first stone".

[Rich Hunt]

94. it's not merely wrong

It's incorrect. In fact, it's foolish, which gives me great satisfaction.

I can't believe that there are 'true believers' who refuse to entertain the notion that the whole thing is a hoax.

Says a lot about them.

[TahitiNut]

17. Are there PHOTOGRAPHS of the 'Virgin' Mary???

Since when is a vague resemblance to some painter's (or sculptor's) Europeanized depiction of the FICTIONAL appearance of the 'Virgin' Mary some kind of miracle?

I'd be willing to bet everything I own that nobody would recognize her identical twin if she were to wander through 1,000 churches during services.

[rene moon]

21. No, there's not

But most Latinos would know her. The Virgin of Guadalupe is dark-skinned, not the white Virgin of Europe.

[smirkymonkey]

22. Good point.

But try convincing people who think that Jesus looks like George W. Bush with long hair of that.

[Bridget Burke]

28. The Mexicans know the non-Europeanized Virgin.

Padre Hidalgo bore her banner in the fight against Spain and her image is still a powerful source of pride, even for some who've lost their faith.

[rene moon]

43. Great pic!

Thanks

[monobrau]

64. exactly

She looks pretty pasty for a middle eastern woman circa 33 B.C.

[Bridget Burke]

75. The Posada engraving makes her skin a bit pale.

Look at the original image & you will see an Indian lady.

[Sanity Claws]

18. I agree with your take on this

The image is a simple reminder of Mary and her virtues. She stands for peace and love and is not a "burn in hellfire" figure. I'd like to see more people be reminded of her in their everyday lives.
BTW, some people misunderstand. People are not worshipping the stain. I understand that the people at the stain see it as a reminder that Mary is present among us.

[rene moon]

24. Thank you!!!

That is what I was trying to convey---I couldn't get it our correctly---too worked up I guess.

:)

[Bridget Burke]

33. Are there no Goddess worshippers here?

Some of them have respectful but non-Christian ways of interpreting the Lady who keeps appearing all over the world.

[Sanity Claws]

46. I've noticed the resemblence between Mary

and the Goddess, too. I'm a former Catholic who has lately been attracted to spiritual matters. I've done some reading on the Goddess and see parallels between Mary and the Goddess. I see both as the embodiment of virtues associated with feminity. Our culture puts too much emphasis on the masculine and discounts the feminine.

[Bridget Burke]

67. Study up on the Black Virgins of Europe....

Some trace their roots back to Isis. I'm not currently religious, but I'm a bit of a Jungian!

[Sanity Claws]

93. Light bulb moment

I will do that research. So that's the origin of the black virgin in Poland. Never could figure it out.

[Goldmund]

80. Well, except...

...they believe there was something divine or supernatural in creating the stain.

That's what's nuts.

[murielm99]

19. I don't believe that you are mentally ill, or that your relatives

are ill.

If the Virgin is a comfort, then so be it. I understand the respect for her.

If DU gets to you take a step back. Take twenty-fours hours away from this place.



:hug:

[callous taoboy]

23. I see a wino under the overpass.

[demnan]

40. I usually just smell them

(Ewwwwwww!)

[Scurrilous]

25. I wonder...

...if the people who looked at this and saw the face of an old man were considered 'mentally ill?'

[Orrex]

30. Well, let's see...

Did they congregate around it and rub beads and hold vigils and pray to it? Or did they just say "hey, that kind of looks like a face" and then get on with their lives?

It's not the recognition of the image that suggests imbalance; it's the attribution of divine import to a mundane and inferential smear, outcropping, stain, or what-have-you.

[Scurrilous]

41. No...

...they just say "hey, that kind of looks like a face, let's put it on the state quarter."

Much saner than them idiots under the overpass.

[Orrex]

52. Not sure that that's relevant, but...

Point me to the nearest state-quarter-worshiping vigil, and I'll agree that it's just as wacky as congregating beneath a divinely dirty overpass.

Even those casual numismatists who've been hording state quarters don't collect them because they think that they're holy relics.

[aeolian]

35. No one prayed to that. No one prays to Rorschach tests either. (n/t)

[Orrex]

26. With due respect

By your own phrasing you admit that you don't actually "see her." The image (produced by mundane means) "just happens to look like Mary." IMO, your interpretation of this event therefore does not suggest a mental illness. You look at the stain, and you see a stain from which an arguably recognizable image can be inferred. For all I know, you might be as crazy as a loon, but I can't draw that conclusion based upon your assessment of the holy smear.

Do your Mom, sisters, and aunts actually believe that this is a specific manifestation of the divine? On what basis? Because they choose to believe it? And how do they distinguish between an allegedly evocative stain and a stain that doesn't look like anything in particular? Is any stain with a blue tint sufficient to evoke the Virgin?

Incidentally, if some Latina mothers feel compelled to pray to Mary, then I'd say that this compulsion is in itself a sign of some kind of mental issue. If they choose to pray to her, then more power to them; if they feel compelled to pray, I have to wonder why they feel that way.

[Bridget Burke]

31. They gain comfort from prayer.

Do you scoff at those who meditate?

[Orrex]

48. It depends

Do they meditate because they felt compelled to do so after seeing a smear on concrete?

[rene moon]

38. People are praying to the thought of her, not the image really

It is a reminder of what stands Mary for---love and peace!!!! And how we should have reminder in our everyday lives.

FUCK----THEY ARE NOT MENTAL! They are trying to hold on to some thing good in this shitty-ass world.

[Orrex]

45. Now that's different, isn't it?

The problem is that people are weeping and rending their garments over this "manifestation," just like they do every time a vague blue blob appears somewhere. They are not, for the most part, saying "this smear just happened to remind me of the Virgin." Sure, some people take it as a pleasant reminder, but they're not the ones I'm worried about. It's the ones who feel "compelled" to pray just because the photo-interference of motor oil happens to yield a light blue hue.

I have no problem with people who choose to pray, regardless of the nature of the reminder, even if I myself don't participate in that ritual. In fact, I applaud them for trying to hold on to the good, but I don't see any value getting all hopped up over a smear.

[Finder]

47. Shitty ass world?...

One of the primary reasons people become religious fanatics. Some deal with the way things are, others try to change it, and yet others focus on an afterlife in order to survive it.

Spirituality is a wonderful thing, religous fervor is not.IMO

[demnan]

50. But can't they pray to the spirit of Mary

without imaging they are seeing her image? Faith and belief must be based on what is abstract, not on supposed signs from God, right?

That way, they can always be comforted.

[Goldmund]

91. I think that it's thinking like theirs...

...that threatens to make this beautiful world into a shitty-ass one.

It's not a damn "reminder" and you know it. Those people who camp underneath that underpass and leave flowers and pray and weep think that there was a divine intervention of some sort to create that stain.

It's also plainly apparent to anybody with a grain of rationality that the image looks like a million things in no different degree to the way it looks like Mary. Vagina? Yup. Osama? Ditto. Think of more, I'm sure you can.

It is that complete abandonment of rational thought that is the threat which I refered to in the first paragraph. Those people will do anything and support anyone who manages to hitch on to their sick authority-seeking mechanisms. Their have rendered their own brains invalid. They are hooked to their "religion" like the Borg are hooked to their central system. Whoever can lay claim to that religion, whoever can succesfully convince them he or she is speaking in the name of thar religion, is free to lead them in any direction he or she wants. They have no judgement. They ask no questions. They are not mentally ill as much as they are mentally DEAD.

[Finder]

34. How do you know it is the Virgin Mary?

Seriously, why would you identify it as a person that no picture or description exists? In fact, was there really a person named the "Virgin Mary?"

You see...one must make a leap of logic, and to some who think in terms of logic, seeing Easter bunny, Santa, Satan, the Virgin, Jesus etc. is not a sign of good mental health.

Enjoying staring into the sky and making out animal shapes in the clouds is an exercise of imagination. Seeing images of people in foodstuffs, and overpasses can be an exercise in imagination as well but it can be downright scary to some when they see these images worshipped.

That said, there is a lack of mental health wellness where UFOs, ghosts and other wacky things are promoted as being real too.

An irrational mind is not a healthy mind.

There is a fine line between imaginative and delusional.

[Rich Hunt]

95. you make some good points

Seeing authenticity in an obvious joke is likewise delusional.

[Double T]

42. We All Might Be Mentally Ill; For Certain We Are All Nuts

Why Is Everybody So Serious About Images Of The Virgin Mary On
A Grilled
Cheese Sandwich, Between Window Panes, On A Highway Underpass
And The Like. Nobody Should Be Excited Until She Shows Up In
The Flesh And Blood
And I Hope She Doesn't Forget Her Passport. 

[Misunderestimator]

49. Who cares what anyone sees anywhere? I see something that looks

like a CYCLOPS in the paneling next to my desk... now I'm scared... thanks a lot.

[aeolian]

56. Just don't pray to it. You'll be alright. (n/t)

[amazona]

53. agreed I see it too

Well said.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[Double T]

57. "CONSERVATION" Should Be Replaced With "CONSERVATIVE"........

.....And "BIRDWATCHER" Should Be Replaced With
"BUSH SUPPORTER"

I Believe You May Be On The Wrong Website

[amazona]

141. what the--?

If you're objecting to my sig line, I am quoting the inimitable Mr. Mitchell verbatim. I do not change other people's words to suit myself, especially when they do such a fine job of putting foot in mouth on their own.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[rene moon]

55. Check out this link if you want to understand

http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/travel/jking/jkguadalupe.html

Even on the U.S. side, Guadalupe’s values and strengths continue to inspire her children toward change, fulfillment and honor. In the 1970’s United Farm Workers' head Cesar Chavez carried the banner of Guadalupe in his relentless struggle for economic justice for migratory workers.

Chavez and the UFW co-founder Dolores Huerta worked under the slogan "Si se puede" and the patronage of the Virgin, "She is a symbol of faith, hope and leadership," says Huerta.

"She has been incorporated into everything we do," Huerta added. "If she’s not there, you notice her absence right away." Today Mexican American women in Mexico and the United states are seeing Our Lady of Guadalupe in a new light, using her to demand and expect more from themselves, their jobs, their homes and their communities. Guadalupe is certainly up for this new role, as one woman said, "The virgin transcends all things. She is strength, and she is beauty, and she is wisdom and compassion."

She is the symbol of ethnic identity, uniting people of different races, religions and languages. She manifests, symbolizes and activates the power of the people. She is a cultural symbol of justice, unconditional love, union, belonging, family, home.

[moobu2]

60. Still don't understand why someone would worship a water stain

[grumpy old fart]

58. Thought it was pretty well documented that the "virgin" thing was just....

a result of an early mistranslation from Hebrew to Greek

[Finder]

61. Only to those who study rather than worship the bible.

Religious types don't want the facts.

[grumpy old fart]

63. I heard that.....You'd think if you're gonna base your world view on.....

something, you'd at least be curious as to it's basis.....demon haunted world, just like Sagen said....

[Bridget Burke]

72. The "Virgin" thing is only part of her title...

She is revered as a Mother to the people.

[grumpy old fart]

77. Why? I mean, what did she "do" other than give birth?

I guess she raised her son as a good Jew for all we know, but what else?

[rene moon]

79. Check out this link to understand why she is so revered in Latino culture

http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/travel/jking/jkguadalupe...

[grumpy old fart]

83. Bad link....or is it my use of firefox?

[Bridget Burke]

81. She's still capable of pissing off uptight WASPs!

Here's Yolanda Lopez's "Portrait of the Artist as the Virgin of Guadalupe." Informal, yes. But not ultimately lacking respect...

[Orrex]

88. Obviously

She manifested herself in the concrete of an underpass. Isn't that enough for you?

[rene moon]

73. whatever

sigh

[pissed_American]

62. And I see Virgin Mary in this pancake !!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=13770&item=6171318740&rd=1


Jus Keeeding.

[mopaul]

65. the flapjack of turin!

also keeeding

[youthere]

90. Looks like Darth Maul to me

Or whatever the hell that dude's name was in Star Wars Episode one.

[pissed_American]

68. Is this the underpass Virgin mary ??

http://www.azcentral.com/offbeat/articles/0419virginmary19-ON.html

[pissed_American]

70. Here she is in a rock

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1447&item=6171168561&rd=1#ebayphotohosting


I guess....

[youthere]

92. This one looks a little

like steven tyler from aerosmith.

[pissed_American]

71. Here she is in a piece of wood

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16710&item=5573855942&rd=1#ebayphotohosting

[rene moon]

76. So, what are you trying to prove?

I don't see her in the rock or tree stump.

[Misunderestimator]

85. The whole stump looks like Jabba the Hut to me.

[pissed_American]

74. And in a peanut shell...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=13771&item=6172106255&rd=1#ebayphotohosting

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[grumpy old fart]

84. Now, was that last "swipe" really necessary?

Let's keep it civil here...

[pissed_American]

87. Only for those who believe in natural occurrences construed as otherwise.

BURNT TOAST ?? I rest my case.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1469&item=5574085497&rd=1

[KittyWampus]

133. If People Take An Impression That's Formed From Gazing On Burnt Toast

and use it as inspiration to send positive energy into the world then that's a GOOD THING.

No, the only case you've made is that you're totally cynical and are only able to contribute to the NEGATIVE energy in the world.

For you, it's more important to shoot other people down who are praying for peace and justice.

And what the fuck does people SELLING things on ebay have to do with an image found in public where people can congregate together for FREE and praise the Divine Feminine as one?

[pissed_American]

89. Just one more ...

A pretzel ?

I`m getting thirsty.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=35826&item=6171511730&rd=1#ebayphotohosting

Just do a search for Virgin Mary on ebay an you will see a plethora of items.

[Neecy]

96. this thread is disgusting

I tend to stay away from religious threads, because I'm not religious and in any event these threads tend to be divisive.

This one, though, is just ugly. The original poster tried to explain the cultural significance behind the Mexican-American reverence of these virgin images, and I understood her point immediately.

She was immediately bombarded with multiple crude references to vaginas and women's breasts. How childish and offensive, not only to any hispanics who might be reading this thread, but to me as a woman.

Really over the line, and disgusting.

[thebigidea]

103. being half-hispanic, I suppose I should be half-offended

gnash! o wail! o woe! o how horrid, to mock those that see the image of a virgin or something in common household objects!

o how terrible!

I shall write an impassioned letter to the editor ASAP.

[rene moon]

104. Thanks for understanding my point

I am really disgusted with DU today. I was trying to bring understanding as to why in a Latino community, people woild be drawn to something like this---no matter how absurd.

Instead, I get childish comments. I could get really nasty and speculate that more than half the posters are white and really don't get it.

But, it would be a waste of my time.

And this is a "progressive" website----right.

P.S. I don't hate whites, but its been in my experience many Anglos laugh at this sort of thing. Or maybe it's just Americans in general.

Ok, I am taking a break.

[Bridget Burke]

109. Silly Gringos....

I'm pretty darn white but have lived in Texas most of my life. And my European blood is mostly Irish--so I've never been a WASP.

African-American (& Irish-American) writer Ishmael Reed coined the phrase "neuter-living Protestant" as a description of the type we see on display. They may leave their churches, but they can never get that stick out of their....

[Name removed]

110. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bridget Burke]

111. Xenophobia might be more like it.

I had no idea there were so many (modern) Minutemen posting here.

[Goldmund]

113. I'm not sure you understood my post

:)

[Bridget Burke]

121. No, I understood it.

Your world view is quite limited.

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rene moon]

114. You have every right to have any opinion you want

I am just angry that my well-intentioned post has become a mockery of itself.

As a Mexican-American, and all these anti-Catholic and anti-Mexican posts of late have made me reach my limit.

And I am as tolerant as they come----people can beleive, not believe, do, love whatever they want for their lives.

Sorry.

[Goldmund]

122. No need to apologize, I wasn't offended

and I know your post was well-intentioned. But I don't see any "anti-Mexican" posts. Please point me to one.

Do you actually believe that people who disapprove of this kind of thought or behavior would be any less disapproving if the people involved were white?

Actually, do you believe me when I say that this sub-thread we're in is the first time I learned that this had anything at all to do with any ethnic issues? I never even thought of what race or nationality they are. Nor do I care.

And, this isn't exclusive to Mexicans, or Mexican-Americans. One of the most famous "sightings" of Mary was in Croatia, in the 1980s, where people are as white as they come.

[rene moon]

129. The image in question

Looks like the Virgin of Guadalupe and the area of Chicago the image is at is in a Latino Area. So, since I can see the image, it looks like her to me.

The anti-Mexican posts have been the ones about the Minuteman project. I know people will say no, but they were there. It was alienating, to say the least.

Here's a pic of the Virgin of Guadalupe--she's dark-skinned (She looks different in the other places she's "appeared")



link: http://www.sancta.org/intro.html

[Goldmund]

132. Oh, glad you brought that up

Since, you see, in that whole Minuteman debate, I was on the "side" of those who thought that they were a bunch of redneck xenophobes. I'm not as quick as you are to call those posts who were supportive of those idiots "anti-Mexican", however. If you jump on somebody's race by implying that the only reason they hold a certain opinion is because they're not Mexican and they hate Mexicans, that is essentially no different from doing the same thing you're accusing them of. Argue against arguments, not against people. I didn't see a single argument in there that I thought was anti-Mexican, though I didn't, obviously, read them all.

So, I don't care what area of Chicago this stain appeared in. I don't want to know. We're not talking about anything ethnic here. We're talking about human thought; human thought, that is common for all of humanity. I have no lower (by my own standards of lower and higher, which are not absolute, of course) standards for Mexicans or Arabs or Africans than I do for whites. I have a certain (again, I stress, subjective) value system onto which I project all of humanity.

To do otherwise would be racist, IMO.

[rene moon]

137. Ok, you dont care what area it appeared in

However, the image looks like the Patron saint of Mexico!!! And because it appears in an Latin-area, all the people who know her that have flocked there have been Latino.

So to me, it is ethnic, simply for the fact that she looks like VoG.

I don't hate whites at all---I'm married to one but I do knoe discrimation. That's all.

[Goldmund]

139. Whoa -- who said you hated whites???

I said that to question somebody who holds an opinion because of their race, which is what you do when you call it "anti-Mexican" (implying that whoever holds that opinion isn't Mexican and has something against them), is just as racist, or xenophobic, as it would be to HOLD A CERTAIN OPINION out of xenophobia. That's all. It's a very common thing around here, and in general: it's an easy, cheap shot to make an argument and try to shut up your opposition (if you disagree with banning the word "bitch" you must be sexist; if you agree that Minutemen should be allowed to do what they're doing, you're racist -- etc, etc). People do it subconsciously, it's so common.

Now, it may be ethnic in this particular case -- but the arguments that people have made against it are in no way tied to the specifics of this case. They apply to many such cases -- the one in Croatia comes to mind, then we have the famous grilled cheese incident, and those are just the obvious parallels; my deeper point, which is blatantly abandoning your rational thought in favor of flocking around religious authority -- has many diverse manifestations. That's not a Latino phenomenon, or an American phenomenon, or a modern phenomenon. It's been around since the beginning of time in all cultures.

[Goldmund]

112. What do you have against vaginas anyway?

I'm not sure what arbitrary "line" you're refering to. Bringing in nationality and race into the discussion about foundations of certain kinds of thought is over MY definition of "da line".

Otherwise, let's defend the treatment of women in most of the Islamic world... After all, it's just "cultural".

Let's defend the culture of greed, materialism and instant gratification. That, too, is "cultural".

At one time, the aesthetic behind the inquisition was so widely spread that it could have been easily deemed "cultural" as well.

[Neecy]

131. what a red herring...

The original post, if you even read it, explained why some in the Latino community might be drawn to these images. That was the point of the entire post - I didn't just conjure up the issue of nationality or race. She was explaining her "foundation of thought" as a Latina.

The rest of your post is just self-justifying nonsense.

[Goldmund]

134. I don't accept anybody's foundation of thought as national or cultural.

Or gender-based or age-based. I only accept it as human.

And whatever my value systems are -- and I am a complete relativist, so I hold them subjective -- are projected onto the whole of humanity in my mind.

It's also a pathetic cop-out to just say "the rest of your post is self-justifying nonsense". How so?

"My foundation of thought as a Muslim is that women should be subservient." -- as you'll hear many Muslim religious fundies say (and Christian, for that matter).

Is that not cultural?

[Neecy]

138. interesting...

You don't accept any foundation of thought as influenced by culture, and then repeat a quote that does, indeed, represent a cultural foundation of thought. What's your point?

Again --- you chastised me for bringing culture and race into the discussion, when that was the original subject of the topic. I merely reminded you of that fact. If you reject cultural foundations of thought, then you must see the world in a rather dull shade of grey.

[Goldmund]

143. I didn't chastise YOU for bringing culture and race into the discussion

Actually, originally this thread was titled "are those who see Virgin Mary in the underpass mentally ill?", and the post made a mention that they were Latino or whatever. I personally had things to say about the phenomenon of seeing virgin Mary in a concrete stain (which is NO WHERE NEAR a Latino-specific phenomenon), and the pattern of thought that this kind of thing represents to me. I have nothing to say about the fact these particular people in this particular case are Latino. Everything I've said about this applies to their counterparts in Croatia, or other parts of the US, or to the many thousands of different manifestations of this kind of thought. I'm talking about the thought, not the people; especially not an ethnicity.

If you reject cultural foundations of thought, then you must see the world in a rather dull shade of grey.

I actually think the same of those who do see foundations of human thought as cultural; I think that they are brothers and sisters in arms with racists and xenophobes, different only in their aesthetic, not in fundamentals. But that is a different discussion.

[Neecy]

145. yes, it's true

The cult of Mary, if you will, is not limited to any one region or culture. Nor is religious fanaticism. If you're looking for a broad discussion on human behavior, that's fine. This specific post, however, was not a sweeping determination of the history of human thought that led people to an underpass in Chicago. It was why, in this *one* instance, she believed that her own cultural understanding would be useful to share, since those who were drawn to this location had been previously branded insane.

[Goldmund]

148. I'm not looking for a particularly broad discussion...

But what I had to contribute to this discussion -- whatever you may think of the value of that contribution -- is my analysis of the pattern of thought that leads to this kind of behavior. Her question was "are those people mentally ill?", and my answer in short was "they're more mentally dead than they are ill". Doesn't matter if this is somehow justified by their nationality or their part of town or their genetics or the clothes they like to wear. Irrelevant. I say the same thing about many other manifestations of this kind of thought, whether related to Mary or even related to religion at all; godess knows that if you shed literal parallels (Mary or even religion), you can find similar patterns in authoritarian communism, for example.

But it does irk me to put this kind of a stamp on an issue, and that's a frequent thing. You know, "My opinion is X. Do you agree? But watch out... This is an opinion that is associated with a certain <insert race, gender, nationality, religious affiliation>". In another post I mentioned our past discussion of the word "bitch". In that discussion, opponents of using that word readily called their opposition "sexist" simply because they didn't share their opinion. I've seen some of the same with recent discussion of Minutemen or the Pope. Regardless of what "side" I was on in those discussions (for example, in the case of Minutemen, I thought that they should be opposed, if not arrested -- but I didn't agree with those who thought that people who disagreed with me were "anti-Mexican" by default).

I think that it is a kind of bigotry that still survives. To say "I think women aren't as talented as men" is, very rightly, called 'sexist'; but to say "you only think this because you're a man" is somehow still allowed. It is bigotry nonetheless.

[Mr Rabble]

97. I believe in the tooth fairy. N/T

[pissed_American]

99. On a Credit Card receipt ??

Maybe she was maxed out.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16710&item=5574393997&rd=1

"She was immediately bombarded with multiple crude references to vaginas and women's breasts."

Nobody made any crude references to vaginas and womens breasts. Appearantly these are the items she has appeared on/in. Are you calling THESE people mentally ill ??

Just callin` `em as I see `em


edit for link

[rene moon]

105. Whatever

[Neecy]

108. huh?

Nobody made any crude references to vaginas and womens breasts. Appearantly these are the items she has appeared on/in.

Bullshit.

This thread has been, for the most part, nothing more than crude mockery of a well-intentioned post.

[Cleita]

101. I see images of stuff all the time, not necessarily the Virgin Mary,

in rock formations, clouds and many other venues. Some psychologists have suggested that humans subconsciously try to find human faces in objects and if the object presents a close approximation, then you see them.

[earth mom]

106. I think you're looking at a knee jerk reaction...

a backlash at the hypocrisy of the religious right-because quite simply, many of us have had enough of it.

And IMO, for all those so called Christians to go out of their way to see what they think may be the Virgin Mary etched on a concrete underpass given that they are at the same time ignoring the fact that many people actually LIVE underneath overpasses just like that one all over this country, is just more of the same hypocrisy.

Maybe, just maybe, that is what the Virgin Mary of the Underpass is trying to point out to them.

[Neecy]

123. yes, it is

I'm gay and believe me, I know all about religious hypocrites and the very real danger their zeal represents to my very existence.

What I've seen here, though, is zeal that's not very attactive, either. Someone tries to explain why Mexican-Americans - you know, the group whose votes we desperately need if we'll ever put together a successful electoral coalition - are drawn to these virgin images. I lived in hispanic communities in Los Angeles and I knew exactly what she was talking about, and she made a good point. She wasn't advocating mass visits to these images. She explained the attraction to them, from her point of view. Personally, I enjoy learning about different cultures, don't you? Isn't that a component of liberalism?

But she was attacked like chum by sharks. Mocked, laughed at, given a long thread about vaginas. Fine. I don't like religious zealotry either, but I also respect the intent of the original poster and I don't flare into the stratosphere at the mere mention of religion, especially when its intent is to further understanding. This thread is as nutty and over the top as most of the fundies.

[Bridget Burke]

140. Yes, it's a fundie thing....

The most rabid of Fundamentalists hate Catholicism because of the pagan themes co-opted by the Church. Smash the stained glass, break the statues, forbid all ceremony!

With all the real problems one may have with the Church--& the new Pope--why do these fundy fools attack the best parts? They're nervous about any spiritual depth. Some of them have left their churches, but they still have a narrow view of reality. And, in this thread, a xenophobic view.

[NNN0LHI]

107. I spoke to the Virgin Mary last night

Right after I had a conversation with Christ. She and her son both told me that the stain on the underpass wall was caused by several wino's trying to see which one could piss the highest. I swear to God this is true.

Hope you don't think I am mentally ill because I have regular conversations with all of the characters from the bible. Tonight I will check with Moses and see what he has to say and I will get back to you tomorrow on this.

Don

[Rocketdude]

116. Very Mature

You folks mocking the OP have all the maturity of a 4 year old. It was a sincere attempt to explain some peoples beliefs and all you can do is ridicule her and her beliefs. Shame on you all.

[NNN0LHI]

124. Hey pal. You are the one ridiculing my beliefs

And I don't take that shit lightly either. I meant every word I said. And I think you had better cut the shit out too. Ask around the board here. I have regular conversations with God among others.

Don

[Rocketdude]

118. Sorry dupe

[KittyWampus]

135. At Least If It Was True We'd Know You Still Have An Imagination & Sense

of reverance.

Oh, but you were trying to be clever...

Nevermind.

[NNN0LHI]

147. Never mind nothing

You know, it is really insulting to me when some people begin questioning my beliefs. I didn't insult yours or anyone else's beliefs here, and for the life of me I can't understand why you are questioning mine.

We may disagree with one another on who is right and who is wrong, and I find no problem with that. But when someone begins accusing me of something that is is just not true it really hurts me to no end. But if thats what you enjoy doing, don't let me stop you. Just carry on.

I hold no grudges against anyone. So take care and all the best to you and yours.

Don

[brooklynite]

119. Can I ask a simple question?

Why are these miraculous appearaces always of Mary? Why not Jesus or the Apostles or any other Saint in the hierarchy?

[texanwitch]

120. how about Jesus on a frying pan

www.theneworleanschannel.com/food/4150919/detail.html

and

www.screendoorjesusthemovie.com

[maveric]

127. I personally think that people see what they want to beleive that they see

BTW, I'm Catholic.

[KittyWampus]

128. To All DU'ers Mocking This- Would You Mock A Picture Of Someone's Beloved?

The image isn't as easily made out in some photos but is definately there if you look at the other photos and use your imagination.

What difference does it make if it's an image of a beloved figure seen in a water stain, captured in a photograph or rendered in a drawing?

What is important here is the spirit of what the image represents and the emotional outpouring it inspires.

These people are displaying reverance for the Female Principle, something that is under attack daily in the modern world.

The image draws people together to express some positive energy.

Isn't that a good thing?

So what it's a water stain. It could be a stained glass window in a church or painting in a museum or statue in a garden.

Would you think someone was insane for carrying a photo of their spouse and kids in their wallet?

Would you laugh at someone who has a photo of their family on their work desk?

Would you mock someone who travels with a photo of their beloved and puts it next to their bed in a hotel room?

I did that when traveling to Germany, brought a pix of my cat and put it next to my bed.

The 'insane' or out-of-balance behavior isn't people taking time out of their daily lives to gather with others who want peace and healing and a touch of the sacred in the world

[Bridget Burke]

130. In another thread, someone's celebrating the end of patriarchy...

But they're using the language used in sociology class, so they're AOK! Of course, the prehistory they're talking about has not been borne out by the archaeological record, but they're getting a lot of respect. Someone defined "paradigm" for me--but how much does one weigh?

The appearances of the Virgin (or whatever you call her) definitely relates to the need for the Female Principal in our society. (Hey, I took sociology & anthropology, too!)

And the specifically cultural power of the Virgin to Mexicans & Mexican Americans is very real.

[KittyWampus]

136. Fellow Cultural Anthropologist Here. Maybe We Need An Awakening

of the Female spirit culturally.

Maybe the Catholic Church in American SHOULD divide and a new Church formed around Notre Dame.

[Bridget Burke]

142. I say, keep the National Shrine in Washington....

Toss out a few of the clergy....

www.nationalshrine.com/site/pp.asp?c=etITK6OTG&b=106948

The basilica is a gaudy neo-Byzantine edifice with numerous chapels--each dedicated to a different Virgin. Well worth a visit.

[theboss]

144. I do find it interesting where these appearances always take place

I personally don't think that anything miraculous is happening, but I understand why it happens for some, particularly those in a threatened economic, social or racial class. If your life in this world is full of strees, pressure, and fear, it's comforting to know that someone in the next world is looking out for.

My grandfather never drove anywhere without prayer cards attached to the visor.

PS. The rest of this thread is ugly nonsense.

[aaronnyc]

149. We're supposed to make fun of those people- get with the program

When impoverished people in Latin America get a little solace in their life by looking at an image which they perceive to be of the Virgin Mary - we are either supposed to say they are mentally ill, or make fun of them and tell them their deity looks like a vagina.

You are supposed to make fun of the OP - I mean she asked us to have a little understanding of different cultures and ideas. Who the hell does she get off?

And BTW, we really don't have time for your liberal nonsense about race, class, and general regard for the poor and underprivileged.

:sarcasm:

[Coexist]

146. how do you know what she looked like?

[Moderator]

150. Locking.

It's time to take a break from this one...