Any religious lefties listening to Randi?

[Ladyhawk]

I think she has a real point. The Republicans are trying to own religion. As an atheist, I don't feel qualified to take them on. Luckily, progressives try to embrace everyone, regardless of creed, color, etc. Well, at least in theory, they do.

Can any of you tell me what news from the religious front? I can't help you, but I am still convinced this battle must be fought. I wish the religious left had an outlet like AAR and eventually, relgious television, not so much to convert the religious right, but to present a unified front so people realize that Republicans don't own religion.

In the meantime, we need to learn to get along with one another. I admit it has been hard for me at times. :(

[cheezus]

1. where is everyone getting those southpark characters from?

i want one!

[Hatalles]

4. From here...

http://www.planearium2.de/flash/spstudio.html

[Ian David]

62. Thanks for the Southpark Studio link!

We have to save Traditional Marriage! Crusade! Crusade!

[Ladyhawk]

20. Isn't it fun as hell? :) I had to make a new one...

...to match my changing hair.

Yes, Ladyhawk, Dark Lord of the Sith and EVIL ATHEIST...with her teddy bear. :)

[FreedomAngel82]

29. Cute

I love teddy's. I still have mine. :D

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Ok I am not particularly religious

but... I have been using scripture. They own religioun becuase they think they know it. I have found proper areas of the bible to use... for instance the whole line about there is a time to be born and a time to die, this is not a song.. it is biblical scripture.

Once you start using it, they balk

[Hatalles]

5. I think this is the best way to do it...

To use religion against them just as well. Slogans like "Jesus was a liberal" are also pretty catchy. :)

[Bellamia]

17. Jesus was a Liberal

and not only that, he was a Jew, not a Chrisitan. I don't think he'd recognize himself in any of the bigoted, predjuced "Christians" who supposedly follow him.

[DoYouEverWonder]

13. I could probably clear a roomful of xians

in about 5 minutes.

Having attended 12 years of RC schools, I've gone through the training I suppose?

Lately, my favorite thing to do is put these little cards on fundies' cars or leave them in the Left Behind section of the bookstore.

[Ladyhawk]

21. Have a link? I've been annoyed by all the cars around here...

...with bumper stickers that proclaim Bush-love and Christianity, simultaneously.

[DoYouEverWonder]

27. Here ya go

?click

The link is a sheet with 4 images on the page. Just cut them apart and have fun.

[kliljedahl]

45. Is that your graphic?

I like it. Nice work.


Keith’s Barbeque Central

[DoYouEverWonder]

56. Yes

Thank you

[proud2BlibKansan]

51. I would start up a Holy Card collection again

if they looked like that. LOL

[DoYouEverWonder]

57. Here's one more that I've made

I'm also open to ideas for more.

[proud2BlibKansan]

58. That is awesome

I may print that one out as well.

[FreedomAngel82]

30. What about abortion though?

I've tried debating them with that and I just get stuck. Basically all I tell them with that is how God gave us freewill to make choices and deal with the consequences and not everybody believes what they do. Hasn't worked yet though.

[phylny]

35. The only thing I can think of to rebut is what I say to people about

abortion.

I could never personally have an abortion (although if I were 17 and pregnant, I might think twice about that belief), but I think all medical decisions are between individuals and their physician. I cannot make a moral judgment for anyone else, and I support legal abortions because people have the right to make private medical decisions without outsiders interfering.

FYI, I also support teaching sex education, complete with accurate info on contraceptives, to make sure young people are truly educated and safe in every respect.

My grandmother (who is now 95 years old) told me many times that "They don't know what it was like back then before abortion was legal. Women were butchered, they were killed, they became sterile. There has been abortion since the beginning of time, and there always will be abortion, so keep it legal."

I am pro-choice because I want people to have the right to make their own choices based upon their own beliefs.

[Ladyhawk]

43. Even as an atheist, I have misgivings about the abortion issue.

I can't believe a zygote is a human being, but I think the fetus is human at some point before birth. The argument that makes sense to me is that everyone seems to have a different opinion as to when life begins, so it's best to leave such a choice to the woman.

As for fundies, go to the Bible. There's a verse about a man hitting a woman and causing a miscarriage. The punishment is not as strict as it is for killing a person; therefore, the Bible acknowledges the difference between an unborn child and a living person. Jesus never discussed the issue.

Exodus 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

The Skeptic's Annotated Bible says this on the subject: "If two men fight and cause a woman to miscarry, but do not hurt her, then the one who hurt her shall pay her husband an amount determined by the judges. Only if the woman dies is the punishment to be death. Apparently, then, with respect to abortion, God is pro-choice since he considers a woman's life to be more important that that of the fetus."

[jbm]

63. I can shut them up on that one..

The debate between when life begins and all that stuff is a waste of time, cause if you feel women should have the right to choose..vote liberal. If you feel that life is alwways sacred and you want to bring an end to abortions..still vote liberal cause what we know is that abortion rates don't correlate to laws, they correlate to social policies, economic well-being, access to contraceptives, and education.

Don't let them drag you into some meaningless debate about when life begins..it is irrelevant to the discussion. IF they want to reduce abortion,(and who doesn't) THEN they should support liberalism. Otherwise they're just full of shit and mouthing nonsense.

[shoelace414]

3. Jesus was a liberal

[FreedomAngel82]

31. They'd say other wise

I'm sure. They don't like the idea of Jesus being one of us "hethen" democrats.

[thecorster]

60. God doesn't belong to a politcal party

he's not a democrat and he's certainly not a republican.

[ChickMagic]

6. Religious moderates and liberals

must speak out about the zealots taking over this country. They are the only people that have any basis for authority. You and I can talk until we're blue in the face, but we'll be written off as disgruntled atheists.

The sane religious people must speak out and soon!

[Tux]

8. More of Jim

We need more Jim Wallis' but from other religions and other sects of Christianity. The more they speak out, the more people may listen. However, Evangelicals wanting to exeucute kids who commited crimes might just be a weakness especially with the culture of life and family values rants they use.

[Amy6627]

10. I post this whenever I get the chance. Liberals and "Real" Christians

should be allies, we want the same things! Government out of our religion (and vise-vera), social justice, protecting human rights, promoting peace and tolerance. Here is a great website:

http://liberalslikechrist.org/churchstate/index.htm

[RedEarth]

11. Here's one sane religious person that did speak out....

...we just need more people like Jan Linn and Jim Wallis to let America know that Christianity is being hijacked by the Christian Right......the Falwell's of the world do not represent the views of liberal Christians.

Published on Saturday, October 19, 2002 in the Minneapolis Star Tribune
Falwell and His 'Christian Right' Have It Wrong
by Rev. Jan Linn et al

Falwell and His 'Christian Right' Have It Wrong
by Rev. Jan Linn et al

Enough is enough. When Jerry Falwell declares on national television that Mohammed was a terrorist and Christians believe there will be no peace in Jerusalem until the second coming of Jesus, the time for silence on such religious arrogance is over.

Put bluntly, the Christian right that Falwell represents is neither.

It is not Christian in attitude or actions because both represent what Jesus spoke and acted against. Those who lead the Christian right are the Pharisees of today's Christianity. They play the role of moral and thought police, condemning to hell anyone whose actions they consider wrong and whose views are different from their own. Their religiosity runs a mile wide but their spirituality is an inch deep.

............

Through the years we have tried to ignore this man and others like him who are an embarrassment to many of us who claim the Christian tradition as our own. But their views have won a large following among Christians who either refuse to think for themselves or who have been duped into believing that Christian right leaders speak from understanding.

They don't. Their views represent religious prejudice that draws lines in the sand that separate people into opposing camps and sow the seeds of hatred, suspicion and war.

Those of us who are the Christians whom the Christian right loves to hate have been silent for too long. In the name of tolerance we have allowed Christianity's most radical believers to turn faith into a cover for self-righteousness and love into a sword for divisiveness. It is little wonder that Christianity is in decline in America.

http://www.commondreams.org/cgi-bin/print.cgi?file=/views02/1019-03.htm

Jan Linn has also written a book called "What's Wrong With The Christian Right". I'm currently reading it and for those interested
here's a link for a free download of the first 25 pages of his book "What's Wrong With The Christian Right.

http://www.universal-publishers.com/book.php?method=ISB...

[ChickMagic]

12. I love to hear about that

My hubby is a sane Christian and I'm an atheist. He and I are both trying to do our part to speak truth to the stranglehold. As a Christian, my hubby is in a much better place to make a difference. He keeps being told that he's going to hell along with me.

[RedEarth]

14. Don't listen to their crap....they spew hatred and divisiveness

Show your husband the article and download the first 25 pages of Linn's book.....it might provide him some ammunition as well as some peace of mind. Also, visit some other sites people have posted in this thread.

[Ladyhawk]

23. Excellent points...but all of them would be ignored coming from me. :D nt

[kliljedahl]

48. Is it a bad link or has it exceeded bandwidth?

Keith’s Barbeque Central

[Jamastiene]

52. This one has the right idea.

Maybe we could organize and find all the editorials we can similar to that and start a "letters of agreement" type campaign to show support. If we managed to get them into the mainstream, we could then lay a double helping of supportive feedback on the msm anytime they let them speak.

[Ladyhawk]

22. I agree. The fundies I know haven't been very nice to me...

...since they realized they couldn't re-convert me. Also, since I'm an out-of-the-closet atheist, they will not listen.

Some of the less radical ones might listen to SANE Christians. I think it's possible. When I went to a liberal Christian school, some of the professors got through to me. I took my own path, eventually--a path that recognizes no god. But not everyone has to follow my path. Isn't that what a free society is all about?

[Jamastiene]

50. Thank you.

I would say that if a Christian group was to try to get air time on either public acess cable channels or radio shows, they could do it with ease and have a pulpit to talk to the fundies who are looking for a more tolerant gathering point to worship. Obviously they exist. Compared to a nonreligious group or an alternative religious group who wouldn't be able to talk to those people as well. It could work.

[tinonedown]

7. It's hard for us

Take a look at the topics floating around in the general forum here.
It's like I'm standing in a room full of white people, talking about sorry black folk, and they don't see me standing behind them.
I don't have an answer.

[Ladyhawk]

24. It's true that relations between atheists and Christians haven't been...

...very good on DU. On some issues we can agree to disagree, I think. The larger issue is getting rid of dogmatists and the right wing.

I haven't joined in on the Christian vs. atheist threads because I don't think they're very productive. I'm sure I would disagree with the Christians in those threads, but who cares? We all want a better, more open government, don't we? Focusing on the important issues is better than having obnoxious flame wars about our personal views. Yes, I've been guilty of being obnoxious, too. But every time I think it over, I realize progressives need the religious left. Even after I get angry, I simmer down and come to the same conclusion.

[LittleClarkie]

9. I appreciate the gesture

I just called my Senator's office to let him know that there are indeed Christian Democrats, unlike what Sen. Frist said, and that we are with him and the other Democrats. All the Christians are NOT on the Republican side.

I'd never done that before. I sorta feel like I made a bit of an ass out of myself, but I needed to do something just then.

try www.catholicdemocrats.net if you want to see what a sane Christian looks like.

Meanwhile, I really do appreciate your post.

[FreedomAngel82]

32. Yes

I wrote my Senator who is Frist and told him I'm a Christian and don't appreciate him using my religion for his greedy self and he "wrote" back.

[Jamastiene]

53. That's the spirit.

I have left the Christian faith myself because I am surrounded by fundies, but I believe you have the power to change the trend toward right wing hate mongering by getting active like you did and by encouraging others to do it as well. I believe you have the faith and the power to make a positive change. Thank you for speaking out.

[Malva Zebrina]

15. When push comes to shove , it is up to the "real" Christians

to fight the so called "fake" Christians.

That means for me, an atheist--no conjoining, no politicking, no tirades or no trying to own women's bodies via the state, for "real" Christians--respect for the law, in other words. Respect for the laws of the country in which we live, instead of trying to usurp that law in order for a whole nation, and the women in it, to comply with the laws of their religion.

Big sounding treatises advocating rights for all human beings, do nothing if the organisation continues to deny women a place in the hierarchy and continues to believe it has the right over women's bodies and their health concerns.

Any one of them, "fake" or "real" that continues to press for the state to be in control of anyone's body, is wrong.

[Amy6627]

16. I just got on with Randi! I'm Amy from San Diego.

I promoted this website:

http://liberalslikechrist.org/churchstate/index.htm

[Ladyhawk]

18. Oh, it must have been you I heard. :)

Great job. You sounded passionate. Ray Dubuque (the guy who runs Liberals Like Christ) and I have had some good discussions. I respect him even though we don't agree on issues of religion.

[Amy6627]

36. Thank you! n/t

[alcuno]

19. I'm on a Catholic forum and it's rough sledding.

Of course, a lot of them are totally enamored with * and expect him to end abortion. But there are others. All the Catholics I know personally are probably liberal democrats so talking with the right wing of my faith is a real eye opener.

[FreedomAngel82]

33. They'll never get rid of abortion

Why? Because what else would they have to talk about?

[chicagiana]

59. Pretty much EVERY Catholic is a cafeteria Catholic ...

Catholics know how to pick and choose. You are pretty much BORN Catholic. That is your community. That is your family. You cannot CHOOSE your family. But you can choose whether or not to talk with parts of it.

Catholics tend to tolerate their familes and embrace just the parts they like. By contrast, I think that protestant communities in the US are a little more "choosy" about where they go. Hence, they tend to be more "adherent" to their adopted families (these attitudes are hereditary).

[Cleita]

25. I really think liberal Christians should start defining themselves

as Christ-like liberals, meaning they follow the teachings of Christ about loving your neighbor, not being judgemental, sharing your fish and loaves. I mean everything in the gospels that Christ preached is quite in sync with liberalism.

I even think non-Christians and atheists could call themselves Christ-like Democrats. One doesn't need to be a Christian to be Christ-like. I think Jesus's tale of the Good Samaritan points to his views on that.

[DoYouEverWonder]

26. self delete

[Ladyhawk]

28. I'm going to kick this in order to balance my anti-fundy threads.

I want it to be known that I don't equate all religion with the sick fundamentalism that poisons the souls of so many. Even though I am an atheist, I appreciate the need for a religious left and don't expect everyone to choose the same path I chose.

I will defend the path I chose, but I must learn to temper that with the realization that people are different and must choose different paths. Let kicking this thread be another reminder of that truth.

[RevCheesehead]

34. Wow, Ladyhawk - I really respect what you're doing.

I certainly hope that all of us can come together at DU and work for restoring progressive values to our society.

I have heard many times that as a Christian, I am the one who needs to speak out against the fundies. At first, that statement made me angry. Why? Because there is no united "Christian" anything - no centralized belief system, no common council. Most of the fundamentalist denominations have refused to participate in the World Council of Churches (WCC) or the National Council of Churches (NCC). If they won't even come to the table, how do we find common ground?

But in the last few weeks, I have come to change my mind about this issue. I stand in the middle - as one who understands the liberal ideals of Democrats, and one who understands the basic essentials of Christian theology. It's like being bi-lingual.

With great hesitation, I am willing to be someone who will work towards finding common ground. Obviously, that is an enormous task. Many people don't believe it can be done, but I say "how do you know, unless you try?"

However, if I stand in the middle, I'm going to need support from the Liberal Left. I'm going to need the support not only of other Christians, but also atheists and agnostics, because many of you have asked me to take on this role.

These are the things I need from my fellow DUers:

1. I need you to respect my faith and beliefs. No, I am not asking you to believe it. But when people here mock my faith, my beliefs, I want to quit. (If you don't respect me, why should I try to help you?) As a liberal Christian, I am asking all of you to respect a fellow Democrat, who is trying to make a difference.

2. I am a pastor (United Methodist), and because of that, I have a religious world-view. I interpret things through the lens of faith. That's just who I am, and like everyone else, I talk about things as they affect my everyday life. For me, there is no separation of church and state. I also think I have things to say that can positively contribute to the general discussion boards of DU. I simply ask that I be granted the same posting priveleges here as everyone else.

3. Politeness and respect are not uniquely Christian traits, or Democratic traits. But they are representative of the better side of human morality. Can we agree to play together nicely? And if you don't want to play, then please just ignore me.

Thanks again for your thoughtful posts. I truly appreciate the questions you are asking, because they are very important.

[quaker bill]

38. I do understand your point.

I have felt called to take on the role of Clerk of my Quaker Meeting. We have started to reach out to other like minded congregations with hopes of forming a local coalitions to work on issues of mutual concern. So far, we have been met with very positive responses.

[RevCheesehead]

39. And that's how it begins - -

one by one, pastors and churches coming together, to make a difference in the world.

Good luck to you, Bill.
BTW - if you haven't seen it yet, we have a group here: Christian Liberals and Progressive People of Faith. Please drop in! :)

[Ladyhawk]

41. Excellent. :) Thanks for caring. :) n/t

[Ladyhawk]

40. You're in a very difficult position of balancing personal

religious beliefs with political beliefs. Some atheists and agnostics--myself included--tend to get snarky with people of faith. I'm working on that, even questioning how to properly address the anger I feel toward fundies. There has to be a way to find balance in everything.

The truth is, the Democratic Party needs people of faith, maybe more than ever since Republicans are trying to hijack Christianity for their own purposes.

You said, "With great hesitation, I am willing to be someone who will work towards finding common ground. Obviously, that is an enormous task. Many people don't believe it can be done, but I say 'how do you know, unless you try?'"

It's an enormous undertaking. As a fundy, I was bullheaded and stubborn, refusing to give quarter to any other point of view, but slowly, little by little, other views must have affected how I perceived the world. I found my way out. Obviously, the path I chose is different from your path. I will defend my path; you will defend yours. The problem is realizing that different paths may lead to the same place: open, liberal values.

Somehow, non-religious people and religious people in the Democratic Party must realize we share common ground and common values and not get tangled up in the particulars of how we arrived at our conclusions. We may still disagree on a great deal, but a free society should allow dissenting views.

I admit that I have been upset with Christians on DU. No doubt some Christians have been upset with atheists...or even me, specifically. So, how do we walk hand-in-hand while maintaining open dialogue?

1. Respecting faith and beliefs. That's a hard one for some atheists who feel that basing beliefs on something that cannot be proven is dangerous territory. I'm trying to be honest, here, because I think only honesty will lead us to a better understanding. Perhaps many Christians think that relying upon empiricism is emotionally empty. It is.

In many ways, Star Trek, the original series, was ahead of its time. Spock was the unemotional one who considered only logic in his decisions. Bones relied almost entirely on emotion. Kirk tried to balance both in his decisions. Maybe that's what we need: balance.

I need to learn to respect your beliefs even though I don't necessarily believe the same way. It can be both a logical and emotional decision. I need to respect your beliefs because, logically, it would put us on better footing as allies and because, emotionally, it would ease our relationship with one another.

OK, I'm just talking out my ass here, but I understand your need to be respected.

2) Respect my religious world view. This one I am OK with, personally. Like I said, different paths may lead to the same destination. This one is a personal decision.

3) Politeness and respect. I absolutely agree. Sometimes we get caught up in flame wars and are very disrespectful to one another. Recently, I found myself being disrespectful to those espousing what I considered a tinfoil-hat conspiracy theory. Later I felt guilty, but by the time I had a change of heart, it was too late to modify my post. I ended up hurting some people.

So, if we are offended by something somebody says, perhaps we should give ourselves time to cool down before posting. If that fails, a late apology is better than nothing at all, don't you think? As progressives, we have the luxury of changing our minds on any issue because we think for ourselves. Rigidity is not progressive. It is conservative. Admitting mistakes is an important part of starting a new dialogue with one another.

I'm willing to reach out, once again, to the religious folks in the Democratic Party. I will try, once again, to respect your beliefs, respect your world view and be polite. If I fail, I will apologize.

Religious folks in the Democratic Party have my support, even though I am an atheist.

[RevCheesehead]

44. Thank you for a well-thought-out post.

I can wholeheartedly agree with what you're saying... and most especially the Star Trek reference! :)

What I'm hoping is that we can prove to the repukes that we will not be divided among ourselves. We have a common cause, and we have a progressive voice that needs to be heard.

Believe it or not, I do have atheist friends. The friends part happens because we value and respect one another. We just don't talk about our differences - we focus on what we have in common.

You're cool, Ladyhawk. I hope for peace and healing to come your way.

Cheese.

[Ladyhawk]

46. Thanks, RevCheesehead.

I could use some peace and healing. :) I think relationships between Christians and atheists here at DU could use some peace and healing, too. I'm willing to give it a try. :)

[RevCheesehead]

47. Awww - -

You can call me Cheese (it's less inflammatory; and I like cheese!)

[Jamastiene]

54. Fair enough, but I do have a suggestion that might help you.

If you try to look at the mocking that goes on here on DU from the standpoint of this is a wounded animal who feels cornered, you may be able to reach out better. Nevermind the fact that you disagree with what someone is saying about your religion. Think of it as not your version of the religion people are upset about. There are others on here who want you to succeed at fighting back the Falwells of this world. If you can look at any mocking posts from that standpoint and understand, you can begin to take on the role of a bridge builder a little easier.

And I believe you DO have the power and the faith to make the positive changes. Tammy Faye Bakker (Messner now, I think) would be a good one who already has recognition value to try to contact about organizing into a new movement in this country. I'd try my best to quit blaming all Christians for what the fundies do if you could get her to speak out for us and more importantly, I believe she would be able to give some of the best advice on just how to bridge the gap between atheists, agnostics, ex-Christians who are only ex-Christian because we are trapped amidst fundies, and other people of other faiths and bring all of us together before trying to take on the fundies directly. If not her, then maybe someone else who is well known.

I wonder if we could get a discussion started about maybe inviting her to a chat with us here on DU and bringing the idea up to her. I wonder how we could get in touch with her and if Skinner would think it would be a good idea.

I see the possibilities as unlimited if things are handled right. One step at a time may be the best approach. And as far as what people believe, I believe it CAN DEFINITELY be done. Isn't that what faith is?

[quaker bill]

37. Friends Committee on National Legislation

A Quaker Lobby in the Public Interest

We seek a world free of war and the threat of war
We seek a society with equity and justice for all
We seek a community in which every person's potential may be fulfilled
We seek an earth restored

http://www.fcnl.org/

The Friends Committee on National Legislation (FCNL) is a public interest lobby founded in 1943 by members of the Religious Society of Friends. FCNL seeks to bring the concerns, experiences and testimonies of Friends (called Quakers) to bear on policy decisions in the nation's capital. People of many religious backgrounds participate in this work. FCNL’s staff and volunteers work with a nationwide network of thousands of people to advocate social and economic justice, peace, and good government.

FCNL is a 501(c)4 public interest lobby, not a political action committee (PAC) nor a special interest lobby. FCNL's multi-issue advocacy connects historic Quaker testimonies on peace, equality, simplicity and truth with peace and social justice issues which the United States government is or should be addressing. FCNL seeks to follow the leadings of the Spirit as it speaks for itself and for like-minded people.

Location
Our offices are strategically located on Capitol Hill, across the street from the Hart Senate Office Building and provide ready access to the offices of government. As FCNL works with many groups that share similar concerns, our Wilson conference room is frequently the venue of coalition meetings and meetings of organizations other than FCNL. In all its work, FCNL seeks to promote dialog and cooperation among those with varied viewpoints.

((end snip))

We liberal christians have been speaking out for a long time. We are pleased to have our secular friends join us in the effort.

[Ladyhawk]

42. Thanks, quaker bill!

This atheist totally supports your efforts. What's wrong with a world free of war, equity and justice, fulfilled potential and a restored earth? Nothing. We share the same goals. We arrive at the same destination via different paths. :)

So if we stand side-by-side for equality and tolerance, we must learn to be equitable and tolerant of one another. I have to reach out to Christians and other religionists on the left and try to trust again.

Liberal atheists and Christians need each other. We have to present a united front against intolerance and bigotry, but first we have to learn not to be bigoted toward one another.

[Jamastiene]

55. I'll try my best

for liberal Christians only. That is my way of saying to the fundamentslist hate mongers that they turned me away and only liberal Christians can have my cooperation. Believe it or not, I believe there is strength in that message. Anytime we use populism this way, they get scared and rightly so. If we ever iron out our differences on the left, they right will be marginalized. And they know that.

[Jamastiene]

49. I have said that many times.

I had high hopes when I first realized there were progressive Christians on DU. First, I dropped a hint that we desparately need their help. I got plenty of "I can't"'s with a few "Let's try"'s. I was extatic. I thought I could try to work with some of the "I can't"'s. I thought, they are liberals therefore reasonable people, then I tried to get them to see that their faith could give them power. I got accused of being an atheist proselytizer. Okay, that didn't work. Next, I tried to ask outright if they would be interested in forming and alliance with nonChristians to present a morals based front at least where we have common ground. I got more "I can't"'s, but again a few takers. There are some really great Christians on DU. I love them. They are probably the best people to have to lead us although, none of the really great ones (diplomatic, easy going, cool) seemed comfortable with that suggestion. Okay, plan C. Be ugly about it. Demand that they put up or shut up. Oops. They all of a sudden got fired up. Okay, I got them fired up, but at me. Oops again. Right fevered pitch and type of discussion happening, wrong target. That didn't work. Now, I merely point out to certain Christians on DU that they are what I wish all Christians would strive to be like. Others have made it to the ignore list because they were too much like fundies. Believe it or not, less made it to the ignore list that to the buddies list for me. That tells me something very important. We just need to unofficially nominate a select group of dimplomats and see if there is enough interest and faith on DU to do what you are talking about. I don't know the right way to do it though. I wish Jessie Jackson or some modern day Martin Luther King type person would come here and round us up and teach us how to get along long enough to accomplish something. That's what I believe is our only way back to the drawing board and to true freedom from the right wing total control situation in our executive position of government.

[Solly Mack]

61. If you want to save Liberal Christians-Christianity, people must

Not just defend, but fight for, the separation of church and state

It won't just be us non-believers the theocratic right comes for...

they'll come for y'all too.

It IS my fight as a non-believer because to protect my right to be free from religion, I must protect the right of my Liberal Christian friends to have freedom of religion...and that means embracing the separation of church and state and fighting the theocratic right with everything I have...

I won't deny even a fundie the right to their religion..but I will deny that fundie the right to govern by their religion...

just as I would deny any religion a right to govern ...the right to believe..yes....the right to govern by the belief? No. NEVER.

Secular government is the only way to protect the rights of all people.

Just say NO to theocracy and YES to the separation of church and state. It's the only way to save your religion.