I oppose third worlders flooding into the country to take jobs

[norml]

I oppose third worlders flooding into the country to take jobs. I see the solution in fining employers who hire third world labor, for every laborer they employ, for every day they employ them. If it gets too expensive for the employers, they will stop hiring third world labor, and if there are no jobs for them, that labor will stop coming. Exceptions can be made for seasonal migrant agricultural work, as exemptions are currently made for such work, from many labor laws. The right wing media drumming on about having a Maginot Line on the border, is just propaganda nonsense to distract anger from their trying to sell Dubya's "Guest Worker Program". Dubya's "Guest Worker Program" would bring even more third worlders into the country, to take even more jobs, and drive down even further wages, and working conditions. This could be a powerful issue to use against the opposition, if only we can direct more attention to what happens on the job site, rather than to what happens on the border. As long as jobs are offered, border defense will not keep out third worlders seeking those jobs.

[mark414]

1. there is actually evidence, with you know...facts, and statistics

that says the exact opposite of what you are saying

let me see if i can find it

and what's up with "third worlders???"

:wtf:

[norml]

4. Yes, you go find that.

Third worlders means those from the third world, mostly the desperately poor. This term is much broader than the terms currently being used, and would include those to be brought in under "Guest Worker", and so I use it.

[mark414]

5. this has some good basic info

and quit with the RW talking points will ya?

http://www.objectiveamerican.com/toa/getbest.cfm?id=1069

[norml]

13. Julian Simon? Senior Fellow at the CATO Institute Julian Simon?

Talk about your right wing talking points. These CATO bastards are the ones pushing this nonsense. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Simon

[QC]

33. Good catch! n/t

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[norml]

44. "xenophobic race baiting"? Nonsense!

Is that the best you can do? You know that's not what I'm talking about. Race doesn't enter into it in the least, at least not for me.

[UdoKier]

48. Using that terminology clearly brings race into it.

I can't count the times I've heard white people complain about "third worlders" in their towns, and they are ALWAYS talking about people of one shade of brown or another.

Use the word "illegal" and it's defensible (maybe unpopular here at DU, but defensible), but "third worlders" is not going to win you ANY friends.

[norml]

56. If I used the word "illegal" it wouldn't cover "Guest Workers".

That's why I use the term "Third Worlder", because it would cover those given some second class legal status under "Guest Worker".

[UdoKier]

60. Fine, then say "laborers from poor countries"

Third-worlder is tainted, whether you like it or not. It is used daily as an insult against brown people.


"Illegal" is more specific and not based on race.


BTW, I think the guest worker program is still just a (very bad) idea at this point.

[norml]

68. "Fine, then say "laborers from poor countries"" I wish I had. I will now.

Thanks for the suggestion. I will adjust my language accordingly. Let's see, Laborers From Poor Countries. I like it! I think I'll make it, "Laborers From Poorer Countries", because that's even more accurate, and descriptive. Sorry I didn't come up with it sooner.

[mark414]

53. how many white "third worlders" are there?

and where's your evidence?

and why was your ancestor's immigration okay but contemporary immigrants aren't?

[norml]

59. I don't know. How many non white first worlders are there?

I reject all attempts to make this a race thing. It may be for you, but it's not for me.

[mark414]

63. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3475233

[bvar22]

32. Third Worlders....

You mean people from Louisiana, Florida, and Ohio?

[UdoKier]

43. It's a putdown.

There is no reason to use it.

I despise PC, and have had people gripe at me for using the term "illegal"

But "third worlder" is too much. You are insulting the countries these people come from. The US is barely "First World" anymore, anyway...

[UdoKier]

7. I have to agree. I can handle "illegal" since they are in fact illegal

But "third worlder" is unnecessarily disparaging. I grew up around nothing but Mexicans in El Paso, many of them illegal. I worked with many of them in California. And despite being poor and brown, I was STUNNED by how much better educated a lot of these younger recent Mexican immigrants were than I or my white counterparts. They didn't take their education for granted as I had, because it is not a given in Mexico. They were also very politically astute.


If anyone is a "third worlder" it's the throngs of apathetic white suburbanites who sit idly as our country is being destroyed.


FWIW, I personally agree with tightening border enforcement and deporting illegals. But I vehemently reject race-baiting or blaming them for the forces that brought them here.

If rich WHITE assholes weren't knowingly hiring illegals to work for slave wages, there would be no problem.

[chomskyite_naderite]

17. Let me guess, you don't think they should be allowed to vote here

What a nice coincidence: the democratic and republican establishment both think that illegal immigrants (and legal immigrants) should not be allowed to vote, and that illegal immigration is a crime, but they do not take the measures to stop it. And the democratic party core voters demonize anyone who wants to really do something, whatever they can, about ilegal immigration. So, what happens is that the status quo is enforced. And guess who profits through that? The corporations, and the upper class. And also the white collars types who happen to make up the core voters of the Democratic party. The illegal immigration that depresses wages only affects those lowly blue collar workers, and hey, they are "repugs" and "racists", right?

he dyanmics are set in place by those at the top, to first create the situation, and then enforce the status quo. Hey, it only hurts the blue collar workers, and who cares about them?

[UdoKier]

21. So it's my fault?

My wife went through the legal process to immigrate to this country. It tool a lot of time, effort and money. I did the same when I live in Japan.

It is not fair to the the people who do it the hard way to let people come in unimpeded.

Enforce the border. End of problem. I agree that both parties have a tacit agreement to do nothing. But I'm not "demonizing" anyone. And giving these NON-CITIZENS the vote would solve nothing. Most Mexicans I knew in El Paso were in favor of stricter border enforcement. The La Raza/Aztlan types are a small minority.

[chomskyite_naderite]

22. taxation without representation

it's ok for them to clean off your table, and mow your lawn, and they can pay taxes for the food they eat, etc., but they don't get any political representation for those taxes they pay.

Cool! Neoslavery!

[UdoKier]

29. I don't expect them to pay taxes, either.

I expect them to be deported. I did not invite them here. They don't mow my lawn. If it means higher prices, I'm happy to pay them if it means that the people doing those jobs are LEGAL and receiving at least the minimum wage.

Illegals are often paid under the table, meaning there is no withholding, no taxes being paid. Having Americans do these jobs would not only boost overall wages, the extra revenues would help with the deficit. And if Americans "don't want to do those jobs" at the pittance that's being offered, these companies will have to raise the pay to what the market will bear. THAT is capitalism.

You are the one advocating an open border, and thus advocating slavery.

[SlowDownFast]

30. that's the price you pay for entering illegally.

"it's ok for them to clean off your table, and mow your lawn, and they can pay taxes for the food they eat, etc., but they don't get any political representation for those taxes they pay."

[SlowDownFast]

26. precisely.

"My wife went through the legal process to immigrate to this country. It tool a lot of time, effort and money. I did the same when I live in Japan.

It is not fair to the the people who do it the hard way to let people come in unimpeded."

Excellent example.

[proud2BlibKansan]

61. And how do you propose we enforce the border?

A giant chain link electrified fence?

Armed guards?

[norml]

78. Enforcing the border isn't the End of problem. That's my whole point.

As long as jobs are offered, workers from poorer countries will find a way to get in to take those jobs. Take those job offers away, and not only will they have little motivation to come, they will go back on their own. An enforced border with "Guest Worker" would just have the Border Patrol handing out slips of paper, and waving the "Guest Workers" through.

[Itsthetruth]

2. Scapegoating Example

So did these "foreign" workers "steal" your job? Perhaps you should pay more attention to the corporate thieves who have and are destroying millions of good paying jobs by outsourcing, downsizing, cutting pay, etc., Afraid of them?

I guess it's much easier for you to pick on and scapegoat undocumented workers for the economic crisis rather than take on the rich and powerful.

[norml]

9. Yes, they are in fact stealing jobs from me.

Jobs here in Lincoln Nebraska. Jobs that I've done myself. Jobs that don't pay as much as they used to. Jobs that aren't offered in the paper anymore. Jobs where they know they can treat their employees badly, because they know they can replace them in a moment, with a flood of third world labor pouring into the country. Almost all the jobs that can be outsourced, have been outsourced. The only jobs left are the ones that can't be moved to a third world country, so they bring the third world here. Opposing the employment of third worlders by employers here is taking on the rich and powerful, because that is a big part of their agenda.

[Book Lover]

15. You are angry at the wrong people

So you are saying that if you go to the places where these people are being hired, and you try to get a job, you will not be hired because you were born here, right? If so, why is your complaint not with the employers? The "illegals" aren't taking something away from you; the employers aren't offering it to you anymore. Be pissed at the people running the show.

[norml]

34. I'm saying, for example, meatpacking used to be a good job in Nebraska.

And though I can still go to a packing plant, and get hired, it pays less than half of what it paid in the 70s. Also I think they'd rather have people who won't report health and safety violations. You get that, if you hire people, here illegally or here under some guest worker program, who don't dare complain.

[SlowDownFast]

10. it's both actually...

"So did these "foreign" workers "steal" your job? Perhaps you should pay more attention to the corporate thieves who have and are destroying millions of good paying jobs by outsourcing, downsizing, cutting pay, etc., Afraid of them?"

I am a carpenter who has had illegals from Mexico underbid me on several jobs before. I just can't compete with their cheap labor and still make any profit. Plenty of carpenters I know have had the same thing happen, including a Mexican-born carpenter friend of mine who is a legitimate US citizen. I can't blame illegal immigrants for wanting a better life, but illegal immigration has to be stopped - at the borders.

The 'corporate thieves' and politicians are the problem, also. They advocate illegal immigration and Bush's amnesty program in order to keep the supply of illegal cheap labor flowing.

There are some I see who constantly defend illegal immigration for one reason or another (like "Someone's got to pick the fruit, caretake the garden, pluck the chickens at the factories, etc), but that is ridiculous considering the employment and homeless rates in this country. If those employers would would quit exploiting illegal labor and perhaps pay DECENT wages along with the US starting new programs to help the homeless and unemployed unskilled laborors (which there are plenty) fill these so-called "unwanted" jobs, the unemployment margin could be reduced drastically.

Take care of US citizens FIRST, then bring in the immigrants and "guest workers".

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

3. Or, you could build solidarity with the migrants to raise wages for all.

Like the unions did at the turn of the last century.

[Cleita]

11. Exactly.

If labor doesn't unite in a common cause, worker abuses will continue across the board.

[Melynn]

28. But if labor in this country unites all the workers in a common cause

in this country the corporations will move the jobs overseas where wages are lower. We wouldn't want that to happen, would we?

No, wait a second. That's already happening...........never mind.

[Cleita]

40. They can't move all the jobs, no matter how hard they try.

Time for those workers whose jobs can't go overseas to unite, like whose gonna clean all those hotel rooms in Pismo Beach if the hotel maids are in Calcutta?

Maybe these large corporations moving jobs overseas might have a silver lining. Maybe new companies can step into the void and hire the unemployed workers right here to compete with those companies.

Maybe then we can revoke their licenses to do business in this country if they don't hire 60% of their employees right here in the USA. If they are a retail monster, like Wal-Mart, revoke their license to do business in the USA if 60% of the goods on their shelves aren't manufactured here in the USA.

Who is going to step up to the plate and demand the laws be changed? A united front of unionized workers, that's who.

[Melynn]

62. They can't move all of the jobs but they sure would like to.

Those are all good ideas that you have. I would like to see them enacted.

With this new bankruptcy bill, the American worker will be squeezed like they have never had been before. Unions will have a good opportunity to make inroads into organizing the working class.

[chomskyite_naderite]

19. legal and illegal immigrants are not allowed to vote

taxation without representation. And if they are legal, it takes years and 1000s of dollars to get to be able to vote (neo-poll tax).

No big surprise that the Demcratic party core voters support the status quo: no voting for those who work here (they vote for leftists! ewww!), and demonize those activists who would do the only thing that they can do stop the immigration and bring up wages for blue collar workers.

Whole lotta hypocrisy going around. What a surprise!

[nonconformist]

6. You lost me at "third worlders" nt

[Cleita]

8. Would "first worlders" be more acceptable or, is

it any immigrant that you object to? I agree with you about Bush's plan but not because I don't think we need some sort of guest worker program, but because it's Bush's plan and there is a huge $tring attached to it somewhere like all of Bush's plans.

I am presently unraveling the $trings to Bush's Medicare Prescription plan. Ouch it hurts!

:hurts:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

12. Austrian body builders are acceptable.

They offer so much to a society in need of poster boys for steroids. Or, Croatians who can shoot baskets. Or, millionaire businessmen. They give so much to the working poor and don't steal bedpan washing jobs from needy 'murkans.

[Cleita]

14. Speaking of Ahssnold. He entered this country on

a temporary visa and then stayed here illegally after it expired. And, now the same people who want guns at the Mexican border, are trying to get an ammendment passed to make him President.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[norml]

20. I am underwhelmed by your personal attack.

And not scared or deterred from my argument in the least.

[SlowDownFast]

47. you might have better used "illegal immigrants"

instead of "third worlders".

[KlatooBNikto]

52. So why call them Third Worlders ?You were able to identify them as

as Third Worlders only by the color of their skins anyway? Why not just say I don't like these brown skinned people from poor countries taking my jobs? In the city I live in there are many Bosnians, Russians and other Eastern Europeans who may or may not be here legally and no one even pauses to give them a thought.

The ability to segregate people by distinguishing features have been a trademark of xenophobes and racists for a long time.And how do you know that they are flooding our country and not the white skinned nationalities I have listed?When I see a euphemism used instead of a forthright admission that this is what bothers you, I think we need to call it by its ugly name.

[norml]

87. Yes, well I've now decided to use the term "Workers From Poorer Countries"

So as to avoid any further confusion.

[norml]

18. Bush's Guest Worker Program would create a second class slave status

within our society, worse than the current status of those here illegally. What first worlder would come here for that? Things are better where they are. The rest of the first world is leaving us behind, as we sink into third world status.

[Itsthetruth]

25. Don't Fall For Racist Scapegoating

Workers immigration is a class issue. It is an issue that should unite, not divide working people. Working class people who happen to be citizens have absolutely no self-interest in bashing immigrant workers, with or without papers. Politically astute workers understand how anti-labor elements and corporate interests want to scapegoat so-called "illegal" workers and blame them for the developing economic crisis. Our enemies want to divide us along race, sex, religious and citizen/non-citizen lines.

One "problem" with undocumented workers is figuring out how can we help organize them to fight against our common enemy. And another problem is explaining to otherwise "liberal" and "progressive" people why they should not support reactionary and racist right-wing outfits like the Minuteman which seek to divide working class people by using immigrants as scapegoats.

The discussions we've had here on the Minuteman outfit demonstrate how people who started out as progressives can wind up embracing right-wing positions under difficult economic conditions. The Nazi and fascist movements in Germany, Italy and Spain had a significant number of confused and easily brainwashed ex-radicals and socialists in their ranks. So if you consider yourself progressive, don't be fooled by racist hate outfits like the Minuteman group and their divisive propaganda.

[laura888]

31. sorry - the idea of trying to organize workers who are basically...

...in hiding because they're breaking the law is unrealistic.

[norml]

41. Who's fooled by the Minuteman? I said in my OP what nonsense that is.

All the right wing media's nonsense about "getting tough on the border" is just nonsense, and an effort to divert attention away from the workplace, where they want as many (insert your own language) workers as they can get.

[KlatooBNikto]

27. Wrong.Many well qualified people from India, Phillippines and other

countries are also seeking employment in Germany,Sweden,Japan,UK and other first world countries.If our corporations do not hire them under the guest worker program their competitiveness in world markets will be affected.Let us face it, our standard of living has become our Achilles' heel.If we continue along the lines you advocate, it won't be long before many of our corporations will be reduced to the status of GM fighting for its very survival after many years of bloated living.

[QC]

45. "competitiveness in world markets"

Yep, it's the fault of those greedy American workers that their jobs are being outsourced and the poor, suffering executives are driving their companies into the ground. If only they could be contented to crowd ten into a two-bedroom apartment and live off beans and rice--then we could be "competitive." :eyes:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

36. We're sinking into 3rd world status because of corporate greed.

Not because economic refugees from Latin America are coming here to escape that very greed that has impoverished their own countries.

Instead of blaming the victims, we should find common cause with them. It's a "Catch-22" situation for all concerned. Our corporations rip off 3rd world countries of their resources, employ the poorest people in them at starvation wages to make goods cheaply to sell to the gullible consumers here, who in turn finance the corporatations to move on to the next country, forcing the desperate remnants of their predatory greed to come here for the most menial of jobs.

Instead of complaining about the immigrants you should be screaming at the corporations and praising the likes of Hugo Chavez, and Lula, who are trying to curb the rapacious corporations protected by our military and "intelligence" agencies.

[laura888]

23. OK - I'm going to come out in full support of your statement

By "third worlders" you are NOT stating a race but an economic condition from where these people originate. I fail to see any racism here.

Also, from your statement, you are really penalizing employers, and not illegals. I agree wholeheartedly - employers who hire an illegal for $6.50/hour instead of a citizen for $15/hour are committing a crime. Just by hiring LEGAL immigrants, the employer would be forced by law to hire at reasonable wages with certain benefits and rights.

Hiring illegals has GOT to stop.

[LynneSin]

24. Don't worry, our jobs are just being sent to third world countries

Makes it easier don't you think

:eyes:

[B Calm]

35. Cheap Labor Cons need to be forced to pay higher wages!

[BigTentDemocrat]

38. I strongly disagree

Inside the heart of any good Democrat is the desire to see people everywhere raised up out of poverty, and given the chance to have a better life, so long as they work hard and contribute to the common good.

No one on this board can look in the mirror and call themselves a Democrat, if this is not in their heart.

Immigrants often perform jobs that others in this country decline. All they want is a better life, for themselves and their kids. Perhaps those who object to their desire to improve their life would re-consider, if born into poverty in another nation.

I sense a continuing effort to divide the Democratic Party, instead of solidifying it. We need everyone, and probably 10,000,000 extra, if we are going to take back our nation from the evil that now controls it.

[UdoKier]

39. Why don't you at least change the "third worlder" wording?

Is it necessary to make your point in such an ugly way?

Or do you really hold people from poor countries in such disdain?

[norml]

51. I can see an effort getting started here to have this thread locked

for the use of a term, which is accurate, not based on race, and is in no way ugly. I take it as a sign of the weakness of your arguments, and a reluctance on your part to address my idea of fining the employers. I'm not saying this to you individually, but to many those here.

[UdoKier]

54. It is ugly, and I'm no PC'er

You're sabotaging your own argument with mean-spirited language

But hey, it's your thread. Knock yourself out.

[norml]

71. OK, I'm changing my language to "Laborers From Poorer Countries".

norml (1000+ posts) Sat Apr-16-05 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #60

68. "Fine, then say "laborers from poor countries"" I wish I had. I will now.


Thanks for the suggestion. I will adjust my language accordingly. Let's see, Laborers From Poor Countries. I like it! I think I'll make it, "Laborers From Poorer Countries", because that's even more accurate, and descriptive. Sorry I didn't come up with it sooner.

From now on, all of my arguments will be based on definitions that are not in any dictionary: Dogbert

[KlatooBNikto]

42. Let me remind you that John Chambers, CEO of Cisco recently stated that

he thinks Cisco should be regarded as an Indian or a Chinese corporation and not as an American corporation.That seems to be the thinking of Microsoft, Intel, TI and other high technology corporations and also many drug and pharmaceutical firms. What this tells me is that many jobs will go to these overseas locations sooner or later chasing the qualified labor and other incentives.

With the enormous increase in the mobility of labor and capital in the world any attempt to put a dam across borders will blow up in our face.And if you want to insist that you should be paid $40 an hour when an Indian worker wants less than $5 a day for the same work, you may find very few takers.

[Deja Q]

46. Or even $20/hr...

Not just that, but some IT companies have given training to those countries and not merely chasing them.

They can afford to while keeping their multi-million executive pay.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Misunderestimator]

50. Yep... we don't need no third-worlders here.

:sarcasm:

(Good post! :thumbsup:)

[mark414]

57. well said

not to mention that we killed a whole bunch of brown people to begin with so we could have these jobs in the first place!

of course the massive european immigration wave 100 years ago was okay, but god forbid we dilute the great whiteness of america by lettin "them third world illegals" in

[laura888]

58. So...if we open the borders to anyone who wants to come...

...there may be 300 people qualified to take your job who are willing to work for 20% of what you make. They also won't ask for health insurance or benefits of any kind.

The employer realizes that by firing you and hiring them, the company will have a huge cost savings. Also, if the worker is illegal, the worker will have no legal rights if the company screws him/her in some way.

Out the door you go.

Is this okay with you?

[cleofus1]

64. you don't know me

so don't make such assumptions that will only make you look stupid...

your arguments are the same old crap that i have heard all my life...and i am a pretty old sun of a bitch....

so when is the idyll white world going to end?

when will we all lose our jobs and have to go live in a an old box in an alley with our starving children?

becouse those damn brown people are now working and earning a living...

[laura888]

65. No. It's not a leap to assume...

...that illegals will ask for a fraction of what citizens will ask for.

Is it?

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[laura888]

67. didn't answer my question

let's not get hysterial, please.

[cleofus1]

70. i'm waiting....

have we been over run yet?

i hope idon't lose myjob to adamn mexican...

oh wait...i am a damn mexican!

[laura888]

72. still didn't answer my question n/t

[cleofus1]

73. if they can find another mexican

to do this job at a fraction of the cost to the company...then i would lose all respect for this company if they did not hire him/her on the spot...and fire lazy brown ass

you should feel the same way...

[laura888]

74. hmmm.... where did "lazy" come into the conversation?

It's possible that the citizen is a fine, loyal worker, with 3 kids and a mortgage. And of Mexican descent.

Still ok?

[cleofus1]

76. soooo miss

you can't see my points...please address them....i addressed yours now you addess mine....

[laura888]

79. you still did not address my points

...please stop turning a labor issue into a race issue.

[Octafish]

55. Stop blaming the poor for what the rich have done.

Gee. All the jobs in manufacturing disappeared because the corporations moved operations offshore? Blame the poor.

Gee. All the jobs in farming disappeared because the megafarms are owned by corporations? Blame the poor.

Gee. All the jobs in high tech disappeared because the corporations can get programmers at one-tenth the pay in Bangladore? Blame the poor.

Makes perfect sense to Karl Rove.

[KG]

69. lost your job picking stoop crops?

didnt think so.

[norml]

75. We have combines for that here. It's the meat packing plant

that I no longer work at. Know your regions, and don't assume. Where you live, it may be the hospitality industry. There are many workers here in Nebraska who wish that meatpacking was still a good job. By the way, did you even read my original post? I mention exemptions for seasonal agricultural migrant workers.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cleofus1]

82. and people with no teeth are picking your fruit

cry me a river

[norml]

83. Oh, and by the way, I got an education.

It put me further in debt, and didn't get me anything but low paying jobs. Do you suppose I should go back for an advanced degree? With the current cost of tuition, that should put me even further in debt. For me it's the cost that keeps me from going back. What about the people who aren't so smart, or good at school? I guess they just deserve their fate. Yes, I think there may be a class divide, on this, on DU.

[cleofus1]

84. everyone has problems

but you are blaming outside forces for the problems in your life...
a immigrant earning a living is not your enemy...

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cleita]

85. Take it to Ask the Administrators.

I didn't see anything wrong with your post. I think this whole thread should be locked for flamebait.

[cleofus1]

86. i did...

what's the fucking point...

these people will couch their prejudices and their fears in whatever argument works...i'll never change their minds...if i'm even allowed to speak.

[Moderator]

88. Locking

Two points here.

The topic is an understandably contentious one with many differing opinions. This thread, though, has devolved into a series of personal attacks.

Questions about the administration of DU are best addressed in the Ask the Administrators forum.

Thanks for your consideration.
DU Mod