Bill Maher, Neo-con

[George 2]

This blog entry points out what many don't realize about Maher:

Craven Bill Maher, seemingly desperate to curry favor with the Bushians, once more tonight "admitted" that George Bush was right about Iraq, and that democracy is indeed spreading throughout the region. Maher also introduced crypto-neocon, pro-Iraq war guest Thomas Friedman as being someone who is "always on the money." Finally, Maher suggested that if someone really wanted to support a lost cause, they should donate to moveon.org. Of course, moveon.org is a prime target of the Bushian mouthpieces Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity. Am I surprised at Maher's drift towards neo-condom (they are all scumbags). No I'm not surprised, because I recall Maher's saying that Vietnam War was a noble cause, that we had to show the Russians somewhere that we were willing to fight, and that Vietnam happened to be the place. Maher also, I am disgusted to have to remind you, has similarly asserted that that the many violence-based U.S. interventions in Central America during the late 1980's were necessary to "stop Communism" there.

http://www.therationalradical.com/2005/04/bill-maher-neo-con.html

[tallahasseedem]

1. I have been griping about this on a couple of other threads...

This man has turned into a disgrace.

[Born Free]

90. stopped watching his show

The other week when he made it clear he got more right-wingers in the audience I figured it was time to stop watching.I haven't seen a show since, even though one of our Tivos still get it.

[mark414]

2. man i don't want to believe it

i have been disagreeing with a lot of these other threads...mostly just people ranting anyways...i just didn't want to believe it...but damn i guess he really did flip

that's sad

[tallahasseedem]

6. It is unreal...

Even my Husband, who has always thought Bill was too far to the left, looked at me tonight and said that Bill is changing.

[FreedomAngel82]

17. Vietnam and Iraq right???

Bill should read the rape stories from Iraq and our soliders. :mad:

[wtmusic]

3. If Junior was so "right" about Iraq

how come resistance is mounting and his ratings are in the toilet? H-m-m?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

4. Why I hate Bill Maher........

Yes, for all the things you enumerate up there, but I hate him most for stealing from Bill Hicks while Hicks was dying.

I saw a Maher show a month before Hicks passed away, and he had lifted whole, intact routines from Bill. (Denis Leary did the same stuff, and I hate him, too.)

For that, I've hated Maher, and I'll always hate him. He's just making it a whole lot easier to hate him since he's showing himself to be the weasel that he truly is.

That remark about Friedman always being on the money made me gag. Friedman himself has apologized for backing the invasion of Iraq, and now he's sucking up even more, writing books about how well democracy will do in the Middle East. My head is more likely to go up in flames before democracy thrives in the Middle East.

Maher's a suckass. Always was, always will be. And, don't forget, he steals from the dying.

[Swamp Rat]

9. That, I did not know.

What exactly did he steal?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

20. It's a long time ago,

and I'd have to listen to my Hicks CDs to refresh my memory.

It was verbatim. That's what was so outrageous, because everyone knew Bill was dying.

There's a great biography of Bill Hicks, called "American Scream." The theft is discussed there in great detail. Terrific book, by the way.

And, when I made a donation to the Bill Hicks Wildlife Fund, via billhicks.com, I got a handwritten thank-you note from his mother. It was so touching, I cried.

[Swamp Rat]

27. So many books to read, yet so little time.

It might have to wait 'til after grad school. :(

[OldLeftieLawyer]

98. Oh, you're a grad student?

OK, you're excused :)

You might want to do what I did when I was in law school: I started piling up books I would read after I graduated and passed the bar exam. I made a list, too, of the ones I hadn't bought.

Gradually, that stack of books became a shelf of books.

That shelf became a wall of bookshelves, filled with books I would someday read.

That wall became a room, and now I've taken off first one year, and now a second, just to read. It's easily the nicest thing I've ever done for myself, and the thirty-year wait was well worth it.

Good luck.

[enigmatic]

26. routines

Lock, stock, and barrel. Leary more so than Maher, but Maher did it, too.

[Swamp Rat]

31. Leary is a hack

I guess Maher is too. Sad... sad that more talented comedians don't get opportunities as do these hacks.

[gort]

80. One joke he stole from Hicks got him fired from ABC....

They blow themselves up in order to get at us, and we launch 3 million dollar missiles off of giant floating iron islands 2000 miles away -- Who are the real cowards?
~ Bill Hicks, (1993).


We have been the cowards lobbing cruise missiles from 2,000 miles away. That's cowardly. Staying in the airplane when it hits the building, say what you want about it, it's not cowardly.
~ Bill Maher, ABC TV (17 September 2001). Politically Incorrect

http://www.allthingswilliam.com/courage.html

Bill Maher is a libertarian. As Barry Crimmins once noted, a libertarian is simply a republican who smokes pot and Bill sure does like the weed. I would like to add that a libertarian is also someone who doesn't have a problem with stealing jokes from dead comedians.

[NYCGirl]

103. And it seems they both stole it from Lenny Bruce. NT

[frictionlessO]

111. Ahh but Hicks gave it up constantly to Bruce....

If you ever saw him live, almost every show he gave love up to Lenny.

The industry constantly tried to fuck Bill, even to try and black ball him for being a part of the OTO!

Hicks was a friend to any minority taking it up the ass by governement (of any stripe) and corporate ad shysters.

[enigmatic]

25. Your exactly right about this...

Hicks knew both Maher and Denis Leary were stealing his material...

[smirkymonkey]

104. Something about Maher has always repulsed me on a

visceral level, even when I DID agree with some of his politics.

Now the repugnance is completely thorough.

[goodboy]

105. THAT FUCKING PRICK! I didn't know that! (nt)

[vpigrad]

5. Everytime I watch that show...

he pisses me off with some idiot Bush-worship comment. He's 90% good, but that 10% is just unbearable.

[deacon]

7. He's always plays two ends against the middle, he's a fake

thats attempts to give the image that he isn't. Does he tell a few good jokes? Sure. But he's a phony.

And, look what company he enjoys. ann coulter the racist. Sorry Bill, but go bullshit other people. I won't waste my eyes and ears on ya.

As far as A1 polictical humor, I can easily find that elsewhere too.

[wookie294]

8. Maher really pissed me off

Maher fails to understand that Arab governments have been reforming for at least 15 years, long before the bullshit war in Iraq. Palestine held an historic election in 1996. Iran held an election in 1997 (it wasn't "perfect," but neither was the Iraq election perfect). The election brought a reformist to power. Lebanon has been holding elections since 1989 (granted, Syria occupies the country, but Bush occupies Iraq during its election). Morocco, Jordan and Kuwait have offered mild reforms of their political process during the 1990s, but nobody's saying "Way to go Clinton!" LOL!

The Nation magazine wrote an article on Mideast reforms that occurred long before Bush's crap war....

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20050328&s=editors

The process of reform in Arab countries began long before the idiot Bush.

[FreedomAngel82]

18. That really makes me so mad

:mad: When people give Bush this false credit and don't even talk about the chaos, massive death, abuse, rapes, etc. :mad:

[Discord]

102. So true, a trend towards more Democratic ideals has been

growing in the Middle East for over 20 years. Most have been initiated themselves or thru intermediary diplomacy. They do most of the work, we militarize one election and Bush* tries to claim the he single handedly brought democracy to the region. Its a fuckin joke.

[Selteri]

10. Just because you and he don't agree on something doesn't

make him a Neo-con shill.

He slams EVERYONE, he has slammed EVERYONE in the past and doesn't really care. He's a Libertarian, not a Dem not a Con.

Get over it and stop thinking that just because you and he don't agree about one or two points that he's automatically become a Neo-Con.

If you can't take that some people will occasionally have an opinion you don't agree with.

IF YOU REALLY REALLY WANT TO ATTACK EVERYONE WHO MAKES AN OPINION YOU DON'T AGREE WITH AND CALL THEM A TRAITOR, JOIN THE REPUBLICANS, THEY NEED SMALL MINDS.

[wookie294]

12. Why should we "get over it"??

We're merely expressing our dissatisfaction with Maher's support of murdering 100,000 Iraqi civilians. I think it is YOU who needs to get over our disapproval of paying $300 billion for an election in Iraq.

[Selteri]

29. Dude, get over yourself

and stop assuming that I in any way support these wars for power.

[George 2]

14. if he adopts neo-con positions, then he's a neo-con

it doesn't matter if he "slams everyone"

he's not slamming the iraq invasion and he didn't slam our Vietnam invasion and he didn't slam our Central America invasions

"one or two points" that are about war and peace and mass murdering millions (Vietnam was 2 million by itself) Third World people are a lot more important that if he's for decriminalizing pot

ok, he's a libertarian neo-con pothead.

does that make you feel better?

[Selteri]

33. 1 decision does not a neo-con make

He was against the war for quite a while on his show. I watched how quickly people turned on him when he said that the war had surprisingly brought democracy there.

I don't agree with him and think he's making a misjudgement, but he still makes some good points.

I don't agree with him and don't have to, but I'll defend his right without being labeled a 'traitor' or 'unamerican' or even 'Neo Con'.

Again, I say - Get over yourselves, freedom of opinion and speach goes both ways, don't let us become like the enemies of our own rights in trying to stop their insurgence. It only causes infighting and gives them more power.

[goodboy]

11. he also said that the bushies don't share any similarity

with the nazis, which I completely disagree with. They may not be nazi's per se, but they're certainly Proto-Fascists.

[wookie294]

13. He also said Chomsky was wrong to say the war is illegal

Even Bush's architect for the war -- Richard Perle -- said the war is illegal. Here's what he said....

"I think in this case international law stood in the way of doing the right thing."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1089158,00.html

[FreedomAngel82]

19. Hence making it illegal

[spanone]

15. ...Another entertainer looking for ratings anywhere he can find them.

[zanne]

96. That's right, spanone.

Bill Maher, Dennis Miller, Jon Stewart, Ann Coulter...they're one and the same. They're all taking advantage of political shifts and preaching to the choir--that's where the money is.

[tabasco]

16. Let Maher carry his candy-ass over to Baghdad ...

and walk around the streets. When he does that, then he can tell me everything is going great over there. He's a spineless puke,
which he showed after 9-11. Screw him. Just another whore for the almighty dollar.

[wookie294]

21. Somebody tell Maher about this....

Yeah, things are "looking up" in Iraq. LOL!

---

Insurgents Seize 60 Hostages in Iraqi Town

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Sunni guerrillas took at least 60 people hostage in an Iraqi town near Baghdad on Friday and threatened to kill them unless Shi'ites left the area, a Shi'ite official quoted residents as saying.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&e=5&u=/nm/20050415/ts_nm/iraq_dc

[lala_rawraw]

22. But Wes, God he was good...

He took on Frum who did nothing but stammer and lie. I guess there are no "practice sessions" here so that Frum can seem "factual". He lied to the point of obscenity.

That said, I do not think Maher is a Neo-Con by any means. He is simply a ratings kind of guy, although I do think of him as a Libertarian more than anything else. I do not agree with his current "some props for your boy" mantra to be sure. But I think we have to call things and people by their proper names...

NeoCons are a very specific segment of the far right with a very specific agenda, PNAC. He, is not a NeoCon by any measure.

[wookie294]

24. But Libertarians don't believe in being "World Policeman"

Most Libertarians disagree with the Iraq war, which leads me to believe Maher is not a Libertarian. I agree with you that Maher is actually just a "ratings guy," meaning he's the same kind of person who helped push for this bogus war since it provided a good TV show.

[lala_rawraw]

30. He does disagree with the war...

He is "hoping" that it will turn out well and suggesting that it may. He is not "supporting" the war at all nor the reasons given. It is more of a "we are here now, so what do we do" take.

My problem with him is I see no reason that hoping for the best and giving kudos to Bush need to be related. If Democracy does take hold there (and remember, the cultural, religious, etc.. value system is not one that supports a democracy or at least the US version of Democracy) then it would be a great thing, but it would not be BECAUSE of Bush, but by a miracle DESPITE Bush.

The other problem I have is that he does not address the very real issues of "voting in Iraq" in exchange for food rations or that the success in Afg. is now in its heroin. He does not mention torture, rape, death flights via a pretty jet. He just says the word democracy without realizing that with that word and the concept of freedom that America is delivering, we are at the same time proving the argument in the wrong direction by acting against those very principles... in short, we say one thing, but do another. That is my problem with him. His hubris makes no room for the complexity of this or the cultural relativism.

[wookie294]

34. He said it looks like this war was a good idea

He said on CNN - "maybe a president is forced to lie to Americans" in order to "free people" of foreign nations. He DOES support the war.

[lala_rawraw]

40. He is speculating, but I do not see anything other than...

"maybe" and "maybe" is always just that, which is fine...read the rest of my post though, not just the sentence in the subject because this is more complex than that.

[wookie294]

42. He backtracked a few weeks later by saying "maybe"

He's one of those guys who doesn't want to be tagged with the word "liberal." He's like that dork Anderson Cooper on CNN. Many people in media are terrified of being labeled "liberal." Ironically, such fear makes them "the liberal WIMP" they so desperately want to shed from their persona.

[lala_rawraw]

69. Anderson Vanderb...

Poor Rich kid is a weather boy who offers little of value so he need not worry about labels. Maher is more complex (see my above posts). I do not agree (see above posts) with his views, but he is not a NeoCon philosophically or in any other way (see above posts... read whole thing).

[madfloridian]

48. Bill Maher is quite happy about Iraq.

One week he excused the deaths of Iraqi civilians saying Saddam would have killed them anyway. This is the 3rd time I have heard him spewing the lies that things are going well there.

We are destroying cities, killing innocents, and he is smirking about it. He is off for good.

[wookie294]

53. In 2002, Saddam executed just as many people as Saudi Arabia

Saddam's killing machine was over by 1992. In 2001, Amnesty International said “Hundreds of political prisoners and detainees are executed in Iraq every year.”

Hundreds???? If you listen to Bush or Maher, you'd think "thousands" or "millions" were being executed by Saddam each year. In fact, it was HUNDREDS, probably less than the people executed by Saudi Arabia.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE140042001?open&of=ENG-IRQ

[FreedomAngel82]

67. Maher has said on his show

that if Bush plainly came out and said they were going there to give them "freedom" he would be supporting it and everything. Nobody wants things to end up bad (like they already aren't :eyes: ) but you have international laws you have to abide by. You can't police the world and just go into a country and take out their leadership based on lies and let choas and death happen. Nobody would like it if France, Germany, Russia etc. did it here.

[Benno]

109. Agree with you totally

I still don't see Maher as a neocon at all. His new take on Iraq is flawed and he doesn't seem to be doing his homework, at least not paying attention to the news coming out of Iraq. Iraq is still very unstable, not to mention that there is very little news reporting of whats really going on over there, other than what the government censored news tells us.

As for the neocon label, its just flat out wrong. What I see here on DU is people jumping on the bandwagon when one person spouts one particular issue out that Maher brought up. Did any of you actually watch the whole show? He is a comedian and he also is looking to cause debate among his panel he has on (which is almost always 2/3 lefties). That being said, if you want to label him a neocon and say hes been sipping the kool-aid and all that, by all means go right ahead. But in my opinion thats being short-sighted.

[Selteri]

41. No, he was publically against the war

over and over again until very recently where he said it seemed... blah blah blah. He's wrong, IMHO, but don't rewrite history for your attacks please. We don't need to start acting like the republicans we all know and fear.

[tsuki]

91. Forgive me, I forget the exact quote, I was too busy falling off

my chair laughing, but when the General said, if you want assault weapons, there is a place for you, we'll give you three squares, a pair of boots and you can shoot your weapon all you want, I thought he was spot on. (Take that you bunch of NeoCon paramilitary types that dress in your cammo and play soldier in the woods on week-ends in your multi-million dollar retreats.)

And his comment on gays in the military was good also.

As for Bill Maher, I don't always agree with him, but his new rules about Nazis was funny.

[stepnw1f]

99. Frum Got His Ass Handed to Him

all the guy did was talk in "circles", fillibustering his wait out of arguments with dead air. This tactic of the right is really getting old.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

113. Yes, Wes!

He was great. I thought his golf jokes were a little giddy, but, hey, the guy was having fun. Watching him watch that asswipe Frum and then start telling him why he was wrong made me ache with desire to have him run again.

I deep down don't think he will, but, man, how I wish he would.

He speaks with such determined authority. I didn't realize how much I missed that in a leader.

Notice how Frum never looks up, never makes eye contact? Gee, even weasels look around once in a while, but not that guy. And the idea that he and Perle are shilling yet another book sure to be ground into pulp makes me wonder who thinks people would actually read their crap.

I don't know that Maher has any particular political philosophy. Whores such as he are usually paying attention to other things .............

[Ruffhowse]

23. Maher's one reason I won't subscribe to HBO. He likes his $$$

over any principled position. Someone is throwing money his way to turn righty on us, and he's greedy enough to buy into the deal.

[Selteri]

37. Now that I will _fully_ agree with

He is a greedy jerk, he charges an assload for giving a speach at any rally even if he supports that cause.

[EFerrari]

28. Bill Maher is an entertainer, not a politician.

Which gives you a big fat choice.

And, in case you haven't noticed, MoveON is convulsing.

Imho, this black n white thinking just has to go. Maher says something you don't agree with and he's a con?

Isn't that what we're trying to change?

/friday typing

[wookie294]

32. He's not a "Con" - he's a "NeoCon"

Neocons are "bleeding heart conservatives." They want to "free" the world of "evil" as defined by NeoCons. And they want to free the world with YOUR ever-declining tax dollar. America cannot afford to police the world while competing with low-wage Chinese labor, but since it's profitable for Halliburton and defense contractors, we are forced to waste dollars being "policeman." Hence: rising deficits.

[EFerrari]

36. I think you are replying to a different post?

Or, maybe I'm not reading you aright.

The Neos print a lot of cr2p to justify their predations. They don't believe a word of it but make sure we do. :)

So, don't discount the "con" in "neocon".

B.

[Selteri]

35. Thank you, it's nice to see a voice of reason other than me.

This labeling is way out of line and only shows that apparently we have just as many blind attack dogs.

It's as if I were to be attacked for saying I agreed with the words Cheney said when he said "Freedom means freedom for everyone." He just didn't get that it also includes this country having the freedom to have a divergent opinion.

[EFerrari]

38. We're all suffering from political PTSD

We're reactive as hell and until we jump back, won't get any where. This may have been planned or unplanned, but imo, here we are.

On the other hand, my partner is a professional comedian, so maybe my viewpoint is just warpy?

:silly:

[Selteri]

45. Hehe, maybe that's part of why I'm so accepting of people

I'm an artist who jumps around as much as Leonardo Da'Vince did in mediums...

I'm just nowhere near as gifted as he was.

[EFerrari]

50. (Shhhhhhhhhh! It's a good thing, lol :)

And, ahem, it's not up to us to be our own critics? Why not just do what we do, and let the chips fall?

:hi:

[Selteri]

57. I'd rather be my own worst critic.

If I want to be a neurotic perfectionist who can't ever live up to his own expectations, well then...

wait...

errr....


I'm still a perfectionist and I still think my work could get a lot better. ;)

At least it helps me keep striving to become better, hard to compete with yourself and I know it.

[wookie294]

59. Don't be a perfectionist, just be honest

Bush lied. Maher wants to shed his image as being a "liberal." Do you?

[EFerrari]

64. Hmm. Sounds like we were separated at birth.

But, I'm still trying to entertain that chips falling thing.

Be well,
b.

[wookie294]

39. You should stop being hung-up on labels

People generally understand the word "neoCon" to mean a "bleeding heart conservative" who wants to spend billions of YOUR dollars to make more money for Halliburton and big business. You're being petty by whining about labels. You should start asking yourself "WHY does Bill Maher support Bush's bullshit war?" The answer: ratings.

[EFerrari]

43. No.

I don't agree with the general reading of the word "neocon". If you believe what they say about themselves, you haven't been paying attention to what they do.

It's not "petty" to "whine" about labels. Labels are how Americans abosorb information.

And, it's a little silly to expect AN ENTERTAINER not to mind his ratings.

Sheeeeeeeesh.

[wookie294]

49. Labels

Okay, I won't assume certain things when somebody says "I'm a Republican." And I won't assume certain things when somebody says "I'm a Nazi." And I won't assume certain things when someone says "I'm a communist." LOL.

C'mon. Labels are approriate, though I agree they don't tell the whole story. Stop acting like we must "shed ourselves of labels." I'm sick of people wasting time on this argument.

Maher has expressed some support for the bullshit war and for the neoCons. He should be condemned for that.

[EFerrari]

52. If you feel you have the luxury of condemning people

for a one issue opinion, you are certainly entitled to do so.

I just don't think it's good ecomonics or good politics. :)

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

LOL! n/t

[wookie294]

58. Explain n/t

[Selteri]

65. That came from left field.

Bush sure seems to have messed up on a lot more than just 1 issue. 1 issue I could handle, he's messed up on EVERY issue.

Killed the Stock Market

Wrapped himself in the Flag while burning the constitution

PLanned for the Iraq War before he was President

Announced he'd use Iraqi oil to fund his war

Destroyed non-standard education

destroyed civil rights and liberties

atacked states rights

violated the constitution...


it's really a long list.

[Selteri]

63. But you assumed things from one single item of disagreement

But if you think labels are so apropriate then...

You are a radical monocromatic uninformed reactionary.

Don't like it, eh?

If someone says they are a republican I take it as they are in a position of ignorance.

If someone tells me they are a Nazi I take it that they are a Monocromatic Hate Machine.

When someone tells me they're a communist, I ask if they mean a hippy communist or a chinese communist for a qualifier.

[wookie294]

66. You're DAMN RIGHT I'm a reactionary

Your president LIED to you, murdered 100,000 Iraqi civilians and spent $300 billion on Iraq so he could win the 2002 midterm elections. And you think I'm just going to be "all cuddly and liberal" about it. FUCK NO!

If Maher supported the flat tax (which I don't support) I would not condemn him. But the Iraq issue is HUGE. It's not a little issue. Anybody who supports this bullshit war should be condemned, just as the Nazis were condemned. Abu Ghraib is the TRUE FACE of America's military. Don't support it. CONDEMN IT.

[Selteri]

68. You seem to be so full of vitrol that you don't listen

past black and white.

Thank you for proving my point though, it's always nice.

[EFerrari]

70. On edit: DU has a lot of great features. If we disagree so much

that we can't talk to each other, there's "ignore", thread hiding and just plain turning off the machine.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wookie294]

73. I never put people on ignore

I like to hear the views of conservatives -- even the ones on this thread who pretend to be "liberal."

[frictionlessO]

112. Hey that was not cool.... SFexpat and Selteri are not cons!

I'm not much of a Maher fan, except for when he says things I agree with (at least Im honest about it!) or when he's truly just being funny without cannibalizing someone elses work (which is a tough thing to do in any creative medium).

That doesn't mean that anyone holding a differing view than your own or mine is a con!

Also I think you'd find in both these DU'ers powerful allies against pre-emptive wars and US protofascist imperialism.

These are people who will fight WITH you against this admin, dont try to hurt them with not so subtle vitriol.

[Selteri]

74. Perhaps, hard to tell. I wasn't baiting, merely making a point

that the words chosen to express are not in conjunction with the words Bill Maher used.

He's making a statement in a monohromatic fashion when the world isn't Black and white or even shades of gray, but bright, potentially vivid, color.

When someone takes a statement that 'maybe' the war might have been right for the wrong reasons as support is small minded.

Hearing what you want to have an excuse to claim a much farther stance than what is expressed is nothing short of deceptive.

Just as Bill said tonight that he was amazed that the troops seem to love him in SPITE of how poorly he treats them.

Or for instance labeling him a Neo-con when he attacked Delay rather blatenly and savagely with his little pre-mercial.

If someone were to say that "I watched the show today and he was constantly pro Bush." is quite honestly, a blatant lie.

He's an entertainer who likely does have to answer to his bosses, he DID get fired for making a comment about 9-11 that I personally do agree with and has rarely been so blind to agree with what the Resident in Thief has done in any aspect.

There are some democrats who agree with the war, they're rare, but they happen, it doesn't mean they buy into the rest of the Neo-Con job.

[wookie294]

75. I'm convinced the war WILL NEVER be justified

Even if Iraq becomes a democracy that we agree with, I will NEVER think killing tens of thousands (or 200,000) was justified. I remember protesting apartheid in South Africa, but nobody called for an invasion of the country. We don't need to kill thousands in order to make the world in America's image. If we succeed in Iraq, America will be LESS SAFE. A victory in Iraq will mean Americans will think we are justified in invading other countries and killing more people, thereby making ourselves more likely to be killed by terrorists.

The Arab world can reform itself without America's military.

[Selteri]

81. On that I agree

There is no justification for the war, there hasn't been a justification for any of the wars this country has been in since 1945 when we ended out part in the second world war. With one exception, I thought the invasion of Afghanistan was a questionable thing and still reserve judgement on it, though I felt our go it alone attitude afterwards was foolhardy and stupid, especially as China had offered us a shockingly high number of troops (I believe they said in the UN that they'd be willing to send 1 million troops because they lost people too).

We _ARE_ less safe and we _ARE_ going to get retribution for our actions, these people are terrorists because they know they can't stand up against us, they use cowardly tactics because those are least work. They use terror as a weapon because it's really the only weapon they have. On 9-11 they won because Bush let them with how he reacted by stripping liberties to offer an illusion of safety. Those who support those actions deserve neither.

[EFerrari]

76. That's right. I misspoke, apologize to the thread and

tried to mend my error.

These are difficult times. We're going to have to be patient with each other.

[wookie294]

71. Black and white???

If you're not outraged and reactionary about Bush, then you're asleep. Anger is a good thing. Intellectual liberals need to stop acting like anger is "immature." Anger is what makes change. I'd bet a guy like you would tell Rosa Parks to stop being so "angry" and to sit in the middle of the bus instead of the front because it's the "good and peaceful thing" to do.

[Selteri]

77. Anger isn't a good thing, it's a thing with good and bad sides.

I am outraged about Bush.

I am not reactionary, I THINK before I act, Bush doesn't.

Anger without direction is immmature and dangerous, labeling people with such hatred for a single disagreement is immature.

I wouldn't have told Rosa Parks not to be Angry, but that is also a very different situation.

If you are against good and peace though, you really are in the wrong party. The warmongers are over there in their brown shirts claiming that we're attacking them.

-=-=-=-=-=-

Now on a personal level, since you have opted to attack me I'll ask you a few questions and if you don't answer them with a Yes then you need to STFU.

Have you attended a single protest?

Did you even try to help with the recount efforts in Ohio or Florida?

Have you offered your services to your Democratic party?

Did you even VOTE in the last election?

Have you donated to either party or candidated?

Have you written to your politicians I E Congresspeople, State or Local to express your views?

I have, so if you want to accuse me of being a wishy washy wimp who'd stand by and tell Rosa to sit in the middle of the bus; then, you are not only ignorant, you're a freaking moron, I'd have stood up so she could have my seat wherever the freak I was sitting.

[EFerrari]

79. We could really use your help over here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3476986&mesg_id=3476986


Might be a bit more satisfying.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

44. He's an ignorant asshat who stumbles on a good point occasionally

that's all he is.

[Roxy66]

46. I wish the "Dixie Chick" would get more time to talk....I love those guys

[EFerrari]

55. Exactly. And this "neocon" put her on. n/t

[wookie294]

56. FOR RATINGS ONLY, n/t

[Roxy66]

60. Natalie is making some great points!!

[EFerrari]

61. She really did. Blonde, beautiful AND progressive! n/t

[blindpig]

95. and some bad ones

I liked those ladies for the stand they made and was looking forward to hearing what she had to say, which was ok at first. But when she started yammering about about firearms she went off the rails, gross inaccuracies falling over each other. We don't need that.

I am not a big 2nd Amendment proponent but I do work for a FFL holder and know what I'm talking about.

[tallahasseedem]

47. I found this link for more information...

http://www.answers.com/topic/bill-maher

Maybe he needs to raise funds to pay off his ex-girlfriend.

[Roxy66]

51. Go Sen. Boxer!!

[jdj]

62. Gannon must be sucking that thing just right. n/t

[G_j]

78. child malnutrition has doubled in Iraq, did you miss that Bill?

Why not try to justify rape & torture while you are at it?

[EFerrari]

82. As a comedy writer and a partner to a comedian

I just don't copy you at all.

Have you EVER tried to put a set together? Have you EVER interviewed ANYONE? Have you ever had to juggle your professional life to include your political values?

All the pros I know try to weave in as many of these issues as possible. Because they're 95% of them on our side.

So, Maher said something you disagree with and you're talking about RAPE AND TORTURE?

Wow. Just, wow.

[G_j]

83. we are talking about the war are we not?

and his assertion that the ends may in part justify the means because of the elections?
Or did i miss something?

[EFerrari]

84. We're watching him through two different "filters"

as far as I can tell.

And, given that I'm the one on the block with the anti-war signs in my windows, this is a waste of your energy and mine.

That doesn't answer your question. Not trying to fudge that.

B.

On edit: I think he tries to be fair. I don't agree with him on many issues but he puts Whoopi Goldberg on, Wes, Boxer. That's not an accident. Bill could get anyone on his show. Maybe, just notice his choices?

And, you didn't answer any of my questions.

/friday typing.

[G_j]

85. for clarity

I didn't realize you had asked a question but let me explain why I used the terms "rape" and "torture".

At least as far as rape goes, nobody will attempt to justify this under any circumstances. Yet many people attempt to justify this war, which is what I think Bill has begun to do at least partially.
Rape and torture have always been apart of war, and there is evidence that they have been a part of this war. I just find a tremendous disconnect there.

I simply find this particular slant of his upsetting, though I don't think a 'crucification' is in order. :-)

regardless, lets just keep working to change the terrible war mentality and find better ways to live in the world. I know we see that through the same filter.
peace, G_j

[EFerrari]

86. You got it. And thank you for your graciousness.

I disagree with Bill on a truckload of things.

And my published opinion is that we should have been out of Iraq yesterday.

I agree with you on the realities of war.

We can stop it and we will. Check out this action that some DUers are putting together:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3476986

cheers,
Beth

[G_j]

87. thanks

I am definately onboard with this. Thanks for the heads up!

at least I know this much, there are people committed to peace everywhere on this planet and we will never give up.

[EFerrari]

88. Thank you.

I've only been on DU since shortly after the election. And, I'm very grateful to you all for the daily reality check.

And we will never give up :)

B.

[G_j]

89. glad you found DU

Like so many others, I experience anger and frustration over what has been happening, passions and emotions run high, but we also try very hard to get to the truth.

[EFerrari]

92. Got it. Our house is in the same shape.

So, let's shut it down.

No one else will. It's our challenge.

It won't be easy and it will require more from us than we can easily give.

We have to know that, going in. And then, we have to be willing to suffer all kinds of things. Every thing between disagreement from friends and blows from police.

This is what we will be up against.

I love this country. Love its courage, its willingness to go with the new. To imagine better.

But, my country has been hijacked by criminals. (Hear that, agent Mike?) So, my task is to notice that and to resist the coup. And to accept that this is now, our moment in history.

B.

[G_j]

93. our moment and our responsibility too

because knowing what we know, we can't hide our eyes.

I wish there were a few million people brave enough to take part in a tax revolt. How else are we going to cut Halliburton's purse strings? I don't think second term Bush cares what ppl think and he will continue to loot the store for all it is worth.
It is hard to know what to do. I have protested locally, been to DC, written so many letters, made so many calls and yet they just keep enabling the crooks & thugs. I realize that all these things add up, help to educate others and plant seeds that may still bear fruit.
The least we can do is continue to chip away at the lies and educate our fellow citizens.
:-)

[frictionlessO]

115. Ahhhh very well done you two! This was a good example fo all of us

as far as remembering we are allied in our determination to bring down the neocon empire. At least for the most part... anyways sub threads like this always make DU look good and the posters even better.

too cool....

[EFerrari]

116. Hey, their best weapon is turning us against each other.

And that won't work. Because we're the folks that value inclusion, diversity, creativity.

Wouldn't it be nice if we just got comfy with that idea? Instead of always reacting into their false dilemmas?

lol

B.

[madfloridian]

100. Maher excused the Iraqi civilian deaths very distinctly.

He has no qualms about this so-called war. He as much as said if we had not killed them, Saddam would have done so. That is inexcusable. Totally wrong thing to say.

I don't watch Dennis Miller because he is offensive. I also now find Bill Maher offensive. It is personal taste partly, but it is shame he parrots the right wing talking points on Iraq.

[EFerrari]

114. Maybe I really did miss something here. What did he say?

I was too busy watching the obviously gay Frum defend "don't ask, don't tell" which pretty much makes life in the military HELL for gay folk. It just blew me away.

[Walt Starr]

94. It's MILLER time

I said it before and I'll say it again, Maher has Millered himself. I don't watch the whore any more.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

97. yep, except one disturbing fact

Maher is actually capable of being funny, which actually makes it kind of a loss.

[The Blue Knight]

101. Maher never claimed to be a Democrat.

Besides, if he was a neocon, he wouldn't invite Barbara Boxer & General Clark to his show.

[Akoto]

106. Give me more Jon Stewart any day.

As much as it's supposed to be a humorous look at the world's news (and at least they admit they're a "fake" news show), I think I get more facts out of Jon Stewart and the Daily Show than anything else.

[JVS]

107. Where is Friedman's fucking Lexus and Olive Tree now?!?!?!

Bullshitter extraordinare

[Generator]

108. My .02 on Maher

I've been watching him since Politically Incorrect first started on Comedy Central. I just remembered the apt I lived in at the time and that would put it at '92-'93.

Anyhoo- Bill has never changed.

He's a sexist pig. But as a woman, sometimes he makes me really mad, and other times I laugh my arse off.

He's always been a HAWK. Big pro-military, pro-war.-Disagree on that.

Always been pro-liberation of drugs.-I agree on that.

Big animal rights guy-did you know that? Another area I don't agreee with him completely on.

I think his monologues-his jokes suck. I never thought he was that funny and I usually fast forward through those bits.

I think (here's the clincher) he's just not that well informed. Or maybe just not that bright? I notice many times his guest know much more about an issue than he does.

But still, he says the things no one else does. And he allows a forum for people to speak that almost no one else does.

He is extremely anti-religion and I agree 200 milion percent with him there. I just said to my husband watching him last night, I can't even say what I want about religion on DU. It's too "radical." And Bill is the only one saying that religion is the cause of what's really wrong with the planet. So there. He's a free speech zone I appreciate. Even if I don't agree with his stupid and simplistic rationale about Iraq, I think religion is the four billion pound elephant on the planet.

[Benno]

110. Agreed.

When his new season started and he began his rant on how Iraq may have been a good idea. I was thinking: What the fuck? The only news I had seen lately was car bombings, suicide bombings.. basically people still being killed or wounded from the resistance in Iraq. One of his points about Iraq moving along so well is that damnable election they had. Which I thought was a complete joke, considering the people didn't really have any idea who was on the ballot. And the fact that an election does not make a democracy, but I do suppose its a first step.

Anyway I definitely agree that he seems uninformed, and possible just stupid. But alone his anti-religion stance I would think would have a positive affect on people here at DU, but I guess not.

[orpupilofnature57]

117. Not Neo-con, but Neo-comedian, like Jon Stewart has paid his dues, bill

Shit's on stupidity {shrubs} most of all, so let's put away the tar and feathers.