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starscape Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 02:13 PM
Original message
Gen. Wesley Clark on the issues
I'm excited Clark is in the race. Obviously, I want to know more about him. I've noticed a lot of other people are unsure of where he stands on the issues. Obviously, he's going to need to firm up on a lot of things, but his general stance on most issues are a good starting point, at least from my political perspective.

From the Draft Clark web site..
http://www.draftwesleyclark.com

Affirmative Action:  Clark is a strong proponent and supporter of affirmative action, diversity, and multiculturalism:
* “I’m in favor of the principle of affirmative action… what you can’t have is you can’t have a society in which we’re not acknowledging that there is a problem in this society with racial discrimination.”  Meet The Press
* "I saw first hand the racial prejudice, the civil disobedience, the intolerance… I've often gone back to that experience. It's something I've related to."  Waging Modern War by Wesley Clark
* Clark was recently one of several former military men to file a pro-affirmative action "friend of the court" brief on behalf of the University of Michigan in their battle against the Bush Administration efforts to dismantle Michigan's admissions policy. Clark said he was "surprised and dismayed" by the president's decision.  (Read the consolidated brief (PDF) of retired military leaders (including Wesley Clark) in support of University of Michigan's affirmative action program.)

The Environment: Environmental protections appear to be part of Clark’s overall global and progressive vision for America. 
* "Human beings do affect the environment and all you have to do is fly along the Andes and look at the disappearing glaciers down there and you recognize that there is something called global warming and it's just getting started as China and India modernize." (source – speech at the Council on Foreign Relations)
* "100 years out, the only things we leave behind that will matter are the environment and constitutional legitimacy."
* Opposes drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge on the grounds that "the gains in terms of US energy independence are relatively marginal" The Diane Rehm Show

Gays in the Military: "But essentially we’ve got a lot of gay people in the armed forces, always have had, always will have. And I think that, you know, we should welcome people that want to serve." Meet The Press

Guns: Clark has implied that gun ownership is primarily a local issue. He also believes that assault weapons should be banned for the general public, stating, "people who like assault weapons they should join the United States Army, we have them." (CNN's Crossfire, 06/25/03)

Health Care and Education: Clark is a strong supporter of a social safety net, including effective and well-supported systems of education and health care:
* "I grew up in an armed forces that treated everyone as a valued member of the team. Everyone got healthcare, and the army cared about the education of everyone's family members. It wasn't the attitude that you find in some places, where people are fending for themselves and the safety net doesn't work." (Source: Waging Modern War)

Immigration: "We’re a nation of immigrants. We should be encouraging every person from the Indian Institute of Technology that comes to this country to stay in this country. Become an American citizen. Join with us. Make a great company. Let’s all be wealthy and prosperous and happy together. Immigration has a vital part to play in that process." (Source: New Democrat Network speech)

National Security, 9/11, and The Patriot Act: Clark is wary of trading off individual rights that allow the government to escape accountability.  Clark supports a review of the Patriot Act to assess its effectiveness and potential damage to individual rights.  He has also called for more accountability surrounding 9/11 so we know what went wrong and how to prevent these attacks in the future.
* “I think one of the risks you have in this operation is that you’re giving up some of the essentials of what it is in America to have justice, liberty and the rule of law. I think you’ve got to be very, very careful when you abridge those rights to prosecute the war on terrorists. So I think that needs to be carefully looked at.”  Meet The Press
* "One of the things about the war on terror that I am disturbed about is that we've essentially suspended habeas corpus. Which is something that's only been done once in American history and then only for a very brief period. When I go back and think about the atmosphere in which the PATRIOT Act was passed, it begs for a reconsideration and review.”  (source – Salon.com interview)
*  “We’ve got a set of hearings that need to be conducted to look at what happened that caused 9/11. That really hasn’t been done yet. You know, a basic principle of military operations is you conduct an after-action review. When the action’s over you bring people together. The commander, the subordinates, the staff members. You ask yourself what happened, why, and how do we fix it the next time? As far as I know, this has never been done about the essential failure at 9/11. Then moving beyond that, it needs to be looked at in terms of the whole intelligence effort and how it’s connected to the policy effort. And these are matters that probably cannot be aired fully in public but I think that the American people and their representatives have to be involved in this. This is essential in terms of the legitimacy and trust in our elected leadership and our way of government.”  Meet The Press

Taxes and the Economy: Clark favors a responsible and progressive taxation system that creates jobs and doesn’t put this country into ruinous financial shape with gaping deficits.  Clark, who at one point taught economics at West Point, was against Bush’s tax changes because they don’t effectively create jobs, they are unfair, and they imperil our nation’s fiscal health. 
* “Taxes are something that you want to have as little of as possible, but you need as much revenue as necessary to meet people’s needs for services.”  Meet The Press
* “ were not efficient in terms of stimulating the kind of demand we need to move the economy back into a recovery mode, a strong recovery and a recovery that provides jobs.” Meet The Press
* “The tax cuts weren’t fair… the people that need the money and deserve the money are the people who are paying less, not the people who are paying more. I thought this country was founded on a principle of progressive taxation. In other words, it’s not only that the more you make, the more you give, but proportionately more because when you don’t have very much money, you need to spend it on the necessities of life. When you have more money, you have room for the luxuries and you should—one of the luxuries and one of the privileges we enjoy is living in this great country.” Meet The Press
* “I mean, you look at the long-run health of the country and the size of the deficit that we’ve incurred and a substantial part of that deficit is result of the tax cuts. You have to ask: “Is this wise, long-run policy?” I think the answer is no.”  Meet The Press

Women’s Issues: Clark is a strong supporter of women’s rights. Bluntly stating on CNN's Crossfire "I am pro-choice." He is pro-choice, supporting the rights of women to make these decisions outside of governmental regulation (Source – The American Prospect), and in the early 1980s, he proactively tackled spousal abuse as an army commander with a forward-thinking assessment of the demands of the modern family. (source - War in a Time of Peace, by David Halberstam)
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Rich Hunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
1. well, shit
Sounds like an honest-to-god liberal.
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Clark Can WIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Yeah, who wudda thunk it?
This is actually the thing that attracted me to him as a candidate. Saw him on CNN and thought, now why can't THIS GUY be our president.

Why indeed.

Then I learned about his stands on the issues and I was hooked all they way.
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catpower2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
3. Kick--great post...
Anybody know anything about his stance on gay marriage?

:kick:
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
4. I like his take on guns
"Guns: Clark has implied that gun ownership is primarily a local issue. He also believes that assault weapons should be banned for the general public, stating, "people who like assault weapons they should join the United States Army, we have them." (CNN's Crossfire, 06/25/03)"

That is hilarious.

I agree that gun ownership is a local issue.
But I love his line about assault weapons.
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #4
23. You're not alone...
"Germans who wish to use firearms should join the SS or the SA. Ordinary citizens don't need guns, as their having guns doesn't serve the State."--Heinrich Himmler

I wonder what other paraphrases of historical figures he's going to come up with... :eyes:
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. Oh, Brother
I had no idea the Clark/Nazi comparisons would start so soon. Silly, naive me.

You do realize, of course, that Clark's position (gun ownership is local, private citizens may own guns) is diametrically opposed to Himmler's alleged quote (only the state may own guns, the "gun grabber" argument)?

This is not a paraphrase, in any event.

Oh, BTW...welcome to my Ignore list. They're outing themselves like crazy, these days.

DTH
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Thanks for the ignore...
Both Clark and Himmler basically said "people who want to play with guns should join the military." Their positions on this one issue are practically identical. And you should read Clark's position on the draft clark website...I'm not making this stuff up.
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IranianDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. You want to compare Clark to Himmler?
Are you insane or a troll?
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. Nope...read what I wrote.
Clark's position on gun control bears a shocking resemblance to Himmler's, to the point that it seems EXTREMELY likely that Clark actually paraphrased a policy statement Himmler made. It's ONE issue...but the fact that he'd paraphrase Himmler and copy his position on ANYTHING is deeply disturbing to me, and should be deeply disturbing to ANYBODY.

If Clark had just said "Ban 'em", I'd be MUCH less upset than I am by his paraphrasing Himmler.
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lifelong_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #30
43. Learn to read and comprehend
Clark said people should join the military if they want to use assault weapons. Himmler said people should join the military if they wanted to use any guns at all.

It doesn't take a genius to see the difference here.
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #43
53. Given that "assault weapons" didn't exist back then...
what's your point?
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lifelong_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #53
61. The point is simple
Clark supports the right of citizens to own guns. Himmler didn't.
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ignatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
5. Thanks for the link. He is also a Rhodes Scholar. How exciting
would it be to have a president again who can put together 2 sentences without saying "wanted dead or alive," or "Bring them on."

Clark/Dean...looks like a winning combination to me.
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catpower2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
6. It's funny...
I've seen lots of posts today that state something like, "We don't know what Clark's stand on the issues is!! It's so vague!!" and yet each time I kick this thread, it sinks like a stone.

:kick:
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starscape Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. thanks..
thanks for kicking it. I guess it's one of those long posts that provides interesting reading, but doesn't necessarily invite a response. But I would love to see some discussion here about what is good/bad in his statements on the issues..

I know this "platform" is really just culled from quotes here and there and might be a little vague, but so far, I cannot find much to disagree with!

Here's hoping that Clark is finally that candidate that I can feel proud - and confident - in supporting.

Don't get me wrong - I like Dean's style, and Kucinich's substance. But I just still have some reservations...
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Fabio Donating Member (929 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. I like Wesley Clark's history
and am very interested to see what he does to the race/how he fares. Certainly, there are lots of DEMs who have been waiting on him. I am a Kerry supporter, and I do think that Clark poses a challenge. Whether he poses a bigger challenge to Governor Dean or JK remains to be seen.

On Clark, though, I cant help but think that this platform is a little light. I mean, in my estimation, the job of president of the United States is 1/3 commander in chief (military), 1/3 chief diplomat (foreign policy) and 1/3 chief executive (CEO). Our current president falls short in all matters. In my opinion, Dean falls short in 2 of 3 (military and foreign policy). Clark would be a force as CiC, has a progressive worldview compatible with the best elements of the State Department, but has little history or experience with domestic affairs. In an economic downturn, it remains to be seen how it sells. I think JK scores well in all areas, but I wont go off on that here. Still, good luck General, some of us here will be rooting against you, but not because of your service to country and character.

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eek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. yes, some even-toned discussion, please
I concur with Starscape about wanting to read some good/bad
discussion of Clark.

And also like Starscape, I hope that WC is someone i can wholeheartedly, proudly support.

Can anyone, without going rabid give some "elevator talk" negatives?

Oh - and I likewise want to know his stance on gay marriage as Catpower asks
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goobergunch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. I'm curious to see him campaigning
He sounds great from those issue stances. But I still haven't seen him on the campaign trail: what issues he emphasizes, whether he moves to the left or right, whether he engages in candidate-bashing, etc.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Maybe that is because
those "stances" are written by clark supporters, not clark himself. I've been told time and again, that clark is NOT affliated w/those websites.
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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Um
The majority of that post is quotes from Wesley Clark himself, many of which I heard from his own mouth on tv.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. So, how does one differentiate
between what has come out of clark's mouth and what supporters hope he means?
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starscape Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. stay tuned..
In my opinion, that will become more clear almost immediately. Now that he is running a campaign he will be expected to clearly develop his positions, especially in this field of contenders. Let's just say, this isn't the California recall.. no Arnolds here. You have to know your stuff, and frankly I think Dean has been stung a little by having to backtrack on a few things. I don't hold it against him.. I still admire his spirit and I think he has invigorated the entire process.

But Clark has been the first to admit he needs to develop some concrete stances on domestic issues, and I believe he will do so in the coming months.. If he doesn't, people won't take him seriously.

Just as some would say 'don't embrace him because he's vague,' I would say, don't dismiss him, either. If you're a liberal, like me, his compass seems to definitely be pointing in the right direction!
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. I have been a LIBERAL
for over thirty years and from what I have read about clark, he is nothing like me.

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starscape Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. fair enough.
On what issues are you so diametrically opposed?

Just an honest question, because maybe there are some things about Clark that I need to know.
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jayfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #6
19. Kinda Like This Thread?
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catpower2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. What the hell? That was a very nice thread!
Luckily, the vast majority of DUers DO want to educate themselves rather than speculate about things. :)

Cat
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
37. Clark is going to win...
Edited on Tue Sep-16-03 06:16 PM by rasputin1952
It is virtually impossible for him to please everyone; so there will be the usual 'naysayers'. Who cares?

Cat...you are one of the most intelligent people that post here; God, I would love to sit down and have a couple of cups of coffee with you and just listen to you talk, (not that I am the proverbial idiot), you simply fascinate me with your insight and intelligence.

Fear not, this will not sink, people are waiting for Wes to get out there and show what he is made of. I have no idea what he thinks of gay marriage, nor do I really care; my point being, Clark can and will beat bush. I know enopugh of the man to realize that he is progressive, intelligent, and can beat the pants, (ugh, bad visual), off of of bush.

Keep the faith! All will come out and we will see that we are hitching ourselves tot he proper star.

:hi: :loveya:

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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
8. Clark needs to talk about outsourcing
The Republicans are screaming at Bush for ignoring it, and of course most Dem leaders are pro-outsourcing anyway. If Clark takes a strong, populist stand on jobs, he'll take half of Bush's votes away from him.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. Here, Friend! Clark VERY Anti-Outsourcing, Pro-FAIR Trade
Minutes 27-31 of this excellent NPR interview go into his economic credentials and his position on issues like these:

http://www.theconnection.org/shows/2003/09/20030908_b_main.asp

DTH
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LalahLand Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
13. thanks for the info...
I was beginning to worry...
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. He's just beginning. He knows he has to speak to all the
issues and answer the questions he's been given. Frankly, I haven't seen anyone this liberal in years, including the trad candidates, and I'm dying with happiness here. Of course, he hasn't answered all the points and laid out all his opinions and ideas but when he does, know it will be his OWN words and not some dimwad's scribbles, like
dimwit in the white house. He has the education necessary to turn this crap around, the gravitas on the world stage and the integrity to uphold what Bush wants to burn.

Can you imagine a goon dip like Ashcroft in the cabinet of a man like this? Never.

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ignatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
16. Kick for starscape and our evening crowd.
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Iris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
20. and I heard a rumour on another thread that he uanshamedly labeled himself
Edited on Tue Sep-16-03 04:06 PM by Iris
with the "L" word on a Bill Maher's show.
:o
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OKNancy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
24. I've been researching
Here is a snip from a review of his first book.

From Publishers Weekly
U.S. Army General Clark describes this account of his tenure as commander of the 1999 Kosovo operation as a personal memoir. But the book, Clark's first, uses a narrative of the campaign as the springboard for a provocative analysis of contemporary war.

*** Clark, in contrast to other American military leaders, places protecting human rights among U.S. vital interests***



http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/158648043X/qid=/br=1-/ref=br_lf__//103-7817095-8996661?v=glance&n=68100
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catpower2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Human rights???
*speaking as Chimpy* "Human Whosits? What are them? How do we make money off them?" /*speaking as Chimpy*

Cat
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. Like the humans
he dropped cluster bombs and DU on?
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starscape Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. not fair
That's not really fair. The same could be said about any president, i.e. Commander in Chief, who has engaged in war. Clinton is a perfect example.

I thought I would have a very difficult time supporting a general, and in some ways I still do, but decisions are made and we have to remember that ultimately, our military still answers to the President and Congress, who are supposed to answer to us. Where that breaks down along the way is unclear. Seems lately, the breakdown is between the people and the president - Bush doesn't give a rats ass, he is "my way or the highway."


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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Why is it not fair?
It's the truth. And he was "fired" for his actions.

Do you think the families of the dead and maimed Serbians think it's not fair?
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starscape Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. well...
What about the families of the dead and maimed Muslims that the Serbs killed?

I guess we can go on and on. Do you oppose Clark based on his actions in Serbia? Are there other issues as well, as you alluded to? I'm trying to get a feel for where you are coming from.

I don't support Clark out of hand, but if we are looking at a value system, based on war and those who have caused the deaths of others, then almost every President of this country is impeachable. Does that make war okay? Of course not. But I'm not sure which value choices are positives and which are negatives in your framework.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. So, it's o-kay
if Muslims are maimed and killed, but not Serbs?

My value choice is...

A man that has devoted his life to healing.

Instead of a man that has devoted his life to killing.

Peace
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starscape Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. no...
It's not okay if either are killed! But sometimes, you can't just walk into a country and say, "hey guys, stop killing those other guys.." That's why Africa is such a mess. War is still a reality in this age. It sucks. I wish we were not a party to it, and we have no right to be in Iraq under the (criminally) false pretenses that Bush and Co. shoved down our throats.

Look, this is a frustrating exchange, because I believe in peace too, and of course value someone who protects life over those who make war. But military is a reality and a necessity, as much as you may abhor it, might as well have people in place who do value international law and, more importantly, human life.

We'll see what happens. I won't give up on Dean. But let me ask you this - are you a Dean supporter? Did you know he wanted Clark on board his campaign? If Clark is such an immoral, integrity-deficient person, that how does it make you feel that Dean might end up in league with him?

It's all politics...
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Do you know that was media hype?
(Dean wanting clark)

But, if Dean were to ask clark to be his running mate, I would not vote for Dean.

You seem to be o-kay w/war. I am not and never will be, unless it is to truly defend the lives of USians. And in my lifetime, almost five decades, that has never happened.

Why do you support war? Why do you support the killing of innocent men, women and children? It is never the innocent that start wars, yet they are the ones that die or are maimed for life.

It is always the rich and powerful that initiate wars and it is always the poor that shed the blood. Always has been, always will be.

Clark has spent all of his adult life in the business of killing. He chose that life. He wasn't forced into it. He joined the business of his own free will.

That is not the mindset of a man I want leading our counntry to some semblance of peace.
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. I beg to differ...
Clark has NOT spent his entire life in the business of killing. Ask anyone who has been in the military, we may prepare to fight, but there are very few that really want to go into harms way.

Clark has spent most of his years as a general, following the orders of his CiC, that was his job, but that is not to say he enjoyed sending others into battle. In fact, if you look at his record, he tried to find other ways to defuse conflict. Just as Powell tried, before selling his soul to the the devil.

I have served under good bad bad officers. I was always one to add anything that I had seen that had gotten past those that were in the rear making decisions. I never want to be put into a situation wqhere I have to sight in on a man again, and take him out of this world. Listen to this man, he has the experience to avoid war; and I do not think he would send our young men and women into harms way unless the country was in dire straights.

Just because a man or woman chose the military as a proffession, does not make them killers. Look at the pinhead in the WH now, zip for military experience, yet he was the one willing to kill thousands to get oil money for his buddies.

Clark has brains; bush is a mindless fool that has NEVER had to work a day in his life; much less under fire!

:grr:
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. "Just as Powell tried, ..."
As in My Lai?
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. Precisely WHAT did Powell have to do with My Lai?...
Edited on Tue Sep-16-03 07:20 PM by rasputin1952
Powell did not want to go into Desert Storm....He did not, initially, back bush in going into either Afghanistan or Iraq.

That's like saying Schwarzkopf was having the time of his life pulling that GI out of the mine field!

Powell sold his soul, and there is the rub.

BTW: IMHO Powell may well redeem himself in the future.

One last thing, sorry if this is personal; have you ever served in teh military?
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #49
54. Are you saying
you do not know of Powell's cover-up in the My Lai massacre or that it means nothing?

No, I have not served in the military. The military does not take crips.
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #49
56. powell's first big assignment in the military was an attempt to
cover up the my lai massacre.

he's been a RW waterboy his whole career. you need to get over the myth of powell being some kind of moderate fighting against the evil RWers. he's one of them, always has been.

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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. Powell, did not have the rank to engage in...
a major cover-up.

I might add, that Powell was one of the first to dissipate the rumor that Bob Kerrey slaughtered civilians in a midnight firefight. This was not a cover up, he defended Kerrey because he knew what the circumstances were.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. No matter what rank
Powell did engage in the My Lai cover up.
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lifelong_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #38
46. Do you spit on soldiers and call them baby killers?
Just curious.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. No
I did neither. But I did lose too many classmates and friends to a fucked up war. I also have lain beside a man that was drafted into a fucked up war and tried my best to soothe his nightmares, night after night after night. His nightmares never went away, but he did, permanently.
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lifelong_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. I think you have the wrong impression of Clark
He has said that he believes the use of force should always be a last resort.
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #48
57. I owe you an apology...
I am a decorated vet; and I get defensive when I see vets being, what I confess, to being "attacked".

I have stood beside better men than I, and have received decorations for what others have done. I spend time at VA hospitals, and VA centers, trying to help where I can.

I have seen the horrors of war, I have heard the screams, and helped bury the dead. I can not explain to you what you cannot get from TV or books, the smell of war, the stench of death, diesel fuel, fire, burning flesh. I cannot explain to you why some die, and why some live, or are wounded beyond recognition.

I cannot explain why some will never discuss war or their experiences, nor can I explain why some never cease talking about it.

But I can tell you this; unless a person has seen, heard and smelled the horror, it is difficult to comprehend.

So, I humbly offer an apology for my previous post. I also hold you in the highest esteem for staying with that individual, as a friend, or any other capacity. As a vet, I hope and pray our troops come home safely, and I do shed a tear, each time I hear of a casualty.
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #46
52. wow, a slur. how cute.
run out of debating points?
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starscape Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #38
55. Pastiche...
Edited on Tue Sep-16-03 07:32 PM by starscape
you said Dean wanting Clark was "media hype."

But here's one of Dean's quotes about Clark:

"Most of our conversations have been around my getting advice on defense, and sometime he asks me about domestic issues," Dean said yesterday.

"This is a guy I like a lot. I think he's certainly going to be on everybody's list if he's not the presidential nominee himself."
--

So is he good enough for Dean but not good enough for you?

Look, I'm not going to be offended that you somehow said I "seem to be okay with war." If that's what you got from reading my post, or reading anything, really, it just shows you are not willing to go below the surface of your own strong feelings about this. I respect your principles, and just to set you straight, I HATE war.

But I think your sermonizing and finger-wagging is tired and really doesn't get your point across in the way you think that it does. Just a thought. But if it works for you, go on... and if Dean ends up being the nominee, I'll stand side by side with you andv vote for him (if he's your guy).
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. Is Dean your healer?
Frankly, you don't even know what being
a doctor is about. There are good doctors
and there are bad doctors.

Dean being a doctor means nothing in terms
of being humane. I am not saying Dean is
bad because he may have been a great doc.

However, what you really did what is insuate
that Clark is a killer. Well, that's a load
of bullshit you have been slinging for a while
and it has not stuck and it certainly won't
stick with the broader base of Americans.

Good luck continuing the stereotype that democrats
hate the military and are bigoted against it.

That's great, because without that the Republicans
would have even less to run on.

Sheesh.

:eyes:
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. Did I mention "Democrats"
in my post anywhere?

Btw, I have not been slinging bullshit. I have been giving my opinion about one man and his history.
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #42
50. the implication here is that
that a man trained to kill and has ordered other to kill shouldn't be considered a killer, and a man trained to heal, couldn't possibly be considered a healer.

try wrapping your mind around that, sweetness.

smooches! :*
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #50
58. I'd rather wrap...
Oh, nevahmind!

Glad you understand me, babe.

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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #39
47. frankly you don't anything about Pastishe.
so don't go making judgements about what she knows and doesn't know.

justify it in your mind as much as you want but Clark, as a career military man is a trained killer, and has ordered others to kill, and in modern warfare, that means lots of civilians die.

and 'Dean being a doctor means nothing in terms of being humane' wtf does that mean? is he a veterinarian? what is more humane than healing? you not really a doctor, are you?

anyway, keep looking for republicans to run on the democratic ticket and trying to get republicans to vote dem.

hey how about McCain? hes a soldier and republican! that might get some repooks to vote dem.!



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IranianDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #29
45. no like the humans that died during the ethnic cleansings.
Which you don't care about.
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