Sometimes DU reminds me of the Freepers on Clinton

[ButterflyBlood]

As we know, the Freepers blame Clinton for everything. No matter how ridiculous or how asinine the stretches of logic it takes, they'll find some way to blame Clinton from everything for the Iraqi insurgency to Janet Jackson's boob to 9/11 to the giant load of shit we have now. It's ridiculous and we laugh at them.

But there are times when DU isn't any better and goes to giant stretches of logic to blame Bush/Rove/PNAC/etc. for anything that happens. The terrorist attack in Spain got blamed by some here on the US, even though no one could construct a coherant reasoning for why they would do so other than "they're really evil and capable of anything". When various attacks in Iraq have happened, some people have instantly screamed this is a CIA black op, although I don't see how making the situation in Iraq look WORSE to the public is beneficial to them. And when the tsnaumi happened, the tin foil hatters definately came out.

But the recent papal election is another prime example of this. Occam's Razor makes this rather simple, JPII was a conservative and appointed almost all the of the voting pool, therefore his succesor would be a conservative. This was known long before the neocons appear on the scene. Hell, it was probably a given before I was born. Yet once Ratzinger wins some people started screaming this was something the neocons had to be behind, even JPII was also no fan of neocons either and there is no reason at all for a bunch of predominately non-American cardinals to care what some American Protestants think.

Can we quit being Freepers and having to see a conspiracy in everything? Not only would I rather be above their level, I'd prefer to be like the boy who cried wolf and see people disregard things with actual strong evidence behind them, such as voter fraud last year and in 2000 and LIHOP as just more delusional ranting from left wingers who think the Papal election was rigged.

[Tux]

1. Amerian tradition

On Slashdot, they blamed Bush for the Titan probe's frozen state. Like he has any control over Titan's temp.

[DBoon]

14. on Slashdot they blame Microsoft for EVERYTHING!

yes, without Windows, the Titan probe would not have froze. If only they had used Linux...

[w4rma]

29. That is a bad example.

There may well be an indirect cause with Bush as the source. (Hint: Bush has control over NASA's funding, leadership and priorities)

On the other hand, I see nothing that Bush controls that might give him influence over the pope's appointment.

[ArkDem]

38. The senate controls funding.

[youspeakmylanguage]

36. It's really more of an Internet tradition...

..since the beginning of the net. The programmers, engineers, hackers (real hackers, not crackers), educators and scientists who populated it were mostly highly-intelligent libertarian shut-ins who relished the concept of a virtual intellectual free-for-all. Then came spam, AOL, and they had to retreat into their own little networks and forums.

I never participated in any of that, mainly because the flamewars would get incredibly nasty over the most ridiculous crap - try reasoning with someone whose life is dominated entirely by FORTRAN programming and "Babylon 5" in equal messure. Until I discovered DU, I could never find a forum properly moderated enough to be half-way civilized.

Even with the stellar moderation we have here, there will always be trolls and crackpots looking to crash the party. Learn to use "Ignore" and move on with your life.

[Placebo]

2. Agree 100%.

:thumbsup:

[LoZoccolo]

3. My take is that there are just people who are wired that way.

Maybe it's not a mental disorder, but it's a couple doors down from it. Or maybe it's just a mental sloth that finds an oversimplified explanation with few bad guys good enough, the same kind that finds people behind their computers all day whining about the goings on of the world.

I try not to get dragged into begging people to be reasonable anymore. I think some of my first few posts were me doing that. Also, I remember that seventhson's modus operandi was to waste our time trying to get him to think straight; that keeps me from getting too dragged in as well.

[Stand and Fight]

6. ?

Seventhson's? Please explain... You had me until that part.

[LoZoccolo]

10. seventhson was a resident conspiracy theorist...

...who unmasked as a FReeper troll on election night. He'd have people going trying to debunk all these wacky stories and basically served as a big time sink.

[ButterflyBlood]

12. ah, I remember him

every other post was some ranting about Skull & Bones.

[LoZoccolo]

16. And men growing breasts in Haiti due to chemical weapons or something.

That article he got from Counterpunch, which seems to make much effort to try to destroy the Democratic Party. It was a convenient partnership, I guess.

But this one is among my favorites:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=504895

[youspeakmylanguage]

34. At least he made a donation...

...which is more than I would ever do for a repug site. I feel slimy clicking on their ads (usually if I see something particularly nasty that I want to investigate further, like this group: www.cafepress.com/rightwingstuff)

[Stand and Fight]

21. So, he was a FReep?

I was lurking at the time... I wish I could have caught that. Sickening.

[LoZoccolo]

26. Here's a discussion the next day.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2582357#2582396

Then someone came on defending him, and I guess WilliamPitt got a message from him where he starts blaming the messages from him on a government conspiracy the next day. WilliamPitt, of course, doesn't buy it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2615085

[sandnsea]

33. Truly think some are paid

We've got this troll that shows up at our blog almost every day, same time. Same talking points. There's only about 20 of us that comment on a regular basis. I can't figure out why anybody would waste their time with so few people, day after day after day. I decided he's being paid and is our assigned RNC troll. Nothing else makes any sense.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LoZoccolo]

55. Nah, he was a troll.

I see his repeated open-faced insistence on breaches of logic as completely consistent with being someone here who just wants to frustrate people.

Why would they wait until election night to off him when they could do so at any time without explanation, as is the standard when someone's tombstoned?

[LoZoccolo]

57. Also, you're mistaken that we're against broaching conspiracies.

Witness the Jeff Gannon/James Guckert press-pass conspiracy.

[Trajan]

4. How may human beings have you successfully controlled in your life ? ...

Why try to start now ? ..

[bpilgrim]

5. yeah, it's all in our heads

Rabbi Lerner: The New Pope is a Disaster for the World and for the Jews

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0420-28.htm

Since the days in which he served in the Nazi army in Germany to his role as the leader of the forces that suppressed the liberatory aspects of Vatican II and purged or silenced the Church of its most creative leadership (including German Catholic theologians Eugene Drewermann and Hans Kung, Brazilian theologian Leonardo Boff, and several prominent American Catholic thinkers), to the present moment in which he is recognized as the leader most identified with the forces of reaction and suppression of dissent within the Church, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has distinguished himself as a man who can be counted on to side with the most anti-humane and repressive forces, in opposition to those who seek to give primacy to a world of peace and justice, " said Rabbi Lerner.

Although normally Jews would welcome any choice of leadership by our sister religion, we have particular reason to comment on this choice.

"Jews have a powerful stake and commitment in ending global poverty and oppression. We fully well understand that in a world filled with pain and cruelty, the resulting anger is often channeled in racist, sexist and homophobic directions. Both as a matter of principle, based on our commitment to a prophetic vision, and as a matter of self-interest, Jews have disproportionately supported liberal and progressive social change movements seeking to end war and poverty.

So it was with great distress that we watched as Cardinal Ratzinger led the Vatican in the past twenty-five years on a path that opposed providing birth control information to the poor of the world, thereby ensuring that AIDS would spread and kill millions in Africa.

more...
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0420-28.htm

i love how the self righteous love to make pretentious and sweeping claims about DU'ers being very similar to FREEPERS but aren't able to EVER credibly challenge ANY 1 of our legitimate concerns and issues when brought up in open peer reviewed threads for over 4 years in any convincing manner.

u must be proud, eh

peace

[ButterflyBlood]

11. oh, I definately don't like the guy. There's plenty of legitimate concerns

That does not mean that the neocons rigged the papal election. Sometimes bad things happen WITHOUT them being involved.

Might I also point out that a good amount of prominent neocons are right wing Jews.

[bpilgrim]

15. how do you know?

"That does not mean that the neocons rigged the papal election."

were you in the room? no. then you too are only left to SPECULATE.

please don't call other DU'ers FREEPERS.

thank you :hi:

peace

[ButterflyBlood]

17. Well explain how they have the means

I do not see why a bunch of mostly non-American cardinals appointed by a guy who hates neocons and appointed most of them long before the neocons came around on the scene would care about what a bunch of American Jews and Protestants think. It's also tough to think of why right wing Jews would want an ex-Nazi in such a position.

[bpilgrim]

20. who was the first american president EVER to go to a popes funeral?

i am not saying they did or didn't i am JUST saying WE don't know and it is therefore FAIR GAME for speculation such as what you are actively engaging in.

but did i call you a freeper?

hell no.

and if anyone did their post would be deleted.

anyways... i think i've made my point, good night, sir.

peace

[ButterflyBlood]

23. I am not accusing anyone of being a freeper

I am saying some people have freeperish tendencies to blame everything they don't like on Bush like the freepers blame everything on Clinton.

Yes, we can speculate, but one can also speculate that Iraq did have weapons of mass destruction and Saddam hid them planning for a massive attack on the US later and they are still being held by the insurgency out somewhere and bin Laden's in Iraq in posession of them. That doesn't means it's true or that there's any reason to believe it.

And attending a funeral does not give someone immediate influence over someone. One could just as easily argue that Robert Mugabe rigged the papal election then, or any of the other zillions of world leaders in attendence.

[MADem]

47. Hey, WE DID NOT HAVE DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS

...with the Vatican previous to the Papacy of John Paul II. How many times must this be said??? Your point, therefore, makes a FALSE assumption. You DO NOT SEND senior reps to a funeral of a nation-state (and the Vatican IS that) when NO DIPLOMATIC relations exist. Don't expect Bush to show up at Castro's funeral, if he bites the dust during the chimp's reign. Why? NO DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS. Had Kerry been elected, he would have been there. And he and Teresa would have been able to follow the Mass...and chat with the Chiracs in French before and after the service.

Formal relations were established under Reagan. Carter opened the door, hosting JP2. But previous to this we had nothing more than an interests section in the Italian embassy, and we were getting our clock cleaned because of it. The Vatican serves many purposes, not the least being a 'go-between" much like the Swiss, for countries that are not speaking to each other.

http://www.americamagazine.org/reese/america/a-wilson.htm

[IthinkThereforeIAM]

7. Great post...

... at times I dread opening up a thread because there often is so much senseless and irresponsible blame being put into them. If you want to make a claim, either way, please offer a link or two that would reinforce your claim. It is always good to have some actual data to back you up when making a post or statement. As I recall, that was something we were all taught in composition classes in high school. The footnotes thingy.

[bpilgrim]

13. good point

"If you want to make a claim, either way, please offer a link or two that would reinforce your claim"

i notice in all the rounds i've been in here and witnessed during my time here with the sanctimonious, ignorant, name calling, doubting Thomasin's it is US the septics and concerned citizens who follow DU'es long tradition of providing plenty of credible background (links) and also are not the ones who call other DU'ers names, especially FREEPERS.

i notice the thread originator didn't follow your wise advice though.

peace

[ButterflyBlood]

18. This is what is called the "burden of proof" fallacy

you are asking me to prove that the papal election was not rigged. Yet one can not prove a negative. This is akin to saying that unless you can prove there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, there must've been.

Now do you have any actual solid evidence that a bunch of Americans who are almost completely non-Catholic have any influence over a bunch of mostly non-American guys appointed by a guy who hates neocons?

[bpilgrim]

22. i asked you to show me the FREEPERS

links please?

and remember YOU made many sweeping generalizations in your post NOT just about god's rotwilier.

tia

peace

[ButterflyBlood]

24. I DID NOT ACCUSE ANYONE OF BEING A FREEPER

I said that using massive stretches of logic to blame anything you don't like on Bush is similar to freeperish behavior of them using massive stretches of logic to blame anything they don't like on Clinton.

[Swamp Rat]

30. "Can we quit being Freepers" might have been a poor choice of words?

Reading them felt like getting punched in the eye by a friend.

On the other hand, - I think - I agree with you somewhat. I don't want to read crap in LBN. I go there for news and reasoned discussion. I think GD and the Lounge should have more leeway for self-expression, however odd or incorrect.

[bemildred]

8. What good are enemies if you can't blame stuff on them? nt

[The Magistrate]

65. Indeed, My Friend

There is a Sufi saying that has long been a favorite of mine: "Bless your enemies, they show you your path." It has many immediate tactical applications....

[mahina]

9. My son and I play "Why is that George Bush's Fault" for giggles.

My grandma gew up in Arkansas and used to tell tall stories for laughs. We can spin em out for a good long one.
Many hours of family fun, the most memorable while watching the sky for shooting stars at Hapuna beach during the meteor shower last summer.
Hooooo-TA!
And that's why it's GEORGE BUSH"S FAULT!
But we are not freepers because we still laugh. And we can walk and breathe at the same time.

[meisje]

19. maybe your a secret agent sent by rove to make us look like conspiracy nut

s

[aaronnyc]

25. It's easier for people to blame all our problems on one singular force

It is unfortunately easier for people to blame one singular force, for all that is wrong in the world, than to take an honest look at the reality of the situation.

Bush/Rove is clearly the DU equivalent to what Bill/Hillary was for the Freepers. I have no doubt if the next president is a Republican, DU will hate him with just as much venom as they hate Bush now; and if it is a Dem. Freepers will hate him just as much as they hate the Clinton's.

When you are on a message board like this, the easiest thing is to blame the guy who we all hate- for everything. Probably the only way to defiantly avoid a "flame war" is to blame Bush.

When people are continually talking amongst extremely like-minded people, their opinions start to become less thoughtful. Since they spend their day constantly hearing how evil Bush is, it is easy for them to blame Bush for all that is wrong. This idea is continually reinforced, and people stop thinking analytically, and start using the same moral absolutism that Bush uses.

There is enough to blame Bush for that people don't need to start making shit up, which they have absolutely no evidence for it. Just because you could imagine Bush could conceivably have done something, doesn't mean that he did. It is a case of DU engaging in the same logic which Freepers used about Clinton - stop analytic thinking and all your problems can come back to a singular source.

[LSdemocrat]

27. Great thread

[LSdemocrat]

28. Great thread

[Lone Pawn]

31. Thank you.

[earth mom]

32. I Disagree.

Sorry, but there are too many gawd-dammed bizarre things going on with the * regime that just can't be ignored. Call it merely coincidence if you will, but there are many people here on DU and elsewhere who are connecting the dots. Alluding to any of these brave souls as freepers or even conspiracy nuts is flat out wrong and could even be construed as freeperish in and of itself. How would YOU feel if any of them called you a rethug freeper for not believing as they do?

It's a two way street.

[PKG]

35. You may be connecting the dots, but

when there's a field of dots out there that more or less looks like the night sky in rural Montana, you can connect the dots in more or less any damn way you please, using whatever 30-odd stars out of thousands so that the sky looks like whatever picture you like. Such theories never convince me that the sky is actually a giant rabbit.

[earth mom]

45. Nice pic of Nixon and Elvis

you got there. Now I could connect all sorts of dots as to why you are on DU with a picture of Nixon. But I won't because I don't have the FACTS to support whatever I may think about it.

But I will say that there are FACTS and EVIDENCE behind the dots that people here on DU are connecting about the widespread corruption of the * & Co regime. It's not a joke or a game. While a pie in the sky dot to dot rabbit could be considered as such. :eyes:

[Lone Pawn]

62. I think what he's saying is that there are so many facts

out there, and we cherry-pick them to make points that facts we ignore would undo, and the dozens of unrelated facts could be used to make other conspiracy theories that lead to other conclusions.

[mistertrickster]

37. I basically agree BUT sometimes there really IS a conspiracy.

For example, Iran/Contra was clearly a secret conspiracy, and it wasn't revealed until one of the CIA's covert agents got shot down delivering weapons.

No whistle blower came forward, showing that among the right people, you can have 1,000's involved and absolute secrecy at the same time.

Do people scream "conspiracy" too much? No doubt the answer is yes. But does that mean that all conspiracy theories are bogus? Absolutely not.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[confludemocrat]

40. This is an infuriating post

This reads like a new york times story about DU or the one in the Chicago area throwaway of recent. Or the type of distorting that an RNC operative would engage in full attack mode. Full or exaggerations, mischaracterizations, accentuating the atypical as normal, really poorly thought through.

[imenja]

43. it is not atypical

I don't think you're being honest with yourself. There are a number of thoughtful contributers to this forum, but much of what the OP discusses is common. Very few on DU even use the President Bush's given name. They refer to him as a monkey, as though that somehow said more than his actions as president. The current proliferation of hate speech about the Pope and Catholics is the most recent example. The more I read here, the less difference I see between the right and left: only the target of their ridicule differs; he sentiment, the absence of tolerance, is identical. This does not apply to all DU members, but far too many for my liking.

[gordianot]

41. You make some good points but I partially disagree.

George W. Bush is in some ways a gift. Trying to be analytical about this in my mind he has partially rehabilitated Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Dole and a variety of Republicans. Barry Goldwater now looks to me like a moderate compared to two Bush's especially Junior.

Yes conspiracies are often the first assumption but the current gang is very manipulative. Many who post here use this forum as a release. I imagine those at Free Republic use that forum for the same reason. Clinton could also be manipulative.

I read a lot, including those opinions that do not conform to mine. My basic conclusion is George W. Bush is a new phenomena in the history of the United States. Is this what Aaron Burr would have been like if he seized power?

[Spazito]

42. You might be interested in this article from Newsday

that just hit LBN:

Neil Bush, Ratzinger co-founders

WASHINGTON -- Neil Bush, the president's controversial younger brother, six years ago joined the cardinal who this week became Pope Benedict XVI as a founding board member of a little known Swiss ecumenical foundation.

The charter members of the board were all well-known international religious figures, except for Bush and his close friend and business partner, Jamal Daniel, whose family has extensive holdings in the United States and Switzerland, public records show.

The Foundation for Interreligious and Intercultural Research and Dialogue was founded in Geneva, Switzerland, in 1999 to promote ecumenical understanding and publish original religious texts, said a foundation official.

snip

Gary Vachicouras, a theologian and foundation official in Geneva, would not explain in a telephone interview yesterday why Bush, who has no clear public connection to religious causes, was on the first board.

more

http://www.nynewsday.com/news/nationworld/world/ny-wochar214226829apr21,0,2092802,print.story

(It seems there is a concrete connection to the bush family in, at least, one sense.)

[Lars39]

44. Neil Bush has ties to a pope who used his power to influence our election

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3520461

-------------------------------------------------
Just our imagination.....

[MADem]

48. Neil Bush had the ability to funnel cash to an outfit that has been

...running a serious deficit for several years. Sometimes people THINK they are buying influence, but that doesn't mean they always get what they pay for. Look at all the money we gave Saddam in the past...we didn't get much bang for those bucks, did we?

[gordianot]

49. When you look at some of the younger generation they do not make money.

But they always seem to get bailed out of financial trouble at the nick of time. Just good luck I guess. Actually this seems to be a family pattern.

I've always heard it is hard to measure influence, and the perfect crime is the one that goes undetected and without suspicion it ever happened.

Old American Proverb: You never hear about the perfect crime that is why it is perfect.

[bpilgrim]

64. gett'n plenty of ' bang for those bucks' in iraq nowadays

we'll the bush crime families budies anyways... and don't be fooled, it's been goin on for decades.

psst... pass the word ;->

peace

[QC]

50. Correct! As the French say, "les extrèmes se touchent." n/t

[New Dealer]

51. For many people here, the easiest thing to do is blame the neocons

I've noticed several cases where the very radical conspiracy theories are suggested. The theory about the neocons ensuring that Ratzinger was elected is one of them. Before his election, he was the front-runner; most people thought he would win. He was old - usually an old pope who will have a short reign comes after a long-serving Pope. And he did appoint most of the cardinals. Sure, Bush probably preferred him over a liberal candidate, but Bush had no reason to intervene and probably wouldn't gain much from a liberal Pope anyway; the leader of an important country is much more important (Blair comes to mind). It would be like suggesting that Bush cheated to ensure Tom Delay was reelected in 2004 - we all knew that the Democratic candidate didn't stand a chance anyway.

Anyway, every website has its radicals. I'm sure there are some very intelligent people here, and some unintelligent ones who believe Bush killed Kennedy, caused the tsunami, and caused their neighbor's dog to get hit by a car. There are probably some very intelligent Freepers too, but most are idiots who blame Clinton and liberalism for all of the world's problems. Just ignore them; most people here are intelligent and acknowledge that Bush isn't the reason why the Pope won.

[mrdmk]

52. Yes name calling and finger pointing does get old

But, when quacks like a duck, walks like a duck and looks like a duck then it is a duck. Period.

9/11 happened on Mr. George Bush Jr.'s watch. There is no getting around that.

Iraqi insurgency was bad planning on the Bush Jr.'s administration. There is no getting around that.

Mr. Karl Rove may be a tactical genius, but he is not that smart. The media covers very well for their stupid mistakes. There is no getting around that.

The PNAC speaks for itself and the chickens are coming home to roost. There is no getting around that.

The United States of America has a very poor record with Latin America. Just recently there is Haiti. The Central America episode with John Negroponte and many others in the Bush Jr. Administration that started covert activities in the Reagan Administration. There is no getting around that.

Was the Papal election rigged, I doubt that. But the world in many areas is moving to the right in hopes of controlling the masses. There is no getting around that!

[applegrove]

53. Clinton was never out to do anything but be a great leader of democracy.

I think you can attack someone (Bush) who goes after your way of life. I think that is okay.

[NNN0LHI]

54. This must be of one of them we are getting our asses kicked threads

When you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.

Don

[B0S0X87]

56. Some of the posts here scare me

Like the guy who said, in all seriousness, that Bush had a diode implanted in Clinton's brain during his surgery so that he would support them in their tsunami relief.

I pointed out to the guy that there was a big difference between getting support for the victims of a huge natural disaster and, say, endorsing Bush's SS plan, but he just told me I was "blinding myself from the facts."

[Misunderestimator]

58. Fewer posts here scare me than the beliefs of people in "real life" do.

:shrug:

I doubt that you're implying that the diode poster was typical here... right?

[B0S0X87]

59. Of course not

But no one else tried to refute his post.

[Gman]

60. Yeah, isn't it great?!

That's why I got so much consolation when I found DU in March 2001.

[dxstone]

61. It's become such an obvious pattern...

That we all naturally assume that he'll steal ANOTHER immensely important election, just like the last two...
Personally, until that final announcement, I thought Bush had it for sure...
(note: I am joking... I hope)

[B Calm]

63. I figured the next Pope would be conservative, but I never dreamed

they would pick an ex-Nazi soldier and before that a member of Hitler's Youth..

[welshTerrier2]

66. making Iraq look WORSE

although I don't see how making the situation in Iraq look WORSE to the public is beneficial to them

well, perhaps you're right but here's how i see it ...

i think bush and the neo-cons see huge benefits from prolonging the "war" in Iraq for as long as possible ... if things appeared to be going well, expectations for near-term withdrawal would be created ...

two themes support this thinking ...

first, the primary motivation for invading Iraq was to establish a sustained US military presence in the region ... the first goal was power and control ... it is empire-building pure and simple ... bush needs a potent enemy to justify continued US occupation ...

and the second goal is oil ... the "war" has badly destabilized the oil markets ... the more unstable, the more expensive a barrel of oil becomes ... and the more expensive oil becomes, the more money bush's friends in the oil industry make ... most of the oil companies have reported all-time record profits ...

the plan all along was to establish a puppet regime in Iraq that the US could contol ... but things have not worked out so far so on and on we go ... it won't end ... not in 6 months ... not in a year ... not in 5 years or more ... either a puppet government will ask the US to stay, or the Iraqis will be blamed for not being ready to protect themselves or whatever ... but no way is bush just going to walk out of there ... bush's corporate masters see a gold mine in Iraq ... no corporation walks away when bucks are on the line ... the taxpayers and the soldiers pay the cost and the companies take the revenues ...

they could have ended this nonsense a long time ago ... it's not that the insurgency isn't real; it is ... but it would have died a very quick death (everyone knew this) if a real reconstruction of Iraq had occurred ... that's why virtually no reconstruction monies have been spent ... it's just not what they wanted to happen ... and it still isn't ... and the profits roll in for big oil and the military builds its bases and bush continues to try to manipulate the internal political climate ... the last part, the politics, are not going his way ... yet ... or are they? we still haven't been asked to leave ...