Seeing saints in grease stains: Holy visions, or Mental Illness?

[mopaul]

and as others have recently pointed out, how shall we speak of these people? i assume you can't reason with them, and as long as they aren't really harming anyone, i say hallucinate on.

but is it inappropriate to ridicule them? is it coarse and brutish to call them crazy? is this some form of mental illness?

if you told your psychiatrist that you were seeing images of jesus and mary in a grease stain or a bagel, he'd recommend prozac. but if you are a devotee of a sect, you get a pass.

i see them as sad, and somewhat dangerous.

[Cuban_Liberal]

1. Do we actually need a 2nd thread on this?

:eyes:

[QC]

19. You can never have enough threads mocking religious people.

Get with the program, dude!

[mopaul]

20. i didn't mock them, i asked if we should mock or take them seriously

so you'd say i shouldn't mock them. ok

[Inland]

24. Yes! It's easy, and fun, and it lets me feel superior

to the people who refuse to believe democrats when they parachute into their neighborhoods every four years and tell them that democrats are on their side.

[RPM]

2. lacking a grasp of reality

too bad it will probably kill others before it kills them

[zanne]

3. Desperation

It's desperation for something to believe in.

[undergroundpanther]

7. This world is cruel

To some people ,and it's hard and it makes no sense and since is is they seek a different world, one where kindness and miracles occur for them too..Not just for the rich.
Sometimes hallucinating a miracle is one way to feel like you too are in touch with something that is bigger than what oppresses you,poverty,illness,rejection,.

For all the glorification some people do for their cherished unrealistic concept of struggle, strife and competition ..remember every winner requires a loser and it hurts to be on the short end of the stick~always.Wind up on the short end enough times for no reason that you can understand you will look for miracles. I mean what does the lotto exist for and why do mostly poor and less than rich people gamble on tickets? Looking for a miracle.And escape from a human condition none of us made but for some reason are unwilling to change.The same rich corrupt people lead the same people suffer.The hierarchy that hurts stands.Humans cannot cope with large scale cultures.Yet we insist on building them even when they hurt us and our planet and let leaders get away with torture rape and plunder.

[zanne]

15. This is the part of religion I understand.

I used to be attracted to religious people because of their kindness and their willingness to admit to feeling lonely, isolated and vulnerable. I think that's something we all share as humans. A little while ago, though, something changed and made everybody mean. Politics and religion were thrown together, and both were corrupted. There are still some of the genuine religious people around, of course, but far too many times what I hear from religious people now is meanness to those who don't agree with them. That, in turn, has made me mean. I don't want to be, but I can't have reasoned discussions with these people.

[all.of.me]

9. took the word out of my mouth

but i'll add that it's for something to believe in besides THEMSELVES!

[Straight Shooter]

81. I agree, with an addition.

It's desperation for a sign of something you have invested your belief in.

"Oh ye of little faith ..."

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bridget Burke]

5. If nobody is hurt, what's the problem?

Sometimes the mad see what others miss. The majority of these visions are pedestrian. But not all...




Of course, feel free to prefer a Norman Rockwell world.

[chickenscratching]

78. i like your comparison

but i think it's a rash one comparing van gogh to seeing a holy face in your soup.

[Ganja Ninja]

6. I see it as an opportunity to cash in ..

on those stains in my underwear. :evilgrin:

[megatherium]

8. Not mental illness, a normal and predictable human trait.

Humans have an incredible ability to recognize patterns. You can identify an image flashed in your vision for 70 milliseconds. It is not surprising that humans see patterns where none exist. This is known as pareidolia. It's the source of many a crackpot theory or pseudoscience.

[aaronnyc]

18. Similar to images seen in the alignment of the stars or in clouds

While the mind recognizes patterns extremely well, it all too often sees them where none really exist. If it sees the beginning of a pattern, it assumes that the pattern continues, and exists in full.

BTW, thanks for giving a rational and scientifically based analysis for this this phenomenon, instead of simply engaging in knee-jerk name calling.

[Orrex]

22. Well, that's the whole trick, isn't it?

The mental illness isn't in simply seeing a pattern resembling some face, figure, or image; the mental illness lies in attributing to that inferred image some transcendent or mystical significance.

[tigereye]

35. looking for the transcendent

is not necessarily a mental illness.

[Orrex]

41. Maybe not necessarily

I guess that the search isn't particularly nutty, but some people's apparently ovepowering need to find it strikes me as unhealthy.

Besides, I don't know how a finite, fallible being would confirm that an experience of perceived transcendence really was transcendent as opposed to just plain crazy. I mean, if I saw an evocative smear of grease, I'd say "My goodness, whan an evocative smear of grease," and that would be the end of it.

[tigereye]

94. and not technically, either

:) I think there is a line. These folks aren't hurting anyone, abandoing their lives, or not going to work. It is a bit absurd, but people find some form of solace? where they need it, I suppose.

I think Bernadette in the grotto was more powerful, but most of us don't live in bucolic settings anymore... :)

[Discord]

116. looking for it isn't... finding it is... when its not really there.

[BurtWorm]

62. Seeing patterns in randomness is not mental illness, I agree.

Nor is wishfully thinking that the patterns you see are a mystic sign from an unseen world. All it is, for most of those partaking of the phenomenon, is pareidolia, as you say, and wishful thinking. Or cognitive dissonance (for those who don't see the pattern but believe they should) and wishful thinking.

[donsu]

86. in other words - not in touch with reality

nt

[BurtWorm]

88. In touch with their imaginations, to be more polite.

;)

[Zynx]

10. Same as inkblot tests

The human mind tends to assign shapes to things that do not necessairly have a clear one.

[smirkymonkey]

99. Once, when I was going through a very dark time, I saw skulls in

everything: bathroom tiles, clouds, window streaks, etc.

I think sometime the mind can project it's deepest wish or fear onto phenomena in the outside world.

I eventually got through that period, and I haven't seen a "skull" since.

[Ariana Celeste]

131. I hear that, man

I went through a similar "phase" so to speak, where I could "see" spirits (to me seeing them was to see the air ripple or a sudden movement in the corner of my eye, but I was convinced) and feel them; a sudden change in temperature or a breeze inside my home.
I was in a constant state of stress and depression; these "spirits" gave me comfort and something to believe in; I was able to believe something was there that cared. Eventually I changed the environment I was in (moved out of state) cut contact with the people who made my life hell... and I haven't "seen", "felt", or "sensed" a spirit since.

Sometimes people really *need* something to believe in to get by, to feel normal, to feel cared for, to feel like they belong here. I for one can't blame anyone who goes through it. Life can be very hard at times; people can be very cruel, and cause one to feel worthless- which is what caused me to start "seeing" things in the first place.

[Inland]

11. Nobody ever went to war over an image that wasn't there.

People died because rational, hard nosed, proof demanding people just knew there were WMD in Iraq.

Nobody ever died because somebody saw Jesus in his pancakes.

Sad, yes. Dangerous? Doubt it.

[mopaul]

14. dangerous in their predictability, & because they are easily manipulated

it makes them irrational, and it spills into all of our lives.

seeing prophecies, visions, i just hope they are never turned against us non believers.

[Inland]

23. You are telling me these people are dangerous? Now YOU are seeing things.

Look at them. They look dangerous to you? They look powerful to you? No. They look weak and pathetic, and last time I knew, those should have been OUR people.


For weeks I hear that catholic doctrine is an important poltical issue because it is powerful and poltically active, and we must all debate its beliefs. Now I am supposed to fear a bunch of hispanic mothers huddled in a dirty road underpass in the city, and we have to debate their beliefs, too, with the added insult of calling them dangerous.

Now let's all go wonder why we lost Kansas, when the answer is pretty clear....liberals can't mind their own business. Again.

[mopaul]

26. my born again sister in law swore a goat was demon possessed

on my dad's farm. she swore up and down she saw the devil's eye in the goat, and would have nothing to do with the goat. no one could convince her it was just a plain goat.

now if you have a few million people beieving that armagdddon MUST occur because of biblical prophecy, you are talking about dangerous people. it takes exactly this type of zealot to make a war against another religion or sect or group.

they are unstable and dangerous and there are millions of them.

[Inland]

32. You didn't look. Instead, you talked about someone else.

Anyone gearing up for war is dangerous. But you didn't pick out people gearing up for war, nice secular types like Rummy and Wolfie. You picked on poor people in an underpass, and invited a thread of mockery.

Your target isn't war, therefore, it is religion and the religious, and specifically, some poor fools in a smelly viaduct. You ignore what is actually dangerous in order to focus on what isn't. Maybe the religious aren't the only people who are capable of self delusion.

[muriel_volestrangler]

106. Looks more like Rasputin to me

[aaronnyc]

25. There are a ton of pseudo-sciences which liberals believe in

Why don't you start a post tomorrow attacking astrology, psychics, and scientology. IMO they are all just as irrational as religion. If you want to be consistent, then everybody who believes in these pseudo-sciences should be considered just as dangerous as you believe that the people who are deciphering images of Mary and Jesus in grease stains are. Maybe you should start a thread tomorrow, asking if people who believe in astrology are mentally ill.

Your inability to allow people to believe whatever the hell they want, is similar to the fundies who are constantly trying to impose Christianity on non-believers.

[Cuban_Liberal]

27. Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

:thumbsup:

[Inland]

28. Your point is spot on.

It's not that it is irrational. If irrationality and gullibility were really a cause for concern, we would have a post a day about astrology or crystals. Heck, we would have a post a day about Islam or Judaism, at least. One poster said that christians shouldn't have any more respect than astrology in DU. I said that most of them would leap on that deal, since astrology isn't trotted out as a danger to mankind but left with a benign neglect.

It is because Christianity is considered a repubican irrationality, a conservative irrationality. If that were true, I'd hate it. But it isn't, not yet, but it can be made so if liberal dems make it very,very clear that they can't tolerate it.

On edit: No pun intended.

[aaronnyc]

43. Exactly. Threads like these make it so easy for Republicans

People here always complain that Republicans politicizing Christianity (which is true), but they fail to realize that liberals have done their part to make this strategy successful.

By us perceiving Christianity as a political threat, then Christianity necessarily becomes political. If liberals could just shut up about Christian's personal religious beliefs, then Republicans wouldn't be able to make such an issue out of it.

[mopaul]

45. i'll just shut up, you take over

let's ignore the number one threat to our democracy, and be civil

[Inland]

51. The number one threat--that would be the viaduct people?

Or is it all religious people?

Or is it religion? Or just Christianity?

Make sure you let them know in no uncertain terms, so that we can all gaze at the irony of threats to democracy being democratically elected AGAIN in 2006 and 2008.

[mopaul]

54. let them be themselves, i ain't gonna kiss their asses though

and don't blame our loss of elections on our anti religious attitudes, that's a myth.

[Inland]

64. Your anti religious attitudes. And it doesn't help.

And looking for votes isn't kissing ass. Why not let the democrats and liberals who can do it go ask for their votes without the baggage of whatever religious thing you got going? Hey, thanks. I'd like to see a democrat win someday, with the votes of those viaduct people.

[mopaul]

69. do the viaduct people vote?

then we desperately need them on our side, just like reagan needed the born again crazies.

[aaronnyc]

76. No, please write the DNC with your campaign strategy

Let's hope the next Democratic presidential candidate runs on the theme of - "Christianity: it's a mental illness."

I mean, what the hell are we doing winning states Midwest states like Wisconsin anyway?

[Inland]

48. Indeed, DU makes Bauer's fundraising letter.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3515221

[mopaul]

49. oh my god! gary bauer is going to punish us so bad

we should tremble in fear of the masculine challenged gary bauer

[Inland]

56. Well, he isn't as dangerous as those viaduct people you are scared of.

I mean, raising money, backing candidates, actually installing a theocracy--let's give him all the ammunition he needs because those viaduct people are too dangerous to leave alone without a good DU slam.

What an irony. You say the danger of the viaduct people is that a Bauer type can mobilize them, and then you poo poo Bauer as nothing.

Why not step off the treadmill now?

[mopaul]

57. i'm losing you here

sort of lost your train of thought there and drifted off a bit.

fuck gary bauer. what do you see right now in your croissant?

[Inland]

60. I think you understand fully.

It's just not the way you wanted the discussion to go. You wanted it to be a fun thread mocking other people and instead it turned into a political one where you are on the defensive for your bad politics.

No reason to pretend to be dense, unless its another irony you are going for. Just hop off the treadmill.

[mopaul]

61. i think i love you

so what are you so afraid of?

[Inland]

65. Not the viaduct people, so much.

Think about that, now that you are off the treadmill.

[Discord]

123. I just gotta know. did you learn the term viaduct today?

you've used it unceasingly in nearly every single post you've made. I mean, its a cool word and all... but like a broken record or pizza for 7 days straight... gets kinda annoying...

just saying. theres a whole dictionary full of cool words.

Or is trying to meme a word out to "prove" a point or theory you have that a known ultra-liberal forum which has a relatively small contingent of people who seem to be outspoken against the wrongdoings of MANY religious leaders and people across this country is somehow going to have any effect whatsoever on the large scale scope of a general election... I don't think so. Sorry, I'm sure the Admins appreciate that you think this site is so crucial to Dem strategy, but alas... allow me to be the one to break it to you...

Its not. Outside of our ranks.. We have as much literal credibility to Repugs or conservative christians as FR has to Dems and Liberals.

Most people realize that the real value of DU is in the information and current events you can keep up with easier and in one location. That alot of the posts here are just frustrated people venting off some steam.

Sometimes people, myself included, may step on someones toes. You can't expect a population of over 66K people to all agree with everyone else, even on liberal or democratic issues.

[Inland]

126. Maybe you don't live in a city.

Maybe you don't live in Chicago. That's what we call it here.

But hey, how can you expect a population to agree on a vocabulary?

[Batgirl]

55. so it was mouthy liberals

that abducted GWB, flew him back to D.C., duct-taped a large feather quill to his hand and forced him to sign the Schaivo legistlation?

[aaronnyc]

72. Bush doesn't think a stain on the underpass is a sign from God

This thread is about people who think that these images are a sign from God. These are generally working-class people who are precisely the one's who Bush screws over. However, by liberals like you, continually linking them with Bush, they begin to link themselves with Bush, and vote for him despite having economic interests to the contrary.

[Batgirl]

74. Bush was sucking up to them long before

he was even a blip on my radar.

[Inland]

101. Big time. But that's not the point.

Bush's efforts are overreaching and many religious will go democratic. No sense letting any sense of superiority get in the way of that.

[muriel_volestrangler]

110. Many of us attack astrology whenever it peeks out of its own DU group

because it is a load of claptrap, from which various con artists make outrageous sums of money by preying on the gullible. The same will go for crystals, psychics, and related industries.

The point is that we don't get posts in the main parts of DU that advocate these things. When news stories appear about them, we'll take the piss mercilessly - I guarantee it.

[Bridget Burke]

34. How about "pagans"....

Who believe 19th & 20th century concoctions that have almost nothing to do with Prehistoric religious practices.

The people seeing the Christian visions are not the ones looking for political power. But they're often poor & often non-white. They lack plane fare to sit gazing through the fence at Stonehenge, imagining Druids who had nothing to do with the monument.

[Batgirl]

39. I would be just as skeered of the aforementioned

groups, except I'm not aware of any organized efforts by them to grab political power and turn the U.S. into a theocracy.

[aaronnyc]

50. If this thread was about Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson I would agree

However, it is about a bunch of individual people who want to believe that a grease stain is an image of the Virgin Mary. These people are not trying to turn the U.S. into a theocracy. We have to stop confusing evangelical political leaders with everyday people who are Christian.

The vast of America is Christian; the vast majority is not, however, "part of an organized effort to grab political power and turn the U.S. into a theocracy." But by accusing them of being part of some effort to turn the U.S. into a theocracy, they have this weird reaction of getting offended. This is what gives them notions that "Christianity is under attack by liberals", and what makes them vote for Republicans - who don't associate their religious beliefs as being a threat to undermine the Constitution.

[Batgirl]

52. they are also a powerful voting bloc

or are you saying they have no power?

Who was it that Bush/Delay were trying to placate over the Schaivo case?

[Inland]

59. They are a powerful voting bloc

because they are easily mobilized by demagogues who are able to accuse dems and liberals of being anti-them. Funny, one would think that being a "powerful voting bloc" would mean that you would, in a democracy, RESPECT THAT POWER and HUMBLY ASK FOR THEIR VOTES rather than drive them to whatever charlatan gives them an ounce of respect.

I mean, look at these people in the viaduct. These should be OUR people. How about giving them a chance?

All one would ask is that DU not give the Bauers a whole lot of justification and ammunition by mocking religious, by tacitly agreeing that religious people can't be liberal or democrats, or by out and out making shit up. Give these people half a chance to hear us out.

[Batgirl]

73. Look at the Schaivo case

Some variation of "the viaduct people" camped outside the hospice and put on a spectacle that the vast majority of citizens reacted to with great disapproval.

The president openly sucked up to this faction when he flew under cover of darkness to sign the legislation calculated to win approval of these oh-so-important constituents.

His approval numbers then began to plummet.

Apparently, most people are turned off by extreme religiosity, at least when it's followers seek to impose their beliefs on what should be personal and private.

Most people, who are by definition moderate in their political and their religious beliefs, don't react well to displays of extremism. These are the people we need to win elections.

[Inland]

97. No argument except

with the wave of the hand that made them a variation of the viaduct people.

Those were political people on a political mission that needed to be battled on political terms. They were extremists POLITICALLY.

So most moderates don't see any attacks on the tactics and the religious motivations in Schiavo as an attack against them. Certainly it scores points to show that they are manipulated by their faith due to the bad motives of frist and delay. It was a really good issue (without minimizing the pain of all actually involved in a tough decision as opposed to parachuting from DC)

The viaduct people are extreme religiously, but what about politically? I don't know, but I see working, families, poor, hispanic--you know, the type of people that used to be our crowd. Maybe they flog themselves on Easter, maybe not. But we just wouldn't discuss the particulars, if I were politicking amoung them. Whether they are extreme religious--well, Andy Greeley abstains from sex, and he's on my side. If I can stand with him, I can stand with the viaducters with the correct politics.

Somehow, the republicans have made their party welcome to religions that don't respect each others' beliefs one bit. I suspect they work hard to play down religious differeces and play up common political goals. That's politics, and probably good manners, and a lot more fun than losing.

[Batgirl]

102. there must be something here I'm missing

When you say "Somehow, the republicans have made their party welcome to religions that don't respect each others' beliefs one bit", are you saying you aren't aware of how they did it? The history of the alliance between the Republican party and fundamentalist Christians is too well documented and too obvious for me to enter into a debate over whether it happened. Or whether it's still playing out.

I think the Schaivo case shows that, when people are presented with a real life example of how this alliance can affect them personally, they are mostly very disapproving.

This is useful information to have, politically. If anything, it shows there's a weakness in this alliance that has up until now brought the Republicans a lot of political success. That weakness being, the vast majority of people in this country don't want to live in a theocracy and don't think politicians have any business inserting themselves into private issues.

In my opinion, this doesn't show us that we need to learn how to out-pander the Republicans by making fundamentalists think we want to implement their theocratic intentions. If anything, it tells us we can make political gains by talking about how the theocratic right endangers all of those who value personal freedom, which apparently is the majority.

[Inland]

108. No, it isn't outpandering on implementing theocracy. Forbid.

People who want theocracy established aren't within reach, and even if they were, the price is too high. It's hard to out-theocracy Bush.

But the fact is, most religious don't feel all that great about theocracy, as you said. And in fact, as I pointed out, most religions don't respect or trust one another's beliefs. I mean, really, catholics and evangelicals and orthodox jews, oh my? The secret is they concentrate on the political commonalities now and are leaving the deportations for later.

My point is only that we let those people in the club. There's no need to set up an anti-religion as opposed to anti-establishment or pro-civil rights party. No sense making them feel that they are doing something naughty and irreligious merely by being democrats. No sense fighting religion when the politics are right. The religious we wil always have with us.

I think a good portion of the country just shuts democrats out automatically as "not our kind". Yes, if you got a chance, and sat down, and told them the dangers of theocracy, they might agree, but you'll never get that chance. Some have crap reasons, but no sense giving them a good one.

And I think that goes not only for those who see the stain but those religious who don't. They don't enjoy seeing those with wacky devotions get skewered for the dumber aspects, and they certainly don't enjoy watching it turn into a comment on the delusional quality of all religion.

[Batgirl]

112. well, I would agree with the notion

that when standing up to defend against the theocratic Right, it's not beneficial to do it in such a way as to be an attack on religion as a whole. And Democratic inclusiveness should be emphasized and distinguished from the Religious Right, which is the polar opposite of inclusive.

The would-be theocrats aren't interested in inclusiveness. And in fact, they think such an attitude amounts to a slippery layer of grease on the highway to hell.

Politically, this exclusionary, all-others-need-not-apply attitude on their part should be exposed and condemned. But politicians are afraid to criticize the religous right for fear they will be accused of anti-Christian bigotry. But you are right that something positive needs to be offered at the same time -- a welcome mat for everyone who loves democracy regardless of their religion or lack thereof.

[Inland]

119. Agreed, wholeheartedly.

And the would be theocrats aren't interested in inclusiveness, beyond getting their way in the short run so they can dominate everyone in the long run.

Example. Right wing evangelicals are crazy for the State of Israel. There's several reasons, one being that it sides against Muslims, who they like even less than jews, but more insidious is the concept that they'd like every religion to have its own state, where the religion is protected by the state against, well, everything. Israel is a Jewish state and the US is a christian state for christians, in that view.

But so many jews are so pleased with the support, they don't realize (or take the chance) that the day is coming where American Jews are told that if the US is getting too christian for them, they can always leave for their own country.

It's an extreme example, considering what's at stake in the existence of Israel, but its a case of swallowing the fact of clear religious antipathy for politics. All I can do is point out that a short term political gain is a long term danger.

[RPM]

42. i agree with you...

but were you knocking religion down to the level of astrology, psychics, and scientology; or were you attempting to legitimize astrology, psychics, and scientology?

[Batgirl]

47. I wasn't thinking in those terms

Everyone should be free to practice their spiritual or mystical beliefs. Those who would grab political power in order to impose those beliefs on everyone else -- scary.

[Bridget Burke]

58. You're sure the vision-seers are after political power?

Did you speak to them?

[Batgirl]

68. As a matter of fact

I do have a fundie-whacko brother -- whom I happen to love dearly -- but I don't want him and his many whacko peers in charge of running the country.

Of course everyone in his church voted for Bush. I heard my brother say that if we didn't have a conservative Christian president, God would strike down our country. Really fuck our shit up, bigtime.

My brother and his co-whackos know how God wants them to live, and how God wants everyone else to live as well. And they know it's up to them to implement God's wishes through government policy.

(For a good illustration of the kind of society that believers like my brother would like to create, I recommend reading "The Handmaid's Tale" by Margaret Atwood.)

I'm sure that crazy zealots exist in every belief system. But there's nothing to be gained from tip-toeing around in the hopes of not offending them.

These are not just simple, devout folk (how very patronizing, by the way) who want nothing more than our acceptance. They want authoritarian political control. I thought this was a well known fact.

They are not to be reasoned with. But by holding them up for examination, maybe we can make the huge swath of moderates more aware of the dangers of giving political power to these people by voting for wingnut Republicans who kowtow to them.

[Bridget Burke]

83. In other words, you don't know a thing about the people who saw the vision

Too bad about your brother.

[Batgirl]

85. I didn't realize the only valid observations

are from those who personally hung out under that particular viaduct.

[Bridget Burke]

87. Yes, actually.

You're projecting dismay at your own family problems on these people that you do not know.

[Batgirl]

90. thanks for the psychoanalysis

I'm sure it is well-meaning. You asked if I personally knew someone who had visions.

This thread seems to be a place where people are discussing the idea of, at what point does religious belief become, how do you shrinks say, "crazy?" Which then launched some discussion of the role that religion plays in politics.

I think you are projecting your dismay over your perception that your religions beliefs are being attacked, onto a person that you do not know.

[Batgirl]

92. oh and by the way,

I USED to enjoy reading your posts...aw, never mind. I still do.

[aaronnyc]

67. Neither

I mean, personally, I think that traditional religion and new-age "pseudo-religions" are equally as irrational, and therefore, I don't see them as being a legitimate source of knowledge. However, I don't go around telling people who feel otherwise that that they have a mental disorder. I think that we should just let people believe whatever makes them happy.

The OP was intending to mock Christians who believe these grease stains are a sign from God. My point was that his lack of consistency on mocking irrational belief, showed that his thread was specifically targeted at Christians, and didn't really have anything to do with their lack of rationality being dangerous (which is what he claimed).

[Bunny]

89. Last I heard, the astrologers, psychics, and scientologists

weren't trying to take over the country, and make us all live according to their beliefs.

The "Jesus in the Taco" people aren't dangerous, just a symptom of the collective religious mania that is attempting to commandeer this secular country, and turn it into a theocracy.

[Rich Hunt]

107. yes it does

People do indeed become very irrational and even dangerously vindictive when they realized that someone has pulled a nasty practical joke on them.

[Rich Hunt]

109. yes, they are easily manipulated

Some are easily manipulated into seeing anything but a practical joke (and maybe a form of protest) in this.

[Beetwasher]

53. Bullshit, The Hard Nosed, Proof Demanding People Were The SKEPTICS

of the WMD's. People died because of idiots who had FAITH in IMAGINARY WMD'S. IOW, WMD's that weren't there. The evidence, the facts all said there were NO WMD's. Just ask Scott Ritter.

Get your facts straight.

Lot's of people die because of lunatic fringe morons who think god is speaking to them and is telling them, for instance, to drown their children. Or telling them to invade Iraq, etc. Imagining, seeing or hearing god or whomever can be dangerous and most certainly DOES and HAS lead to death.

I'm not saying these particular deluded fools flocking to worship a water stain are dangerous, but that type of thinking most certainly can be dangerous and often is (and I mean magical, faith based thinking in general, whether it be religion or astrology or whatever). What if one of them thinks that image of the virgin mary is talking to them and telling them to do things? Like, kill their children for instance? Don't tell me that'll never happen, because it HAS happened.

[onager]

70. Great post, beetwasher!

Hits the nail right on the head.

[Inland]

98. Not so much.

The point still stands. Faith in a stain didn't lead to war. Faith in Bush did, or more accurately, believing him and the CIA and the spin.

Not every dupe is religious, nor is every deceiver, and vice versa.

[Beetwasher]

100. Wrong, Magical, Faith Based Thinking Lead To War

Bush said he spoke to god and was told it was the right thing to do. Idiots had faith in Bush, had faith, despite evidence to the contrary that there were weapons, that Iraq hit us on 9/11 etc. They believed in imaginary bullshit, just like the stain. It's the same mindset.

[Inland]

104. Kerry? Clinton? They had magical faith based thinking?

Rummy, Wolfie, are they religious? Powell, Rice? Don't even know.

Rather than go where the blame lies, you switch it. Now its the ignorant viaduct dwellers' ideologies that infect the thinking of the college educated with a thousand years of government experience among them. Having faith in God and having faith in Bush are two different things, although Bush and plenty on DU would love to make them one in the same.

I would rather have a person with mystical eyeglasses seeing stains than a person with ideological blinders seeing WMD. Seeing stains never killed anybody.

[Beetwasher]

111. The Blame Lies In Believing and Having Faith In Something

even though evidence points to the contrary. Maybe the war still would have happened even if the public was dead set against, we'll never know. But people were sold lies that they took to be truth on blind faith.

I'm switching nothing. Sure, Bushco. is responsible for the war, but people went along w/ the architects of the war because they were told to have faith, faith that their leaders knew what they were talking about. They told them in essence "believe us that this stain you see is the virgin mary, and not just a stain". It's the same mindset that allows one to come to erroneous conclusions and do horrible things in the name of god.

The stain may not cause people to kill other people. Then again, it may have some effect. What if one person there gets it into her head that the stain is sending her messages to kill her children? As if something like that has never happened before...It has. Religious whackos hear voices, have hallucinations etc. that do in fact lead them to do horrible things in the name of religion. That's what happens when you shut down your critical thinking skills and take things on faith. Unscrupulous men latch onto these delusions and then manipulate these people for their own ends, just like Bush did when he says he spoke to god who told him he was right to invade Iraq.

You have faith in your godly leaders who lie to you and tell you there are dangerous weapons when there are none, enemies when they are none, or that they are doing the will of god when they kill innocents. And they do it in your name, and you support them because of your blind faith in "holy stains".

[Inland]

114. Even stains? Really?

So if I believe in stains, or that my popcorn looks like Lincoln, I'm a sucker for every scam that comes around? Really?

Is the converse true? Did Gingrich suddenly start writing checks for TV preachers for miracle cures because Bush suckered him into war?

Seems to me that a weakness for one doesn't have much to do with a weakness for another.

All you are saying is that some people believe dumb things and take some things on faith. No kidding. I just don't see the evil connection between taking a huge leap re: miracles and then turning around into buying into a Bushie spin campaign. In other words, you believe in stains so you believe in Bush.

If there is a propensity for the religious to be suckered by Bush, it isn't because they are suckers for any old politician. There isn't anything intrinsic in religion that makes them believe Bush. There needs an intermediate step, which is, "Bush is one of you and the democrats think that religious belief is dangerous and think you are an idiot". They believe Bush because Bush butters them up, is one of them, and we aren't, so they give him a hearing before he screws them. And its reinforcing, when they go to church on Sunday, hey, everyone is for Bush. Sounds like politics.

Your theory doesn't make any more sense than to say that Texans are dangerous because they are susceptible to being bulldozed by Bush's downhome crap and big belt buckle and his constant appeal to their cultural aspects. Or North Carolignians being dangerous because they were flattered by John Edwards's selection to be on the ticket. Or various ethnic and racial groups being dangerous because they will vote for one of their own if underrepresented in the legislature or office or for a first. All are arguably dupes, all are in danger of being duped, and yet, there isn't anything intrinsically wrong with being in those groups. Or anything unfair about appealilng to them, or fighting for them.

But I don't see the point in condemning blacks as a group because lots are proud of either Powell or Rice. Rather, I would make sure they knew that they could still be one of us.




Which side of the Iraq war was the Pope on again?

[Beetwasher]

122. Figures You Wouldn't Get It And Would Construct Strawmen

Indeed, the religious nut ARE more susceptible to Bush. What planet do you live on. The same people who do write checks to Fallwell fell for the Bush war lies. There is a most definite correlation, funny that. They most certainly are NOT suckers for any old politician, how silly. These fundy nuts didn't and wouldn't ever back Kerry because he's NOT a religious shuckster who bludgeons everyone w/ his supposed faith, like Bush, or Falwell or any of these other con artists who routinely sucker Bush voters for loads of cash by praying to god on tv and performing "miracles". Are you seriously suggesting these nut jobs would support a non-Republican politician? Don't make me laugh, you know that's ridiculous.

All the other groups you mentioned are nothing like religious BELIEVERS. There's no mental shutdown of critical thinking skills required to be a Texan, there IS a required mental shutdown of critical thinking skills to be a Bush voter as well as a religious fundy.

It's the same process at work, the turning off of the critical thinking part of the brain.

[Inland]

125. Nuts are susceptible to Bush.

That's the point. But of course, your problem is that you see everyone who is religious as nutty and easily duped by politicians, and won't back off that for a second no matter what the facts are. That doesn't strike me as critical thinking.

The flip side of the bigotry is assuming the non-believers in religion are hard-nosed skeptics about everything. Of course, you have all sorts of people falling for pseudo science, Lysenkoism, Marxism, and a thousand other scams supposedly based on "science" and sometimes expressly atheistic.

Now, concerning what you think is important--that there's no shutdown of criticial thinking skills to being a Texan--is just missing the point. Your beliefs about God might be based on objective evidence, but your beliefs about people are based on crap. Like a Marxist, you just don't know what makes people tick, and like any bigot, would rather not be bothered with a factual inquiry.

The fact is that people are susceptible to trusting others that are like them and share their backgrounds and their beliefs. Until you understand that, you'll never understand Bush's appeal or why your insulting people's backgrounds and beliefs is politically stupid.

[Beetwasher]

127. Bullshit. Why the Dishonesty?

"But of course, your problem is that you see everyone who is religious as nutty and easily duped by politicians,..."

Bullshit. Where did I ever indicat that? You are dishonest to suggest so.

Why are all your arguments ad hominems and attacks?

The fact of the matter is, Bush hardcore base are a bunch of religious loonies. There's a connection there, though you are desperate not to see it. That doesn't mean I think or ever said ALL religious people are nutty. How pathetic that you resort to that sort of dishonesty.

[Inland]

129. So all you are saying is that

Bush's hardcore base is religious loonies. No kidding.

And if that is all you are saying, and not extrapolating about religion or poltics in general, you are on pretty safe ground.

And I'm certainly not going to argue with positions you say you aren't taking--now. I'm not going to bother to go back and show you your own posts.

Nor am I going to point out that "there's a connection there" is exactly what I was saying. Of course there's a connection. You just don't know what it is, even after I tell you. Too bad.

[Beetwasher]

130. LOL! No, Please, I Defy You to Go Back To My Posts And Show Me

I defy you. You are full of it. I never took that position and the reason you ain't going back and looking is you know that.

My position is, Bush's is base are a bunch of crackpots because they have no critical thinking skills and take things on faith, whether it's his lies or their religious beliefs and it's the same process at work. That's the connection.

[Inland]

135. Yeah, you don't know people.

YOu don't know why people back Bush and why they would not. That's why your political statements are screwed. Politics includes motivations, and you don't get it. No, I DON'T care to repeat myself. If searching past posts is a good idea, then you can do it.

[Beetwasher]

137. English Much? Pathetic...

Yes, we do know things about people who back Bush. What planet do you live on? His base is the religious right. Are you arguing that that's not true? LOL!

Politics includes motivations? Duh. Could you be any more ambiguous and meaningless in your generalizations? What an empty, meaningless statement.

Bush's base is motivated, according to just about everyone (I guess except for you), by their fringe, lunatic, extreme religious views. Why do you think Bush goes around wearing his religion on his sleeve, because he actually believes that bullshit? He's catering to his fundy nut base, duh.

Pathetic. You can't find anything to back up your bullshit claims about my position, that makes you pathetic and dishonest.

"But of course, your problem is that you see everyone who is religious as nutty and easily duped by politicians,..."

Still waiting for you to put up or shut up, Chester. Back that claim up or you admit your full of shit.

[Cats Against Frist]

133. & "magical thinking" is one of the symptoms of fascism n/t

[sniffa]

12. i'm invisibLe

[mr blur]

13. They remind me of the people in

Carl Hiaasen's "Lucky You". Either out to make money, or mentally ill in some way.

[lectrobyte]

16. Natural human phenomena -- our brains are wired to recognize

faces, so no wonder we see them in clouds, grease stains, or even the messed up sheets they had on the Daily Show the other day.

[Bluebear]

17. And grilled cheese sandwiches. Don't forget grilled cheese sandwiches.

[tanyev]

21. You both forgot tortillas!

[Bridget Burke]

36. Yes--those dreadful non-Anglo-Saxons!

Read "One Hundred Years of Solitude" in your book club & go on about "Magic Realism."

Then, go sneer at the lower classes for offending your square-headed rationalism.

[lectrobyte]

66. Uh, I'm not sure I understand your point, but sorry if I sounded

sneering.

[onager]

75. In this case, we'd be better off reading...

Santa Evita by Thomas Eloy Martinez. Hilarious black-comedy novel about Eva Peron's death and subsequent wandering corpse.

Sort of like the Underpass-Worshippers, poor religious people all over Argentina experienced miracles and visions during the Evita deathwatch. Many tried to bargain with the Sky-Pixie to spare Eva's life, using various offerings. IIRC, one man walked all the way across Argentina.

But in the end she died, and Juan Peron literally tried to turn her well-embalmed corpse into a religious shrine for the poor and ignorant. To boost his own political power, of course.

The book is a great look at how the delusional thinking of those simple religious believers can be manipulated and used by tyrants.

[mondo joe]

84. Don't confuse magic realism with actual grilled cheese sandwiches.

Please.

[leftofthedial]

29. mental illness

some stains and ordinary objects DO look like jeebiz or jeebiz' mom or the buddha or some other religious figure or icon.

But to infer supernatural intervention instead of freakish cooincidence is mental illness.

[Cuban_Liberal]

31. In your OPINION, of course.

Others are free to hold a contrary opinion.

[leftofthedial]

40. of course

I'm not a religious dogmatist

neither am I a theocrat

at least for the time being, Americans are allowed to hold and express opinions of their own.

[tigereye]

37. no, that is not true

in the clinical sense. Projection perhaps, wishful thinking,a need to see more than is actually there. Not mental illness.

[Mr.Green93]

30. naming saints

may be a mental illness.

[Bridget Burke]

38. Please explain....

Are you just saying the entire Catholic Church is nuts?

What about saints revered by many? Of course, Saint Francis should have gone into his father's business...

[Mr.Green93]

93. It was an intemperate

remark and I apologize and withdraw it.

[bridgit]

33. trending mental illness...

[Lars39]

44. I've got hardwood maple cabinets in my house.

I can "see" animals, people, cool designs in the grain of the wood.
I don't wind up on national news because the wood in my cabinets have
interesting grain patterns. :shrug:

[gpandas]

46. i don't want to laugh...

whenever i see these things, it just happens.

[mondo joe]

63. Why is is anti religion to disbelieve in seeing saints in grease stains?

Is it anti democratic to criticize Republican nominees?

[aaronnyc]

80. Nobody is saying it is

The OP did not ask "are these really images sent from God?" it asked "do people who believe that these are images sent from God have a mental illness?"

Obviously, nobody here is arguing that these stains are actually images of saints sent down from God. What myself and others are arguing is anti-religion, is to continually mock these people, and call them dangerous for their personal religious beliefs.

[mondo joe]

82. So we can't recognize mental illness when it takes on religious

aspects?

There happen to be plenty of people who are religious who think these folks are nuts.

[rinsd]

115. Are people who see shapes in clouds mentally ill? (nt)

[mondo joe]

121. Seeing likenesses is not mentally ill. Mistaking a likeness for the real

thing is a big step closer.

[msmcghee]

71. My favorite topic . .

The difference is not mental illness vs. sanity. It is the ideological mind vs. the rational mind - the true believer vs. the reality based person. Humans have always used irrationality as a survival mechanism - although as science (rationality) makes advances and becomes more useful far fewer humans turn to irrational (ideological) beliefs today than even 20 years ago.

As someone pointed out above some liberals also hold to things like psychics and astrology. i.e. true believers come in all types along the liberal / conservative spectrum. (I'm using that as a psychological spectrum not the political one). See this interesting paper on the topic:

http://www.awitness.org/journal/political_conservatism_as_motivated_social_cognition_summary.html

They both can reject reality for irrational beliefs (we all can under the right circumstances) but I think there is an important difference between the two types - the liberal vs. the conservative ideological mind.

The liberal version embraces mysticism as way of dealing with the unknown and providing security in a cruel world where none of us will escape with our lives. It's a sort of plugging-in to higher powers for protection that I see in some liberal Christians.

Conservative ideological minds use it as a way to plug into authority and gain control over others in society or other nations - as with the new Pope or Bush or Hitler. This is a far more dangerous version.

I think generally, it is the conservative variety that causes people to gather under powerful militant leaders (who are usually considered to be in direct contact with some powerful vengeful God) who will use their power to imprison, torture and execute others and to wage wars - or maybe just to prevent them from using birth control or getting abortions or getting married if they are gay.

I think it is the liberal variety that causes weak and oppressed people to gather near a water stain under a bridge - to feel connected to something bigger than themselves.

I feel uncomfortable with both types but I don't fear the latter.

[marions ghost]

113. Interesting Paper...on the characteristics of

conservatism--you could put this up as a separate topic for discussion, msmcghee. It certainly makes sense to consider liberal and conservative ways of dealing with the fundamental conditions of existence as a way to understand the issues we face today. I particularly appreciated the section on Intolerance of Ambiguity.

Yeah, the people seeing Mary in the underpass are not the ones to fear. Folk-art shrines are perhaps not common in our culture, but neither are they anything to get worked up about. People desperately need symbols that focus their beliefs and have meaning in their lives. So is what a lot of Americans spend time watching on TV any better? Is the religion of the mega-mall any better? I once knew of a woman who had to stop by Wal-mart EVERY day (or her day was not complete)--now WHICH is a stranger compulsion? One could argue that contemplating the goodness of Mary is better than contemplating the benefits of plastique. Who's insane?

You have to be really sure of your own sanity to be so sure about that of others, and I'm not willing to say I have better alternatives to offer to the Mary devotees. It's healthier than many alternatives I can think of.

[terrya]

77. No one knows what the Virgin Mary looked like.

There are no extant paintings or representations of the Virgin Mary.

How can people look at a water stain or a ham sandwich or whatever and say that that's the Virgin Mary? Am I missing something here?

[harlinchi]

95. My thoughts exactly!

Thanks for a bit of sanity!

[LibertyorDeath]

79. Did you see " the true believer" with the video camera

I almost died laughing.

Recording the "miracle" for the young uns back home no doubt.

[amazona]

91. not sure it's a mental illness

The human brain evolved to quickly find and see patterns. Some of those patterns are not real, but we see them anyway. I can see the Virgin Mary in the pictures of the stain. I don't think it's anything spiritual. I think it is the power of suggestion and the fact that some brains can see these images more quickly than others. I'm quite susceptible to suggestion. Some friends burned a candle, and it also formed into the shape of the Madonna (Mary with babe right down to the traditional cloak or cape she wears). None of us were Catholics, so we just enjoyed it as, "Oh, isn't that neat how it turned out that way?" But I don't think any of us were mentally ill for seeing the image of Mary. I just think we had brains that were pretty quick to make patterns out of random images. A frog can't see stillness, and the human brain can't see randomness.

Adults have a responsibility to be aware of their strengths and weaknesses. I know that I'm quite suggestible, so I "sleep" on suggestions and ideas -- and I do a lot more research on something -- whenever a trend or fad is sweeping my circle of friends.

I don't think the stain worshippers are of necessity diseased. I think they are relatively unsophisticated about how the brain works. I think most people are. Trust me -- it's the 21st century and a scary proportion of people believe if they saw it with their own eyes, it's totally real every single time. They don't test or question. Now, of course, most of the time what you see is what you get. But not to a 100 percent certainty!

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[Kurovski]

96. Imagination,

imagination that underestimates the real miracles.

[arwalden]

103. Are Delusions A Mental Illness?

I think that such "visions" are delusions.

[Rich Hunt]

105. neither

How about 'hoaxes'?

Are some people so delusional that they can't recognize that they've been punked?

[dogman]

117. I saw a stain in my underpants.

It looked like krap to me.

[New Dealer]

118. Leave them alone

After all, you can't prove that it isn't an act of God.

[Stryguy]

120. Well it all depends.

If you glance at the grease stain and think to your self for a split second, "Hey, that looks like Mary!" and then go on with your day like every other day.

Then you're normal.

If you make a big deal out of it and pretend like it's some act of God or somehow reflects on your christian faith... Or perhaps you're angered when someone makes fun of your grease stain..

Then you're either insane or just pathetic.

[Cleita]

124. There is an interesting article in the May 2005

Scientific American, by Michael Shermer titled "Turn Me On, Dead Man" on page 37.

Since I can't post a link, all I can say is, try to find a copy somewhere and read it. It's only one page but basically he says that scientific recognition phenomenon is behind this and is genetically wired into our species.

[Jesus Saves]

128. Digby had the best post on this

He noted how the stain looked like a vagina...something also worthy of reverence....

And he was right, it does look like a vagina....

[onager]

132. Let's hear from a real expert, Lynne Cheney...

REMARKS BY LYNNE CHENEY TO CHICAGO CHRISTIANS HUDDLED AT ROADSIDE SHRINE...

Statement by the Second Lady

MRS CHENEY: Chicagoans, I am so moved to stand in this sacred patch of roadway with you today. I came as soon as I heard what's been going on here.

As a lifelong Christian, and a writer of vulvacentric historical fiction, I never thought for a moment that I would ever get the opportunity to stand so close to the eye-poppingly cavernous opening of Jesus' mom's moist, clammy ladyhole!

And yet here I am, like most of you, reveling in touching the pouting lips of Mary's womanhood with my fingertips, running my trembling index finger lovingly along the hirsute periphery of her succulent labia majora virgo, building up courage to probe deeper, deeper and deeper still and – finally – having my photo snapped next to the coy dilation of the holiest of hoo-hoos!

http://www.whitehouse.org/news/2005/042205.asp

[meow2u3]

134. Neither: it's an OPTICAL ILLUSION

Either that, or something like a natural Rorschach test.

[LiberallyInclined]

136. Seeing the images is one thing- i 'see' them all the time...

the 'our lady of the underpass' for instance- i can see the image that they're talking about- i just don't see it as a miracle, omen, or anything else like that- it's just a coincidence.
who hasn't looked up and seen images in the clouds?


seeing the images is no big deal- believing that they're divine icons is whole 'nuther ball of wax.