I really think we should use the word "fascist" more

[goodboy]

maybe it'll help shake people awake.


your thoughts?

[Worst Username Ever]

1. They like to use communist, I don't see a problem with it.

[goodboy]

6. exactly.

[FreedomAngel82]

90. Yep

Call them what they are. Pure facists. Plain and simple.

[Selteri]

2. Been using it for a while

after all, it is fascism.

[goodboy]

7. me too...

[patrice]

3. I agree, but I wonder if enough people know what it means.

What definition would they give if asked?

[goodboy]

8. I like to pull hitler quotes and bush quotes and ask people who they

think said it. It's interesting to see them say Bush when in fact it was Hitler.

[Extend a Hand]

16. I think Mussolini summed it up

"Fascism should more appropriately be called corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power." (Benito Mussolini, Encyclopedia Italiana)

[goodboy]

18. corporatism is a good description, but a little too nice. The word

"fascist" sounds evil...which would also be appropriate, since they like to define everything in terms of good vs. evil

[FreedomAngel82]

91. People also know it a lil more

because of Hitler. They can put two and two together a little better I think.

[Radical Activist]

4. I do it all the time

It gives a good opportunity to explain just how much like the fascists they are. I usually compare them to Italian fascists to avoid the whole Nazi/Hitler debate. Bush isn't that bad yet.

[goodboy]

19. awesome...I love the look on their faces when that word is used..they

don't know what to think. (probably because they can't think)

[Redstone]

5. No, for some reason it just doesn't work

with most Americans. I do not know why.

"Nazis" is much more descriptive of the bushyboy crowd, but tends to set off people of German extraction.

We need a new word, I think.

Redstone

[goodboy]

9. I understand, but fascism and it's 14 points are descriptive in their

own senses and I don't feel it's necessary to make comparisons to Nazi's unless it illustrates a broader point.

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

[Redstone]

11. But, damn, you're expecting people to THINK,

and most Americans don't want to do that.

Redstone

[goodboy]

15. I know it's silly, but eventually the country will wake up and realign...

it always has.

[Ouabache]

88. you are assuming the pendulum is FREE to swing back

which it may be, but a historic tactic of fascists is to undermine the mechanisms of society and democracy which allow that pendulum to swing back restoring the balance and sanity. So many of the Bushista 'reforms' are designed to prevent that pendulum from ever swinging back. I think that is the underlying problem we face in addressing them, and convincing others who are still so slow to form an opinion.

[Warren Stupidity]

10. I agree that it is accurate.

Fascist-theocrats is more accurate. Of course we way over-used the term in the 60's/70's when they were just shooting us down and arresting us en masse and killing foreigners by the 100'000s. Then we all went to sleep for 25 years after watergate and the end of the war and all, and pretended that they had gone all nice and reasonable on us when in reality they were just plotting and planning and scheming for Amerika V2.0.

Oh but what a shock when we finally started waking up to what they had done while we were out.

Fascist theocrats.

Fundamentalist lunatic fascist neoclowns.

The Amerikan Taliban.

[goodboy]

14. kick for your post...(nt)

[goodboy]

12. here's the 14 points of fascism...find one that doesn't describe bush

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm



1.) Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
2.) Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
3.) Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
4.) Supremacy of the Military
5.) Rampant Sexism
6.) Controlled Mass Media
7.) Obsession with National Security
8.) Religion and Government are Intertwined
9.) Corporate Power is Protected
10.) Labor Power is Suppressed
11.) Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
12.) Obsession with Crime and Punishment
13.) Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
14.) Fraudulent Elections

[Selteri]

23. And every single point has been hit at least 3 times in 5 years N/T

[goodboy]

27. I'd say each point is fulfilled on a daily basis with most of them (nt)

[goodboy]

31. EVERY ONE OF THESE DESCRIBES THE BUSHIES!!! READ

1.) Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
2.) Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
3.) Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
4.) Supremacy of the Military
5.) Rampant Sexism
6.) Controlled Mass Media
7.) Obsession with National Security
8.) Religion and Government are Intertwined
9.) Corporate Power is Protected
10.) Labor Power is Suppressed
11.) Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
12.) Obsession with Crime and Punishment
13.) Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
14.) Fraudulent Elections

[imenja]

55. fascism centered around a corporatist state model

Corporatism--a term that derives from corpus, the Latin word for body. The fascist corporatist state is one in which segments of society were vertically linked to the central government through the structure of the state itself, government organized unions and business associations. Labor does not have anywhere near the level of power or influence in American society as they had in fascist states. Fascism and Latin American populism--both movements centered around a corporatist state model--emerged in response to radical union activism. They sought to balance the demands of labor through official state structures in order to create a level of order necessary for the industrial economy. They sought an ideological middle road between savage capitalism and Marxism.


The criteria you list above discuss virtually every capitalist state in modern history and all right-wing dictatorships: Pinochet in Chile (73-89), Brazil (1964-85) from Castelo Branco to Figueredo, Argentina during the military regime led by Galtieri and others (78-83). It also fits the patrimonial dictatorships that dominated Central American for much of the 20th century. There is nothing distinctive as a political model in the characteristics you list above.

Wikipedia provides a useful discussion of the historical and ideological organs of fascism, which first developed in Italy:

"In an article in the 1932 Enciclopedia Italiana, written by Giovanni Gentile and attributed to Benito Mussolini, fascism is described as a system in which "The State not only is authority which governs and molds individual wills with laws and values of spiritual life, but it is also power which makes its will prevail abroad.... For the Fascist, everything is within the State and... neither individuals nor groups are outside the State.... For Fascism, the State is an absolute, before which individuals or groups are only relative...."
Mussolini, in a speech delivered on October 28, 1925, stated the following maxim that encapsulates the fascist philosophy: "Tutto nello Stato, niente al di fuori dello Stato, nulla contro lo Stato." ("Everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State".) Therefore, he reasoned, all individuals' business is the state's business, and the state's existence is the sole duty of the individual."

Besides totalitarianism, a key distinguishing feature of fascism is that it uses a mass movement to attack the organizations of the working class: parties of the left and trade unions. Thus Fritzsche and others describe fascism as a militant form of right-wing populism. This mobilization strategy involves Corporatism, Corporativism, or the Corporative State <2> (http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/bus/A0813636.html), all terms that refer to state action to partner with key business leaders, often in ways chosen to minimize the power of labor unions. Mussolini, for example, capitalized on fear of an imminent Socialist revolution <3> (http://www.thecorner.org/hists/total/f-italy.htm), finding ways to unite Labor and Capital, to Labor's ultimate detriment. In 1926 he created the National Council of Corporations, divided into guilds of employers and employees, tasked with managing 22 sectors of the economy. The guilds subsumed both labor unions and management, but were heavily weighted in favor of the corporations and their owners. The moneyed classes in return helped him change the country's laws to raise his stature from a coalition leader to a supreme commander. The movement was supported by small capitalists, low-level bureaucrats, and the middle classes, who had all felt threatened by the rise in power of the Socialists. Fascism also met with great success in rural areas, especially among farmers, peasants, and in the city, the lumpenproletariat. . .

There were several strains of tradition influencing Mussolini. Sergio Panunzio, a major theoretician of fascism in the 1920s, had a syndicalist background, but his influence waned as the movement shed its old left wing elements. The fascist concept of corporatism and particularly its theories of class collaboration and economic and social relations are very similar to the model laid out by Pope Leo XIII's 1892 encyclical Rerum Novarum. This encyclical addressed politics as it had been transformed by the Industrial Revolution, and other changes in society that had occurred during the nineteenth century. The document criticized capitalism, complaining of the exploitation of the masses in industry. However, it also sharply criticized the socialist concept of class struggle, and the proposed socialist solution to exploitation (the elimination, or at least the limitation, of private property). Rerum Novarum called for strong governments to undertake a mission to protect their people from exploitation, while continuing to uphold private property and reject socialism. It also asked Catholics to apply principles of social justice in their own lives.

Seeking to find some principle to compete with and replace the Marxist doctrine of class struggle, Rerum Novarum urged social solidarity between the upper and lower classes, and endorsed nationalism as a way of preserving traditional morality, customs, and folkways. In doing so, Rerum Novarum proposed a kind of corporatism, the organization of political societies along industrial lines that resembled mediaeval guilds. A one-person, one-vote democracy was rejected in favor of representation by interest groups. This idea was to counteract the "subversive nature" of the doctrine of Karl Marx."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

[goodboy]

58. you say that "labor doesn't have anywhere near the level of power

or influence in American society as they had in fascist states."

yet, one of the 14 points of fascism is suppresion of labor power:
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

example:

President Bush Attacks Organized Labor

Bush attacked organized labor Saturday, issuing orders effectively reducing how much money unions can spend for political activities and opening up government contracts to non-union bidding.

At his central Texas ranch this weekend, Bush issued four executive orders that labor union supporters denounced as a "giant step backward." The moves are a reversal of policy of the previous Democratic administration and an attack on organized labor, which vehemently opposed the orders.

Republicans have long sought to limit the influence of organized labor on political campaigns. The labor movement has been a prime source of get-out-the-vote drives for Democratic political campaigns, including that of Vice President Gore last year.
http://www.shastalink.k12.ca.us/csea/Legislative/BushAttacks.html

[imenja]

68. I don't accept the 14 points as an accurate description of fascism

That is why I provided information from Mussolini's own writings in which he lays out his conception of the fascist state. Wikipedia points to a series of ideological influences leading to fascism, which sought a middle road between savage capitalism and Marxism.

You are correct that the 14 points list labor repression, and Bush has repressed labor indirectly. The social and economic context of our society is quite different from those faced by the fascist and populist states of the 1930. They had active labor movements that dominated key areas to the economy. Strikes led by Anarchist and Communist unions shut down economic production in European and Latin American cities. In our own society, labor has long ago been beaten down. The examples you point to of Bush's labor repression is nothing compared to the way US governments have repressed unions and strike activity since the mid to late 19th century through the Reagan administration. Labor is dead in this country. Hitler, Mussolini, Peron, and Vargas faced radical labor movements that led general strikes that shut down the entire country. The turned to corporatism as a way of dealing with labor activism--giving workers economic gains in exchange for joining official government run unions that fed into the party structure of the ruling government. None of that resembles in any way what we have in this country right now. The fascists sought to deal with the problem but rather than relying on simple repression as their predecessors had done, the incorporated labor into the structure of the state itself. Workers fell under the control of the Ministry of Labor, and their unions were controlled and organized by the state. The same applied to industrialists and other key segments of society.

Since the dawn of industrialization, states used the police and military to repress strikes. That was nothing new. But the fascist sought to incorporate workers into the state itself, to grant them real economic concessions in exchange for political loyalty through the state party structure.

They conceived of the state a living organism, with various groups comprising different parts of the body--the belly, the arms, the feet, the head. Each part of the body had a different function, but there were all part of a single body.

The Bushies are a bunch of dangerous SOBs to be sure, but using a term that refers to an old political ideology that doesn't fit, doest seem to be to be the best approach. We would do better to think about what the precise nature of the Bush regime is and devise a descriptive term that relates to that. Neo-conservatism is obviously a dominant influence, as is the Christian Right. The only way to figure it out is to read through the right wing publications and see how they describe themselves and their vision of a new world order.
Political scientists may be doing this as we speak.

[goodboy]

73. I've got a book called "Dynamite" it's about the worker movement here

have you heard of it?


I'll just say that I think the admin. has enough in common with ordinary fascism to effectivly use the term in much the same way they call us Communists. (they don't even know what a communist is) I think raising eyebrows is the first step toward raising awareness.


thanks for keeping me honest!

[Gabi Hayes]

13. neo-fascists

a new appreciation of the 'sophistication' (to the lazy news consumer who hasn't followed the obviousness of their tactics) of the current iteration of the fascists ca. 20s Italy and their successors in Germany, would reveal just how far they've come since then

the intervening years and the refinements of so many areas of basic marketing, when it comes down to it (see Bernays, the father of it all), make it obvious that "smart" guys like Rove, the Barnum of the 21st century, is well aware that he has a nation of suckers at his disposal, and it's been VERY easy pickings so far, especially when the socalled opposition is every bit as beholden to the same interests that keep these psychotics in power

It's very difficult to see any sort of positive outcome in the near future

hope I'm wrong

[goodboy]

17. Neo-Fascists...I like that a lot. We can use the traditional definitions

and avoid the nazi debate.

[patrice]

20. The problem with fascism is that it has no philosophy

you can point to to identify it.

It is purely the will to power for power's sake. It uses whatever idea is current to acquire power and discards used up ideas for whatever is newly current, in order to milk the power out of that.

So, when you point to it, and say "That's fascism" people associate the power with whatever idea it is dressed in, and evaluate the idea instead of the fascists. If they like the idea, e.g. theocracy, they see the power as an extension of the "Truth" of the idea. If they don't like the idea, e.g. environmentalism, they see the power as a product of the idea's badness. You can't win, unless they know enough about power and the acquisition of power to see that at work, which they usually don't, so then you have to explain all of that to them, and then they say you are a nut case.

[goodboy]

22. Doesn't need a philosophy, just a definition. No one can deny

that by definition, these people are fascists, and we have a fascist government.

[patrice]

29. Yep, I say go with anyway. n/t

[goodboy]

30. so you'll call these fascists what they are? can the country count on you

to help them wake up for the sake of the world?

[patrice]

34. Oh yes, I use the term alright.

I've just had this sense all the while that people don't really know what the word means when I use it, and Nazi doesn't explain it very well either.

I hope don't mind my saying so, I'm an ex-high school teacher, I think I know what I'm observing.

[goodboy]

39. of course you do. I wasn't questioning your understanding in any way, and

I apologize if that's how you took it. I'm just a musician, and I can only count to 4. So when posting the 14 points I sub-divided into 4 bars of 4 and one bar of 2.

[Swamp Rat]

62. What about compound meter?

:D

[goodboy]

64. oooohhh.....look what the cat dragged in...

are you a drummer?

[Swamp Rat]

71. Well, I'm really a guitar player that has evolved into a percussionist

Flamenco was the pivot. :)

Now I play surdo (and other Brazilian percussion instruments) in a samba group. We were working on a break that requires me to play 4/4 over everyone else, who play in 6/8. Actually, I play under everyone else, since my surdo is the lowest pitched instrument in our group. Anyway, I happened upon your post and it struck a chord, so to speak... OK, NO VIOLA JOKES PLEASE! :D

[goodboy]

75. know the difference between a viola and a violin?

a viola burns longer.

[Swamp Rat]

78. ... "ta dum dum"

If you ever dated a viola player, you might find a deeper truth to that joke. ;)

[Occulus]

69. I wrote an 11/16 measure once.

The sick part was, it was only that measure. The rest was 4/4.

Go figure.

[goodboy]

76. wow...how the hell did you count it? did your tune have bar lines?

[Swamp Rat]

77. Literally, 'go figure'

Aren't you essentially talking about a pick-up note? Did you pluck it from the MIDDLE of the piece, leaving it somewhere in limbo? :D

Speaking of odd metered music, check out Machaut's isorhythmic motets!

[Selteri]

24. Fascism has a ginel philsoy.

Control the masses by any means at your disposal.

On edit - No, that isn't a typo, that was my typing Bushese)

[patrice]

32. i.e. Power

I see that as an objective or motive, not an underlying set of value statements.

[goodboy]

33. But you can be powerful and even consolidate power and still not

be considered a fascist.

[patrice]

36. True - to the extent that you are honest with yourself and others

about what the power is for, so everyone can make their own judgements regarding the ends:means.

[goodboy]

37. which is how they manages to sell us their extraordinary fuckup in

Iraq as freeing the Iraqi people rather than defending us from invisible WMD's while stealing their oil...manipulation and group think, more fascism.

[patrice]

46. Right. They lied,

and lied, and lied, and lied, and lied .........................

So no one involved got a decent shake at making a mature moral decision about what was going on.

Even if I disagree with someone's decision, e.g. to enlist and go to war, If they've made that decision in full knowledge and honesty, and if they've made that decision completely freely, then it is THEIR decision, and I have to live with it whether I like or not. That is not what happened with Bush's War.

As much as I dislike people making a living out of violence and killing, as much as I think that is morally wrong, I have to say, in this instance - Bush's War - they are not fully responsible, because they were purposely LIED to.

This is a very evil thing, to rob others of their own moral authority.

[goodboy]

49. "This is a very evil thing, to rob others of their own moral authority."

but an absolute MUST when you're running a fascist theocracy...you gotta break people before you can really manipulate them

[Warren Stupidity]

35. ok I have to ask

WTF is a ginel philsoy?

[Selteri]

56. Hehe, sorry, I was trying to be tongue in cheek and type

General Philosophy in Bushese - Ginel Philsoy

I put it in my edit on the orriginal post as well, sorry that it got missed (And you're not the only person who asked)

[Quixote1818]

21. I agree 100% Republicans use the word liberal. Lets use FACIST!

as our knife in the gutt term. It cuts through all the fog and creates a CLEAR negative label that is basicaly true.

[goodboy]

26. liberal isn't a bad word...but they've been able to make it one, fascist

on the other hand is a bad word...so creating the sense that fascism is evil (as opposed to liberalism, because after all, jesus was a liberal socialist) is already done.

[Quixote1818]

47. I agree

They have been successful in dehumanizing the word liberal when it's really a good thing. They basically have been successful at pulling our foundation out from under us. It's hard to attack the word conservative because it sounds like a positive word. Liberal can be made to sound negative.

Since we cant use the word conservative and get the same results then just like you said we should use a word that sticks, is to the point and has a negative connotation. It's the perfect word and it's a true label of what is going on.

[goodboy]

51. here's how you make "conservative" a bad word:

<>

[Quixote1818]

53. Thanks for that

The problem with the word conservative is it's too long. It's not catchy enough. To create a negative label the word needs to be short and easy to say.

Liberal
Fascist
Socialist
Communist

Conservative

See, conservative just does not have the right ring to it to make it stick as a negative word.

[goodboy]

54. plus, it is necessary when speaking to them to use smaller words. (nt)

[Selteri]

57. How about Regressive if you feel Fascist isn't a good work.

If regressive doesn't work there is always

Reversionist

and

Degneratetionist.

Oh almost forgot - Conformist

[goodboy]

59. those words are much too big and far, far too Politically Correct...

Nice has not worked for us. Time to fight fire with fire.

[Selteri]

65. just offering an alternative to Fascist for those who don't feel

completely comfortable with using the word Fascist, even though Corpotocracy is also a very apt statement to describe these people.

Remember, these people are Christian in name only, they love to sound like they are true Christian when the fact is that they also don't actually espouse Christian Values.

I might post to a new thread a story that a 'christian' tried to shove onto my blog that got hit by the spam filter because of the person multi-posting it to the blogs on that site.

It really is a perfect example of hypocryitical thinking, in their example they use sharing with the poor when you are rich as if you had to share your GPA with someone who doesn't work or study for their tests, but parties all the time. The anology is hypocrtitical where it draws the common lie from these 'Christian Conservatives' that those who are poor are poor because they don't work hard, sacrifice and the like... it's just as bad as how they have vilified the word Liberal to mean radical, crazy, heavy taxing and against maintaining security. Oh, those are false too, just in case you haven't figured out that Clinton spent more money into modernizing military in 4 years than George '1000 points of light' Bush or Ronald 'Ray-Gun' Reagan.

[goodboy]

66. Oh Ok...I understand. You're right, in their world,

up is down, left is right, right is wrong, rich are poor.


It's insane. The religious aspect of the whole thing might just be the most necessary element with which to manipulate people. I may get flamed a little for this, but in my observation, extremely religious people seem to be easily brainwashed/manipulated. So appealing to that sense seems like the easiest way to get people to go along with what you're trying to do, even if it really goes against every teaching of that particular religious doctrine.

[Selteri]

67. Well, there is a reason Marx called it the Opium of the Masses

It's addictive and shuts down critical thinking because God tells you want to do and when to do it.

[goodboy]

70. Tool wrote a great song about it (coincidentally) called "Opiate" lyrics>>

Opiate


Choices always were a problem for you.
What you need is someone strong to guide you.
Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow,
what you need is someone strong to use you..
like me,
like me.

If you want to get your soul to heaven,
trust in me .
Don't judge or question.
You are broken now ,
but faith can heal you.
Just do everything I tell you to do.
Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow.
Let me lay my holy hand upon you.

My Gods will
becomes me.
When he speaks out,
he speaks through me.
He has needs
like I do.
We both want
to rape you.

Jesus Christ, why don't you come save my life.
Open my eyes and blind me with your light
and your lies.

[Webster Green]

25. I agree!

I use it all the time.

If it walks like a duck.....

[goodboy]

28. thanks for posting, WG...like the pic too. (nt)

[TahitiNut]

38. I see no reason to call it anything other than what it is: fascism.

Fascism is, quite literally, antisocialism - adored by sociopaths.

[goodboy]

40. another great word to use more often: Sociopaths. Thanks Tahiti! (nt)

[DURHAM D]

41. I use "Brown Shirts" for wingnuts under 40.

And, fascist for nuts over 40.

The Brown Shirts don't usually know the reference so just tell them to do a little research.

[goodboy]

42. lol...that's great, DD!

[chlamor]

43. Soft Consumer Friendly Fascism-Branded

[goodboy]

44. "It's not fascism when we do it" -priceless (nt)

[imenja]

45. no, people tune it out

It's an overused word that has lost all meaning in its vernacular. If you want to hurl insults, then it's fine. If your goal is to awaken or inform people politically, it's counterproductive. You'll only turn people off.

[goodboy]

48. I don't think it's overused at all...the "liberal/communist/socialist"

meme hasn't worn off, and is still used every day to scare people. Sometimes it takes tough language to wake people up. After all, how did being nice help us win the 2004 elections?

[Itsthetruth]

50. Infantile Leftists Saying A Really Cool Word

Sure. Call all Republicans and Democrats who vote for Bush's appointments and legislation a fascist or Nazi.

That way when the real thing comes along people won't pay any attention to you.

That's real smart. This thread clearly demonstrates that many people don't have a clue about what fascism and Nazism is and how they actually arose. But, it sure sounds cool!

This sounds more like infantile "leftism" by frustrated Democrats who need to learn a little history.

[goodboy]

52. Find just one of these things that doesn't apply to the current admin, and

you might have a point. And I take exception to your little insult. Nobody listened to Richard A. Clarke when he told everyone we were going to get hit. Nobody listened to the analysts who said there were no WMD's in Iraq. Nobody listened when Joe Wilson said Iraq didn't buy Uranium from Niger. Nobody listened to the scapegoated soldiers in the Abu Ghraib scandal when they said the orders came from the top. And nobody listened when John Kerry said these were the most crooked, lying, group I've ever seen in my life.

1.) Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
2.) Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
3.) Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
4.) Supremacy of the Military
5.) Rampant Sexism
6.) Controlled Mass Media
7.) Obsession with National Security
8.) Religion and Government are Intertwined
9.) Corporate Power is Protected
10.) Labor Power is Suppressed
11.) Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
12.) Obsession with Crime and Punishment
13.) Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
14.) Fraudulent Elections

[Itsthetruth]

84. Your Point Is?

Those 14 points sound like a description of the United States in the late 40's and early 50's!

And I remember well the "fascists" Goldwater, Nixon, Kissinger, etc.,

So how are we going to "end fascism" in America? Elect Hillary?

[goodboy]

85. I've made my points, you haven't...I'm waiting. nt

[Itsthetruth]

86. My Point Is

My point is that all of the reactionary items cited were occuring in the United States 50 and more years ago! Was the United States a fascist nation with a fascist dictator in 1948 or 1955? And later were Goldwater and Nixon fascists?

Like I said, throwing around the word fascist or Nazis might sound cool and help relieve personal frustration but it certainly doesn't lend any clarity to what is really happening in the United States today.

And if people run around screaming fascism to describe every right-wing politician or event, when the real thing emerges who will pay serious attention to them?

[goodboy]

89. I appreciate what you're saying, and your point about

the other fascists in our history such as Nixon is well taken. That being said, could you even possibly compare Nixon on his worst day to the horrors of Bush? I'd take nixon any day.

As for throwing around the term, 'fascist' it can hardly be said it doesn't lend clarity to what is happening, because the administration and our government is by definition, fascist. It's not a cool word, it doesn't relieve my personal frustration, but it does define them rather well. It should also be said that I don't associate the word 'fascist' with nazi's necessarily, although bush and hitler do have quite a lot in common. you don't have to be a nazi to be a fascist.

THe right has managed to turn liberalism (which ironically their "savior" Jesus was a socialist liberal) into a dirty word, and the only way to counter is by fighting fire with fire. You can be nice to them if you want, call them supply-siders, call them, regressives...

I'm calling them what they are, fascists.

[Itsthetruth]

93. Is Senator John Kerry A "Fascist Collaborator"? I Don't Think So

"the administration and our government is by definition, fascist. It's not a cool word, it doesn't relieve my personal frustration, but it does define them rather well."

That would be true only if you are using an entirely new definition of fascism that has no relationship to fascist movements and governments of the 1930's.

If Nixon doesn't appear so bad to you today, that is only because the Democratic and Republican parties have moved far to the right in the past few decades. And no, Nixon was not a fascist. And Bush is not a fascist. If Bush heads up a fascist government, I and you would have to call many leaders of the Democratic party fascists or at minimum "fascist collaborators"! After all, Senators Reid, Clinton, Kerry and a host of others have voted for Bush's "fascist" presidential appointments and "fascist" legislation over the past five years including his "fascist war" in Iraq and the "fascist Patriot Act". Isn't that right? Well, I don't think John Kerry and Senator Reid are even "fascist collaborators" much less fascists. Do you?



If we had anything close to a "fascist" government you and I would know it and acknowledge it right now. Why? Because we would not be posting on Democratic Underground and Skinner would be in a concentration camp.

[Selteri]

61. We didn't say they were all,

we've been saying that the present regime is fascist, there's a very subtle difference.

If you want more proof, take a look at the things that Gemrany did in the lead up and look at the same things that Bush has done. Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.

And Bush if devinitely imitating Hitler in his actions, right to the World Trade Center 'patriot flag' tour.

And the 'secret' meetings at the 'grove' in California...

And his beautiful Patriot Act with it's terrific stomping on the Bill of Rights.

[imenja]

60. How do Republicans react?

have you had conversation with Republicans in which you've described Bush and even the people you're talking to as fascists, and then elicited some sort of useful engagement that prompts them to think, "oh yeah," "this is a fascist state. I'll go vote for John Kerry" or whomever? I can't imagine it being persuasive in the way the much of the Republican language has proved to be: death tax, pro-life, clean skies and countless other terms they use that require
cognitive dissonance.

I also don't like the term because it does not accurately describe the nature of our own society. I deal with what precisely fascism is in another post above.

[goodboy]

63. Let me address each one of your points:

"have you had conversation with Republicans in which you've described Bush and even the people you're talking to as fascists,"

YES...I'm not a wimpy democrat, and I call them like I see them.

"and then elicited some sort of useful engagement that prompts them to think, "oh yeah," "this is a fascist state. I'll go vote for John Kerry" or whomever?"

YES, I have been able to change a few minds. By providing examples, and articulating my position based on facts and evidence, I have changed people's views. We won't win by engaging these people piece-meal though, we should have a country-wide effort to define what they're doing with the most appropriate definition possible and repeat it over and over and over and over again. This is what they do, and it has worked for them...and we're the smart ones!

"I can't imagine it being persuasive in the way the much of the Republican language has proved to be: death tax, pro-life, clean skies and countless other terms they use that require
cognitive dissonance. "

You'd be surprised. I will concede that most of them aren't capable of any real critical thinking so any dialogue would be moot.

" I also don't like the term because it does not accurately describe the nature of our own society. I deal with what precisely fascism is in another post above."

I disagree with you there. The country is in a fascist (by definition), blood thirsty, warmongering mood. The Bushies have managed to do to our country what Hitler did to the German people,.

Thanks for your post!

[imenja]

74. If it truly is effective, that's great

I myself couldn't use that argument. As a historian, I know a fair bit about the historical and economic circumstances that gave rise to fascist states and how those governments conceived of themselves ideologically, so I can't make a political argument I know to be false.

If it works for you, that's great.

[goodboy]

79. Well, that's because you're much smarter and well read than the

average american. But I consider this anti-propaganda. Fighting fire with fire.

[Swamp Rat]

81. Concordo com você!

Oi! :hi:

[haggard]

72. we arent facist lol

OH COME ON, america isnt facist, we just say that all arabs are terrorists, we are at war with iraq for oil and bush is a KKK memeber, oh wait....never mind lol

[Swamp Rat]

80. You are right, some "Americans" are Red Commie Busheviks!

Welcome to DU! Good luck! :D

[neverenoughtinfoil]

82. we are fucked

For some reason earlier today, I was thinking of Jose Padilla. He was an American citizen, caught on American Soil, now held incommmunicado without charge or trial for 3 1/2 years. I believe a Justice Dept. official even said "If we had allowed him to take advantage of his civil liberties, we might have to release him(if anyone can find the quote I would be grateful)" No one cares. We are living in Pinochet's Chile, no one cares. My parents "warned" me before the election that if Kerry won, our taxes might goi up. I warned them that if Bush won, our livelihoods in general would suffer, as well as what little freedom we have left. Guess who is turning out to be right, but they don't get it. We should stop trying to warn people, their brains ahve been sucked out. It is over, period. No one I was trying to talk to gets it. No one cares about the constitution or our livelihoods as long as Daddy Bush is in charge, there is no anger out there like we like to imagine, it is over, we are dwelling am,ong pod people. We can't change the situation anymore, there is no way. This guy-www.bidstrup.com/exile.htm goes into more detail on why this is. Yes, Fascism indeeed, but the people don't and won't "get it" no matter how bad things get, the kool-aid is just too strong. We can no longer change anything.

[Selteri]

83. They don't get it

they parrot and make excuses, when I corner them on the really bad things that have been done they claim, "Well, that's what you do for security' and other easy excuses.

My mother still defends the patriot act because 'it works', although I've gotten her to agree that the Iraq war was about Oil at least. It gives me some hope that she can be saved from her Bush induced Coma from Common Sense which... in these sad days... seems to be lacking.

[Lone Pawn]

87. Yes, there's a good way to make us look balanced and intelligent

to the American people. Call everyone we don't like a Nazi.
:eyes:

[goodboy]

92. no, we should call the fascists what they are. and although bush and

hitler have a lot in common, not all fascists are nazis. however, if someone would like to challenge me on the similarities between bush and hitler, bring it on.

By the way, do you think the american people respond to "balanced and intelligent" How did being balanced, intelligent, and nice help us out this past election cycle>?

[apple_ridge]

94. I've been commonly referring to rethugs as fascists for years now.