Is there obvious classism on DU?

[solinvictus]

Yes, no, or explain if you choose "other" or "maybe". I ask because it seems to have erupted with the illegal immigration issue as many people don't view it as an economic concern.

[queeg]

1. Yeah, you low class boob

I am the Liberal "Elite"---now go mow the yard......

[MrModerate]

2. MAYBE: I like the people I debate with to have a little class . . .

But it doesn't always turn out that way.

No, seriously, please explain "classism" and "illegal immigration," two terms I haven't heard in the same sentence until just now.

[Toucano]

8. Ditto. n/t

[solinvictus]

17. Classism and illegal immigration...

I've seen many here associate the wish to stop illegal immigration with knee-jerk racism while refusing to associate the issue with depressed blue collar wages. I've never suggested that the employers of illegal immigrants should go free: if I had my way they'd pay fines equal to about 10% of their company's net value. It is simply my perception that many either don't make the association or simply don't care that illegal labor depresses blue collar wages.

I hate to say it, but it's almost as if there's a divide in the Democratic Party between the upper middle class and the blue collar workers. The former seems primarily concerned with issues such as gay marriage, the environment, and such while the latter is concerned with earning enough to pay rent and buy food.

To give you an example, yesterday SoCalDem started this excellent thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3484246&mesg_id=3484246
Now, it has 48 votes for "Greatest" but what's on our front page? Delay, Frist, a poll about Bush's unsexiness and Hannity. In my view, that speaks volumes to the concern at DU for economic issues, especially issues that concern the most vulnerable of us: the working poor.

I've been guilty of classism myself, I won't deny that. I've often referred to many liberals as "Starbucks liberals" or "latte-sipping, Volvo driving, ivory-towerists". I understand that it's wrong, but at times the attitudes displayed here toward the blue, gray, and lower wage white collar workers leads me to believe that we need a true worker's party in America on the style of the old British Labor Party. I just don't believe the Democrats are doing the job of representing workers.

[QC]

18. Well said. Class is just not on the radar for many on the Left

in this country, and that is reflected at DU. Good threads on the subject tend to drop like rocks, while threads on, say, the possibility of cat-hunting in Wisconsin draw hundreds of responses. Very few people here seem much aware that working-class Americans are being ground into the dirt, and many of those who are aware of it seem to think that it's what they deserve, since "they all voted for Bush" (which is simply not true--voters making under $50k were the only income demographic Kerry won.)

The divide you talk about has been around for a while--it goes back to the 60's. Patching it up is the key for us becoming the majority party again, but I see very little interest here in repairing that coalition. Frankly, I think many so-called liberals and progressives believe that blue-collar people are just icky.

[solinvictus]

19. I agree..

Any thread that keeps harping on Tom DeLay makes the front page, even though it's likely a dead horse since his own party's turning on him and has called for him to resign. Some of the opinions I've read here seem to favor cheap illegal labor. One response on a thread was "do you want to pay more for produce/landscaping/construction work", meaning that they held an opinion no different from the cheap labor conservatives in power. Blue collar Americans are being driven under and something has to give in the Democratic Party or we're going to be losers forever.

[QC]

20. Yeah, I love the line about "produce and wine would cost so much!"

These people are saying, though they're too self-absorbed to see the irony of it, that it's perfectly OK to keep an entire class of people in a state little better than slavery and drive down another class of people's wages to the point that they can no longer provide for their families, if it keeps chardonnay, arugula, and McMansions cheap.

[solinvictus]

24. LOL!

Exactly! The type of "liberals" who use such justifications should be called Plum Democrats: blue on the outside, red on the inside. Here in Birmingham, it's always Mexican or South American crews building these McMansions in the suburbs.

[ebayfool]

27. I see it on DU, & it often makes me hesitant to even post on some ...

threads. What's even stranger to me, as one of those blue-collar types, ALL the rich, hoity-toity people that I know & work for are big time repubs! At first I thought maybe it was just a local thing, since I live in a 'red' chunk of CA. But I'm not so sure that it is any different for the repubs. I suspect it is separate from a political viewpoint & is just pure, unadulterated classism - easily demonstrated by either political party. There does, however, seem to be an oft repeated idea that it was the 'lower class' people that cost the dems the elections in November. I don't see it, & I feel just a bit offended when I hear it. I know more armchair warriors that talk a good fight, but since they have less to lose (more buffers) they also have less urgency to fight for change. I keep hearing @ how the ignorant, poor folk vote against their own interests, but I SEE the so called educated, high classes voting with what they perceive to be their best interests - gop. Anyone that speaks @ gas prices, low wages, or illegal immigration policies competing for the bottom rung jobs available to them are very likely to be told to develop some job skills, go to school, any number of repub-like responses basically telling them to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. Not always, but quite often - often enough to let you know that you're not quite sitting at the big table.

Just my opinion, I'm sure there are many perfectly willing to tell me why I'm wrong & how I really feel!

[solinvictus]

29. I've seen it here..

People have parroted Rush Limbaugh's "low skills" line regarding the jobs illegals take. The last time I checked, home construction required skills. It's still demeaning as many Americans now need those jobs, but they need them to pay enough to earn a living.

[Just Me]

71. OMG! As a "barely above poverty" DU member, I can't believe,...

,..what I am reading!!!

WOW!!!

There is no way I could possibly characterize DU as presenting an "obvious classism". NO FREAKIN' WAY!!!

Are there a few "classists"? Surely. But, a few hardly characterizes the whole of DU.

I am, frankly, shocked that there are so many who consider this forum, as a whole, to be guilty of "classism".

I just,...can't believe it!!!

[ebayfool]

99. Okay, but as a "largely below poverty" DU member, I can believe..."

what I'm reading. I haven't seen where you've read that anyone has 'characterized the whole of DU' as displaying "classism". I specifically said :

"Not always, but quite often - often enough to let you know that you're not quite sitting at the big table."

I'm sure that your experience is valid, as is every other DUers' that has spoken in this thread. But, my experience was made w/no blanket statement about 'the whole of DU'. Most of the time, DUers are exemplary ambassadors for our party's 'big tent' principles. As I said before - I do see classism here ... not always, but quite often.

I'm being as open & honest here as I can be - your shock is as surprising to me as apparently mine is to you. Sorry.

[mmmbeer]

42. "voters making under $50k were the only income demographic kerry won"

I really think some Democrats would benefit from having that tattoed in flourescent ink onto the inside of their eyelids. Working people are the backbone of the Democratic Party, and frankly by and large they do a lot more for it than it does for them. When I hear supposed liberals degrading working people and seeking to marginalise their concerns, I have to ask myself what their core values, deep down, really are- because I don't see how they can be the same as mine.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

46. Are you saying that all of us who oppose illegal immigration

at the level we are experiencing, are doing so for racist or classist reasons? Because if you are, that is an unfair and incorrect cheap shot, which I, for one, am sick of hearing.

[solinvictus]

47. Not at all..

I'm saying that those in favor of illegal immigration are either willfully ignorant or indifferent to the fact that illegals depress wages and put American workers out of jobs.

[EFerrari]

66. I guess my take is more complicated than that.

For one thing, you're not going to stop illegal immigration from Mexico. That's just reality. My people have been living in this area for thousands of years and they're not going away.

Two, even if you did, the jobs would just go across the border, off shore or overseas.

Three, imho, there is a LOT of anger being directed at people who are simply trying to feed their families.

The smart labor move would be to TEAM UP with undocumented workers and make common cause. There's no way MendacityCentral could deal with that. I mean, really. Think about it. A coalition like that would have clout.

As long are we're so shortsighted, labor will make no gains in this country.

So, you see, it is possible to appreciate the economic situation AND disagree with most solutions proposed here about undocumented workers. In fact, those solutions will not work, put us in a no-win situation and will not get labor what it wants: decent jobs.

B.

[countryjake]

83. Good post!

Your first paragraph reminded me of a t-shirt a friend of mine likes to wear...when she's feeling brave. It says, "Who are the REAL immigrants?"

[EFerrari]

109. She must be on a list.

And, brava to her! I want one of those shirts! I'm already on lists and don't want to bore Agent Mike.

B.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

81. Emily Latella here.......

Oh.....never mind. I guess my knee-jerk defensiveness over my stance on this issue blinded me to the point of your post, for which I apologize. I see we are on the same page, and you said it beter than I could have.

[Darranar]

88. And those against immigration...

tend to miss the fact that they are dividing the global work force, and that by doing so they are simply empowering the multinational corporate power centers that comprise the enemies of workers everywhere.

A Mexican worker is just as human and just as deserving of a good life as an American one.

[fishwax]

117. nicely said

<<A Mexican worker is just as human and just as deserving of a good life as an American one.>>

I think it's a bit of a twist to say that defending the rights of generally impoverished mexican immigrants is top-down classism.

:shrug:

[sandnsea]

3. Not as it relates to immigration

Maybe other areas. I haven't heard anybody that doesn't understand underpaid immigrants, or any other employee, drive wages down. The dispute seems to arise when people want to target the immigrant instead of those who are benefitng from driving the wages down.

[expatriot]

4. Now I am a caucasian citizen working in a bordertown for 6.50 an hour.

And I don't consider it an economic concern. So where does that put me?


I feel it is an economic concern in that "illegals" (I hate referring to them as such) are not provided protections of the law. I hate to think that I am being given entitlements that they don't have that I don't deserve (on edit: that I don't deserve any more than they do).

[expatriot]

6. I have to go pick my wife up from her job, brb nt

[QC]

21. Do you not think that a big supply of cheap labor

makes it possible for the bossman to pay people just $6.50 an hour?

The law of supply and demand applies to labor, you know.

[Mojambo]

5. Put me in the "All class, all the time" category. n/t

;)

[AlienGirl]

7. Every time we talk about "trailer trash" or "rednecks"

Class lurks in the background. When you say "redneck" I think you mean my uncle, the deer-huntin' horseshoe-tossin' Democrat.

Tucker

[blondeatlast]

9. And all 100+ of my Kansas relatives, all of whom I voted Dem in 2004,

2002, 2000, 1998, clear back to probably well before FDR.

There is classism, racism, sexism, jingoism, ad nauseaum on DU--dammit, we just can't get past the fact that we are merely human and we have faults!

[CoffeeCat]

11. We must be cousins, because you just...

...described my father!

See you at the next family reunion!

;)

[AlienGirl]

13. Shawn?? Kristin?? Greg?? Which one are you?? n/t

[CoffeeCat]

14. Nope, none of those!

I guess there's more than one "deer hunting, horeshoe tossing" guy out there!

[AlienGirl]

15. Oh, there are more cousins...

I just named the "known Internet users!"

Tucker

[QC]

22. Yep, but if you object to people using classist slurs like those,

you will be told that they're not talking about people like your family or mine, but only those mean, icky, awful people.

It reminds me of the racists who have told me so many times that when they say n***** they are only talking about trashy people, not nice black folks, whom they consider their very best friends. Yeah, right. Pull my other one--it's got bells on it.

The truth is that when someone like my father, who grew up dirt poor in an Alabama mining camp, hears people dismissed as "rednecks" and "white trash," he hears the same ugly words that were thrown at him as a child by more prosperous people from town. And when he hears people say those words, he knows they have no use for him and people like him. He's a staunch Democrat, fortunately, but it's not hard to see why so many other people like him believe Limbaugh when he tells them that the 'libruls' hold them in contempt. The fact is, an awful lot of 'libruls' really do look down on them.

[solinvictus]

25. What part of Alabama?

My grandad on my mom's side was dirt poor coal miner here in northern Jefferson County, right above Birmingham.

[QC]

26. Franklin County. n/t

[hootinholler]

116. Yep. Nailed that one.

Except it ain't my uncle I think of, it's me. I was raised in a Mobie Home. Yes, A trailer. I know these people first hand, I am one of them. I lived it. These are people whose ends almost or never meet, the rural ghettos without the desperation density that breeds gangs.

When I see someone refer to trailer trash, white trash, rednecks, etc. my first thought is You elitist prick. In fact I called someone here that just yesterday. It's harder and harder to not resent the ignorance portrayed by these comments, but still I try to educate rather than resent.

I no longer live in a trailer, haven't for some long time. Hopefully my kids won't have this attitude, so far they show no sign of it.

As to politics, I'm not really a Democrat nor am I a Republican. You see I feel equally screwed by both sides of the aisle, although the Democrats seem to like lubrication better. There are damned few politicians who really care about the welfare of the least among thier constituents. For me, they don't have to, if they take care of the Constitution, it will take care of me, as long as the judges apply it accurately. But then again, I'm an oddity.

-Hoot

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bobthedrummer]

35. There were other forms of discrimination and societal structural barriers

involved in my particular case-sometimes I'm hired to play music at "the sleazy bar on Highway 77" by the sleazy bar owner, a class enemy.

[annabanana]

54. please supply a link,

where those terms are used..(and not by someone who claims to be one)
I'm on a lot here, and I haven't noticed them.

[ohio_liberal]

75. All you have to do is look for a NASCAR thread

:(

[UdoKier]

104. I'm dirt-poor and have no interest in Nascar

OR "pro wrestling" for that matter. That's not a class thing, it's a taste thing.

[UncleSepp]

64. Amen to that, my cousins too!

My family out in Kentucky are as redneck as you can get, and I love 'em for it. I've met very few other people who can give and care and embrace others as deeply as my cousins do.

[ohio_liberal]

72. Thank you

I've noticed this a lot. Thanks for addressing it.

[On the Road]

10. It Cuts Both Ways

If you're not concerned about illegal immigration, you're suspected of being economically above it all. If you ARE concerned, you're suspected of being above the Mexicans.

[blondeatlast]

12. Nailed it. nt

[QC]

16. Could you add a "hell fucking yeah you bet your sweet ass it is" option?

Class prejudice is expressed very openly here 24/7, and those of us who call people on it are accused of being "too sensitive," worried that we might offend Republicans, defenders of racists, etc.

[JVS]

28. Too many yuppie Cub fans!

[Redstone]

31. Does it count when I get attacked for pointing out that

the people in Labrador and Newfoundland don't have a whole bunch of options for feeding their families besides killing seals?

Apparently, people do think that these folks should just start a Web-design studio, or do infotech consulting, or open a Starbucks instead.

I'm not trying to be insulting by saying that, because the people who jumped all over me really seem to think those are options for those folks.

I get the sense that there are not a lot of really wealthy people at DU, but there does also appear to be a great lack of understanding of the reality in some parts of the world of genuine poverty and lack of options.

There are places in the world where survival trumps idealism, of necessity.

Just my opinion.

Redstone

[Cobalt Violet]

32. I'm getting fed up with the poor bashing going on here.

All the stereotypes about how we poor live in trailer parks, shop at Wal-Mart, vote republican or not at all, eat fast food, are uneducated, don't read, are fooled by the RWs use of religion, and the list goes on.

It's bigotry and it is classist.

[solinvictus]

33. Wal Mart shopping..

I hate Wal Mart as much as anyone, but my God, not everyone can afford to shop at WholeFoods or other upscale organic/free trade retailers. When the SO and I were both earning about $8/hour, most of our shopping was done at Sav-a-Lot, a discount grocer that carried nothing but store brand items. We couldn't really afford to shop at Wal Mart.

[Dorian Gray]

37. Hah!

The Whole Foods comment really made me laugh! I live in NYC, and I love WholeFoods, but it's so freaking expensive! It's an irony of sorts.

[Just Me]

74. I couldn't have fed me and kid without Sav-a-Lot during recent hard times.

Now that I'm employed, I've moved "up" to Krogers,...but, still turn to Sav-a-lot to purchase poultry and meat and canned goods.

Still, I avoid Wal Mart with a passion because it's been a death sentence to so many small business owners with whom my family is close. I just never thought of humanity as being perpetually condemned to something far worse than a natural "survival of the fittest" scheme. I believe we have been granted the potential associated with "choice".

*sigh*

[shanti]

82. i know...

when i was a single mom college student on welfare raising 3 sons, i had to shop at the grocery outlet (aka the smashed can outlet) to make my food stamps stretch. i make a decent living now (raising my last, fourth son), but still shop there.

old habits die hard, i guess....it's just wrong to generalize about us dems.

[0007]

34. There are those who appear to follow the trend on most threads, for sure!

But who isn't bias based on social and economic class when the wealthy make laws that the poor must follow?

You'll find more innocent poor people in prison than rich ones.

[rman]

36. as in, awareness of the ongoing class warfare waged on us by the elites?

-

[PurityOfEssence]

38. There's SOME classism, but there's LOTS of aggressive thin-skinnedness

We're a big tent, and the human race is fraught with egocentric failings.

Railing at how others discriminate against one is tiresome after a very short time, much like religious persecution diatribes.

We suck much less than society at large, and that very statement is self-congratulatory elitism itself, so big damn deal.

[blondeatlast]

50. "We suck much less than society at large." Perfect. Dead-on perfect.

Thank you for the best laugh I've had in a while.

[Nikia]

39. The internet allows associations that wouldn't happen in real life

And many Duers speak with their usual voice, the one that they use when they around people just like them. Yes, we are enlightened liberals. In that respect, we are all just like them. On the otherhand, DU does encompass people of all sorts of backgrounds. Things like gender, race, and religion are easier to be aware of. Class is a real thing, but it is not so easily defined. There aren't such neat categories. As a result, we have upper middle class people here speaking as upper middle class people, not considering that other people might have a different view, especially when the issue being discussed is a class issue. Don't people usually speak differently about other groups when discussing them when they are not present compared to when they are present. Upper middle class people don't see the working class people on DU. The poor and working class people at DU are "passing" just as a light skinned black person might "pass" and be involved in a "harmless" conversation with white strangers about "those people".

[annabanana]

52. We are all blindfolded here in the parlor, aren't we?

Occasionally we offend each other, what with the blindfolds, and all. But I've found that if we're called on it, most will back up, recognize their natural born prejudices and at least try to see from another perspective.

And THAT is one of the things I find classy about liberals.

[mdmc]

40. one must be able to access the web for long periods of time

to really enjoy DU.

Poor people need to work two or three jobs and can't afford on line access.

Any online discussion forum will have obvious class-ism.

[DrDebug]

61. Good point about the inherit bias

I think that the average DUer is significantly higher educated and significantly richer as well (often middle class or urban professionals) compared the average Democrat. That in itself gives rises to some elitism you sometimes sense.

I doubt whether classism can be avoided especially in a big tent messageboard where you always have the inevitable grouping and schisms

[mdmc]

110. for such a bright bunch, this point is often overlooked

:kick:

[gorbal]

41. Yes, but I would not use that example

I think most blue collar workers are smarter than you give them credit for. At least this one is.

[SoCalDem]

44. Collar colors have faded...

Blue collar conjures up "The Life of Riley", "The Honeymooners", and "Archie Bunker".. White coller conjures up doctors, lawyers, professional people..

Blue collar people these days make lots of money (some of them), because so many people have spent fortunes getting degrees for occupations that no longer pay well..

My husband has a post graduate degree, but is paid like a blue collar guy.. Unfortunately for us, he's too old to "re-train" (like *² loves to say), so we just downsized to fit our income..

Lots of people are unwilling to do so.

Had we not been TIED to a medical insurance plan that we HAD to have for our son, my husband could have used his degree and knowledge to go into business for himself, and we might be in a better financial position now that we approach old age, but we did not dare give up the insurance we needed so badly. (our son had 28 operations before he was 8 yrs old)..

Life is a trade-off..most of us cannot have it all.. We just hope to get what we need, and learn to be happy with what we have :)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

43. What "class" are the Mexican refugees?

Don't see all that many of them driving their BMWs across the desert.

[fishwax]

118. Exactly!

workers of the WORLD unite.

[w4rma]

45. I love this thread! This is a very important topic and this debate has

been very very good, here.

[Itsthetruth]

49. Don't Fall For Racist Scapegoating

Immigration is a class issue. It is an issue that should unite, not divide working people. Working class people who happen to be citizens have absolutely no self-interest in bashing immigrant workers, with or without papers. Politically astute workers understand how anti-labor elements and corporate interests want to scapegoat so-called "illegal" workers and blame them for the developing economic crisis. Our enemies want to divide us along race, sex, religious and citizen/non-citizen lines.

One "problem" with undocumented workers is figuring out how can we help organize them to fight against our common enemy. And another problem is explaining to otherwise "liberal" and "progressive" people why they should not support reactionary and racist right-wing outfits like the Minuteman which seek to divide working class people.

The discussions we've had on the Minuteman outfit demonstrate how people who started out as progressives can wind up embracing right-wing positions under difficult economic conditions. The Nazi and fascist movements in Germany, Italy and Spain had a significant number of confused and easily brainwashed ex-radicals and socialists in their ranks. So if you consider yourself progressive, don't be fooled by racist hate outfits like the Minuteman group.

[QC]

51. Where do you see "racist scapegoating" in this thread.

It would be helpful if you could point out a few examples.

[Itsthetruth]

55. Here Are Two

"Are you saying that all of us who oppose illegal immigration
at the level we are experiencing, are doing so for racist or classist reasons? Because if you are, that is an unfair and incorrect cheap shot, which I, for one, am sick of hearing."

"I'm saying that those in favor of illegal immigration are either willfully ignorant or indifferent to the fact that illegals depress wages and put American workers out of jobs."

[QC]

57. One of those is a misreading of the thread's intent,

though that poster does have a point--some people here do try to shut down discussion of this issue by imputing racist motives to all who disagree with them--and the second one is an indisputable statement of fact, since the law of supply and demand applies to labor just as surely as it does to widgets.

Sorry, but I don't see "racist scapegoating" in this thread.

[Itsthetruth]

59. It's A Law Or Scientific Principal?

"the law of supply and demand applies to labor just as surely as it does to widgets."

Please explain how that economic "law" works and how it affects labor conditions? It seems to me that many things can interfere with and make this so-called "law" totally bogus when applied to labor conditions. In fact, this "law" actually has little or nothing to do with the conditions faced by working people in terms of employment and economic status.

[QC]

60. If the bossman can get a job done for $5.15 an hour,

he's not going to pay $10 an hour.

Surely you are not trying to argue that the number of available workers has no impact on wages.

[Itsthetruth]

62. So-Called "Supply And Demand Law" Can Be No Factor At All!

"If the bossman can get a job done for $5.15 an hour, he's not going to pay $10 an hour. Surely you are not trying to argue that the number of available workers has no impact on wages."

I will argue that an employer can be forced to pay far more that $5.15 an hour and that the number of unemployed workers available can have little or no bearing on what he will pay his/her employees. That's what I will argue.

The so-called "law" of supply and demand does not determine how much an employer pays in wages and benefits in the United States and other nations. In nations that have or had a nationalized economy it is absolutely no factor at all! That's simply a bogus economic theory we are taught in school to conceal the real factors that determine the wages and benefits workers receive in most of the world, including the United States. That's what I will demonstrate and prove!

[QC]

63. So when wages rise in times of labor shortage

that's simply coincidence? Or it is because our corporate overlords just want to do something nice for us?

Yes, governments can mandate a living wage, and ours should. In the meantime, however, here in the world in which we actually live and work, giving the bossman an infinite supply of cheap, easily-oppressed workers has the effect of pushing down wages.

If you don't believe me, take a careful look at what has happened to construction and meatpacking in these past two decades.

[Itsthetruth]

65. No

No. When unemployment is low workers seem to be in a better position to demand higher wages and benefits by organizing labor unions and pressing their demands. But, that is only true if they are well organized and represented. When unemployment is high, the employers seem to be in a better position to cut wages and benefits by threatening to either use strike breakers or outsource for cheaper labor. However, that also is not always true. Even under those terrible conditions workers can actually improve their pay and conditions of work.

During the great depression of the 1930's one would think that the employers could just go on cutting wages because of the huge poll of unemployed workers. Right? Wrong! During the height and deepest part of that depression the wages of millions went up! And workers won paid vacations, time and a half for overtime, etc., How could that happen given the "law of supply and demand"? The organization and growth of the CIO and AFL unions beginning in 1934
changed that. Unionized workers did not recognize or accept the so-called "supply and demand" law. They made their own laws on wages which they enforced. The "collective bargaining" law. And the gains made by organized workers lifted up the wages and living standards of almost all other unorganized workers. The employers threw the "supply and demand" law out the window and made wage and other improvements for the unorganized workers because they feared unionization!

So the "supply and demand law" just hasn't work out very well for employers during the best of times, provided their employers were well organized and represented by competent leaders. The "law of supply and demand" has proven to be meaningless when working people and their organizations are able to win signficant increases in pay via minimum wage laws and other improvements in their working conditions via the passage of government laws relating to overtime pay, worker safety, health, equal pay for equal work, discrimination and other major job issues.

[QC]

67. While we're on the subject of labor history,

a fascinating topic that doesn't get anywhere near enough attention, it's very instructive to look at what the government/corporate elite (really the same thing) did in the late 19th and early 20th centuries in response to labor getting uppity: they greatly increased immigration limits.

Why do you suppose they did that?

[Itsthetruth]

69. Immigrants Didn't Help Employers Weaken Labor Movements

Thecapitalists needed many more workers in order to enable a rapid expansion and industrialization of the capitalist economy.

Increasing immigration limits was not a capitalist plot to curb militant trade unionism and socialism as you suggest. Many of these immigrant workers brought with them not only their bodies but also their militant European socialist, trade union and other radical ideas. These immigrants had a tremendous radical impact on workers political and economic organizations. These immigrants played a major role in helping to make workers organizations bigger, stronger and more effective. That was the downside for the ruling rich.

The wage and benefits of workers has never been based on the so-called "labor supply and demand" theory. Never. Not anywhere at anytime in history.

The wages and benefits workers have secured from employers has always been contingent on how well organized, united and determined workers have been compared to their employers. Now that is a hard rule that has a lot more validity than supply and demand.

Some call that a rule of "class warfare". Others deny that such warfare has ever existed and insist that we are all just one big united happy family, labor and capital, in which big business will take care of our needs if we just don't interfere with their operations and let "supply and demand" run its course.

[w4rma]

70. This thread is NOT about immigrants. It's about *illegal* immigrants. (nt)

[QC]

73. I would suggest that you consider the role of scab labor

in the period we are discussing. Where do you suppose men like Carnegie and Frick got their strikebusters?

And again, if we had strong unions and a federal government not intent on destroying organized labor, then you would be right about supply & demand having little impact on wages. But we do not live in such a world right now. In the world in which we now live and work, unions are weak and the government hostile to workers. In such an environment, pumping up the labor supply in an excellent way to lower wages. Again, if you don't believe me, consider the example of the meatpacking industry, which paid a good wage and bennies just twenty years ago and is now one of those "jobs Americans won't do."

[Itsthetruth]

76. I Know About "Scabs" Do You?

I'm familiar with the role of "scabs" during strikes and how organized labor defeated them in the past. Are you? Perhaps you can cite some contemporary significant strikes in which immigrants, with or without papers, were used to break strikes?

It hasn't happened and it won't if organized labor brings together and organizes ALL workers, those with and without government papers.

By the way. When you insult undocumented workers by calling them "scabs" you're adopting and using the right-wing labor hating propaganda of union busters that want to sow division, racial hatred, and confusion in our ranks. I hope you didn't mean to do that.


"And again, if we had strong unions and a federal government not intent on destroying organized labor, then you would be right about supply & demand having little impact on wages. But we do not live in such a world right now. In the world in which we now live and work, unions are weak and the government hostile to workers. In such an environment, pumping up the labor supply in an excellent way to lower wages. Again, if you don't believe me, consider the example of the meatpacking industry, which paid a good wage and bennies just twenty years ago and is now one of those "jobs Americans won't do."

You just proved my point. The wages and benefits of workers depends upon how well organized the working class is to defend their interests in both the economic and political fields. As you point out, the government represents the interests of the employers. And its actions, or inaction, can have a huge impact on the wages and benefits of workers. The supply and demand "law" is of no importance in that conflict of interests. Government policies on behalf of the employers and a corporations labor policy depends upon the strength or weakness of workers organizations including labor unions and political parties and political activity within corporate run parties.

The employers have been on a powerful and successful campaign against workers for 25 years now. Their war against labor and the reduction of our standard of living has not been dependent on "supply and demand" laws. It's been based on government sanctioned strike breaking and union busting under both Democratic and Republican administrations. It's been based on an anti-worker and anti-union policy implemented by Congress, the courts and the White House.

NAFTA has nothing to do with pumping up the internal labor supply in order to eliminate jobs and reduce job benefits. Nor have outsourcing, downsizing, speed-up, etc., have much to do with the "supply and demand" law.

The employers and the government they control have been able to cut or hold down our pay and benefits and engage in other economic and political actions to reduce our living standards only because we (working people) have permitted them to. And that has nothing to do with "supply side" laws.

If and when working people develop effective mass economic and political organizations with a competent leadership, the employers legislative and economic offensive against labor will be defeated no matter what the "supply & demand" statistics demonstrate. They are irrelevant.

[Just Me]

78. Hence, there is really only ONE enemy,...and it ain't the immigrants.

Yes?

The ENEMY are the corporacrats who are using both us and immigrants for profit.

Enforce the immigration and human rights laws; pressure the Mexican government to actually "grow" a middle class via fair wages; PUNISH ALL corporations for imposing a form of slave labor; OPPOSE a government that supports "wealthfare" rather than a healthy democracy which requires a passion for creating both social and economic justice and legislation ensuring the same.

IT'S NOT ABOUT THE IMMIGRANTS!!! IT'S ABOUT THOSE WHO ARE EXPLOITING PEOPLE, ALL PEOPLE!!!

Yes?

Yes!!!

[QC]

79. I come from a union family, so I know good and well what a scab is.

I did not, anywhere in this or any other thread, refer to "undocumented workers" as scabs. You simply pulled that one out of your ass, which is where it should have stayed.

The point, which you missed in your eagerness to accuse me of "using the right-wing labor hating propaganda of union busters that want to sow division, racial hatred, and confusion in our ranks" is that the bosses do not hesitate to take advantage of a large labor supply.

Perhaps you can cite some contemporary significant strikes in which immigrants, with or without papers, were used to break strikes?

Is the National Farm Workers Union strike of 1965 contemporary enough for you? It was the growers' practice of using immigrant strikebreakers that led Chavez to call for a boycott and to propose restrictions on immigration. (I guess he didn't know that he was "adopting and using the right-wing labor hating propaganda of union busters that want to sow division, racial hatred, and confusion in our ranks." Too bad you weren't around then to explain to him that he was a tool of the bourgeoisie.)

[QC]

80. Here's something even more contemporary.

A UFW strike in 1974 against lemon growers in Yuma, Arizona. In this one, "the Border Patrol opened the border, and trucks hauling strikebreakers roared up through the Sonora desert every night. Local police and sheriffs provided armed protection." (http://dbacon.igc.org/FarmWork/09LookUFW.htm)

Moving ahead to 1975, we find an L.A. Times editorial in which Chavez himself explained why he believed a boycott to be necessary: "Certainly, strikes more directly affect the growers, but they usually have been willing to accept the resultant losses and have recruited strikebreakers from Mexico. The boycott, then, is our last nonviolent alternative." (http://www.sfsu.edu/~cecipp/cesar_chavez/Union_Is_Alive.htm)

And here's a story from 2004, which I trust makes it contemporary enough, about San Francisco hotels using undocumented day laborers as strikebreakers. "Steve Zeltzer, a labor organizer and candidate for District 9 supervisor, said that hiring undocumented day laborers to break a strike is nothing new. 'Historically, that’s happened before — companies will bring in illegal immigrants to replace striking workers,' he said." (http://lists.iww.org/pipermail/iww-news/2004-November/007005.html)

[Itsthetruth]

85. It Seems You Don't Have A Clue On What "Scabs" Are

If you do, why in the world are you calling undocumented immigrant workers "scab labor"?

The labor movement has never taken that position. Not any union leader worthy of being called a leader nor any trade union that is not a company union. "Scabs" are workers who cross union strike picketlines and almost all in American labor history have been 100% American citizens!

So please don't misuse the word scab and pervert its traditional union definition.

[QC]

87. Again, I did not refer to "undocumented workers" as scabs.

And I have already explained that once. Try reading posts before responding to them--it'll do wonders for the quality of what you post here.

I have provided four examples of imported workers being used to break strikes since 1965. That clearly contradicts your earlier statement that such a thing had never happened, an assertion that you are now weasel-wording into "almost." Perhaps that is why you are so eager to change the subject.

[Just Me]

77. Wish we could re-characterize as labor scabbed by corporatists.

The thing is,...the illegal immigrants are being every bit as used and abused by the corporatists,...as are we.

In other words, the immigration struggle is really about corporacrats using us all (Americans and illegal immigrants) to inure to their benefit.

If we are going to be consistent, the overriding factor in these debates must be the "rule of law": that which delineates immigration AND that which protects human rights. These laws don't conflict as the power-mongering corporacrats would lead us all to believe. Both sets of laws can be enforced.

Moreover, as you pointed out,...who is protecting fair (let alone LIVING) wages for all human beings in this debate? Is the Mexican government being pressured to pursue such economic justice, freedom and equality? NO!!!! Are the American corporaprofiteers being pressure to uphold such economic justice, freedom and equality? NOT!!!

Like you stated,...the FOCUS should be directed at the source of those who ABUSE the immigration for their benefit,...not the immigrants or the American people who are, quite honestly, having to sacrifice for the benefit of corporateers.

[norml]

48. Some people go on and on about the expensive stuff they've bought.

I suppose I could go on and on about how poor I am. I know I oppose third worlders flooding into the country to take jobs. I see the solution in fining employers who hire third world labor, for every one they employ, for every day they employ them. If it gets too expensive for the employers, they will stop hiring third world labor, and that labor will stop coming. The right wing media drumming on about having a Maginot Line on the border, is just nonsense to distract from their trying to sell their "Guest Worker Program".

[southlandshari]

53. David Shipler on CSPAN2 now

for those interested in his writings on the "working poor" in America. Discuss on this thread or here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3490159

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

56. Yes. Directed against the economic refugees from Latin America.

Under the thin veneer of "protecting jobs".

[omega minimo]

58. Other: Everybody loves/hates the Underdog

Democrats used to be the party of the common person, the underdog. Now the Repugs have got EVERYONE identifying with the RICH, buying into the Trickle On Theories and rhetoric, in case one day THEY are rich, too. (See SS privatization, "Death Tax," superrich tax cuts, 90's popularization of stock investing, etc.) Meanwhile, watching with a blank stare at the evisceration of the social safety net.

The luxury of privilege: standing on the fingers of those below you on the rungs of the socio-economic ladder-- and pretending you didn't notice them.

Empathy comes with experience. Often defensive superiority is a response to feeling threatened. Scratch the surface and you may find a sexist afraid of women's power or homoeroticism; a white blissfully oblivious of their inherent privilege (and the implications of that); an overeducated progressive using their degrees to prop up insecurities, to be superior to everyone without abbreviations after their name (including "blue collar" folks with better/different skills and talents).

This thread touches on core issues for progressives and the Democratic Party. One is language. On DU, in this huge digi-community, we may be free to use veiled/bigoted language. However, REFRAINING from bigoted/sexist/racist/classist terminology encourages more thoughtful and creative discussion, which can lead to ACTUAL SOLUTIONS and action, including what used to be called Consciousness Raising.

It needn't take a Great Depression for Democrats to rediscover our common humanity.

In the early 90's, California newspapers had side by side front page headlines: The controversial NAFTA passage being considered in Congress and a CA initiative to demonize "ILLEGAL ALIENS." A scare campaign picturing brown demons surging up North to take away OUR jobs, while Congress was passing legislation that would send away OUR jobs. My question at the time was, "How stupid do they think we are?"

They're still doin it.

:evilgrin:

[lyonn]

68. Lots of interesting views on this post

First off I was interested in the point that the immigration issue had classism attached. I just got back from Calif. for a visit and noticed there were many more Mexicans than I had notice on previous visits, also I grew up there, Northern part. Thinking that many of them may have been illegal made me wonder how Calif. could afford the cost of health care, schooling, etc. This issue isn't about class but cost. Illegals are hired at very low wages and who knows for sure how much they pay into FICA, any payment there could help. For instance growers no doubt make more money due to cheap labor and that means cheaper cost at the store, hum, debatable. Here is my problem, for years I guess I was pretty dumb in that I thought many immigrants were "green carded" or had some documentation to allow them here to work. That seemed like a reasonable idea. Now it appears the gates are wide open and can America afford it. There is always the bad guy coming here without being documented, etc. Here in Okla. illegals are laying the bricks for bricked communities, roofing, all phases of the building industry, building hiways, etc,. What is happening to our "citizens" that once made a living doing those jobs? I believe the pay difference between the two could be as little as 3-4.00 per hr. Not sure. I am not hacking on Mexicans by any means, afraid it may sound that way, but illegal anybodys is a problem for our economy. We need some form of regulations. Of course we can't keep out all illegals but we once had a slight handle on it. Now it's a joke. Our hospitals and schools I believe are hit hard by illegals and we are all paying for it in the long run.

[ulysses]

84. and I'll ask again,

who among y'all who are so irate about jobs being taken from Americans of *all* classes that you're up in arms about NAFTA? That, my friends, has a far greater negative impact on the jobs of all Americans from the working poor to the middle class than the "flood of illegals" ever will.

[solinvictus]

86. NAFTA/GATT/WTO has hurt American and Mexican workers..

American jobs are sent to Mexico, Mexican jobs are sent to China, and Mexicans then move here to take up construction, landscaping, and food processing jobs.

[ulysses]

90. right, except that the jobs sent to Mexico

didn't do much for them in the first place, even before they were sent to Asia.

If people need to gripe about class and jobs, why aren't they griping about NAFTA?

[QC]

89. I don't recall anyone here defending NAFTA. n/t

[ulysses]

91. the irony I've noticed, though,

is that the DUers who most reliably defend the Minutemen, on purportedly classist grounds, generally have little to say about NAFTA, which has had a MUCH greater negative impact on working class jobs than has immigration.

[solinvictus]

92. I'd bet the majority of the Minutemen were against NAFTA as well..

Any legislation that permanently removes American jobs should be opposed across the board of political parties.

[ulysses]

93. I'll bet you're right.

It was a Clinton initiative, although the Republican ruling class has no problems with it. That's all the reason they need.

The majority of the Minutemen are where they are, not because they oppose Latinos taking American jobs, but because they are bigots.

[solinvictus]

94. Well...

I'm glad that Miss Cleo's Psychic Line called to inform you of their intrinsic motivation. I suppose that manner of mind reading is unique in this world.

[ulysses]

95. ...

Even now, you want to paint them as patriots simply protecting the jobs of their countrymen and women? They're just waving Confederate flags because they like the pattern?

It doesn't take a psychic, friend.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

123. Geez, have you read what their organizers have said and done?

Chris Simcox? These people aren't just half hearted racists, they are full blown bigots who would like nothing more than to have a white country. They've successfully used an issue to make it "ok" to believe their racist propaganda. It's the same crap the Nazi's pulled. People are suffering in your country? Well, let's look for a scapegoat and blame them. Bad Mexicans!

It doesn't take a genius to see that illegal immigration wouldn't be a problem if corporations didn't offer the jobs in the first place. But they make no effort to stop those corporations. They take the least effective option but the one that lets them express their bigotry best.

[solinvictus]

125. Penalizing the corporations..

is a good start, but will any of our representatives have the will to initiate the needed legislation?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

126. You don't find another to blame because it is difficult to pursue

the true cause. If the minutemen were REALLY worried about illegal immigration, they would be going to the source.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

112. They just like the idea of pulling guns on Mexicans

[LSdemocrat]

96. I think the bigger DU problem is cultural elitism

Blue staters making blanket statements about people in red states.

Nonreligious people versus religious people.

People who look at pop culture with disdain versus people who embrace it. (bigger problem in the Lounge)

Also keep in mind, in many parts of the country, illegal immigration just isn't much of a concern because it doesn't really reach there.

[Jamastiene]

97. Who you calling an immigrant, pilgrim?

This is a general statement not directed at the OP or anyone directly. I just see the immigrant issue as people who were pushed out of this country coming back in, that is, if talking about Mexican immigrants. I do see an economic impact, but I also see a real opportunity to better the country through diversity. I honestly think the jobs that illegal immigrants do as a general rule are jobs most Americans wouldn't want to do for the amount of pay offered. They can actually be an asset to our communities if you look at their voting statistics...

Classism on DU? I think maybe/other may apply in a limited number of cases. I have had people tell me to up and move because I mention being in the Bible Belt and being unhappy about it. It's very hard to explain to someone that the cost of living differences between say North Carolina and New York or California, or the northeast in general make it very difficult to achieve my goal of moving. If I can only earn minimum wage or less (I worked my first job for 6 years earning less than mimimum wage and many jobs I have been offered were under minimum wage) and can barely afford $350 a month rent. I am going to have to strive very hard and for a very long time to save up and be able to afford to move to an area where monthly rent is more than I can make in a month here. I have to live this month too and it costs. The minimum in the nearest big city here is around $1000. As far as some on DU not getting that, I don't think it's classism, just a lack of understanding of the very limited opportunities for a person who grew up poor even compared to other people who live in a very impoverished area.

[solinvictus]

98. I can agree on the "just move away" options given here..

Moving is expensive as hell and, on top of that, one must have secured employment in the new city in order to move. It's no different than the Repukes whose advice is "get training" or "get a better job" ignoring the fact that a university or technical education can well be outside the realm of most people's finances.

[Jamastiene]

102. You're right.

Not to mention that in small towns, jobs are given in a herarchy system by whoever is the elite group in town. And sexism and racism are the norm as well. It's a known fact that getting a decent paying job in the town I live in is not about your qualifications. It's about who you are friends with or "who you know" and who you are. One example is that there is a pothead who has a job for an electrical contractor in town and openly admits to doing the drugs and also openly admits that he got the job because someone in his family had connections. Meanwhile, a woman applying for the same job it told straight out that she won't be getting the job because she is female. Or she gets the run around if she even asks for an application or tries to submit a resume. And in a heavy textiles or manufacturing situation, jobs have left town to go where wages paid can be cheaper for employers. That's what happened to the textiles industry that this town relied on so heavily for so long. It's gone. What has replaced it is Wal Mart and moms and pops operations who only hire 1 or 2 employees for miminum wage and part time. Mimimum wage and part time equals poverty, especially since they roll the sidewalks up here earlier than 5:00 P.M. It's a quagmire of what ifs and how can I manage to survive here, let alone save up to leave here.

[ultraist]

114. The textile & manufacturing industries are gone due to OUTSOURCING

Outsourcing and NAFTA have a far greater impact on jobs than do the undocumentated workers.

[Jamastiene]

129. I agree with you.

Like I said in my earlier post, the jobs that many of these people (illegal immigrants) take are jobs that pay under minimum wage and they are jobs most native born Americans wouldn't want to do for the salary offered. NAFTA and outsourcing killed the textiles and manufacturing industries. The biggest problem with the leadership in the county where I live, they put all their eggs in one basket with textiles being the only above minimum wage earning employer around and that is what sucked this place dry when NAFTA kicked in. If they hadn't done that, we may have a chance to recover a little from it. Now, it's like being up the proverbial creek without a paddle.

[Fescue4u]

100. No Classism...Just superior people and inferior people...

(just kidding ;)

[norml]

101. Employers who employ workers from poorer countries should be fined

Employers who employ workers from poorer countries should be fined
for every worker from a poorer country they employ, for every day they employ them. All the jobs that can leave the country, to go to workers in poorer countries, are already gone. Now it's a matter of not having workers from poorer countries brought in to take jobs here. Allowing employers to employ workers from poorer countries, drives down wages and working conditions, for everyone living here. Oh, and by the way, the border is just a distraction. If there are no jobs offers, workers from poorer countries, will not come, and will go home. If jobs are offered, no amount of border guarding will keep them out. Exemptions for certain seasonal migrant agricultural labor, would of course, remain in place.

[norml]

103. Today on DU, when I said I needed my dental insurance to get a $500 crown

and that's with it just paying half, I was told that there were people picking my food, who have no teeth. I didn't tell them that most of the other delivery drivers I work with, have had their teeth pulled, rather than going through the expense, for the luxury, of getting a crown. It isn't teens who are doing pizza delivery anymore. It's old men, with crumbling teeth, working two jobs, in a constant state of exhaustion, and poverty. Prices have risen, wages haven't. Working conditions haven't gotten better. They have gotten worse. I was told that I should get educated. I said that I have gotten educated, and somehow it hasn't lead to any high paying professional positions. I could've told them about my brother in law, who's worked all his life in high tech electronics, who's job went to China, and who now works as a security guard. Would more education help him? And how is this education to be afforded? And how is there to be found time to get educated, while working two jobs? And what about those people who aren't smart enough, or good at school enough? Do they just deserve their fate? I felt like I was hearing Rush Limbaugh tell me that my poverty was a result of my own moral failings. Could be, but I know there is obvious classism on DU.

[ultraist]

115. Your bro in law's job was OUTSOURCED?

Why is it when discussions of lack of jobs come up, all of the blame is put on undocumented workers? I agree with others who have said, the scapegoating is racist.

As far as classism on DU, I've seen some, from both directions but I've seen far more racism here, racism against Mexicans and Blacks in particular.

[norml]

119. It's not "scapegoating", it's fact.

Employing workers from poorer countries puts pressure on all jobs here. Whether by outsourcing to send the jobs out of this country, or insourcing, to bring the workers from poorer countries into this country. I'm not putting blame on just one factor, but it's ridiculous to claim that jobs aren't being taken, and downward pressure isn't being applied by all the "undocumented workers" coming into this country. And this, even more so, applies to those workers from poorer countries, who would be given some sort of document, under Dubya's "Guest Worker Program".

[magellan]

105. This is a great thread

And it prompts me to admit that few days go by before another comment I read on the DU makes me wonder if I'm in the wrong place or have run across a freeper.

My hubby and I are both ex-military. Between us we've traveled extensively and have lived in many different places/countries. Neither of us has more than a high school education but we indulge many varied interests and consider ourselves lifelong students. We live in a mobile home in a "red" state to be near my father. We drive a used SUV because we determined it was the most reliable and affordable of our choices when we moved back to the US from overseas. We're hoping it lasts because we don't have the money or credit to buy another vehicle, although we'd like our next one to be a hybrid. We live paycheck to paycheck on very little and work hard for it. Neither of us were born or raised in the South. We are WAY liberal.

These are the facts of our lives. So when I read derogatory remarks concerning any of the "telltale signs" above, like references to people who live in trailers or drive huge gas guzzlers, or the implication that having no college education means one's opinion doesn't matter as much...even without the further insinuation that these signs mark one as an obvious Bushbot, it hurts. To me, such generalizations only reveal how uninformed, callous or elitist the DUer making them must be.

Stereotypes are simple; people are not. People tend to be far more complicated and faceted than they appear in a snapshot glimpse, be it real or virtual. Their stories are always unique, interesting, and can be surprisingly unexpected -- if you care to hear them. Slapping someone with a label based on where or how they live, their education, what they look like, what they drive...It's ridiculous. Judging someone based on any perceived "defect" short of their own words and actions is elitist (and sometimes racist).

We all discriminate to varying degrees. It's human nature to size ourselves up against one another. But at its core, elitism, like racism, has much more to do with fear and lack of compassion than superficial distinctions. "See how educated/rich/beautiful I am" speaks less to the value of one's thoughts than to the hollowness of one's soul. We'd all do better if we stopped jumping to conclusions and took the time to consider everyone outside of ourselves someone to learn from.

As for the illegal immigrant thing, I lived in L.A. in a barrio. My best friend to this day is a first generation Mexican-American. So I'm not unfamiliar with the problem. As I've stated in other threads, I understand the desire of foreigners to live in the US and raise themselves and their families up. My own husband is one of them. He, however, is here LEGALLY.

And that's what the issue boils down to for me: if you're willing to forgive some immigrants their illegal status, then there should be no restrictions against other immigrants who want to move here but have no legal or geographical means to do so. (There are lots of people in that boat; they won't break the law, can't just walk across a border, and so will never have the opportunity live in the US.) If our government wants to bestow freebie incentives on some illegals, then the same incentives should be offered to ALL immigrants...Including my husband, whose legal immigration set us back quite a lot.

To me it's about the law, and why some should have to follow it while others don't. That includes the corporations who hire illegals.

You see, not everyone who opposes illegal immigration can be pigeon-holed as a racist or an economic elitist. I fit neither of those categories. My reasons for opposing illegal immigration are my own, and are as valid as my reasons for living in a mobile home in a red state, owning an old SUV, and having little education or money but a lot of liberal moxie.

Anyone care to generalize in my general direction NOW?

[EFerrari]

106. Brava. We don't agree and I love your post.

See mine, #66

:applause:

[enigmatic]

107. Great post. n/t

[HeeBGBz]

108. I'm a 5th generation Ozark hillbilly gum-chewin' waitress in a trailer.

If you call me a Republican, I'll kick your ass.

Yes, I've read quite a few comments that sting with the inference that my way of life is something to be looked down upon.

I hold no major grudges. If the world continues in this downward spiral of social insanity, the experience of living paycheck to paycheck in a rural environment may be a blessing in disquise. We already know how to scavenge an existance. It's going to be quite a shock for those who haven't experienced it.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

111. I think there's more obvious racism than classism

Since the jobs you REALLY want are going to people imported with Visas to drive your wages down and all anyone seems concerned about are the jobs no one ever aspires to like dishwasher, onion picker, chicken guts yanker, etc

[kodi]

113. yeap. many working class sensibilities are unwelcome here.

there are an awful lot of well meaning, well educated people here who have not let their education go to their heads.

i chalk this up to ego and the belief that many on the left believe they are members of the vanguard of the revolution who must lead the working class to the promised land.

aways back in 2001, under another name (AJA) i posted about classism on du. it also had hundreds of posts.

[LittleClarkie]

120. I'll need a splash of coffee first before I can answer

Oh, Basil! Bring me my coffee.

[sharonking21]

121. Class is the elephant in the room

that few are willing to acknowledge. Most seem determined to ignore it in the hopes it will, somehow, go away. That is quite typical of the United States, historically.

I do not necessarily agree entirely with the emphasis on the actual undocumented workers themselves voiced in threads about "illegal immigration".

But, while there may be a few elitist nativist individuals for whom the issue is based on racial dislikes, I have seen too many Hispanics here in Texas against further immigration to think that it is mainly, on an individual level, an issue of race rather than economics.

However, this one topic seems to be the only one that draws any attention on DU (or within the Democratic party itself) to the fact that we are a class-based society and thus have economic and social problems to solve that center around class.

Further, I do find that this combination of willful blindness and genuine blind spots within the party to class concerns is bad for the country and bad for the party. While we ignore the elephant, people are being subjected to worsening life conditions with no one to take up their banner, as the Democratic Party used to do.

Further, I think if the working class feels there is little difference between the two parties regarding economic policies, it is not too surprising to find a few more of them than in the past voting for Republicans based on non-economic issues.

In my mind, I picture a graph of division of wealth, income, and social status and ideology in the US that is on its way to becoming bimodal rather than normal. In this mind graph, the middle middle is dividing out into upper-middle and lower-middle class, with corresponding shifts at the far ends. Personally I do not think this is healthy for a democratic political system. I know it is not much fun for those on the low end.

The only perhaps "bright spot" I have noted is that middle-class parents who grew up under an earlier, slightly more homogeneous and hopeful (and at least nominally upwardly social mobile system) are beginning to see the effects on their children of the situation as it now stands, as their children struggle and often fail to attain middle-class status.

Unless the kid is a whiz and makes it through college with flying colors, never has any problems, and is lucky enough to land a "professional" stable job situation (rare indeed), what they are finding is that the kids are coming home to roost because no one except the lucky few can make it today under our current economic system.

This is starting to make them more aware of things like the minimum wage, Walmart-type employment, health care and insurance problems, educational opportunities, unfair tax and fee structures etc. This very situation has caused my formerly conservative Republican oilman brother to rethink some of his voting habits. This, plus the Iraq war and its deficits, convinced him to vote for Kerry this time.

[solinvictus]

122. "Elephant in the room" is an apt metaphor

I believe that most people want to deny that we are swiftly becoming a class based society as socio-economic mobility stagnates. We're lying to ourselves if we deny that there is still inherent classism in American society. The wealth disparity has contributed to the situation and as the Bushistas take away funding for education, it's going to transform America into a banana republic. The life experience, tastes, prejudices, and outlook of an American born into upper middle class life is alien to one born into a poor or working class family. Democrats need to take up the cause of workers again or they will relegate themselves to a status of permanent irrelevance.

[Bridget Burke]

124. There's occasional elitism....

References to trailer trash & flyover states.



But the Minutemen are still racist pigs.

[sharonking21]

127. Re: photo of Minuteman

No, that is the elephant in the room.}(

[No Exit]

131. Who cares what the Minutemen are??

Aren't they helping to split the damned repuke party?? And isn't that what we want?? For the repukes to lose power? I know it's what I want!

Let them go on. They're helping those of us who despise the craven republican party! (You don't have to join them; as a certain thrice-divorced, drug-addicted radio voice is fond of saying, "When your enemy is destroying himself, stand back and get out of the way!")

The other day, on another forum, some asshole was carping about democrats. Another poster--who himself was not a democrat--said to him, "If it's democrats who'll help us take down this corrupt administration, so be it."

I'll bet some of those Minutemen are former Bush voters. I'll bet they wish like hell they hadn't voted for the scum, since they see him opposing him on an issue they care about. They are therefore ripe to be persuaded to something better than republicanism. That's a good thing. (I'll try to persuade them--AFTER I cuss them out but good for supporting that asshole in 2004.)

[Pithlet]

128. Yep. Classism, sexism, racism...

All here. I've think that all three are just too pervasive in society to expect that it wouldn't happen here.

[Behind the Aegis]

130. yup...what you said!

I was going to post, there are lots of "-isms" on this board! But, with this many people here, it is bound to happen from time to time.