Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

DU Catholics: What are your feelings about the new Pope?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
Sandpiper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 12:28 PM
Original message
DU Catholics: What are your feelings about the new Pope?
Edited on Tue Apr-19-05 12:28 PM by Sandpiper
As a non-Catholic, my own feelings are strictly confined to the disappointment I feel any time a conservative gets into power.

But what are the feelings of those of you, who are Catholic, and for whom the choice of a new Pope holds personal and/or spiritual significance?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
happynewyear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
1. disappointed and not surprised
and ....

Not planning on going anywhere near the Church anytime soon either.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
2. Pretty grossed out, not surprised
The last pope stacked the Cardinals with conservatives to make sure a guy like this got picked.

At least he's a placeholder pope, and won't be around long.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. I want you to understand that I am asking this in all seriousness...
does the fact the JPII stacked the Cardinals to make sure something like this happened impact your feelings about his legacy?

I'm interested in your opinion as well as the opinions of other DU Catholics on this given the highly charged discussions about his "legacy" right after JPII died.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #13
38. Yes. But there is a little more to it than that.
The fact is the Catholic Church has had a strong tradition of being highly political, and many of the recent decisions of the Church reflect this. I tend to believe that Pope JPII was a good soul, but was "handled" to reflect the conservative views of some very strong (Pope rat-man) personalities within the Church.

JPII's legacy, to me, is that he was a good man, but not strong enough to be canonized in that I believe that without strong pressure from his handlers he might never have engaged in hate speech against gays, he might never have protected those who protected pedophiles in the Church, and he may never have spoke against condoms & birth control which is having a devastating effect in third world countries.

His legacy should reflect what his actions have left us with. I am a very sad Catholic today.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #13
75. yes it makes me angry as a Catholic
I knew what JPII was up to but hoped and prayed for the best. Dare I say I guarentee Jesus is disappointed tonight? It does indeed affect my thoughts on JPII as well. He should have known better after seeing the evil that took over this country and changed direction. Perhaps it was too late for him by then.

:(
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LibraLiz1973 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #2
54. Your right, PJ2 did stack the deck. However
he did not appoint Ratzinger.

The whole thing is disturbing but not at all shocking
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
3. Profoundly saddened...
Just what this world needs...another rigid, intolerant leader. Sigh...
:cry:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
4. Disappointment. Now it is done and we will see what he does.
On to the next thing - I don't want to keep focusing on this. What good will it do? What will it accomplish? Nothing.

When do the Bolton Hearings/Vote start? 2:15 ET on C-span2?

Enough Pope chat.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SteppingRazor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
5. Saddened, but hardly surprised
JP II was pretty progressive, as far as the Roman Catholic Church goes. It was inevitable that the pendulum would swing the other way. I held out hope for Cardinal Madini, but I knew it wasn't likely.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sean Reynolds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
6. I don't really know.....
Personally he was opposed to the war in Iraq and opposed to the death penalty. He also opposes birth control and homosexuality. The saving grace is that he's old....so no matter what his ideology, he won't be on this planet for long.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
7. Horrified.
He was picked on the anniversary of Hitler's birthday. That says more to me than I need to know.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. OMG...You're right! *sigh* n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mr_Scarecrow Donating Member (228 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. It's symbolic
because he was interred at a concentration camp in Nazi Germany.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #7
28. Today is the 19th
Hitler's birthday is the 20th. And no, I'm not defending Rat Zinger.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #28
36. It's still a dark day
OK City bombing, Waco.

And, what day is it in Rome - how many hours are they ahead of us?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #36
44. A dark day, indeed
Now we can add election of Ratzinger to OK City and Waco. As for time difference, there's a six hour difference between NYC and Rome.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LibraLiz1973 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #7
55. DELETE
Edited on Tue Apr-19-05 03:23 PM by LibraLiz1973
DELETE
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
booksenkatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
8. Are we allowed to say?
I certainly got the impression that, had I posted my mixed feelings about the last pope, I would have been excommunicated from DU. Don't want to take that chance by stating my feelings about this new pope! I always find censorship at DU to be so uncomfortable, whatever the topic.

At any rate, good luck with your thread, Sandpiper! LOL

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mr_Scarecrow Donating Member (228 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
10. I am so excited he has been elected.
Now the 24/7 CNN Pope-athon will wind down and we can get back to the Michael Jackson trial.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
27. LMAO!! Back To The Important Stuff...
Eh?

Too funny!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
12. I'm Lapsed. This Just Seals the Lapse More.
That said, it's their religion. They can pick whoever they want. It's not like we can pick a Liberal Democratic pope. A religion has its own defining standards---to ask it to be otherwise calls for a different religious denomination.

Other things: He's JP II without the charisma. He's 78, can only go for 5, 10 max, years. For him to lead in an even more Rightwing direction only means further diminishing of the church rolls and priests. About the only issue on which there can be room for him to do something positive is regarding the pedaphile priests.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
14. Optimistic and happy that the Church has found a new spiritual leader
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
15. I'm not surprised but I am still disappointed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
16. No problems
Edited on Tue Apr-19-05 12:59 PM by Tinoire
He's doctrinally sound and that's the main thing I need in a Pope. I think too many people fail to understand that the Catholic Church is not a democracy, it's an institution with one mission in life- upholding the Catholic faith as it has been revealed through the Holy Writings and explained by Church Doctors. Cardinal Ratzinger has been so maligned recently that few know that he was one of the prime movers for ecumenical engagement after Vatican II.

There's a reason the Catholic Church is against abortion. That will NEVER change no matter how much people complain about it. There's a reason it's against same-sex marriage and that too will NEVER change.

It's also time American (Catholics) realized that the entire world doesn't revolve around our little American microcosm.

Take it or leave it. The Catholic Church because is the most theologically sound one I know. If you believe in the promise of Jesus, who is God in the Catholic Church, when He founded His Church and told Peter that the gates of Hell wouldn't prevail against it no matter how hard they tried, why be worried? To be worried is to not trust the Holy Spirit, to not trust Jesus, to not trust God if you're a Catholic.

Be Not Afraid, He said. I am not afraid. The Church has been here over 2000 years and weathered all sorts of storms. They're not going to rewrite the faith for Liberal Americans anymore than they did for Henry VIII and anymore than Orthodox Jews are going to start eating pork. It's time to get over it.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Well said!
:applause:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KitSileya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. I must admit I am saddened, but I agree with you, Tinoire.
I disagree violently with Pope Benedict's stance on condoms, and on abortion in cases of rape, incest, and mother's health, but other than that - I agree with his stance on the death penalty, on war, on the sharing of resources (economy). I don't like his record of stifling discussions - but I am not sure he'll continue being such a rottweiler on that issue now that he's pope. It was a definite responibility of his previous job to be a guard dog, but whether he will be so intractable now?

I believe in the Holy Mystery of the Eucharist. I believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins, repaid our debt, and founded His Church on the rock of Peter. I believe in the sanctity of the Sacraments. That is why I converted to the Catholic Church. I will no less abandon the Church because Josef Cardinal Ratzinger was elected Pope than I will abandon the democratic ideal and the population of the United States because they elected Bush - twice, no less.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Thanks to you and to Squatch
I am glad some people understand. I personally would have preferred someone with a more charismatic appeal, especially after John Paul II but that's personal and irrelevant.

KitSileya, can we talk about your conversion off-line? I'm always fascinated by conversions to Catholocism because the strength to convert requires a depth of theological thought & consistency that seems only parallelled in Judaism. I am so relieved to see others standing firm. If we cannot stand up for our beliefs, what are we?

I trust, totally trust the Holy Spirit, totally trust God.

And to DUers who would like to scoff, THINK TWICE. THINK THREE DAMN TIMES because some of the things I've read here today and these last weeks should spell out to even the most moronic idiot why the Democratic Party is not doing very well with the Muslim or Judeo-Christian vote. If you can accommodate a bunch of fools who believed in something as made-up, as STUPID, as ILLOGICAL as WMDs in Iraq and authorized an immoral war that is slaughtering innocents ALL OVER this world under a concept as risible as a "war on drugs terrorism, then what problem dare you have with people who believe in a God that you cannot see?

Pax
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. The Grand Inquisitor tried to influence elections in my country:
http://www.priestsforlife.org/magisterium/bishops/04-07ratzingerommunion.htm

<snip>
5. Regarding the grave sin of abortion or euthanasia, when a person’s formal cooperation becomes manifest (understood, in the case of a Catholic politician, as his consistently campaigning and voting for permissive abortion and euthanasia laws), his Pastor should meet with him, instructing him about the Church’s teaching, informing him that he is not to present himself for Holy Communion until he brings to an end the objective situation of sin, and warning him that he will otherwise be denied the Eucharist.

6. When "these precautionary measures have not had their effect or in which they were not possible," and the person in question, with obstinate persistence, still presents himself to receive the Holy Eucharist, "the minister of Holy Communion must refuse to distribute it" (cf. Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts Declaration "Holy Communion and Divorced, Civilly Remarried Catholics" <2002>, nos. 3-4). This decision, properly speaking, is not a sanction or a penalty. Nor is the minister of Holy Communion passing judgement on the person’s subjective guilt, but rather is reacting to the person’s public unworthiness to receive Holy Communion due to an objective situation of sin.


<snip>

Whether they be Osama bin Laden or the Grand Inquisitor, fundie extremists who attack American democracy are my personal enemies. I can only hope that new puffs of white smoke arrive very, very soon.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
aneerkoinos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #23
49. Thinking
"I trust, totally trust the Holy Spirit, totally trust God."

If you really do so, then what do you need Church and Papal (patriarchal) authority for?

A Patriarch that declares hell for all non-Catholics, for that matter?

What's the problem trusting your inner voice, the voice of your heart, the voice of Holy Spirit, why accept the Papal authority over that voice?

Spiritual socialists and humanists do have a problem with all forms of manmade earthly fundamentalist religion, whether evangelical, catholic or islamic, for a good reason. The reason is that those earthly structures are anti-spiritual, anti-socialist, anti-humanist and anti-christian, destructive structures causing more suffering than alleviating.

Yes, anti-christian. Progressive social christianity and spirituality finds more in common with gnosticism, sufism, all true universalist (mystic) religions and practices, than medieval and pre-medieval patriarchalism, religions of earthly power.

Fishing for fundamentalist votes is not worth loosing ones soul.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LibraLiz1973 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #23
57. But.. Tinoire, we DIDN'T believe that
Your confusing us with Republicans.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #57
62. LMAO. Good one
Edited on Tue Apr-19-05 04:19 PM by Tinoire
I SERIOUSLY hope you're joking. I have tons of threads book-marked. From the 9-11 "let's all rally around President Bush" to "you silly goose, prove there are no WMDs" to "If so many Dems voted for it, it must be true".

This war was a disgusting bi-partisan effort and we better not ever forget that.

Sometimes I'm more disgusted by us than I am of the Republicans. They at least have the courage of their warmongering convictions which says less about us than it does about them.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
aneerkoinos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #62
73. Yes
I fear the smart realist imperialists (Dems) more than the faith-based "manifest destiny" fascists (Rethuligans). The latter are much more ineffective in suppressing and killing people in the long run.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #23
93. because i am not catholic
Edited on Tue Apr-19-05 10:43 PM by seabeyond
doesnt mean i dont believe in god. and because catholic believe i am going to hell because i am not catholic can be offensive. surely you can give me that. and the catholic religion has stepped into our politics, and is now stepping into our law. surely i can be bothered with that. since this is your religion, surely you have some responsibility in this if nothing else, allowing me to be bothered, wiht at least a bit of understanding on your part. why are the dems getting blamed for being upset with catholics trying to interfer in constitutional law or say, this new pope going after one of his own, kerry, to influence our elections and getting his people to not ????? cant remember what it is called, communion
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IMSA Donating Member (87 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. I Agree
He's been Pope for all of 2 hours and everyone's running around saying " the sky is falling". I would think DUer's would be a little more open minded. My mistake.

IMSA
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
scarlet_owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #16
34. Very well said. Thank you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lastliberalintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #16
52. But he also opposes liberal economic policies
He has bashed the "Marxist" economies, governments and universities of Europe and has supported totalitarian regimes in developing countries because their opposition were left wing socialists. I'd say there are pretty good reasons to "malign" the man.


I just don't get it, I guess, since I am not a Catholic. I'm glad for Catholics who are happy with him, sad for those who aren't. However, this is the only religion I know of whose headquarters has statehood status- status which gives the Vatican a seat at the table of world leaders.

Ratzinger is now not only the Pope, but also a Head of State. And as such, when the Vatican elects a right wing leader it impacts us all- which is why there are so many people who are upset. It's one thing to say that the RCC is opposed to contraception or gay rights- most other "mainstream" religions are too. But when the Vatican carries that hatred and misogyny into UN discussions/meetings/etc. by virtue of its state status and seat in that body, then it goes well beyond mere church dogma. JMHO.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #52
66. You're very easy to talk with lastliberalintexas
I don't think Ratzinger is a right-winger. He was against this war and one of the main proponents of Vatican II, very, very involved in the oecumenical movement. The world, imo, is in a very dangerous situation right now where we are being manouvered into religious wars by pseudo Christian, pseudo Jewish and pseudo Muslim string pullers. One of the main reasons the choose Ratzinger is because, now more than ever, we need to continue the interfaith dialogue that John Paul II started.

I can't comment on your last sentence because I haven't heard of them doing that (not that I would be overly surprised); I don't agree if they do/did. They only have observer status at the UN though and can't vote. Personally, I was very glad to have them there during the run-up to the war. Thanks for your nice post.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lastliberalintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #66
71. Thanks, Tinoire
I've always enjoyed your posts, and especially your research! I'm afraid there are some here who would certainly disagree with your opinion of me, though!

I do agree with your characterization of so many of these people as pseudo-religious, as that is how I've referred to them as well. For far too many of them it seems that their religion is just a cover or a shield for their true agendas. It's very sad that they've been able to make it to positions of power where they can actually pursue their goals.

I know it's only Observer Status, but it is still much more than the other religious organizations of the world get. I'd just rather they all stay out of politics, regardless of their nation state status.

My main concern with Ratzinger is that he has apparently been the guiding force of the Vatican for many years now, the man behind the curtain if you will. At his direction, the Church has refocused its attentions and energies away from the social and economic justice issues and onto issues such as abortion, gay rights, contraception and married clergy. It seems that his actions show us what he feels is important, and I don't like what I see. Add to that his comments deriding leftist economic theories, and I become very concerned. I only hope that he can be contained somewhat, and that the Church at least stays focused on the economic justice for which it has been known.

And I guess it is now only appropriate to call him Pope Benedict? I'll have to remember that!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #66
95. Tinoire, you don't know what the heck you are talking about.
Rat not a right-winger? Who are you trying to fool with that BS? This guy was literally a Nazi Youth in his youth. You think Nazis were left-wingers? No, they were authoritarian right-wingers, just like Rat is.

He was there at the Holocaust supporting it. On the *front lines* supporting the Holocaust. This guy is a right-winger if anyone has ever seen one. And you can bet he supported the Iraq War, despite John Paul's views on the Unjust War.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-05 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #95
97. Haha. Sorry W4rma. You 're stubbornly uniformed on this issue.
I've refrained from commenting on your posts because you're just looking for a fight but your closed-minded stubborness on this issue does you no favors.

"The guy was literally a Nazi" - do you know how UNINFORMED you sound? It's one thing to dislike Ratzinger for his conservative Catholic beliefs. It's a totally different thing to remain stubbornly uninformed and repeat nonesense. These little insinuations are well refuted by the ADL, the AJC and the Jerusalem Post which has no historical love of Catholics.

ADL Welcomes Election of Cardinal Ratzinger as New Pope

New York, NY, April 19, 2005 … The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) today welcomed the election of German Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger as the new Pope, Benedict XVI. Under his leadership in Germany and Rome, the Catholic Church made important strides in improving Catholic-Jewish relations and atoning for the sin of anti-Semitism. Cardinal Ratzinger has been a leader in this effort and has made important statements in the spirit of sensitivity and reconciliation with the Jewish people.

Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director, issued the following statement:

We welcome the new Papacy of Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. From the Jewish perspective, the fact that he comes from Europe is important, because he brings with him an understanding and memory of the painful history of Europe and of the 20th Century experience of European Jewry.

Having lived through World War II, Cardinal Ratzinger has great sensitivity to Jewish history and the Holocaust. He has shown this sensitivity countless times, in meetings with Jewish leadership and in important statements condemning anti-Semitism and expressing profound sorrow for the Holocaust. We remember with great appreciation his Christmas reflections on December 29, 2000, when he memorably expressed remorse for the anti-Jewish attitudes that persisted through history, leading to "deplorable acts of violence" and the Holocaust. Cardinal Ratzinger said: "Even if the most recent, loathsome experience of the Shoah (Holocaust) was perpetrated in the name of an anti-Christian ideology, which tried to strike the Christian faith at its Abrahamic roots in the people of Israel, it cannot be denied that a certain insufficient resistance to this atrocity on the part of Christians can be explained by an inherited anti-Judaism present in the hearts of not a few Christians."

Though as a teenager he was a member of the Hitler Youth, all his life Cardinal Ratzinger has atoned for the fact. In our years of working on improving Catholic-Jewish ties, ADL has had opportunities to work with Cardinal Ratzinger. We look forward to continuing that relationship.

The Anti-Defamation League, founded in 1913, is the world's leading organization fighting anti-Semitism through programs and services that counteract hatred, prejudice and bigotry.

http://www.adl.org/PresRele/VaticanJewish_96/44698_96.htm

On edit more with thanks to Princess Turandot:

New York – The American Jewish Committee today congratulated the Catholic Church and Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger on his election as the 265th pope, Benedict XVI.

"Cardinal Ratzinger already has shown a profound commitment to advancing Catholic-Jewish relations, and we look forward to continuing our close working relationship with the church," said Rabbi David Rosen, AJC's international director of interreligious affairs.

"We hope the church will continue to show the same sensitivity to Jewish concerns and needs as did the late John Paul II."

AJC is the leading American Jewish interlocutor with the Catholic Church in the U.S. and at the Vatican.

http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/nfo/article.cfm?id=3906

The Simon Wiesenthal Center congratulates Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger on becoming Pope Benedict XVI.

"I hope that he will continue to build on the legacy of Pope John Paul II’s special relationship with the Jewish people," said Rabbi Marvin Hier, founder and dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center. "The new Pope, like his predecessor, was deeply influenced by the events of WWII," he said. "As a child, Pope Benedict XVI grew up in an anti-Nazi family. Nonetheless he was forced to join the Hitler Youth movement during the Second World War."

Rabbi Hier continued, "Pope John Paul II dramatically changed the Catholic Church forever in reaching out to other religions, particularly Judaism. I am confident that the Vatican under the leadership of Pope Benedict XVI will continue to build on those remarkable achievements and organizations like the Simon Wiesenthal Center look forward to being partners in that process."

http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/nfo/article.cfm?id=3906



The choice of Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger as the new pope on Tuesday, Jewish religious leaders say, is a sign that the warming ties initiated by Pope John Paul II between the Vatican and Jews will continue.

The Roman Catholic Church's leading conservative, the German Ratzinger was elected the new pope in the first conclave of the new millennium by cardinals intent on sticking to conservative policy. Ratzinger is the first Germanic pope in roughly 1,000 years.

"His election is confirmation of the cardinals on the issue of continuity," Rabbi David Rosen told The Jerusalem Post Tuesday. "There's not a single issue in which the new pope will not be in complete accord with his predecessor. After all, his predecessor appointed him to the most important theological post in the Catholic Church.

"This continuity will be reflected in Catholic-Jewish relations. He has a deep commitment to this issue. And his own national background makes him sensitive to the dangers of anti-Semitism and the importance of Jewish-Catholic reconciliation," said Rosen, the international director of interreligious affairs for the American Jewish Committee.

"He was also supportive of the establishment of full relations between the Holy See and Israel, and he cares deeply about the welfare of the State of Israel," added Rosen.

(snip)

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1113877273080

===

ON THE WAR:

Cardinal Ratzinger Says Unilateral Attack on Iraq Not Justified: Gives Personal Opinion; Favors Decision from U.N.

Article Text: TRIESTE, Italy, SEPT. 22, 2002 (www.Zenit.org ).- Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger does not believe that a unilateral military attack by the United States against Iraq would be morally justifiable, under the current circumstances.

According to the prefect of the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith -- who acknowledged that political questions are not within his competence -- "the United Nations is the that should make the final decision."

"It is necessary that the community of nations makes the decision, not a particular power," the cardinal said, after receiving the 2002 Trieste Liberal Award. His statements were published Saturday in the Italian newspaper Avvenire.

"The fact that the United Nations is seeking the way to avoid war, seems to me to demonstrate with enough evidence that the damage would be greater than the values one hopes to save," the cardinal said.

He said that "the U.N. can be criticized" from several points of view, but "it is the instrument created after the war for the coordination -- including moral -- of politics."

The "concept of a 'preventive war' does not appear in the Catechism of the Catholic Church," Cardinal Ratzinger noted.

"One cannot simply say that the catechism does not legitimize the war," he continued. "But it is true that the catechism has developed a doctrine that, on one hand, does not exclude the fact that there are values and peoples that must be defended in some circumstances; on the other hand, it offers a very precise doctrine on the limits of these possibilities."

The Vatican official appealed to the three religions derived from Abraham to offer the Ten Commandments as the means to dissuade terrorists.

"The Decalogue is not the private property of Christians or Jews," Cardinal Ratzinger said. "It is a lofty expression of moral reason that, as such, is also found in the wisdom of other cultures. To refer again to the Decalogue might be essential precisely to restore reason."


http://www.coc.org/resources/articles/display.html?ID=278
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #52
67. dupe
Edited on Tue Apr-19-05 04:16 PM by Tinoire
n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LibraLiz1973 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #16
56. Just because it's always been that way doesn't make it right.
Edited on Tue Apr-19-05 03:25 PM by LibraLiz1973
Persecuting gays, denying birth control & being downright cruel does not a positive religion make.

Edited to say: The world has & will continue to evolve. To continue to try and fit a square peg in a round hole is just sad.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #16
58. the Church would do better to rewrite its faith
or it will cease to exist, at least in any meaningful fashion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
placton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #16
59. St. Thomas Aquinas
sanctioned abortion - in the 1st 2 tri-mesters. The Church's position is relatively recent that abortion is a sin - within the last couple of hundred years.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hector459 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #16
72. Will the stance on birth control change? Thou shalt not use contraceptiv
where is that written? Otherwise, I think you make some great points.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #72
90. I don't think so. In a way they do allow birth control
Catholics can resort to coitus interruptus and the rythm method, in other words, physics not chemistry ;)

This isn't my area but I do recall hearing some atheists scientists who had no problem with birth control/abortion defending JP IIs stance on it and saying that it made total sense and was consistent. I wish I had payed closer attention.

Will you give me time to think about this one. It's a hard one because birth control has never been an important issue for me. The church is against for 3 main reasons I think- 1 because they view most methods as abortificants; 2 because they don't believe in sex outside of marriage and 3 because there's more to life, it believes, than limiting the number of children you have so that you can have 2 cars in the garage. #3 ties into their entire bit about relativism, consumerism, materialism which inevitably lead to exploitation of the poor pretending that there's not enough to go around when we all know there is.

Have you noticed it's always the poor who are supposed to not have children? When the Haitian refugees were herded to camps in Guantanamo Bay, the women were forcefully given shots of Depo-Provera. That galls me because there's something inherently unjust about forcing this on other people just because they're poor. They wouldn't be so poor if we didn't exploit them. Haiti is a tragic example of how 100 consistent years of our racism, our economic embargoes, our meddling and our exploitation impoverished an entire people and intends to keep them in that state. Anyway I drifted. My point is that we steal their land, steal their resources, set them up in slave factories and then tell them they can't have children. To me there's something wrong with that.

I don't think the Catholic Church really cares if my little Yuppie sister uses birth control anymore than they care if I steal a pen from work. Both are wrong. Both actions are between me, my conscience and God and that's a great belief but when it comes to pushing technologies to control and exploit the rest of the world, turning it into our own private, managed work force, I think there's a problem and that as respecters of all life, rich, poor, handicapped, able-bodied, it's our duty to speak out.

I don't think this made much sense. It's very hard for me to put this into words, especially as tired as I am this week but I hope you could at least follow the logic, even if you don't agree with it. I'd like to see us work for social justice with social safety nets for people in our country and a respect for the resources of other countries where we allow them to manage their own resources and bodies. I do not like to see my country foisting unhealthy coca-cola and junk products with overly sexualized marketing upon the rest of the world as we steal their resources. What right have we to steal everyone's resources only to pretend we cannot feed the world and push birth control on them?

Have you ever read the books of Scott Hahn? He was a Presbyterian Minister who converted to Catholicism after a long journey begun when his wife/fiancee(?) was writing a paper on birth control at the seminiary. Anyway, he goes into great detail about it in his book. This is a shortened version that he published on the internet to share with people- the explanations in his books are a lot more detailed but birth control lit the spark to his conversion.

Here. Read it in his own words... The book is fascinating, I highly recommend it if only out of intellectual curiosity.

Sorry for drifting so much!

    The first thing was a course that Kimberly took her first year,
    a class that I had taken the year before entitled Christian Ethics. Dr.
    Davis had all the students break up into small groups so that each small
    group could tackle one topic. There was a small group on abortion, a
    small group on nuclear war, a small group on capital punishment. One
    dinner she announced that she was in a small group devoted to studying
    contraception. I remember thinking at the time, "Why contraception?"

    The year before when I took the class, nobody signed up for that
    small group and I told her. She said, "Well, three others have signed up
    for it and we had our first meeting today. So and so appointed himself
    to be chair of the committee, and he announced the results of our study
    even before it began. He said, 'Well, we all know as Protestants, as
    Bible Christians, that contraception is fine, I mean so long as we don't
    use contraceptives that are abortafacients like the I.U.D. and so on.'
    He announced further that really the only people who call themselves
    Christians who oppose artificial birth control are the Catholics, and he
    said, 'The reason they do, of course, is because they are run by a
    celibate Pope and lead by celibate priests who don't have to raise the
    kids but want Catholic parents to raise lots so they can have lots of
    priests and nuns to draw from, you know.'"

    Well, that kind of argumentation did not really impress
    Kimberly. She said, "Are you sure those are the best arguments they
    would offer?" And I guess he must have mocked or said, "Well, do you
    want to look into it yourself?" You don't say that kind of thing to
    Kimberly. She said, "Yes," and she took an interest in researching this
    on her own. A week went by and Terry stopped me in the halls. He said,
    "You ought to talk to your wife; she's unearthed some interesting
    information about contraception." Interesting information about
    contraception? What is interesting about contraception? Well, you know
    he said, "She's your wife; you ought to find out." "Yeah, all right; I
    will, Terry."

    So that night at dinner I asked her, "What is Terry talking
    about?" And she said, "I've discovered that up until 1930, every single
    Protestant denomination without exception opposed contraception on
    Biblical grounds." Then I said, "Oh come on, maybe it just took us a few
    centuries to work out the last vestiges of residual Romanism, I don't
    know." And she said, "Well, I'm going to look into it."

    Then another week later, Terry stopped me and said,"Her
    arguments make sense." I said, "Arguments against contraception from
    Scripture?" He said, "You ought to talk to her." "All right, I'll talk
    to her." You know, given the subject matter, I thought I better.

    So I raised the issue and she handed me a book. It was entitled
    Birth Control and the Marriage Covenant by John Kippley. It just
    recently was reissued, entitled Sex and the Marriage Covenant. You can
    get it from Couple to Couple League in Cincinnati. I began to read
    through the book with great interest because in my own personal study,
    going through the Bible several times, I had come upon this strong
    conviction that if you want to know God, you have to understand the
    covenant, because the covenant was the central idea in all of Scripture.
    So when I picked up this book I was interested to see the word
    'covenant' in the title, Birth Control and the Marriage Covenant. I
    opened it up and I began reading it, and I said, "Wait a second,
    Kimberly, this guy is a Catholic. You expect me to read a Catholic?" And
    the thought occurred to me instantly at that moment, What is a Catholic
    doing putting 'covenant' into his book title? Since when do Catholics
    hijack my favorite concept?

    Well, I began to read the book. I went through two or three
    chapters and he was beginning to make sense, so I promptly threw the
    book across my desk. I didn't frankly want him to make any sense. But I
    picked it up again and read through some more. His arguments made a lot
    of sense. From the Bible, from the covenant, he showed that the marital
    act is not just a physical act; it's a spiritual act that God has
    designed by which the marital covenant is renewed. And in all covenants
    you have an opportunity to renew the covenant, and the act of covenant
    renewal is an act or a moment of grace. When you renew a covenant, God
    releases grace, and grace is life, grace is power, grace is God's own
    love. Kippley shows how in a marital covenant, God has designed the
    marital act to show the life-giving power of love. That in the marital
    covenant the two become one, and God has designed it so that when the
    two become one, they become so one that nine months later you might just
    have to give it a name. And that child who is conceived, embodies the
    oneness that God has made the two through the marital act. This is all
    the way that God has designed the marital covenant. God said, "Let us
    make man in our image and likeness," and God, who is three in one, made
    man, male and female, and said, "Be fruitful and multiply." The two
    shall become one and when the two become one, the one they become is a
    third child, and then they become three in one. It just began to make a
    lot of sense, and he went through other arguments as well. By the time I
    finished the book, I was convinced.

    It bothered me just a little that the Roman Catholic Church was
    the only denomination, the only Church tradition on earth that upheld
    this age-old Christian teaching rooted in Scripture, because in 1930 the
    Anglican Church broke from this tradition and began to allow
    contraception, and shortly thereafter every single mainline denomination
    on earth practically caved in to the mounting pressure of the sexual
    revolution. By the 1960's and 70's, my own denomination, the
    Presbyterian Church in the United States of America, not only endorsed
    contraception, but abortion on demand and federal funding for abortion,
    and that appalled me. And I began to wonder if there wasn't a connection
    between giving in a little here and then all of a sudden watching the
    floodgates open later. I thought "No, no, you know the Catholic Church
    has been around for 2000 years; they're bound to get something right."
    We have a saying in our family that even a blind hog finds an acorn, and
    so it was, I thought. That was my second year.

    During my third and final year at seminary, something happened
    that represented a crisis for me. I was studying covenant and I heard of
    another theologian studying covenant, a man by the name of Professor
    Shepherd in Philadelphia teaching at Westminster Seminary. I heard about
    Shepherd because he was being accused of heresy. People were suggesting
    that his heresy grew out of his understanding of the covenant. So I got
    some documents that he had written, some articles, and I read through
    them. I discovered that Professor Shepherd had come across the same
    conclusions that my research had led me to.

    In the Protestant world the idea of covenant is understood
    practically as synonymous with or interchangeable with contract. When
    you have a covenant with God, it's the same as having a contract. You
    give God your sin; He gives you Christ, and everything is a faith-deal
    for salvation.

    But the more I studied, the more I came to see that for the
    ancient Hebrews, and in Sacred Scripture, a covenant differs from a
    contract about as much as marriage differs from prostitution. In a
    contract you exchange property, whereas in a covenant you exchange
    persons. In a contract you say, "This is yours and that is mine," but
    Scripture shows how in a covenant you say, "I am yours and you are
    mine." Even when God makes a covenant with us, He says, "I will be your
    God and you will be my people." After studying Hebrew, I discovered that
    'Am, the Hebrew word for people, literally means, kinsman, family. I
    will be your God and father; you will be my family, my sons and my
    daughters, my household. So covenants form kinship bonds which makes
    family with God.

    I read Shepherd's articles, and he was saying much of the same
    thing: our covenant with God means sonship. I thought, "Well, yeah, this
    is good." I wondered what heresy is involved in that. Then somebody told
    me, "Shepherd is calling into question sola fide." What! No way. I mean,
    that is the Gospel. That is the simple truth of Jesus Christ. He died
    for sins; I believe in him. He saves me, pure and simple; it's a done
    deal. Sola fide? He's questioning that? No way.

    I called him on the phone. I said, "I've read your stuff on
    covenant; it makes lots of sense. I've come to pretty much the same
    conclusions. But why is this leading you to call into question Luther's
    doctrine of sola fide?" He went on to show in this discussion that
    Luther's conception of justification was very restricted and limited. It
    had lots of truth, but it also missed lots of truths.

    When I hung up the phone, I pursued this a little further and I
    discovered that for Luther and for practically all of Bible Christianity
    and Protestantism, God is a judge, and the covenant is a courtroom scene
    whereby all of us are guilty criminals. But since Christ took our
    punishment, we get his righteousness, and he gets our sins, so we get
    off scot-free; we're justified. For Luther, in other words, salvation is
    a legal exchange, but for Paul in Romans, for Paul in Galatians,
    salvation is that, but it's much more than that. It isn't just a legal
    exchange because the covenant doesn't point to a Roman courtroom so much
    as to a Hebrew family room. God is not just simply a judge; God is a
    father, and his judgments are fatherly. Christ is not just somebody who
    represents an innocent victim who takes our rap, our penalty; He is the
    firstborn among many brethren. He is our oldest brother in the family,
    and he sees us as runaways, as prodigals, as rebels who are cut off from
    the life of God's family. And by the new covenant Christ doesn't just
    exchange in a legal sense; Christ gives us His own sonship so that we
    really become children of God.

    When I shared this with my friends, they were like, "Yeah,
    that's Paul." But when I went into the writings of Luther and Calvin, I
    didn't find it any longer. They had trained me to study Scripture, but
    in the process, in a sense, I discovered that there were some very
    significant gaps in their teaching. So I came to the conclusion that
    sola fide is wrong. First, because the Bible never says it anywhere.
    Second, because Luther inserted the word "alone" in his German
    translation, there in Romans 3, although he knew perfectly well that the
    word "alone" was not in the Greek. Nowhere did the Holy Spirit ever
    inspire the writers of Scripture to say we're saved by faith alone. Paul
    teaches we're saved by faith, but in Galatians he says we're saved by
    faith working in love. And that's the way it is in a family isn't it? A
    father doesn't say to his kids, "Hey, kids, since you're in my family
    and all the other kids who are your friends aren't, you don't have to
    work, you don't have to obey, you don't have to sacrifice because, hey,
    you're saved. You're going to get the inheritance no matter what you
    do." That's not the way it works.

    So I changed my mind and I grew very concerned. One of my most
    brilliant professors, a man named Dr. John Gerstner, had once said that
    if we're wrong on sola fide, I'd be on my knees outside the Vatican in
    Rome tomorrow morning doing penance. Now we laughed, what rhetoric, you
    know. But he got the point across; this is the article from which all of
    the other doctrines flow. And if we're wrong there, we're going to have
    some homework to get done to figure out where else we might have gone
    wrong. I was concerned, but I wasn't overly concerned. At the time I was
    planning to go to Scotland to study at Aberdeen University the doctrine
    of the covenant, because in Scotland, covenant theology was born and
    developed. And I was eager to go over and study there. So I wasn't
    particularly concerned about resolving this issue because, after all,
    that could be the focus of my doctoral study.

    Then all of a sudden we got news that our change in theory
    about contraception had brought about a change in Kimberly's anatomy and
    physiology; she was pregnant. And Margaret Thatcher was not interested
    in funding American babies being born in her great empire. So we looked
    at the situation; we realized that we couldn't afford to go over to
    Scotland just yet. We'd have to take a year off, but what were we going
    to do as we were drawing close to graduation? We weren't sure; we began
    to pray.

    ***Becomes Pastor of a Church in Virginia***

    The phone rang. A church in Virginia, a well-known church
    that I had heard a lot of good about called me up and said, "Would you
    consider coming down to candidate for the pastorate here?" This meant
    preaching a trial sermon, leading a Bible study, interviewing with the
    elders who ran the session. I said, "Sure." I went down, preached a
    sermon, led a Bible study, met with the session. They said, "That was
    great; we want you here. In fact we'll pay you well enough so that you
    can study at least 20 hours a week in Scripture and theology. We want
    you to preach, however, at least 45 minutes each Sunday morning to open
    up for us the Word." 45 minutes! Can you imagine what a priest would get
    if he preached for 45 minutes? The next week that sanctuary and the
    whole Church would be empty. Here they were asking me to preach at least
    45 minutes. I said, "If you insist, you know, twist my arm. Sure." And
    they said, "We want you to immerse us in the Word of God," and so I
    began.

    The first thing I did was to tell them about covenant. The
    second thing I did was to correct their misunderstanding of covenant as
    contract to show them that covenant means family. The third thing I did
    was to show them that the family of God makes more sense of who we are
    and what Christ has done than anything in the Bible. God is Father, God
    is Son, and God through the Holy Spirit has made us one family with Him.
    And as soon as I began to preach this and teach this, it just took off
    like wildfire. It spread through the parish; you could see it affecting
    marriages and families. It was exciting. The fourth thing I did, was to
    teach them about liturgy and covenant and family, that in Scripture the
    covenant is celebrated through liturgical worship whereby God's family
    gathers for a meal to celebrate the sacrifice of Christ. I suggested in
    my preaching and teaching that maybe we ought to have the family meal,
    communion. I even used the word "Eucharist." They never heard it before.
    I said, "Maybe we ought to celebrate being God's covenant-family by
    communion each week." "What?" I said, "Instead of being sermon-centered,
    why not have the sermon be a prelude and a preparation to enter into
    celebrating who we are as God's family?" They loved it.

    But one guy came up and said, "Every week? You know familiarity
    breeds contempt; you sure we should do it every week?" I said, "Well,
    wait a second. You know, do you say to you wife I love you only four
    times a year? After all, honey, familiarity breeds contempt. You know I
    don't want to kiss you more than four times a year." He looked and he
    said, "I get your point."

    As we changed our liturgy, we felt a change in our lived
    experience as a parish but also in our families as well. It was exciting
    to see, and as I taught them more about the covenant, they just hungered
    and thirsted for still more.

    Meanwhile, I was also teaching part time at the local Christian
    high school that met there at the church. I had some of the brightest
    students I have ever taught, and they also responded with enthusiasm to
    this covenant idea. I began to teach a course on salvation history, and
    at first they were scared because it was so confusing, all those names
    and places that you can't even pronounce much less make sense out of. So
    I showed them, "Hey, once you think of covenant as family, it's really
    quite simple." I took my students through the series of covenants in the
    Old Testament which led up to Christ. First, you have the covenant God
    makes with Adam; that's a marriage, a family bond. The second covenant
    is the one that God makes with Noah. That's a family, a household with
    Noah, his wife, his three sons, and their three wives; together they
    formed a family of God, a household of faith. Then in Abraham's time you
    actually have God's family growing to the extent where it becomes a
    tribal family. Then the next covenant God makes with Moses and Israel
    has twelve tribes that become one nation, but through the covenant they
    become God's national family. Until finally when Christ establishes the
    new covenant. Instead of having God's family identified with one nation,
    the distinctive greatness of the New Covenant, I taught them, was that
    now we have an international family, a world wide family -- a catholic
    family.

    One of my students raised her hand and said, "What would this
    look like if we could actually redevelop it?" I drew a pyramid on the
    board and I said, "Think of it like a big extended family with father
    and mother figures at all these different levels, and all of us being
    brothers and sisters in Christ. I heard somebody murmur in the back,
    "Sure looks like the Catholic Church to me." I said, "No, no, no! What
    I'm giving you is the solution to the problems, the antidote to the
    poison." Well, Rebecca came up one day at lunch time. I was eating lunch
    and she said, "We took a little vote in the back of the class; it's
    unanimous; we all think you're going to become a Roman Catholic." I
    choked on my sandwich, "Quiet, quiet. I don't want to lose my job, but
    Rebecca, I assure you that what I'm giving you is not Catholicism; it's
    the antidote to the poison of Catholicism." She just stood there looking
    at me, "No, it's unanimous, you're going to become a Catholic." And she
    turned around and walked away.

    Well, I was stunned by that. I went home that afternoon, walked
    into the kitchen, saw Kimberly over by the refrigerator and I said,
    "You'll never guess what Rebecca said today." "Tell me what, another
    Rebecca story?" I said. "Well, she came up at lunch time and announced
    that they had taken a vote in the back of the class, and it was
    unanimous that I'm going to become a Roman Catholic. Can you imagine
    that, me becoming a Catholic?" And she wasn't laughing one bit. She just
    stood there staring at me, she said, "Well, are you?" It was as though
    somebody plunged a dagger into my back. You know, "Et tu, Brute,
    Kimberly? Not you, too." I said, "You know I'm a Calvinist, a Calvinist
    of Calvinists, a Presbyterian, an anti-Catholic. I've given away dozens
    of copies of Boettner's book; I've gotten Catholics to leave. I was
    weaned on Martin Luther." She just stood there and she said, "Yeah, but
    sometimes I wonder if you're not Luther in reverse." Whoa, wait a minute
    here! I had nothing to say.

    I just slowly walked back in my study, shut the door, locked it,
    sank into my seat and really began to brood. I was scared. Luther in
    reverse. For me at one point that meant salvation in reverse. I was
    scared. Maybe I'm studying too much and praying too little, so I began
    to pray much more. I began to read more anti-Catholic books, but they
    just didn't make sense anymore. So I began to turn to Catholic sources
    and read them.

    ***Teacher at a Presbyterian Seminary***

    Meanwhile something dramatic occurred. I was approached by a
    seminary, a Presbyterian seminary, and asked if I would teach courses to
    the seminarians beginning with one Gospel of John seminar. I said,
    "Sure." So I began to share from the Gospel of John all about the
    covenant, about the family of God, about what it really means to be born
    again. I discovered in my study that being born again does not mean
    accepting Jesus Christ as personal Savior and Lord and asking Him into
    your heart -- although that is important and every believer, Catholic or
    otherwise, should have Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord and a living
    personal relationship with Him. But I discovered what Jesus meant in
    John 3 when He said that you've got to be born again. He turns around
    and says that you've got to be born of water and spirit. In the previous
    chapters He was just baptized with water and the Spirit descended upon
    Him. And as soon as He is done talking to Nicodemus about the need to be
    born from water and Spirit, the very next verse says that Jesus and the
    disciples went about baptizing. I taught that being born again is a
    covenant act, a sacrament, a covenant renewal involving baptism. I
    shared this with my seminary students; they were convinced.

    Meanwhile I was preparing my sermons and some lectures ahead of
    John chapter 3. I was delving into John chapter 6. I don't know how many
    of you've ever studied the Gospel of John. In many ways it's the richest
    Gospel of all. But John chapter 6 is my favorite chapter in the fourth
    Gospel. There I discovered something that I think I read before, but I
    never noticed. Listen to it. "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly I say to
    you, unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink His blood you
    have no life in you. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has
    eternal life and I will raise him up at the last day, for my flesh is
    food indeed and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and
    drinks my blood abides in me and I in him.'" I read that; I reread that;
    I looked at it from ten different angles. I bought all these books about
    it, commentaries on John. I couldn't understand how to make sense out of
    it.

    I had been trained to interpret that in a figurative sense;
    Jesus is using a symbol. Flesh and blood really is just a symbol of His
    body and blood. But the more I studied, the more I realized that that
    interpretation makes no sense at all. Why? Because as soon as all the
    Jews hear what Jesus says, they depart. Up until this point, thousands
    were following him, and then all of a sudden the multitudes just simply
    are shocked that He says, "My flesh is food indeed, my blood is drink
    indeed" and they all depart. Thousands of disciples leave Him. If Jesus
    had intended that language to only be figurative, He would have been
    morally obligated as a teacher to say, "Stop, I only mean it
    figuratively." But He doesn't do that; instead, what does he do?

    My research showed me that he turns to the twelve, and he says
    to them, what? "We better hire a public relations (P.R.) agent; I really
    blew it guys." No! He says, "Are you going to leave me too?" He doesn't
    say, "Do you understand I only meant it as a symbol?" No! He says that
    the truth is what sets us free, I have taught the truth. What are you
    going to do about it?

    Peter stands up and speaks out; he says, "To whom shall we go?
    You alone have the words of eternal life and we've come to believe."
    Peter's statement, "To whom shall we go?" implies that, "You know,
    Jesus, we don't understand what you mean either, but do you have another
    Rabbi on the scene you can recommend? You know, to whom shall we go?
    It's too late for us; we believe whatever you say even if we don't
    understand it fully, and if you say we have to eat your flesh and drink
    your blood, then somehow you'll give us the grace we need to accept your
    words at face value." He didn't mean it figuratively.

    As I began to study this, I began to realized it's one thing
    to convince Presbyterians that being born again means being baptized,
    but how in the world could I possibly convince them that we actually
    have to eat His flesh and drink His blood? I focused then a little bit
    more on the Lord's supper and communion. I discovered that Jesus had
    never used the word "covenant" in His public ministry. He saved the one
    time for when He instituted the Eucharist and he said, "This cup is the
    blood of the new covenant." If covenant means family, what is it that
    makes us family? Sharing flesh and blood. So if Christ forms a new
    covenant, that is a new family, what is He going to have to provide us
    with? New flesh and new blood. I began to see why in the early Church
    for over 700 years, nobody any place disputed the meaning of Jesus'
    words. All of the early Church fathers without exception took Jesus'
    words at face value and believed and taught the real presence of Christ
    in the Eucharist. I was scared; I didn't know who to turn to.

    Then all of a sudden an episode occurred one night in a seminar
    I wasn't ready for. An ex-Catholic graduate student named John raised
    his hand. He had just finished a presentation for the seminar on the
    Council of Trent. The Council of Trent, you'll recall, was the Church's
    official response to Martin Luther and the Reformation.

    In about an hour and a half he had presented the Council of Trent in the
    most favorable light. He had shown how many of their arguments were in
    fact based on the Bible. Then he turned the tables on me. The students
    were supposed to ask him a question or two. He said, "Can I first ask
    you a question, Professor Hahn? You know how Luther really had two
    slogans, not just sola fide, but the second slogan he used to revolt
    against Rome was sola Scriptura, the Bible alone. My question is, 'Where
    does the Bible teach that?'"

    I looked at him with a blank stare. I could feel sweat coming to
    my forehead. I used to take pride in asking my professors the most
    stumping questions, but I never heard this one before. And so I heard
    myself say words that I had sworn I'd never speak; I said, "John, what a
    dumb question." He was not intimidated. He look at me and said, "Give me
    a dumb answer." I said, "All right, I'll try." I just began to wing it.
    I said, "Well, Timothy 3:16 is the key: 'All Scripture is inspired of
    God and profitable for correction, for training and righteousness, for
    reproof that the man of God may be completely equipped for every good
    work....'" He said, "Wait a second, that only says that Scripture is
    inspired and profitable; it doesn't say ONLY Scripture is inspired or
    even better, only Scripture's profitable for those things. We need other
    things like prayer," and then he said, "What about 2 Thessalonians
    2:15?" I said, "What's that again?" He said, "Well, there Paul tells the
    Thessalonians that they have to hold fast, they have to cling to the
    traditions that Paul has taught them either in writing or by word of
    mouth." Whoa! I wasn't ready. I said, "Well, let's move on with the
    questions and answers; I'll deal with this next week. Let's go
    on."

    I don't think they realized the panic I was in. When I drove
    home that night, I was just staring up to the heavens asking God, why
    have I never heard that question? Why have I never found an answer? The
    next day I began calling up theologians around the country, former
    professors. I'd ask them, "Where does the Bible teach sola Scriptura?
    Where does the Bible teach us that the Bible is our only authority?" One
    man actually said to me, "What a dumb question coming from you." I said,
    "Give me a dumb answer then." I was catching on. One professor whom I
    greatly respect, an Oxford theologian, said to me, "Scott, you don't
    expect to find the Bible proving sola Scriptura because it isn't
    something the Bible demonstrates. It is our assumption; it is our
    presupposition when we approach the Bible." That struck me as odd; I
    said, "But professor, that seems strange because what we are saying then
    is that we should only believe what the Bible teaches, but the Bible
    doesn't teach us to only believe what the Bible teaches. Our assumption
    isn't taught by the Bible." I said, "That feels like we're cutting off
    the branch that we're sitting on." Then he said, "Well what other
    options do we have?" Good point, all right.

    Another friend, a theologian, called me and said, "Scott, what
    is this I'm hearing that you're considering the Catholic faith?" "Well,
    no, Art, I'm not really considering the Catholic faith." Then I decided
    to pose him a question. I said, "Art, what for you is the pillar and
    foundation of truth?" And he said, "Scott, for all of us Scripture is
    the pillar and foundation of truth." I said, "Then why, Art, does the
    Bible say in 1 Timothy 3:15 that the pillar and foundation of truth is
    the church, the household of faith?" There was a silence and he said,
    "Well, Scott, I think you're setting me up with that question then." And
    I said, "Art, I feel like I'm being set up with lots of problems." He
    said, "Well, which church, Scott? There are lots of them." I said, "Art,
    how many churches are even applying for the job of being the pillar and
    foundation of truth? I mean, if you talk about a church saying, 'We're
    the pillar and foundation of truth; look to us and you will hear Christ
    speak and teach'? How many applicants for the job are there? I only know
    of one. I only know that the Roman Catholic Church teaches that it was
    founded by Christ; it's been around for 2000 years and it's making some
    outlandish claims that seem awfully similar to 1 Timothy 3:15."

    Well, at this point I wasn't sure what to do. I got a phone
    call, though, one day from the chairman of the board of trustees at the
    seminar where I was teaching. Steve asked me out for lunch. I wasn't
    sure why. I thought, "Word has reached the chairman of the board that
    I'm teaching things that are perhaps somewhat Catholic." When I joined
    him for lunch, I was very scared and unsure. He proceeded to announce
    that the trustees had reached a unanimous decision. Because my classes
    were going so well, because so many people were signing up for my
    courses, they asked if I would consider becoming dean of the seminary at
    the ripe old age of 26. I couldn't believe it. He said, "We will let you
    teach the courses you want. We will let you hire faculty if you need
    them. We'll even pay for your doctoral program in theology." I said,
    "Where is there a doctoral program in theology nearby?" He said,
    "Catholic University." I thought, No, no, no. I don't want to study
    there; I'm fleeing that perspective at present." I really didn't say
    that to him because I didn't know what to say. In fact, he said, "Well,
    would you pray about it?" I said, "I will, but, Steve, I think I already
    know the answer. And oddly enough, I think I'm going to have to say no
    and I'm not going to be able to explain why because I'm not sure
    myself."

    When I got home, Kimberly was waiting for me. She said, "What
    did he want?" I said, "He asked me to become dean." "You're kidding!" I
    said, "No." "What did you say?" I said, "No." "I'm sorry, what did you
    say?" I said, "No." "Why did you say no?" I said, "Kimberly, because
    right now I'm not sure what I would teach. Right now I'm not sure what
    Scripture is teaching, and I know that someday I'm going to stand before
    Jesus Christ for judgment and it is not going to be enough for me simply
    to say, 'Well, Jesus, I just taught what I had been taught by my
    teachers.' He has shown me things from Scripture that are true and I
    have got to be faithful to what He has shown me." She walked right over
    to me, threw her arms around me and gave me a big hug. Then she said,
    "Scott, that's what I love about you, that's why I married you, but, oh,
    we're going to have to pray then." She knew what it meant: It meant not
    only turning down this offer; it also meant resigning from a booming job
    as pastor of a growing church. I loved both opportunities.

    ***Administrative Assistant to the College President***

    We didn't know what we were going to do. We were high and dry in
    July. After a lot of prayer, we decided we ought to move back to the
    college town where we met. When we moved back, I applied for a job at
    various places, but the college hired me as an administrator to be
    assistant to the president. For two years I worked there, and it was
    rather ideal because I worked during the day and it left me free in the
    evenings to pursue in-depth research. From around eight in the evening
    after putting our children down until around one or two in the morning,
    I would read and study and research.

    In two years time I had worked through several hundred books,
    and I began for the first time to read Catholic theologians and
    Scripture scholars. And I was shocked at how impressive their insights
    were but even more, at how impressive their insights were which agreed
    with my own personal discoveries. I couldn't believe how many novel,
    innovative discoveries that I had come up with they were assuming and
    taking for granted, and it bothered me.

    At times I'd come out and read sections to Kimberly and say,
    "Hear this, name the author." Because she was a theologian in a sense,
    and she was so busy with raising children that she really didn't have as
    much energy. But she would sit there listening in, and I would say, "Who
    do you think that was?" She said, "Wow! That sounds like one of your
    sermons down in Virginia. Oh, I miss those so much." I said, "That was
    Vatican II, Gaudium et Spes. That was the Catholic Church." She said,
    "Scott, I don't want to hear that." I said, "Kimberly, this stuff about
    liturgy is so exciting. I'm not certain, but I think God might be
    calling us to become Episcopalians." It's a halfway house. She looked at
    me and her eyes filled up with tears and she said, "Episcopalian!" She
    said, "I'm a Presbyterian, my father's a Presbyterian minister, my
    uncle's a Presbyterian minister, my husband was a Presbyterian minister,
    my brother wants to be one, and I thought about it myself. I don't want
    to be Episcopalian." She felt so abandoned at this moment, so betrayed.

    I remember that because a few months later after reading a lot
    more, one night I came out and said, "Kimberly, I'm not sure, but I'm
    beginning to think that God might be calling me to become a Roman
    Catholic." This look of desperation came over her. She said, "Couldn't
    we become Episcopalians? Anything but Catholic." You don't know what
    it's like, you cradle-Catholics. You just don't know the terror that
    comes over you when you think you might have to swim the Tiber, you
    might have to "Pope", as my friends put it. Well, she was getting so
    desperate. She began to pray for somebody to rescue her husband -- some
    professor, some theologian, some friend.

    ***Direct Journey to Catholicism***

    Finally it happened. I got a call one day from Gerry, my best
    friend from seminary. A Phi Beta Kappa scholar in classics and New
    Testament Greek. He was the only other student at seminary along with me
    who held to the old Protestant belief that the Pope was the anti-Christ.
    We stood shoulder to shoulder opposing all the compromises we saw in our
    Protestant brethren. He talked to me one night on the phone. I read to
    him a passage from a book by Father Bouyer. He said, "Wow, that is rich
    and profound. Who wrote it?" I said, "Louis Bouyer." "Bouyer? I'd never
    heard of him, what is he?" "I said, "What do you mean?" "Well, is he a
    Methodist?" I said, "No." "Is he a Baptist?" "No." "I mean is he
    Lutheran? What is this, twenty questions? What is he?" I said, "Well,
    he's a Cath-----." "I'm sorry I missed that." I said, "He's Roman
    Cath-----." "Wait a second, there must be a bad connection, Scott. I
    thought you said he's Catholic." I said, "Gerry, I did say he's Catholic
    and he is Catholic, and I've been reading lots of Catholics."

    All of a sudden it started gushing out like Niagara Falls. I
    said, "I've been reading Danielou, and Ratzinger and de Lubac and
    Garrigou-Lagrange and Congar, and all these guys and man is it rich;
    you've got to read them, too." He said, "Slow down." He said, "Scott,
    your soul may be in peril." I said, "Gerry, can I give you a list of
    titles?" He said, "Sure, I'll read them, anything to save you from this
    kind of trap. And I'll give you these titles." He mentioned to me about
    ten titles of anti- Catholic books. I said, "Gerry, I've read every
    single one of them, at least one or two times." He said, "Send me the
    list," and I sent it to him.

    About a month later, we arranged to have a long phone
    conversation. Kimberly couldn't have been more excited; at last a Phi
    Beta Kappa knight in shining armor coming to rescue her husband from the
    clutches of Romanism. So she was waiting with bated breath when the
    conversation was done, and I told her that Gerry's excited because he's
    reading all this stuff and he's really taking me seriously. She said,
    "Oh, great, I knew he would."

    Well, this went on for three or four months. We would talk on
    the phone, two, three, sometimes four hours long distance discussing
    theology and Scripture until three or four in the morning. Kimberly was
    so glad and grateful for him taking me so seriously.

    One night I came to bed around two or three; she was still up.
    The light was out, but she sat up in bed and said, "How's it going?" I
    said, "It's great." "Tell me about it." I said, "Gerry is almost
    intoxicated and excited about all the truth from Scripture that the
    Catholic Church puts forth." "WHAT!" I couldn't see her face, but I
    could almost feel it sink as she just slumped back down into bed, put
    her face into her pillow and began to sob. I couldn't even put my arm
    around her; she was just so wounded and abandoned.

    A little while later Gerry called and said, "Listen, I'm a
    little scared. My friends are a little scared. We ought to really take
    this seriously. I talked to Doctor John Gerstner, this Harvard-trained
    Presbyterian, anti-Catholic theologian . He will meet with us as long as
    we want." We arranged Gerry, Dr. Gerstner and me for a six hour session,
    going through the Old Testament in Hebrew, the New Testament in Greek,
    and the council documents of Church history. At the end of six hours,
    Gerry and I expected to be completely blown out of the water by this
    genius. Instead, what we discovered was that the Catholic Church almost
    doesn't even need a defense. It's more like a lion; just let it out of
    its cage and it takes care of itself. We just presented the Church's
    teachings and showed the text in Scripture, and we didn't feel like he
    had answered a single one of our questions or objections. In the end we
    were like, "Wow, what does this mean?" Neither of us knew. The most
    anti-Catholic seminarians wondering whether God might be a Catholic --
    we were terrified.

    Meanwhile, I sent an application off to Marquette University
    because I had heard they had a few really outstanding theologians who
    were based on the covenant who were studying the Church and doing lots
    of good things. Right before I heard back from them that I was accepted,
    and I got a scholarship, I began to visit a few priests in the area. I
    was scared. I'd do it at night so nobody would see me. I almost felt
    dirty and defiled stepping into the rectory. I'd sit down and finally
    get some questions out and, to a man, each priest would say to me,
    "Let's talk about something else besides theology." None of them wanted
    to discuss my questions. One of them actually said, "Are you thinking of
    converting? No, you don't want to do that. Ever since Vatican II we
    discourage that. The best thing you can do for the Church is just be a
    good Presbyterian minister." I said, "Wait a second, Father..." "No,
    just call me Mike." I said, "OK, Mike. I'm not asking you to break my
    arm and force me in. I think God is calling me." He said, "Well, if you
    want help from me, you've come to the wrong man."

    After three or four or five encounters like this, I was
    confused. I shared it with Kimberly. She said, "You've got to go to a
    Catholic school where you can study full time, where you can hear it
    from the horse's mouth, where you can make sure that the Catholic Church
    you believe in still exists." She had a good point. So after a lot of
    prayer and preparation, we moved to Milwaukee where I studied for two
    years full-time in their doctoral program.

    Those two years were the richest years of study I ever
    experienced and the richest time of prayer as well. I found myself in
    some seminars, though, where I was actually the lone Protestant
    defending the Church's teaching against the attacks coming from
    Catholics. It was weird. John Paul's teaching, for instance, which is so
    Scriptural and so "covenantal," I was explaining to these people. But
    there were a few good theologians who made so much sense out of it all.
    I really enjoyed the time. But something happened along the way,
    actually two things.

    First, I began to pray a rosary. I was very scared to do this. I
    asked the Lord not to be offended as I tried. I proceeded to pray, and
    as I prayed I felt more in my heart what I came to know in my mind: I am
    a child of God. I don't just have God as my Father and Christ as my
    brother; I have His Mother for my own.

    A friend of mine who had heard I was thinking about the Catholic
    Church called up one day and said: "Do you worship Mary like those
    Catholics do?" I said, "They don't worship Mary; they honor Mary."
    "Well, what's the difference?" I said, "Let me explain. When Christ
    accepted the call from His Father to become a man, He accepted the
    responsibility to obey the law, the moral law which is summarized in the
    Ten Commandments. There's a commandment which reads, 'Honor your father
    and mother.'" I said, "Chris, in the original Hebrew, that word "honor,"
    kaboda, that Hebrew word means to glorify, to bestow whatever glory and
    honor you have upon your father and mother. Christ fulfilled that law
    more perfectly than any human by bestowing His glory upon His heavenly
    Father and by taking His own divine glory and honoring His Mother with
    it. All we do in the rosary, Chris, is to imitate Christ who honors His
    Mother with His own glory. We honor her with Christ's glory."

    The second thing that happened was when I quietly slipped into
    the basement chapel down at Marquette, Gesu. They were having a noon
    Mass and I had never gone to Mass before. I slipped in. I sat down in
    the back pew. I didn't kneel. I didn't genuflect, I wouldn't stand. I
    was an observer; I was there to watch. But I was surprised when 40, 50,
    60, 80, or 100 ordinary folk just walked in off the street for midday
    Mass, ordinary folk who just came in, genuflected, knelt and prayed.
    Then a bell rang and they all stood up and Mass began. I had never seen
    it before.

    The Liturgy of the Word was so rich, not only the Scripture
    readings. They read more Scripture, I thought, in a weekday Mass than we
    read in a Sunday service. But their prayers were soaked with Biblical
    language and phrases from Isaiah and Ezekiel. I sat there saying, "Man,
    stop the show, let me explain your prayers. That's Zechariah; that's
    Ezekiel. Wow! It's like the Bible coming to life and dancing out on the
    center stage and saying, "This is where I belong."

    Then the Liturgy of the Eucharist began. I watched and listened
    as the priest pronounced the words of consecration and elevated the
    host. And I confess, the last drop of doubt drained away at that moment.
    I looked and said, "My Lord and my God." As the people began going
    forward to receive communion, I literally began to drool, "Lord, I want
    you. I want communion more fully with you. You've come into my heart.
    You're my personal Savior and Lord, but now I think You want to come
    onto my tongue and into my stomach, and into my body as well as my soul
    until this communion is complete."

    And as soon as it began, it was over. People stuck around for a
    minute or two for thanksgiving and then left. And eventually, I just
    walked out and wondered, what have I done? But the next day I was back,
    and the next, and the next. I couldn't tell a soul. I couldn't tell my
    wife. But in two or three weeks I was hooked. I was head over heels in
    love with Christ and His Real Presence in the Blessed Sacrament. It
    became the source and the summit and the climax of each day, and I still
    couldn't tell anybody.

    (snip)

    http://www.chnetwork.org/scotthconv.htm


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #16
77. Tinoire you always bring clarity to any issue, I swear!
I admire your faith. Perhaps mine has lapsed recently due to a bushbot priest in our parish. I seek and reach out for other Liberal voices in the Church.

I have no illusions as to a change in the Homosexual and Abortion issue. That would take a couple of more centuries if ever.

The Opus Dei connection with Ratzinger does bother me greatly. I hope his tenure has not a lot of impact on what I am now listening to in mass these days. :eyes:

I guess I am worried and need to do some more praying!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. Thanks Leftcfhick
That means a lot coming from you. It really does. I'll try to explain something I learned recently that has to do with Ratzinger. My parish priest, whom I deeply respect intellectually, was explaining to me that the Vatican knew WWII was coming (also remember all the apparitions such as Fatima and Lourdes) and elected Pius XII for his extraordinary diplomatic skills to try to protect the world from war. He told me to check out Ratzinger on ecumenical dialog which we both agreed is THE most imperative thing we need in this rotten time when pseudo-Christians, pseudo-Jews and pseudo-Muslims are trying to bring us a grand war of civilizations/faiths. That's made me look very differently at Ratzinger especially after reading a few posts by DemBonesDemBones about that very subject.

John Paul II trusted him. He's theologically sound. And better yet, the Holy Spirit trusts him.

Like you, I have no illusions about change on the Homosexual and Abortion issue; to expect any is to simply not understand the Church. I really need to pay more attention to this Opus Dei thing. I know there are a lot of bad men in the Church and I don't trust them but lol, I trust God. Paul VI fainted when he read the third secret of Fatima and knowing the nature of the first two, that really bothers me. These wars, the exploitation of the poor, the slaughter, the theft of people's dignity - those things scare me so much more than anything else.

Love you but have to run in mid-sentence. Thank you. People like you are treasures.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #78
82. More on OD....
Edited on Tue Apr-19-05 07:08 PM by leftchick
I have read on more than one occasion that Ratzinger has condoned Opus Dei and their bizarro beliefs. Here is an article on Ratzinger, I mean Pope Benedict from their website. I will see what else I can dig up.

http://www.opusdei.org/art.php?w=32&p=4761

on edit: an interesting repot from 2 years ago...

I saw Ratzinger recently at the presentation of a new book by author Giuseppe Romano, entitled Opus Dei: Il Messaggio, le Opere, le Persone (Opus Dei: The Message, The Works, The People, San Paolo, 2002). Ratzinger is a fan of the founder of Opus Dei, Spanish priest Josemaría Escrivá de Balaguer, set to be canonized Oct. 6. The book launch took place at the Augustinianum, just down the Via Paolo VI from the Holy Office, where Ratzinger works.

Ratzinger, who turns 75 on April 16, is weaker than when he took up his post 20 years ago. He has spoken wistfully about retiring to his home in Regensburg in Bavaria. In recent months he has turned over major chunks of responsibility to his lieutenant, Italian Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone. Yet he was in good form at the Opus Dei event, speaking without a prepared text in polished Italian.

The cardinal devoted the gist of his talk to his admiration for the implied significance of the phrase “Opus Dei,” which means “Work of God.” Escrivá, Ratzinger suggested, realized that he was not doing his own work, but God’s. His task was to be an instrument.

Ratzinger contrasted this attitude with what he called a “temptation of our time, also among Christians,” to believe that after the “Big Bang” God withdrew from the world and left things to function on their own. But God is not withdrawn, Ratzinger insisted. We simply have to learn to put ourselves at God’s disposition, and that is the “message of very great importance” which Ratzinger attributed to Escrivá.

http://www.nationalcatholicreporter.org/word/word0322.htm

When you get the chance please expound on Pope Paul VI readings of the Fatima secrets. It has always fascinated me but I was a child when that was going around and had totally forgotten it.

Love you much Tinoire! It has been a great relief to read your posts tonight.

peace,
lc
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #82
85. It would be interesting to discuss Opus Dei with you
because I confess I don't know a ton about it. MinstrelBoy seems to know them like the back of his hand lol.

I have to go home now but I'll PM you and maybe we can discuss Fatima in our group? Have you paid any attention to Medjugorje? I'm not sure what I think about it but I think JP II had fondness for it. Yes, let's discuss Fatima. It will be a welcome relief after these last dreadful few weeks! Will PM you later. This could be fun! Thanks :hug:

Pope Benedict... It sounds so strange. I still mourn for JP II- not for him I guess but for us. Pope Benedict has some aswfully big shoes to fill but then again, haven't they all? And none of them were perfect either... Peter denied Christ how many times? And doubted... Eventually ended up crucified asking to be crucified upside down because he wasn't worthy of being crucified the same way Jesus was.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
17. "Benedict the Enforcer"
This is a man whose primary purpose was to suppress and hound liberals and moderates in hte Church.

It's a lot like making Tom DeLay President.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
InvisibleTouch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
19. Raised in a Catholic family here...
...though I consider myself an atheist today. Still, it'll be interesting to hear what my still-nominal Catholic relatives think about this. None of them are super-strict in their adherrence, but most of them aren't very politically involved either. I suspect it may not make much difference to them one way or the other. I've never noticed that any of them felt any special personal reverence toward the Pope.

All I know about Ratz is what I'm reading here and in the given links. From all info (and judging by his pictures), he's someone very much not open to new ideas - a totalitarian, someone with a fixed veiw of the world, who feels justified in imposing it on everybody else. Somebody stuck firmly in the Dark Ages. Say what you will about JPII, but I can't imagine the new guy coming out with the acknowledgement that all world religions are a path to the same truth.

In response to the hopeful murmurs of "he's so old already, he won't last long" - I'd not be so sure of that. I think he'll surprise us.

Regarding the "Nazi" rumors, in all fairness - in those days you had to join the army, there wasn't any choice, whether you agreed with the ideology or not. Great numbers of ordinary Germans did not agree, and were personally devastated and horrified by a war they never chose. Being in the army, against their will, didn't make them Nazis. It sounds like this is the case here too. Criticize the guy for real faults, not fabricated ones.

As for the Malachy/Benedict stuff ... I suspect Ratz deliberately chose the name Benedict, thus fulfilling the "prophecy" in retrospect. The name Benedict, in and of itself, is cool IMO (aside from the "treason" connotations), but the selection hints at a manipulator who is willing to use both overt and subtle means to exercise his power.

Not an auspicious sign.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sandpiper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Ironically, his own rigid views condemn his "Nazi" activities
He was conscripted into the German Army, but by his own pronouncements, this was no excuse...

Christians have a "grave obligation of conscience not to cooperate formally in practices which, even if permitted by civil legislation, are contrary to God’s law. Indeed, from the moral standpoint, it is never licit to cooperate formally in evil. <...> This cooperation can never be justified either by invoking respect for the freedom of others or by appealing to the fact that civil law permits it or requires it" (no. 74)."


Maybe he'll soften his stance a bit on absolutism.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
21. Disappointed, sad, worried
But not terribly surprised ...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nancyharris Donating Member (637 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
25. There are no “DU Catholics”
It is virtually impossible to be a Catholic and a Liberal Democrat. The two ideologies conflict on so many levels. People here can believe whatever they want and can call themselves whatever they want but true Catholic doctrine and Liberal belief are at the opposite ends of the spectrum. True Catholic doctrine proscribes that homosexuality is a sin, abortion (even in the first trimester) is the taking of a human life and birth-control (including condoms) is forbidden. It would be rare to find someone with those beliefs that consider themselves a Liberal Democrat.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sandpiper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Pope Benedict!
Is that you?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. So is the guy in your avatar lying when he says he's a Catholic or lying
Edited on Tue Apr-19-05 01:56 PM by fishwax
when he says he's a liberal? :shrug:

on edit: or is he just wrong on one of those?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nancyharris Donating Member (637 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #31
40. As I said
People can call themselves whatever they want.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. Of course they can. And you can call them whatever you want
since you feel you know better how they might best define themselves. I do think it's a rather ironic position from someone with a DK avatar, but I guess I won't go so far as to say you can't be a DK supporter while simultaneously denying DK's assertions about who he is ...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
alcuno Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #25
33. I am SO tired of he "true" Catholic argument. I hear that from the
right wing of my faith all the time. Can't I say that I believe that homosexuality would be MY sin and abortion would be MY sin without deciding for you? Catholic teaching tells us that sin is in our own hearts. If you think it is, it is. If you think it's not, it's not.

There are a lot of Catholics who believe the Church teachings as they apply to themselves and aren't in to the branding of others.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mapatriot Donating Member (166 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #25
35. A DU catholic
Really Nancy??? I find strict catholicism and being a liberal democrat in perfect harmony. I oppose abortion,and I believe practicing homosexuality is a sin, and while I hate the sin, I can love the sinner. I'll never dictate to anyone how they should live their lives nor be judgemental. But for ME, abortion and homosexuality would be a sin.

Jesus taught that one of the two greatest commandments was to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. What could be more in concert with being a liberal democrat who abhors war, wants to protect our natural resources and believes we have an obligation to help, at all costs, the needy and the infirmed? And what could be more out of synch with the hateful fundies??
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nancyharris Donating Member (637 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. If
If you personally believe that abortion is a sin, and you are "opposed" to it and "hate" it, why do you vote for people that contend that it is not a sin but rather a fundamental human right?
If you believe homosexuality is a sin and are "opposed" to it and "hate" it, why do you vote for people that believe that it is not a sin but rather a fundamental human right?
I suggest that you are kidding yourself - one way or the other.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mapatriot Donating Member (166 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #39
45. My votes
You are confusing what politicians believe for themselves to be moral and ethical versus their obligation to preserve the rights of other-minded constituents. My senator, Pat Leahy and my choice for President, John Kerry, have both said that they oppose abortion for THEMSELVES on religious grounds but that they stand for the right of other Americans to be allowed to make their own decisions on such matters and not to be forced by the government to act one way or the other. Were I a legislator, I would vigorously support the right of a woman to chose and the right of a homosexual to practice any form of sexuality they wish. That's their civil right. Their moral practices are between themselves and God.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nancyharris Donating Member (637 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. Interesting rationalization
You have obviously not read JP II’s “Evangelium Vitae”, “Sollicitudo Rei Sociali”s, “Rerum Novarum” or “Fides et Ratio”.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mapatriot Donating Member (166 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #48
65. Rationalization
Actually, I read them as they were published and have no problem rationalizing my viewpoint with those expressed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #25
43. I disagree
Edited on Tue Apr-19-05 02:23 PM by Tinoire
and, as someone already pointed out, so does Kucinich.

It's really confusing to see what passes for Liberals these New Dem days you know. Is now all it takes to be a Liberal being pro-abortion, pro-birth control and pro-homosexuality?

Since when do more global issues such as war, exploitation, relativism no longer have anything to do with it? This is a sorry, sorry trend I've noticed at DU over the last year- an influx of people who think all it takes to be a Liberal is to be for those 3 issues.


There's a lot more to being a Liberal than those issues and certainly a lot more to being a Progressive.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #25
51. Bull. Plain and simple horse hockey.
I can separate my church from my politics. There's your answer, but I doubt you want to hear it anyway.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
screembloodymurder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #25
74. Thanks for narrowing down my political choices.
So how should Catholics vote?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nancyharris Donating Member (637 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #74
80. If they believe and follow the teachings of the Catholic Church
they will not be voting for liberal pro-choice, pro-gay Democrats.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #80
84. The teachings of the Catholic church don't prohibit voting for
pro-choice, pro-gay Democrats. (In fact, it was made a point during the last election that Catholics were allowed to vote for pro-choice candidates if that wasn't the reason they were voting for them.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mapatriot Donating Member (166 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
29. Reserve Judgement
I'll wait to see what he DOES as opposed to worrying what he MIGHT have SAID in the past. Many here at DU are sounding like the fundies as you take bits and pieces of his history out of context to make your points.

Whatever he dictates, in regard to faith and morals, I will follow. The path to salvation has many potholes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
scarlet_owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
32. I am disappointed, but my faith is deep.
I know he isn't a very tolerant guy (from what I have heard), but he deserves our respect as our Holy Father. I am willing to give him a chance.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LaPera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
37. Just another conservative white male, voted into a position of power.
Edited on Tue Apr-19-05 02:19 PM by LaPera
When the Pope is sitting on the toilet, or perhaps watching a game show or a football game on his TV set, or taking his vitamins & medicine to keep him healthy and alive...He's only a man, nothing more, simply elected, to wear some robes.

Maybe his administration might bring back eating only fish on Friday's.

Certainly won't stop all the child molestation, rampant in the Catholic Church.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
41. very disappointed
The worst-case scenario came true.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
patcox2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
42. I'd rather see a reformer, but he won't last and won't do much.
nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cidliz2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
47. Wasn't Bush also known as "the enforcer" during 41's campaign?
Too much of a coincidence to me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
50. I think he will moderate in office just as Paul VI did.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BigBearJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
53. I'm leaving the church as of today.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #53
61. The Catholic Church is a RW Corp. State.
I find it hypocritical that it espouses no divorce yet Catholics can get an annulment even after many years of being married if enough money and patience is applied to the Corp. This corps. stance on birth control is insane and destructive. Their laxness in the pedophilia within their ranks has been disgraceful. Someone said some DUers portrey "The sky is falling" attitudes within this thread. I didn't read any such exclamations. The Catholic Church is still the same Corp. that it was last week, a RW Corp. State that is in line with the Bush Junta with the exception of being anti-unjust wars and the death penality. As a political entity it is of concern to me because millions feel that they cannot drop out because of the guilt that this church instills in their members in doing so.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pockets Donating Member (388 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
60. My feelings
I would not expect a religion to be liberal, only government, so I'm not as disappointed as others.

I chose to not to be confirmed into Catholicism because there seemed to be so many insincere people involved in it. But I think it's good if Ratzinger can draw a well defined line between what is and isn't acceptable to the church.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
63. I am weeping. My heart is weeping. My soul is weeping.
Born into a Catholic family, baptized Catholic, I am now a ‘cafeteria Catholic’ at most, feeling that the RCC rejects & condemns people in a way that Jesus never would.

Through the years I have sporadically attended churches of various denominations, but typically pray in private...

"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Verily I say unto you, they have their reward.

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father who is in secret; and thy Father who seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

- Matthew 6:5-6


I was hoping that the Cardinals would select a pope who walked in the footsteps of Jesus... one who would be an advocate for “the least of these my brethren”. They chose Ratzinger... I can’t bring myself to call him ‘Pope’ at this time, don’t know if I ever will. Time will tell what he brings to the Papacy.

Right now, I am terribly, terribly saddened. Terribly saddened.

May God / Allah / Jehovah / YHWH / the Creator / Waheguru / the One have mercy on us.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
64. They need to keep those cardinals in session
This guy is so old he may serve only a short time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
_TJ_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
68. As a lapsed Catholic...
I say conservative popes suck! I ain't never coming back while
these creeps keep getting selected :D
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
69. "Meet the new Pope........same as the old Pope" eom
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
70. First of all,
I'm Catholic but not really religious, but my youngest son still goes to CCD on Sundays and I go to keep things happy at home. I also came from a pretty prominent Catholic family that helped bring the church to N.C.. I'm very disappointed. My father if he were still alive would have been greatly disappointed (he fought in Europe in WW II). It's not that I think he is an evil man but not what the Church needs right now. There couldn't have been a worse choice IMO. All sorts of crap is going to happen now, especially in the US where for alot of people here, religion is another way or purpose to hate someone (in Europe, they don't take religion quite as serious). The Church doesn't think enough of its membership to consider things like this, but seems more intent on doctrinal purity. Nothing I can do about it like nothing I can do about things the bush administration does except complain.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mcar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
76. Sad, but not surprised
I think the Church is going to move even further backwards.

I pray for a schism and the formation of a new Catholic church to compete with the old....

although maybe Martin Luther did that already? :shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
aneerkoinos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #76
79. Luther
I'm not a fan of that anti-semitist, and I'm not a fan of the doctrine "faith alone".

Schisma is coming from two directions, academic gnostic challenge (Nag Hammadi texts cannot be ignored ad infinitum even by Catholic theologians) and by social tensions against patriarchal dogma of Ratzinger & co. Gnostic academic feminism taking on the macho Bishop of Rome is what I predict.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #79
91. I think there's a schism coming too.
Will be very sad to see that day but I'm expecting it too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
deadparrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 06:34 PM
Response to Original message
81. I'm upset and angry.
Granted, I really don't consider myself Catholic anymore, but I was baptized and raised in the RCC for my entire life thus far.

I'm not surprised, just sad.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sonicx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
83. bump
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
86. well
:hurts:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tallahasseedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
87. Sick to my stomach..
In a way I hope that it is a wake up call to all of the moderate Catholics out there. The one thing we can do is speak with our wallets and non-attendance.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LTR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
88. Bad choice
I thought a pope from the 'developing world', such as Latin America, would be a much better choice. Heck, it would have been an excellent choice. One that would perhaps carry on JPII's legacy of promoting world peace and helping out the less fortunate.

Instead, they elected a fundie.

The Roman Catholic church could have created some much-needed positive P.R. by electing a guy capable of building on JPII's strengths, such as poverty, peace, and reaching out to other religions. Instead, they opted to go negative and alienate many Catholics worldwide.

What were these guys thinking?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
89. Still weeping...
Edited on Tue Apr-19-05 09:59 PM by Sapphire Blue
Excerpted from the National Catholic Reporter...

The Vatican’s enforcer

Others believe Ratzinger will be remembered as the architect of John Paul’s internal Kulturkampf, intimidating and punishing thinkers in order to restore a model of church -- clerical, dogmatic and rule-bound -- many hoped had been swept away by the Second Vatican Council, the 1962-65 assembly of bishops that sought to renew Catholicism and open it to the world. Ratzinger’s campaign bears comparison to the anti-modernist drive in the early part of the century or Pius XII’s crackdown in the 1950s, critics say, but is even more disheartening because it followed a moment of such optimism and new life.

At the most basic level, many Catholics cannot escape the sense that Ratzinger’s exercise of ecclesial power is not what Jesus had in mind.

Beneath the competing analyses and divergent views, this much is certain: Ratzinger has drawn lines in the sand and wielded the tools of his office on many who cross those lines. Whether necessary prophylaxis or a naked power play, his efforts to curb dissent have left the church more bruised, more divided, than at any point since the close of Vatican II.

<snip>

His record includes:

1) Theologians disciplined, such as Fr. Charles Curran, an American moral theologian who advocates a right to public dissent from official church teaching; Fr. Matthew Fox, an American known for his work on creation spirituality; Sr. Ivone Gebara, a Brazilian whose thinking blends liberation theology with environmental concerns; and Fr. Tissa Balasuriya, a Sri Lankan interested in how Christianity can be expressed through Eastern concepts;
2) Movements blocked, such as liberation theology and, more recently, religious pluralism (the drive to affirm other religions on their own terms);
3) Progressive bishops hobbled, including Archbishop Raymond Hunthausen of Seattle, reproached by Rome for his tolerance of ministry to homosexuals and his involvement in progressive political causes, and Bishop Dom Pedro Casaldáliga of Sao Félix, Brazil, criticized for his political engagement beyond the borders of his own diocese;
4) Episcopal conferences brought to heel on issues such as inclusive language and their own teaching authority;
5) The borders of infallibility expanded, to include such disparate points as the ban on women’s ordination and the invalidity of ordinations in the Anglican church.

http://www.natcath.com/NCR_Online/archives/041699/041699a.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From the Paulist Center...

Archbishop Hunthausen was the 1992 recipient of the Isaac Hecker Award for encouraging all who work within the Church to expand its commitment to justice and peace.

Archbishop Raymond Hunthausen of Seattle was recognized not only as an activist for peace and nuclear disarmament, but also for his respect for the rights of the poor, women, homosexuals, and other oppressed groups. His visionary leadership was rooted in the teachings of Vatican II and encouraged greater lay participation and leadership in the Church.

http://www.paulist.org/boston/information/hecker/awards.htm


Based on the persecution of Archbishop Hunthausen (my Archbishop at the time - when I still considered myself a Catholic) I look to this new Papacy with absolute dread. This is a sad & frightening day.

I am still weeping.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
92. The choice sends out a gigantic -the church doesn't care what you
think - type of message. If I were them I wouldn't be too sure because some churches have already gone bankrupt haven't they? The people are not going to tolerate any more of this nonsense!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mvd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
94. Personally, I'm not happy at all
Yes, I'm a non-practicing Catholic who likes to form some of my own views, but I feel I still qualify for this board. He makes me long for the days of Pope John Paul II, and that's saying something. I am afraid that he'll interfere more in the lives of regular Catholics, as he did in the Presidential election. The guy has even attacked rock music! I'm afraid that his rhetoric on social issues like gay marriage and abortion will be quite Bushian, while not spending as much time on the good things that Catholics stand for. If he's so doctrinal, you'd think this would carry over to things like the death penalty, but I don't know. I feel that he'll restrict free thought in the third world. I'm also alarmed at how he handled the pedophelia scandal (Malloy touched on that tonight.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-05 04:06 AM
Response to Original message
96. Matthew Fox chimes in
http://www.religiousconsultation.org/News_Tracker/some_reflections_on_the_recent_papacy.htm

Other attacks include documents against yoga (yes!); against Buddhism (calling it "atheism"); against Thich Naht Hahn (calling him the "anti-Christ"); against feminist philosophers; against women (girls cannot serve at the altar; nor can women be priests); against theologians in general. Priests are forbidden to use the pronoun "she" for God at the altar.

A prolonged effort to render fascism fashionable. This includes the rushing into canonization of the card-carrying fascist priest who founded the Opus Dei movement even though this man actually praised Adolf Hitler and also denounced women and has been accused of sexual abuse of six young men who are alive today.

The taking of Opus Dei under the hand of the papacy granting it legitimacy and power within and without the Catholic structure.

The conscious destruction and systemic dismantling of the Liberation Theology movement and the very vital base communities it spawned in Latin America in particular--a move which has opened up Latin America to an onslaught of Pentecostal and right wing religious huckstering. The demise of the Catholic Church in Latin America is now well underway--pentecostals are sweeping away the population--now that this papacy (with the encouragment and support of the CIA) has destroyed liberation theology and replaced it with opus dei bishops and cardinals.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sun May 05th 2024, 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC