SERIOUS QUESTION: Can You Be A Good LIBERAL & A GOOD Catholic?

[matcom]

i ask in ALL seriousness. i will not mock, tease, even POST in this thread (unless asked directly).

for the record: I am an ATHIEST (hence the question)

second. by "good Catholic" i mean follow the church's teachings, doctrine and papal rules.

can you do that AND be considered a "good Catholic"? i know there are "reformed Catholics" but that really isn't what i'm referring to here. and this IS meant to be an HONEST question. i REALLY want to hear from "good Catholics" who also define themselves as LIBERALS.

again. NOT trying to flame, NOT trying to START a flame, its really an HONEST question.

thank you in advance.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

1. What is a good Liberal?

Lots of people believe homosexuality is a sin, but don't believe there should be laws against it because that is not the Church's domain. Same with abortion. Would those be good Liberals? I wouldn't count them as such, but that's just me.

Church teaching? Sure. That's all about tolerance. Doctrine? That's getting sticky. Papal rules? Very messy. You have only one side of the argument. The pope is conservative and surrounds himself with conservative aids. When a new pope is elected, he is elected from those closest to the pope and the cycle continues.

If good Catholic meant just following the teachings of Jesus and the basic parts of Church teachings, sure. But the papal doctrine screams for people to be judging other people. That just doesn't seem liberal to me.

[Poiuyt]

2. I don't see how you can be a good Christian and NOT be liberal

I don't think right wingers care about what Jesus actually taught. Obviously, there will be some conflict about abortion and all that. But a good Christian is a good citizen and a good human being. Bush and the neo-cons claim to be Christian, but they sure don't follow the teachings of Jesus.

I guess I don't know enough about Catholicism to answer your question. I just don't believe that Jesus would act like Bush.

[CBGLuthier]

3. You forgot to define something

What is a good liberal?

And I too mean not to flame but isn't this kind of close to the insulting exchange between Blitzer and Begalia? (I think it was Blitzer)

I will let the actual catholics speak for themselves but I think the answer to your question is yes, a person can be a good catholic and a good liberal.

[matcom]

8. pro choice, pro contraception, pro human rights, etc...etc...etc...

sorry. should have done that but thought it was implied

thanks

[Reverend_Smitty]

4. IMHO...

all you need to do to be a good Catholic is to follow the teachings of Jesus...all other laws are made by man and therefore are subject to change and many have changed over the years, case in point Vatican II. Because of that they aren't necessarily as important. So yes I can be a good Catholic because I do my best to follow the teachings of Jesus, and because of that, I'm a liberal. People can say what they want about this but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[calimary]

30. This came up at the state convention over the weekend: There isn't

a single thing in the Bible about gay marriage. But there are tons and tons of references to helping and defending the poor. THAT is what Jesus was about. If God had meant to favor the rich or make money part of the religious experience or language, He'd have made sure His Son was born to a princess in a palace with all the creature comforts and servants, and never wanting for anything. The Son of God certainly would not have grown up hanging around other poor folks and society rejects and tax collectors and street people and fishermen and what I suppose you could have regarded as that era's blue-collar workers. If you read the New Testament, you may notice that the tom delays and bushes and frists and dobsons and falwells and robertsons of that time were the villains, NOT the good guys. THeir counterparts were known as Pharisees.

[Ready4Change]

5. Good? Yes. Hardline? No.

To me, if you can keep in mind that man is fallable and God is merciful, then yes, you can be both a good Catholic and Liberal.

Loose sight of those things, and you will fail to be both a good Liberal and Catholic.

My .02

[Vincardog]

6. Your question forces the answer no

By defining "good Catholic" to mean follow the church's teachings, doctrine and papal rules. You disallow the independent mind and judgment required to be a liberal.

[WildEyedLiberal]

7. I think to be a good Catholic

One must follow the teachings of Christ and always listen to one's conscience above all. The main teachings of the church are not at odds with liberal philosophy, and even auxiliary issues do not have to be. It is my belief, for instance, that one can be pro-life (from conception to natural death, no exceptions) and still be quite liberal. (For the record, I am pro-choice, in the legal sense at least.) In addition, the catechism specifically instructs Catholics to treat homosexuals, as everyone, with respect. (Not trying to start a flamewar about the church's position on gays, just stating what the catechism says per the original question.)

To be liberal is to be open-minded, tolerant, altruistic, loving, and generous. I would say that really the only way to be a truly good Catholic is to be all of those things.

[earthside]

19. That's Protestantism.

What you just described here sounds more like mainstream Protestantism than the theology of the Roman Church.

Since the Roman Catholic Church is a patrimony, the problem is that the laity are totally at the mercy of the hierachy ... not much room for listening to one's conscience within the confines of this church.

[WildEyedLiberal]

21. I know perfectly well what Catholicism is, thank you

And I know plenty of "good Catholics" who are liberal. Their respect for human rights and compassion rules their judgment. Assuming that Catholics "don't listen to their consciences" is insulting, to myself and the millions of other liberal "good" Catholics out there.

[BootinUp]

9. Can you be against the RW and be a good American?

sarcastic question I know.

I think someone who considers themselves a practicing Catholic and a liberal should be allowed to think of themselves as good.

[dignan27]

10. Long answer Yes with an If, short answer No with a But n/t

[The Straight Story]

11. Part of being in a faith (like catholic)

Is giving up some things you believe are right and putting faith into something else which - ie (perhaps) you put aside your own observations and ideals willingly because you believe that a higher power knows more than you do. What makes no sense to you as an individual you accept (even if you question it) because your core belief is that there is something/someone of a higher intelligence who understands it all better.

As an example of this from work - my engineers (I have 25 now that report to me) trust me even when some of the things I ask them to do seem like a waste of time or silly. But then I am on all the conference calls and know more about the direction of the company and such then they do. I cannot communicate all I know to them due to several factors (legal issues, personell issues, long range plans that may change, etc).

So I think people stay in a faith/religion because they believe that someone higher up knows what they are doing - even if it does not make sense on a micro level.

Just my 2 cents.

[screembloodymurder]

12. Let's not pick on Catholics. Can you be a good Christian and a

LIBERAL? Or, can you be a good democrat, but not liberal? Given a narrow enough definition you could have a party of one.

[matcom]

13. true but this IS specific

obviously because of the controversy

[Zhade]

36. Um, aren't Catholics Christians?

NT!

[TahitiNut]

14. When it comes to IMPOSING one's own dogma upon others, No.

This is the point which constantly gets muddied. Being pro-choice does NOT mean 'pro-abortion.' It means PRO-CONSCIENCE. Our civil lwas should never be used to impose dogma. Unless there is a clear harm to another, any beahvior undertaken by a consenting adult should be "hands off" in terms of law.

I don't give a damned if someone else wants to be anti-abortion .. just as long as the keep their dogma off my laws.

When it comes to threatening politicians with excommunication if they don't use their power to impose religious dogma on the citizenry, I say the religion has gone WAY TOO FAR. It would be enough to make me say not to elect Catholics henceforth if that the way the dogma barks.

[The Straight Story]

15. To better answer your question

Sorry if I got off topic before (to a certain degree). Being catholic and adhering to a belief system of your own free will does not mean that you cannot be liberal on a political front.

As I have always said: Jesus did not tell his followers to go out and change the government, he wanted them to change the hearts and minds of people. Anything can be legal - but if a person does not desire to do it (ala changed heart) then legality is of no matter.

I am a conservative christian, but on a personal level. I don't want my version of right and wrong to be imposed on others - I want them to have the freedom God has given me to make choices. I choose this life, I didn't have it forced on me and I don't think forcing it on others is right.

[yvr girl]

16. I'm not a Catholic but I am a Christian

I do go to church but my first allegiance is to God not a denomination.

My political beliefs and my religious beliefs are not in complete agreement with each other.

I want the freedom to live my life (within reason) the way I choose. Fairness demands that I allow others to have this same freedom.

I'll give you an example of how I work this out. I'm not in favour of abortion. I could never get one myself. I wish there were no unwanted pregnancies, but that's not the case. There's rape and incest and...accidents. I have a dear friend who was using protection who got pregnant and she chose to end it. We had one discussion about it (after the fact) and that's it. We were closer afterward.

I'm also pragmatic enough to know that outlawing abortion is not going to stop it, it will just make it unsafe for women who can't afford to go elsewhere.

A church I went to attacked the problem by opening up a home for expectant (young) mothers. They could either keep the baby or give it up for adoption. They were taught some life skills and given support.

I can support peoples' rights without agreeing with their choices. If someone asks my opinion I'll give it to them. My friend asked my opinion and I gave her a VERY honest answer, but I did it in such a way that our relationship was not damaged.

It's a fine line, but it can be walked.

[bhunt70]

29. very nice representation of being true to yourself and what you believe.

[tallahasseedem]

17. I dont believe so...

that is why I left the church shortly after the election.

[merbex]

18. Your conscience says you can. This Church says you

can't

It is what makes being an American Catholic so difficult

I left the Church for a number of reasons- one of them your question.

This Church really wants absolute obedience; don't think or use reason. The manmade rules of the Church are what really upsets me.

[DanCa]

20. Is God really left or right?

I mean lets look at the flip side of the question. Going to war without reason, shooting people on site (Florida Gun Bill), not helping the poor and sick, and supporting the death penality I dont see my god supporting these positions. However I would find it morally apprehensible to deny anyone service or entry into a church
regardless of thier stance on reproductive issues, political affiliation or sexual orientation. I am not Kreskin, I cannot read someone's heart and mind and tell them to take a walk because I have a disagreement with them.

I am a liberal and I attend Episcopal mass whenever my legs work. And I personally find it offensive whenever Fawell or Robertson attacks anyone and defines what it means to be Christian my skin bristles. I am also sick and tired of being told by people that am going to H E double hockey sticks because I want a cure for my parkinsons.

Maybe instead of wondering if god accepts us based on political viewpoints the higher power judges us on how we treat each other on a personal level. Note this is just my ramblings so please ignore the typos and I am sorry if I offended anyone. Have a gentle and healthy day people. The world has just gotten alot nastier.

[Tweed]

22. Considering the fact that most Catholics are Democrats.... YES!

At least we vote better than Protestants for crying out loud. Jesus said to help the poor. That's what Democrats do. Jesus said take care of the sick, that's what Democrats do.

[seabeyond]

23. not per the new pope lol lol n/t

[ComerPerro]

24. Depends what you mean by "Good Catholic"

If you mean, in the sense of blind obedience, then I don't imagine you can. Catholics are supposed to be anti-abortion and unquestioningly obediant.

But it is very possible to be a good person who is Catholic while holding liberal values such as use of contraception and pro-choice causes.


The church's stance on political issues seems irrelevant to me. I don't see why disagreeing with the church on a moral issue makes one a bad Catholic.

But that's why I am not a memeber of organized religion. Its bullshit.

So I am probably not the right person to ask.

[Doctor_J]

25. My daughter is

she belives the teaching that the church is whatever she wants to it be - the congregants ARE the church. She is strongly anti-death (war, capital punishment, abortion (not rights)), studies the New Testament, serves at food pantries and other events for the underprivledged, goes on mission trips. She has the advantage of living on a college campus, where a good % of the parishoners are liberals, but even before that she managed to reconcile her Catholicism with liberal social views.

There are alot of them out there - they just aren't allowed on TV and don't have the huge financial backing of the wingers.

[PATRICK]

26. Only God is good

buty the term 'good' here seems to mean obedient, like a "good" German. The labels are posionous according to power conventions. So are the abused adjectives.

I remeber the liberal/conservative split since Vatican II, mostly schmoozed over by the long papacy of John Paul who reinstalled iron discipline in the structure and doctrinal areas. It sort of mirrors our political state of affairs in America.

The Pope is not God or the Church anymore than Bush is America, but...

The term "liberal Catholics" seemed to have been neatly swept into the pale of the RW demonization though it is not the same thing as the more progressive views here. Believe me, unless you are an avid Ratzinger fan who enjoyed his crushing of dissent over the years no Catholic in the mainstream who knows him likes him(Germans for example). The particular "crushees" are not even fairly represented in the sample. The thinkers and teachers have met with far more persecution and greater damage has been done to the brain and heart of the Church than one would have the energy to list here.

The process of choosing the Pope has been stacked for years to this effect but the dominance of the Roman Curia has not changed in centuries- and not this time either it appears.

[Zynx]

27. If you want to say you want Catholics out of the Democratic Party...

and for that matter other Christians, good luck to you. An all atheist party won't get you very far.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HamdenRice]

31. Two words answer:

Catholic Worker

[fishnfla]

32. 2 more words

Liberation theology

[Stinky The Clown]

33. So long as choice is an issue, the answer is a simple "no"

and that's why I am no longer a "good" catholic.

I am a good man (I honestly believe).

I am a liberal.

The Catholic Church made me choose many years ago.

They lost a member of the faithful.

There are other issues besides choice, but choice is the biggie. I'd actually like to be a Catholic again, but I just can't abide their earthly doctrine.

[HamdenRice]

34. I think a lot of people misunderstood your question ...

and basically answered that you could follow the teachings of Jesus and be liberal. I take your question to be asking whether a person can be a serious Catholic, taking communion, your practices conformed to and accepted by the Catholic Church.

I don't think that's a very easy question to answer, and depends on your definition of liberal. But I think JPII's doctrine shows a partial answer.

He was anti-choice, but also anti-death penalty. He was against liberation theology but dedicated to service of the poor, against soulless Marxism, but also against soulless capitalism.

I think to answer that question, you have to imagine a Catholic person following all the doctrines of the Church and simultaneously committed to the peace movement, environmental justice, racial equality, eradicating poverty -- but constrained by patriarchy, church hiearchy, opposition to birth control, the best insurance against poverty in developing countries. It's a complex balancing act, but could be done, and I believe routinely is.

[justgamma]

35. Since the Catholic nuns

were actively campagning for Democrats near here, I would think so.
The priests were writing ltte's in favor of Democrats. I would never question their beliefs.