Where do we draw the line for ourselves?

[Morose]

Since coming to DU I've found many very worthwhile discussions and a lot of thought provoking essays (Will Pitt, Matcom, and others thank you).

However, I'm also disturbed to see a fairly substantial crowd dedicated to the cheering of shoe throwing, pie tossing, daughter insulting, vandalizing behavior that doesn't do us a bit of good. In fact, it seems like it's exactly the type of immature behavior that's likely to discredit and further marginalize us in the eyes of regular, non-blog addicted citizens.

I don't believe it wakes anyone up.
I don't believe it speaks truth to power.
I don't believe it sways people to our side of the argument.
I don't believe it's justified just because "they" do it.

I do think there's a point where some retaliation is needed when you're under attack. If they shoot bullets at you, perhaps you do shoot back (I'm not a pacifist). If they buy up the media, you buy up some competiting media. If they filibuster, you filibuster.

But you also have to draw some lines. If there isn't some point below which you won't go...then what makes you any different?

So I'm wondering....without the personal attacks on each other...realizing that we DO have to hit back and hit back hard because this fight is for keeps...

What are the limits we MUST impose on ourselves in order to keep some credibility?

I'm not talking about moderation or centrism. I'm talking about basic codes of conduct. I'm talking about not raping their women and bayonetting their children even if they have done it to ours...

i'm talking about being better.

This low post count, proud liberal asks: In the course of this civil/cultural war...what are our limits and how do they make us better than the enemy?

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. One obvious line is STAY OUT of people's private lives

as much as I would love a scandal a la Monica Lewinsky for bush, all Presidents, save maybe Carter, have engaged in hanky panky in the WH... that is not what we hired them for... but it does not matter to me either.

(also we do not have a RW megaphone to magnify these stories either)

But sex, unless it somehow affects national defense.. the press is having sex with a male... oh god that would possibly be a national seucrity risk (due to American sexual mores), I really don't care.

[hippiepunk]

2. Any type of violence where

somebody is hurt is where I draw the line. But getting in someone's face and arguing, maybe even yelling, is ok by me, even if it isn't effective.

[rzemanfl]

3. I would never take advantage of a helpless vegetable, other

than to make a salad or side dish.

On edit, or to make a jack'o lantern, soup or stew.

[Pithlet]

4. I agree with you

Very well written. I'm voting to recommend for greatest. Welcome to DU :hi:

[atreides1]

5. Well

Anytime you have a diverse group of people with different beliefs, you're bound to have a lot of friction.

Where can we draw the line you ask? Well for starters let's see if we get away from name calling, if you have a very serious disagreement with someone, PM them and discuss it among yourselves.

Let's see if we can keep things civil, as much as possible. If you read a thread that upsets you, then step away from the screen, take a couple of deep breaths, and reply not rant.

Okay I agree with you, we don't rape their women or bayonet their children, but we have to cut off the head of the beasts, the down side is that some of those who lead the other side are women, or will hide behind their children, as was done recently in Florida.

If we target those in charge, that's fine, but sometimes you get some collateral damage.

We can't always be better, we can try, but there will come a time when to preserve our families and friends, we have to be just as willing to get down into the mud along with our enemies.

We should also try as much as possible to keep our differences contained within our community.

[Pithlet]

7. It's questionable whether that is effective, though.

What did throwing that pie in Horowitz's face accomplish, other than an a laugh on our side? I don't think that helps us win the fight at all. I really don't see how. We certainly can no longer claim we're above meaningless mudslinging if instances like this continue to increase. The pie was funny. Great. Now, every time I argue that our side is right, stuff like that will get thrown at me. By people who don't really know about or give a fig about the issues. They'll just remember that shit when they go to the polls, because it WILL get lots of coverage. Unlike when their side pulls it. It's not an even playing field. We can't pretend that our actions are equal and effective reactions against them.

This is all about politics, and politics is about selling the image. I fail to see how pie throwing helps our image at all. I'm not saying I feel bad about him getting a pie in the face, or that he didn't deserve it, or that their arguments aren't deserving of that reaction. It's just not worth the satisfaction.

[leftofthedial]

6. there are no lines

there is only truth and survival

[Morose]

10. As long as the two are compatible there may not be a problem

but sometimes we find ourselves having to choose. Clinging to the truth may limit our survival and vice a versa.

I have to wonder though, about all those times when we have ACTIONS that are not really about truth or survival. Seems like we're quite often tempted to engage in short term, emotionally satisfying behavior that doesn't do a lot to advance the truth OR our survival.

And that's what I call spitting into the wind.

Does having TRUTH on your side justify anything? Everything? That seems kinda scary to me.

On the other hand...I do think that extreme measures are sometimes needed. I suppose the question is always...which extreme measure is effective? Torture anyone?

I may have more Gandhi running thru my veins than I sometimes want to give myself credit for...I really do want to cling to that moral high ground....even if it costs me in the end. But then again, something in my moral compass tells me that if I give up that high ground (in both thought and *actions*) I might not end up living in a world i want regardless.

what is that old saying about bewaring when you battle monsters?

[hfojvt]

44. "when policemen break the law

then there isn't any law. Just a fight for survival." "Billy Jack"

[bonito]

8. Good post and there are many here

that work very hard to uncover the truth, and bring facts to lite and never kick below the belt or put out fear, I think thats what makes the difference, I agree attacking creates and acknowledges an enemy.

[MissWaverly]

9. I think that violent behavior strengthens the opposition

Whether by using rude language or threats or violent behavior; it strengthens those who wish to suppress all opposition and really want a dictatorship of the haves with a large
hungry and servile underclass in this country. I really think things are changing in this country. Look at PA, where a small number of voters' protests resulted in a public hearing and the Unilect machines being decertified. We have to take control as citizens who believe in due process and the laws and framework of our democracy, otherwise it will be just mob rule, whether it's republicans or democrats who will grab power and bully everyone else.

[Pathwalker]

11. The line was drawn in Dec. 2000.

This war will soon be hot, the time for civility has left the building.

[Morose]

15. Does your idea of civility = suicide?

I'm not thinking it should mean we can't fight...even fight back strongly. I'm just thinking there is a difference between facing your foe head on and punching them in the face...and holding them down and spitting on them.

In either case...if you can beat them you can beat them. The difference may be one of nobility and integrity preserved for yourself so that when you DO win and rule...you do so with a modicum of respect? If you become so hardened in your war that you are unable to return to civilizatoin...what were you fighting the war for?

[Pathwalker]

52. Where did I say "I" would be beating ANYONE?

I didn't even spank my children! The republicans are the ones who have SYSTEMATICALLY destroyed civility, and are the ones who are planning, plotting, and making damn certain this "civil" war turns violent.

But the Democrats have debated the FACTS, while the Repubs argue beliefs. This has gotten us nowhere, except closer to civil war. They are on a "Mission to create a theocracy" of what was once America, and a Civil WAR is absolutely necessary to that plan - unless the American people just roll over and allow it. If you don't want to see the depths of their plan, that is your choice, but make no mistake - there will be a CIVIL WAR here in America, because some of us will NOT go silently into religious slavery.

If you want to be the person who stands in front of the tank, debating the Republican soldier inside, go for it, but don't ask me to join you.
THAT would be suicide.

[MissWaverly]

16. I believe the time for us is coming if we don't mess up

I believe that the old guard is fed up to the teeth with GWB, the only reason that I think that he survived as long as he has, is that there are a great many people who respect his dad, and thought that
GHB had a major say in his son's policies. Now it has become obivious that this is not the case. I do a lot of surfing, I read that the big conservatives say they will no longer "shelter" GWB. Republicans and Democrats, didn't sacrifice all those years to fight the Cold War, to see America brought to its knees like it has in spite of the sacrifice of many and billions of dollars squandered, I think that there will be major things coming down in the next 6 months.

[UTUSN]

12. Neh

Every single dude in the 2nd row

was better than his Repuke opponent, more intelligent, more self-less, more well-intentioned, and above all, most NOBLE. Most of them took the NOBLE high road, probably because it was IN THEIR NATURE as Dems.

It's too late for us to know that we are IN A WAR WITH THUGS. The argument that we-don't-want-to-SINK-to-their-level is NOT NOBLE. It is CAPITULATION.

We need some STREET FIGHTING. And the street-fighters will SAVE THE NOBLES.

[shockra]

13. I remember reading a very interesting book a few years ago...

called Domination and the Arts of Resistance by James Scott. It showed the many ways those who are oppressed by the government deal with it and show their disapproval, and have done so for centuries. Humor is one of the major, and most useful methods. People need to be able to do *something* to release the tension they feel over being ruled unfairly. If it's disrespectul towards the oppressors then well, that's the point. It's a good way to build momentum towards fomenting change.

[seabeyond]

14. youa re probably over 30

i think age has a lot to do with it

[Morose]

17. Yes, a good way over 30 now :D

I have to question the street fighting anology though...I'm not talking about walking unarmed into a gun fight. I'm talking about the heaping of abuse on an opponent.

It's been my observation (had a rough childhood) that the kid who stood there yapping the most was the one who lost the fight because the other kid who didn't say much just popped them in the face.

It wasn't the kid who knew how to swear the most or spit that won. It was the kid who threw punches and didn't back down.

I see a difference between the two approaches. I'm all for fighting effectively. But I think effective and civil reap greater rewards.

Terrible analogy here but (on the fly): I don't think that a street fight needs to entail myself shitting my pants so that i have a supply of crap to shove in my opponent's face once he's down. I think my energies are much better used in beating him in a way so that he doesn't get up...not so that when he does get up he hates me more than ever. Plus I don't like having shit in my pants or on my hands.

There's your bad metaphor for the day :D

[Daphne08]

20. I'm over 50 and have noticed that I'm out of touch with the

social mores and manners of young people today... even my own sons. The gentility of the past is gone. Gone.

Today, the world is different.

[seabeyond]

30. i am teaching my sons

it doesnt have to be, but it is you are right. again i am going to say. tv video and music, all uncivil, even the kids cartoons. parents so angry. look all around you how the parents, adults behave where is the civility. fed by a bush and repug that attack, a christianity that promotes hate not love. this is where our children learn. they are only a reflection of our society.

it isnt how we live in this house with each other. and they dont desire this. my children asks, what happened to the word nice. it is just gone.

but it can be done

[YankeyMCC]

18. You have to live with each other in the end

Every fight ends. Even seemingly perpetual fights like the current "culture wars" while some for of this will never go away the front lines eb and flow as issues are fought over and decided and different groups come together and move on to the next fight which will be with a different collection of people.

So at the end of each fight you have to be able to live with those you fought.

Keep that in mind and you'll more easily stay on the better side of the line.

[adigal]

19. Honestly, my question is - where will I feel the need

to protect my family and myself?? I have studied the Holocaust for many years, and I wonder, all of the time, if we are seeing the same thing in the rise of the fundamentalist Christians who are intolerant of other religions and beliefs. And how far Bush will go with this. I worry about the Schiavo case, their trampling on our rights. I watch to see if our representatives are speaking up against the republicans. I watch to see if they are taking away the rights of some, and how far they will go with this plan they have of dismantling the judiciary. I have always had the greatest faith in the SCOTUS and I hope 5 of those guys and women are willing to hang tough (hey, Sandra Day, that means YOU, no repeat of December 2000!) to hold back the most blatant grab for power by the executive branch I have seen in my 43 years. I get some comfort from the impression that the Dems are getting tougher and more comfortable calling the republicans out on what they are.

When my reps fold, then it is time to worry. A few pies...well, not mature, but maybe it will make the hate-mongers thing twice before getting on a stage and spewing their hatred.

[Morose]

22. That "maybe it makes them think twice"

Is exactly what I'm exploring here. If it did, then we have one discussion. But if instead it just fuels their hatred further...if instead it diminishes us...then that's a different discussion.

Do we believe that when we throw pies we remain as good a people as we were before we threw pies?

Do we believe that throwing pies achieves a positive political end?

Right now I think the answer to both is no. (but as established above...I'm older so I have funny views about such things)

[BigBearJohn]

21. where does the Boston Tea Party fall under 'basic codes of conduct'?

I've seen some pretty darn good editorial cartoons
that might qualify as a "pie in the face" --

Under the 'basic codes of conduct', where do
political cartoons fall? ... and I've seen
some pretty offensive cartoons.

[Morose]

24. Great question.

I don't pretend to have all/most/any of the answers here. I don't think we have hard data that supports much on one side or the other. We have a lot of anecdotal examples...but maybe by discussion it calmly amongst ourselves we'll come up with a "More likely" scenario.

I'd say the Boston Tea Party had one substantial difference vs bashing the Bush daughters or throwing pies...that being it was an act directed at a thing that held very specific and symbolic value vs at a person.

There is more...for instance the action wasn't viewed as simple immature hooliganism...so it was able to stir the popular consciousness. It was also aimed at an economic institution...perhaps equate it with the Gasoline Industry or Walmart.

I'd say that there is a qualitative difference between er...causing something spectacular and dramatic ot happen to a Walmart or an Oil refinery as part of a large scale political rebellion...and sitting behind the KB as an anonymous internet peep and lobbing hurtful insults at someone's kids.

I'd say there's a big difference in the likelihood of having a meaningful effect if you organize a Gas boycott...or compete with a Network like Faux..vs throwing shoes during a reasoned debate where your guy is already coming out ahead (and Dean was).

So what part did Civility play in the Boston Tea Party? Perhaps it played a big part...because at least as far as it exists historically for us, it was a large, well orcastrated, and popular act that was made against a practice, rather than a personal, small, and unpopular action aimed against another person.

Perhaps that's where I'm beginning to draw my lines. Because as someone very smartly stated above...at some point we do end up living together again. And I want to be able to heal our wounds in the future.

[Anakin Skywalker]

23. I Would Hardly Say

that most DUers are "dedicated" to pie throwings, etc. Some just find it funny that high horse-riding @$$es get taken down a notch or two, that's all.

[Morose]

26. That's good because no one said MOST DUers.

And the sad truth is, using the shoe throwing incident as an example...the High Horse slimeball Perle ended up looking better, not worse, for the action of that one kid lobbing a sneaker at him.

In other words...it had the reverse of intended effect.

[mogster]

47. Well, did it?

Make Perle look better, I mean?

If anything makes this man look good--shoe thrown or cheek kissed, it's something wrong with the media telling the story. Perle is one out of two people in the Neocon 'upper levels' that should have been exposed, thrown out of office and be generally rejected by all sound people of common sense. Par default.

Perle have sucked up the 'political capital' and revels in it. He makes a point out of being an intimidating, mean and aggressive ass, and if you call him evil he sniggers and thinks it's cool.
He's the prince of darkness allright, and love every bit of it.

I see where you're going with this post, but if someone throws a shoe at Perle, it is because he has taken it too far.
And a shoe thrown is one of the oldest means of protest and also not very violent. What could be more honest than a citizen so angered that he takes off his shoe and throws it? Not very premeditated, I'd say.

[Greenbeard]

25. Speak the truth and we can not fail

Lets try sticking to the truth and respecting honesty. We often jump to conclusions for the sake of reinforcing our arguments. While this may seem effective at the time I am afraid it is the very thing that has led us to this point. Of course we all believe that our arguments are better than theirs and most of the time that is the case. But not always.

Yes I said it. Not always. I'm trying hard to think of an example here because they are few are far between. Still thinkng........
Ok. I may have one. There are some things about Bush's immigration policy that I could support. He seems willing to allow for worker visas so that those who want to enter the country legally to find work have the opportunity to do so. Funny how it is the one thing I can find to support him on, many members of his own party are up in arms about (literally) at this very moment. The point is that when we see something done with honesty and integrity (not that this scenario necessarily is) we are willing to admit that perhaps we have just witnessed something the other side has done in an attempt to make our society better.

There are many times I want to yell and scream because I am so disgusted and often times I do, but I try to to keep it to a minimum and either take it out on my car radio or with my other like-minded friends. When we engage the other side we NEED to WORK harder. It is easy to yell and scream and say I am right and you are wrong but it does not get us anywhere. If anything it works to our disadvantage due to our VISION for the world. Like it or not, they speak anger and hate better than we do. But don't worry, we speak truth and honesty better than them and if we are finally able to find our VOICE then they will have no hope.

I know what everyone is thinking. How ignorant. The world does not work this way. We must fight fire with fire. An eye for an eye. But have we not seen this game played out generation after generation. And what do we have to show for it. Same story. Different Age.

So I propose we speak the truth. It is hard. It takes research. It takes restraint. It often times means listening while others spout out their bullshit. Fine. Let them spout their BS and then blow them away with one statement of truth. It won't reach everyone. Some people are nearly if not totally unreachable these days. But it will reach many. Many of our parents and family members are on that so-called other side. Are they unreachable? Maybe some but not most.

The hardest part of this whole plan is, how do we really know if we are speaking the truth. What is truth these days?

So perhaps we just refuse to lie. We just stop. While we may not always know the truth we often know when we are lying. Seems easy enough. From this point on no lies. This also means no embellishment of the truth. For that and a lie are the same thing. The end can no longer justify the means.

We all complain about our politicians on both sides. Why do they lie so much? Why do they sell out to the lobbyists? Why? Why? Why?

Because they can. That is why? We do not demand the truth of them because we rarely demand the truth of ourselves. If we want a true grassroots movement lets start with that one. No campaign. No stupid slogan. Just start speaking the truth. Start speaking philosophy.

Where is our philospher king? We have never set up a climate where one could rise to leadership. In order to do so we must all speak deeper, think harder, and do our best to remove all forms of hypocrisy.

That is what is so disturbing. The hypocrisy in all of this. Lets just try. Each individual. Just try. You know it has never realy been done before. We have never held ourselves up to such a standard. It is time to start calling each other out and be willing to accept the criticism when you are called out yourself. I have a feeling it will spread. A true Golden Age of mutual respect. Those unwilling to join would simply find themselves pushed to the side.

Ahhhhh, the dreams of youth.

Perhaps somewhere. In some age. On some planet.

[Sterling]

27. Some people think we are too nice?

I just read a great thread about how much it sucks some of us think things are not as bad as they are and are very cowardly about the way they fight the evil fuck faces.

[heidler1]

28. I agree, but I can't claim that I've always behaved that way.

If our objective is to be better than the Republicans so as to win friends and influence people we do have to walk the talk. Cheap shots are sometimes funny, but it could very well be shooting our selves in the foot. Spelling words like Bush and Republican might be a good place to start this crusade.

[Batgirl]

29. as a card-carrying, self-flagellating liberal,

even I can't get into the wailing and gnashing of teeth routine over some pie throwing. I just can't take it that seriously. I think it feeds into the knee-jerk fake outrage perpetrated by the other side. Playing their favorite role of injured-victim for the cameras just doesn't fly that well when the worst thing that happened to you is some pie drippings.

Rest assured, the age old street theater of pie throwing is not just a hop and a skip away from violent thuggery -- no matter how much they pretend.

[BigBearJohn]

31. better pies than bricks

[rucky]

32. Malcolm or Martin?

Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery.
- Malcolm X

Violence as a way of achieving racial justice is both impractical and immoral. It is impractical because it is a descending spiral ending in destruction for all. It is immoral because it seeks to humiliate the opponent rather than win his understanding; it seeks to annihilate rather than to convert. Violence is immoral because it thrives on hatred rather than love. - MLK

[Terran1212]

34. In Reply to your "Malcom or Martin"

It's important to notice that Malcom X had a much changed view on the world near the end of his life, after he took his pilgrimage to Mecca. He was still just as horrified by atrocities against colored peoples, but he had a more peaceful view of it all.

[Terran1212]

33. I personally would...

I would not harrass, intimidate, or hurt people. But if I had a chance to disrupt what I felt was an evil process, I defeinitely would act. I'd blow up an unmanned fighter jet, destroy some weapons, block the route of a convoy, things like that...

[feelthebreeze]

35. It is not a question of being better...

I am not here fighting for my country and hopes and dreams because I wish to serve as an example of civility to others. We are a Democracy
under threat and to see this as a polite debate of manners is an act of deep denial for what is happening...here...now. This forum offers an outlet for rage and shared anger against the mounting forces that seek our Democracy's take over and end. Each day I watch this glorious hope and dream of Democracy dismantled and trod upon.

When do our acts begin to lack civility? When we are no longer given the hopes of Democratic citizenship. Those times are approaching faster and faster at a daily rate and at some point, a thrown pie or shoe toss or daughter insulting will seem quaint compared to the very real acts of torture, untold told of death, no representation, election theft and a whole list of abominations that are daily raping both you and I. I can think of no acts committed by our opposition that even begins to match what we have been subjected to so far.

In fact, I am in awe of our incredible restraint and patience and faith. Our very lack of taking this further exemplifies what fine people we are in this Nation and ennobles us to try every course of action that will secure our safety peaceably.
These outlets of rage are of deep import to let our fellow Americans and those who would seek to enslave us to their corporate needs that the rage is building and the masses are a power that must be listened to.
In respect to what is occurring daily I feel your line in the sand is much too delicate.

[Generator]

36. Well

In many ways, these actions (pies or vegetables or whatever-I haven't read the stories-I don't know what that says about me) illustrate just how POWERLESS our side feels. That's all we got. Personally,I do derive some great satisfaction snicky and snarking and using the vilest profanity possible on DU against those in power. I certainly can't talk like this at the kid's school.

I think language is free-it's one of the things that has impressed me so much about DU. As long as you don't directly attack someone-you can almost say whatever the hell you think. And that opens up some reality in what people are really feeling and thinking. It's a fear free zone. I like that a lot. It also leaves room for juvenile, sexist behavior-(the Jenna Bush stuff I find STUPID but apparently it's making somebody's day).

As far as actions in the real world-well someone whom I suspected was more right than left on DU was goading me about my dislike of Bush and I wanted to know what I would do if the great idiot was standing in front of me "Yell obscentities or spit in his face?"

I said I would walk away. Those other things would achieve nothing. But more imporantly I would never be in his space.

I think drawing the line is personal to the person, I don't think throwing pies hurts or helps. It's just theater. Change is what happens by thinking and hashing it out, by acting with the force of many with you, and it takes time.

Still, I'm far from perfect. I have my weakness for a good Condi joke or "mann" Coulter joke. To some-those are sexist. It's always a personal thing, and it's more of a bitter laugh than a rollicking one-so I guess that makes seem okay.

Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke. They are fucking joking up the whole country.

[BigBearJohn]

43. or choke 'em if they can't take a fuck (oops sorry... too much beer)

[checks-n-balances]

37. My thoughts after reading the others: we have to ask ourselves questions

I'm not sure I fully grasped the original question, but as far as the example of Boston Tea Party vs. Pie Thrower: The BTP was an organized group and pie throwers are pretty much random. Which of those acts really made a difference? (Hint: not the most recent one!)

Some shorter questions:

1. What's being accomplished by this action? Does it help the cause, or hurt it (or hurt other Dems, progressives, etc.) in the long run?

2. Who could actually get hurt by this?

3. Could this be widely misunderstood/misinterpreted, or will it make sense to the average person?

4. Will it make a martyr out of anybody on the other side? Or would it maybe give them ammunition to turn back on me/us?

5. Am I doing this for MOMENTARY CATHARSIS - just to make myself feel better/let off steam/release my frustrations? If so, maybe it's better to throw darts at a picture, write a letter I don't intend to mail, vent with a friend, or turn on some good talk radio. Kind of like the fantasies the 3 office workers in '9 to 5' had about bumping off the boss...

For me, if it can pass those questions OK, then maybe it should be done, because:

* WE HAVE TO STAND UP FOR OURSELVES & OTHERS WHO DESERVE IT, and

* WE CAN'T BACK DOWN ANYMORE!!

Somehow we've got to get those last two points across to our remaining Dems in office, or they'll be out on their cans anyway come next election...

(Edited to add clarity)

[MissWaverly]

38. Look last week I wrote to Sen. Lautenberg

about what a joke this investigation on Gannon was and how frustrated
I am about the Plame case, justice delayed is justice denied and this
week there is an 8 page letter written by the dems on the Repugs stonewalling investigations into wrongdoing. I am not saying that I did it, but maybe there were thousands of letters just like mine. That's how Rove bent the MSM towards the right, he got a few dedicated letter writers to flood the station with letters, we are getting our power back. The media is starting to report real news. We will short circuit our progress with violent non-productive behavior that will give DeLay and others justification for beating us back. Like banning this website as subversive, it can happen. Please channel your anger, we need it, we need you to keep the heat on but childish pranks will not pay off for us long term.

[Greenbeard]

40. Thank you

That is what it takes. Keep fighting the good fight.

/Salute MissWaverly

[MissWaverly]

54. Thanks,

I think that we have tremendous power by passing info around and getting organized, remember Sinclair and the anti-Kerry movie "Stolen
Honor" We can do a lot of good if we stand up for the truth and
get the word out.

[proud patriot]

39. That's how I try to be

:hi:

[yurbud]

41. take "advice" right wing pundits give left--and do opposite

"you are too angry"
"stay positive"
"stay on the issues"
"work within the system"

All things they say and don't do.

I would say don't lie or threaten people's families.

Violence is unlikely to win anyone over, and pie throwing is problematic.

It just seems like a juvenile prank. On the other hand, if a lot of people brought rotting fruit, lettuce, and vegetables whenever neocons and their shills show up to speak, and make a nice tossed salad on their person, that would make an impression.

More seriously, civil disobedience and obstruction is the way to go. Literally get between them and the things you want to stop, and make them beat and move you.

You can't count on the press to cover protests, or elected officials to listen to legitimate concerns if they conflict will some big corporate or financial interest.

You just have to make the immoral behavior to difficult, costly, and unpleasant for them to do.

[earth mom]

42. Sometimes people need to blow off steam...

but that doesn't mean that these same people aren't intelligently approaching the situation this country is in and the evil regime in power with extreme seriousness and well planned opposition.

What I LOVE about DU is it's exuberance and passion. Most people here are intensely committed to the cause and many aren't afraid of letting the rethugs (yes-rethugs!) know that they are on to them and that they aren't going to take anything * & Co dishes out lying down. Sure, sometimes it gets a tad heated and maybe the pie throwing is better suited to a slapstick comedy from the 1920s or 30s, but pie throwing is still a statement of opposition that is SEEN & HEARD-unlike most if not all of our other statements of opposition that the MSM chooses to ignore.

The way things are right now, I really don't think it's possible to get the kind of change we desperately need by sticking our noses in the air and being all high and mighty about it all.
If we have to get down and dirty to win, then we need to get down and dirty to win. (edited to add-legally that is)

[PittLib]

45. I think the cheering ...

is in response to an act that we wish we could have done, it's vicarious and cathartic. While immature and ineffectual, but it is hard to deny the fleeting gratification. I find the pie incidence amusing ... but I would certainly never attempt such. I may snicker a bit, then I leave my computer to volunteer for those who I feel best represent us, and am considerate of those I encounter. I believe the majority of us do the same. I feel our leaders generally conduct themselves in a much more dignified and respectful manner than many republicans. These are a few random incidences ... and hardly indicitive of the whole. There is no way to contain that. I agree that we could be much more effective in how and when we choose to fight ... but I disagree that people should in a sense censor themselves in a place such as this. I view my fellow DUers as a family (a great big dysfunctional one, to be sure) and feel safe to say here what I might not necessarily say in a public setting ... DU allows me to vent, possibly preventing any throwing of shoes, pies, etc. on my part. Thank you for your post.

[countryjake]

46. They're the ones who threw down the gauntlet!

I am decades past being 30, & I feel that if tossing a few well-directed pies manages to strike a fear amongst the bastard warmongers that it's not wise for them to try spewing their lying bullshit to us, I'm all for silencing them in that fashion!

When I drag my bones out to march in dissent, during a cold, driving rain, with thousands of others & we get herded around like undesirables & then, not even twenty second's worth of coverage is devoted to our efforts...it becomes time to show our dissent in other ways!

[Lars39]

48. The collective "we".....when really it's up to the individual

to decide.

[thebigidea]

49. so you're saying we're not "regular?" what would be "regular," exactly?

wouldn't it be nice if the other side had whiny fits of collective-we-conscience like this once in a while... wouldn't it be that much easier to beat them if they showed signs of weakness on a daily basis!

I can't believe people are getting worked up over the propriety of a few pies when thousands are being slaughtered. Pies have been slung at bozos for decades, give me one instance of such activity discrediting anything or losing any given election.

politics is and will always be a dirty business - if you want good manners and impeccable sportsmanship, try badminton or something.

[Bridget Burke]

50. Why don't you draw them for us?

I've seen a few posts applauding pie throwing. And a few noting that a President's daughter got very drunk & acted silly. These on a couple of threads among the many.

Specifically--who needs to shut up? And do the "non-blog addicted citizens" even read DU? Why are we already "marginalized"? What did we do wrong?

[Batgirl]

51. Sounds like you're saying

there's not a huge rumbling avalanche of liberal pie flingers? That it's a few scattered incidents and we don't even have to feel guilty for snickering? Methinks you're overlooking the sobering fact that we're talking about a "gateway" gesture that can easily lead to whoopie cushions and fake dog poo.

[Bridget Burke]

53. Weapons of Mass Distraction....

Available right here: www.gagworks.com/

We will lose all credibility & surely end up way beyond the margins....