Ignorance of Historical Anti-Catholic Bias

[patcox2]

I am not criticizing, its a good thing that things have changed to the point that anti-catholic bias seems like a quaint thing of the past. Those who aren't aware should know, however, that there was once an extreme anmount of anti-Catholic bias in the US.

I think that there is too much complacency over this sort of bias in American society, we like to think its all gone. But its not, and I actually think it may have played a role in Kerry's defeat.

Here are some fun facts:

The KKK had as its explicit aim the persecution of blacks, jews, and catholics (Papists, as they would put it).

The Masons are sometimed referred to as the "anti-catholic league." Look up when they started allowing catholics to join (If they have).

When my father was a boy, he was not allowed in the YMCA, on the theory of course that papists were not christians.

I hope we are all aware that Bob Jones III has stated as recently as 2000 that the Pope is the antichrist. I don't believe Bob Jones U accepts Catholics.

Shortly after the election last year, Howard Stern had one of his minions do a bit in which they called up some bumpkin in the deep south and started asking him political questions, about who he voted for. The guy said, as naturally as could be, "I wouldn't vote for John Kerry, he's a damn catholic." I don't think that was a freak opinion. Just a rare honest opinion. Its still out there, and even if its just one out of a hundred, that can be enough to swing an election thats close.

[demnan]

1. Yes, of course it's still out there!

But you have to admit that the Catholic church is also discriminatory against Protestants. I never felt so humilitated as when I walked into a Catholic church with a friend (during the time I was a believer) and was denied communion. I am so against the Catholic church for this reason that I missed my sweet nieces' First Communion. But you just don't treat people that way and expect acceptance.

So you can't say the prejudice is just one way.

I'm grateful we live in a secular country, because in Europe we were slaughtering each other. Neither side is without blame, neither side was above bloodshed.

[Bridget Burke]

10. Catholic Doctrine teaches that the Host is the Body & Blood of Christ.

Protestant doctrine is different; that is, Protestant Doctrine(s). Taking Communion is reserved for Catholics; it was not a matter of depriving you of a commemorative snack. Your friend should have explained this to you.

When I went to a Bar Mitzvah, I enjoyed the ceremony. But I did NOT touch the Torah as it was carried through the congregation. I'm not Jewish.

[theboss]

15. My Dad's family is Catholic; I'm not

So at my grandfather's funeral, I didn't take Communion. It's not my church so I don't know why this is offensive. The priest was actually somewhat regretful that he couldn't offer Communion to the rest of us but assured us that we would all be eating together at the Lord's Table someday.

In my church, we don't actually check to see who is taking the Lord's Supper (as we call it), but it's generally understood that only "members" of the Church should take it, i.e. those who have been baptized.

Not sure how this is prejudiced. Their Church; their rules.

[Zynx]

29. Umm, Protestants can't get Communion in Catholic churches

I don't know why this surprised you. If you are not Roman Catholic - or Orthodox or Polish National Catholic - you do *not* get Communion at Catholic Mass. It's not some unimportant snack.

You can receive a blessing, though.

[Tinoire]

40. Problem is that for Catholics - that wafer IS the Body of Christ

you can't receive communion if you do not believe that it IS. It's not a symbolic thing for us- it's true manna, the bread of Life and anyone who receives it is supposed to be in a state of grace and approaching the altar with a YES, I BELIEVE YOU ARE THE SON OF GOD, OUR REDEMPTOR before you eat it and chew on His flesh as directed in the Bible. It's not symbolic and that's the problem. I believe the only exceptions made are for the Eastern Orthodox because they also believe it IS the body.

Please don't take offense. It's not meant that way.

Jn 6:53-56

Truly, Truly, I tell you, if you do not eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Anyone who does eat my flesh and drink my blood has eternal life, and I shall raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood lives in me and I live in that person.

Lagniappe: Jn 6:53 John uses the same verb to eat as the Jews used in the previous sentence. Yet in Jn 6:54 John changes from the verb to eat(ejsqivw) and uses the verb trwvgw as a masculine singular nominative present active participle(trwvgwn). This verb has a much more brutish connotation which means to chew, crunch, and tear. John uses trwvgwn until verse Jn 6:58 where this part of Jesus’ discourse of flesh and blood ends. I believe John uses trwvgwn to stress the reality of the Eucharist. Jesus’ flesh will be torn in his passion and crucifixion. http://www.cfpeople.org/Books/EuchJohn/EuchJohnp6.htm

[meegbear]

2. In colonial times

some states had a law stating that no one could hold public office in the state if the person "acknowledged the authority of a foreign power". This was to deny Catholics office, the foreign power being the Pope.

[Dervill Crow]

3. Trust Bush to not know he's supposed to dislike Catholics.

Maybe I've found something about him that I can like, even though it's due to ignorance on his part of the full list of people he's supposed to hate to please his "base."

Nah . . .

[patcox2]

6. He plays it both ways.

Catholic groups demanded that Bush cancel his appearance at Bob Jones University. Bob Jones, and the University, are and always have been openly anti-catholic. At the time there was literature on their website that said the Pope was the Antichrist, and for all I know there still is. Bush went anyway.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

4. Both churches have built up a wall around themselves that keeps them

seperate but open to hostilities from the other side. YOu don't win friends and admirers by telling them that they are going to hell.

[patcox2]

9. This general bias has little to do with faith.

Its not dependant on belief, its not because of doctrinal differences. I am talking about a pervasive social bias similar to anti-semitism, which occurs among the religious and the irreligious. It is related to the fact that the majority of catholics came from countries that were considered racially inferior by the germans and anglo-saxons, those being the italians, the poles, and the Irish. You know, polacks, dagos, wops, micks, guineas, spics. Funny, ain't it, that every one of these pejorative terms refers to people from predominantly catholic countries. The prejudice was a mix of general xenophobia, overt racism, and religious prejudice.

[Redstone]

25. Thank you for nailing the real reason why that word was/is a slur.

You distilled it down to its pure and simple essence.

People forget how often the wheel of bigotry has turned in this country throughout its history, and how many different kinds of people it has ground down.

Redstone

[SnowGoose]

5. Seventh Day Adventists

also believe the pope is the antichrist. However, in all the years I was in the church (and went to church-owned schools from 2nd grade through 3 years of university), I never heard anything bad about actual catholics.

On the contrary, the SDA's were always quick to point out that in Revelation (or the Apocalypse, depending on your bible), it's the "image of the beast" that you need to keep an eye out for.

FWIW, they think the 'image of the beast' is the protestants who have carried on the catholic tradition of worshiping on sunday instead of saturday.

I'm not defending their view, I only offer this up as a small piece of supporting evidence for your point that there is/has been an anti-catholic bias.

[RBHam]

7. In those days...

Anti-Catholicism may have been a defense mechanism.

The Inquisition and the Crusades were not viewed as productive faith based programs.

[Bridget Burke]

13. The Inquisition & the Crusades did not occur in 19th century America.

The anti-Catholicism then was purely WASP xenophobia.

[patcox2]

17. Protestant propaganda is still prevalent, too.

In our history classes they sure make a big deal out of the catholic wars and atrocities, but they never mention the protestant tit for tat.

One of the biggest persisting pieces of propaganda is the consistent portrayal of the Spanish colonists in the new world as bloodthirsty beyond belief, in contrast to the gentle English pilgrims who wouldn't hurt a fly.

Of course, you look around today at the portions of North America settled by the english, and there is nary a native american to be found, except tattered remnants still living in the concentration camps the gentle english call "reservations." Meanwhile, the vast majority of the population of the spanish colonies consists of, what do you know, native americans. We are the ones who comitted wholesale and effective genocide, not the catholics.

How the crusades, which took place 1,000 to 700 years ago, and were directed against muslims (and a very few cathars and albigensians), all of which groups are and were next to non-existent in our society, could cause bias among 18th century anglo-saxon protestants, is beyond my ken. Maybe you know of hsitorical forces that made this happen.

You leave out witch-burning, thats not a very effective faith based recruiting technique either. Oh, thats right, the protestant witch hunts are somehow excusable, unlike that big bad evil inquisition.

[RBHam]

20. Exactly. Who writes the history?

Context, always...

[lastliberalintexas]

28. You had bad teachers then

I grew up knowing all about the evils of the Puritans, who were most certainly identified as Protestants. And actually, my teachers tended to discuss the Crusades in terms of Christians v. Muslims. And the Spanish (and other settlers) were simply portrayed as *settlers* who were displacing the native peoples from their lands.

Again, you had some very bad teachers.

[patcox2]

30. What were the evils of the puritans?

Just asking.

[lastliberalintexas]

36. Hmmm,

maybe I just had feminist teachers. :shrug: I was taught that the Puritans and most fundamentalist Protestants hated and/or feared women and acted in a myriad of ways to subjugate them, most notably the witch trials/hunts of New England. In my history classes, it was also the Puritans who were most associated with the decimation of the Native American populations, at least in relation to those of the Eastern US. Though no direct link with Catholicism was stated in connection with the Native Americans of the SW, their problems were more associated with the Spanish and French, so I can see why at least by implication that could be a condemnation of Catholicism.


I don't really have a dog in this fight, since I'm not very religious myself. I am neither a Protestant nor a Catholic, and come closest to being an Agnostic. There are evils inherent in all religions as far as I'm concerned. Though I don't care if you worship a head of lettuce, I only ask that you not try to force me to do the same. And *that* seems to be the problem with any religion, is that no matter how good it seems or how well intentioned it is, in the end, the organization always ends up acting to impose its dictates on non-members or non-believers.

I think people have just been upset lately because it has been their own religion which has been attacked. I don't see this same defense made of the Southern Baptist Convention here. And from an outsider's point of view, there really isn't any difference between the Catholic Church and the SBC- or any other religious organization for that matter.

[patcox2]

42. You had a good teacher.

I'm not catholic, nor particularly religious, either. Nor am I defending the Catholic church, what I am pointing out is that there is a very subtle continuing anti-catholic bias in this country which is a relic of the protestant anglo-saxon worldview which dominates the history of this country.

I never defended the catholic church, yet shockingly, many people have piped up to defend anti-catholic bias, stating quite overtly that "they deserve it." Don't think its shocking? Take these same comments and substitute "blacks" or "jews" for "catholics" and you'd be pretty shocked.

For example, someone posted to the effect that they grew up in predominantly catholic Massachusets and was victimized by catholics growing up. Okay, terrible situation, thats kids, they victimize anyone who is different from the majority, sorry it sucked. But lets take that comment and change the scenario. Suppose the topic at hand were "people are unaware of the lingering anti-black bias in america." And someone responded with "Well, I grew up in a predominantly black area, and the blacks beat me up for being white. so they are just as bad as the racists." That would be real nice, wouldn't it?

The responses here, in fact, prove the point that anti-catholic bias really is the last socially acceptable prejudice. Mention its existence, and what do you get? A half dozen people echoing the traditional protestant talking points that have been used to justify the bias for the last 200 years, and these people are completely unaware that they are perpetuating it.

Its fascinating.

[lastliberalintexas]

46. I don't think that's what

NSMA meant, as I think you'll see when you read her post distinguishing between Jews and the Likudniks.

And I guess I see so much anti-that other religion thinking from ALL sides that I've grown weary of feeling sorry for any one in particular. All religions/organizations do it, and they all cry foul when it is the other side dispensing the attacks. As the old saying goes, they can dish it out but they can't take it. :)

[Ian David]

19. I think there's a difference between Anti-Pope and Anti-Catholic

Just like you can be Anti-Bush without being Anti-American.

And for the record, Pope John Paull II speculated out loud that he thought George W. Bush might be The Anti-Christ.

My personal feeling is that Bush at least THINKS he is The Anti-Christ and is intent of fulfilling that role.

See Rev. 17
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/rev/17.html

Also:
http://www.geocities.com/trebor_92627/Bush.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

8. I knew there was anti-cathholic bias and that it factored into Kennedy's

tenure. I also knew the KKK and John Birchers were as bigoted against Catholics as they were against Jews, blacks and everyone else.

I HONESTLY had never heard the term papist until today... now I know the origin of that term.

Unfortunately, the leadership of the Catholic religion has NOT helped themselves much by uniting politically with the very groups that promoted that bias over the issues of gay marriage and abortion.

I don't think one form of bigotry justifies another, but the pope calling gay marriage evil did his religion no favors with me.

I can despise a group for their policies without joining in the conspiracy theories about them.

[demnan]

Yes and I can love - or vote for - many Catholics

and hold separate my opinion on the religion itself.

[Ian David]

32. Don't despise the GROUP. Despise their LEADERSHIP

Catholics have even less to do with electing their pope than we did in electing Bush.

For example, most of the Catholics opposed to gay marriage that I have spoken to are apologetic about their opposition to gay marriage.

They aren't angry about gays getting married, but they've been told it is their sad duty to oppose gay marriage, and they do so with a heavy heart.

They've been told that God wants it that way, and if they do not comply they will go to Hell.

On the other hand, perhaps a sort of "tough love" approach wouldn't be totally out of line.

Here in Massachusetts, Catholic parishes are being shut-down-- mostly because they've run out of money after paying child molestation settlements.

People are suing the Archdiocese for other reasons, as well. For example, someone donated $120,000 to build some fancy-schmancy church thing and then the Archdiocese announced it was closing the parish and selling it along with Mrs. Moneybag's god-accessory to a condo developer. The story goes something like that, anyway.

For this and various reasons, I believe it can be shown that The Roman
Catholic Archbishop of Boston, A Corporation Sole has been acting against the best interest of the public and should have its corporate charter revoked by The Secretary of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.
http://www.rcab.org/Finance/2003/Financials.html


Chartering a New Course: Revoking Corporations' Right to Exist
... When they hear the proposal to "revoke corporate charters," most people ... from people when you explain that they can revoke a company's charter
http://yeoldeconsciousnessshoppe.com/art120.html

The Corporate Charter Revocation Movement
... to ask a court to dissolve a company by revoking its corporate charter. ... Legal Defense Fund's links to help you revoke corporations' charters ...
http://www.co-intelligence.org/Y2K_Corp_Revocation.html

More:
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=mozclient&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&q=revoke+corporate+charter


See also:

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/resources/resource-files/timeline/2002-08-27-Sullivan-LandRich1.htm

http://worcestervoice.com/civil_actions.htm

http://www.votf.org/parish_closings/financial_primer.html

http://corporationsole.insights2.org/ChurchProperty.htm


More:
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=Catholic+Archbishop+of+Boston%2C+A+Corporation+Sole&btnG=Search


I'll cross-post this in another forum.

Related Thread:
Revoking the Corporate Charter of the Boston Archdiocese
Thu Apr-07-05 04:34 PM
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=226x1599

[TwentyFive]

11. Anti Catholic bias? I grew up in Massachusetts, which is heavily Catholic.

I was constantly beaten up by Catholic kids for not being Catholic. During their CCD classes, the priests called Jews christ killers and said that protestants are not real christians. They were also told to compare faces in CCD classes with faces in public schools, so they will know who the noncatholics are.

When Catholics get into a majority position.....they are like every other religion....they BRUATLIZE people. History has proven this over and over.

[demnan]

12. Well said.

[lastliberalintexas]

16. "they are like every other religion"

Yep, which is again why I'll argue for prosecution under RICO- organized crime, organized (any) religion. ;)



It's a joke, people.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

21. Have to agree with you there-not in my generation, but my parents

were taught Protestants are evil in Catholic school. This hurt my mother because my grandmother was Lutheran and converted. My mother doesn't remember anti-semitism as much because they had a lot of Jewish neighbors and friends.

But no doubt-once the Irish Catholics got power in Mass., they were ruthless.

[lastliberalintexas]

26. That happens regardless of religion

Almost any time you get a group of people who become or are the majority, they try to force their belief system on others, and tend to rule by a tyranny of the majority. I think that's more human nature than anything. JMHO. :hi:

[Kathy in Cambridge]

31. Yup-you're right

and there's some who try to do it here on DU and other message boards too! :P

:hi:

[AngryAmish]

23. When did you grow up?

I'm a child of the 70s and 80s and never heard a priest (or anyone else) mention "Christ killers" in school or church in 12 years of Catholic education.

[Scurrilous]

35. Me either...

...I took CCD in the 60's and 70's. My sister taught CCD during the 80's and my daughter was enrolled in CCD up until recently. It was religion class. No 'Christ killers.' No Protestant bashing. No memorizing faces. Just Catechism.

[Bridget Burke]

14. I was raised Catholic in Texas.

On November 11, 1963, the school PA system announced that JFK was dead & we could go home early.

I don't believe all those cheers were for the early departure.

[TwentyFive]

18. You think those cheers were because he was catholic?

I remember talking to an old Texan who lived in Dallas. Kennedy was hated there (by catholics and non-catholics alike) because he was a liberal, negro loving yankee.

After LBJ became president, Lady Bird made a visit to Dallas and a Republican Women's group got into the receiving line...and spit onto Lady Bird as she greeted people. This was shortly after the 1964 Civil Rights act was signed by President Johnson.

[patcox2]

22. You know, there must not be any liberals in academia anymore.

Because if there were, all you so-called "liberals" would have some knowledge of the philosophical concept of materialism, upon which pretty much all liberal thought is based.

This idea that you can blame a religion for wars and such is so conservative, it assumes a very philosophically conservative view of history.

Marx and Engels would laugh at such a simplistic worldview.

Religions are simply tools used by those with power to incite and motivate and enslave and control the masses. Blaming a war, even the crusades, on a religion, is like blaming the robbery on the gun, as opposed to the robber.

But it is simple, easy on the old thinking muscles, doesn't require much knowledge of social forces, or the history of the muslim religion, or economics, or anything else. Its like a comic book, "The evil arch-villain, Pope-Man, ordered his evil army of catholics to attack, and they did." Yup, nothing to do with population changes, politics, ethnic migrations, invasions and aggression by muslim nations, nah, its a comic book, I tell you.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

24. Oh spare me the righteousness

As to blaming a war on religion being akin to blaming a robbery on the gun, you gotta admit..the robbery was a HELL of a lot easier with the gun.

I DO NOT blame religion, but RELIGIONS much like CORPORATIONS get LOADS of protection already...they can take some responsibility for the perception of their image much as I can.

[patcox2]

34. Thats not righteousness, silly, thats condescension.

Ya gotta learn your insults.

As far as catholicism "taking responsibility for the perception of its image," best I can tell, you are saying "catholics deserve anti-catholic bias."

Have I got that right? You are making apologies for religious prejudice because you think the catholic church deserves it, is that what you are getting at?

You sound just like a certain republican senator recently, explaining that those activist judges have got it coming, when someone murders them.

So anyway, any other groups out there think should "take responsibility" for their perception? How about the jews, are they at fault for the "preception of their image?"

Or are catholics a special case?

Thats why its called "the last acceptable bias" folks.

By the way, this post was a combination of mocking, condescension, and this time, some righteousness.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

41. LOL...let me respond

Ya gotta learn your insults.

As far as catholicism "taking responsibility for the perception of its image," best I can tell, you are saying "catholics deserve anti-catholic bias."

I wasn't out to insult you..in fact, I respect you generally.

NO Catholics don't deserve anti-Catholic bias and I did not say that. What I did say was that THEIR LEADERSHIP set them UP for it.

So anyway, any other groups out there think should "take responsibility" for their perception? How about the jews, are they at fault for the "preception of their image?"

OK as a Jew here's how I see it...I have a problem with Likudniks...some in the I/P forum would call me antisemitic for that even though I am of the same tribe. I realize the Likudniks have created that problem for me so I do MY best to help others realize that most Jews are still politically liberal and are NOT Likudniks. I don't JUSTIFY the bigotry the Likudniks create toward others...nor do I DEFEND Likudnik policies.

[patcox2]

44. I appreciate your polite reply.

I was over the top in that post, you could have taken offense. You make a fantastic point with the likud party and perceptions.

I am not, by the way, a roman catholic. Grew up among many of them though.

What I'd really like to hear opinions on is my theory that the influence of anti-catholicism, particularly in the South (Bob Jones country) was seriously underestimated in the last election, and that there is such an unwillingness to confront the lingering bias that people put their heads in the sand about it.

Same thing with anti-semitism. Did Holy Joe help Gore "win" Florida, but lose Tennesee and maybe some others?

These are quiet prejudices, I am willing to bet they won't show up in polls because people lie, but they are out there.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

50. The news outlets barely dealt with racial bigotry so that's not a shock

I respond pretty forcefully to others at time so I can take it as well as I can dish.

I think being anti the Democratic party is pretty much a catch all justification for all forms of racial and religious bias. The Republicans have capitalized well on hatred in general...unfortunately as with the thread on the Minutemen, it's creeping into our party as well thanks to Rove's southern strategy which now carries over to all states, not just the south.

I wouldn't doubt that Lieberman was a detriment in Tennessee AND Arkansas but I also feel he was a poor choice for VP anyway.

At any rate, I was really surprised about the origin of the word "papist" when I looked it up...even if I HAVE issues with HOW a group treats ME, using a slur isn't my way of dealing with it generally but for Repubs.

[merh]

27. Catholics were mocked and called catlickers

and ridiculed for talking to dead people (saints) and for worshipping and idolizing false gods (Virgin Mary and saints).

Most still believe that they will not be raptured or saved.

[Heddi]

33. My granpa is a catholic and a mason

has been a catholic all his life (70-odd years), and a mason since he was in his 20's.

His dad, who is long dead, was also a catholic his whole life, and a mason since he was in his 20's (I would guess around the 1920's or 30's).

My grandad's grandfather was a catholic his whole life, and was a mason since he was in his 20's (easily the late 1800's)

Most of the people in Granddad's Mason Group are catholic (as are his friends in the Shriners and Scottish Rite).

:shrug:

[patcox2]

37. Your right, its not uniform, it varies among groups of masons.

from what I am reading, the anti-catholic vein is much more prevalent in europe. I stand corrected.

[DancingBear]

38. Catholicism is still viewed by many today as an "elitist' religion

I know many very well educated and socially liberal folks who perceive the Catholic Church as regarding itself as a "superior" religion re: others. When I was growing up (Catholic, in the 50's and 60's) we were "subliminally" taught that our way was better than, say, the Baptist or Lutheran way.

I can recall telling my parents (as well as parents of non-Catholics) that other religions were wrong, and I don't think I was smart enough to glean that on my own, if you catch the drift.

Sorry to upset anyone, but that is EXACTLY how I was taught - religiously speaking. I must also say that most, if not all, of the peer group (and their parents) that I went to catechism, confirmation classes, etc. with still hold that same view today.

[lastliberalintexas]

39. That's every religion, though

I certainly wouldn't say that the Catholic Church is the only one to teach that its way is the one right and correct way. In fact, I'd say that's one very big problem I personally have with any organized religion. But if I say too much more, my "anti-religious bias" might show me for the devil I am! :)

[DancingBear]

48. Probably true

I can only speak from personal experience, and I do not remember my friends of other religions being as cocksure of themselves as my fellow Catholics.

I'm sure there are stories from all sides of the religious wars, however.

As for an "anti-religious bias" - why, Heaven Forbid! :)

[theboss]

43. That's weird, because historically in the US, Catholics were working class

The Irish, Italian, and Polish laborers who flocked to the US in the 20th Century were by and large Catholic and certainly were not "elitist."

My home town is a steel town and is divided in half by a creek that flows into the Ohio River. North of the creek (on a hill) is where the Protestants who ran the mill, the businesses, and the government lived. South of the Creek is where the Catholics who worked in the mill lived.

My dad crossed the line to marry my mom in the 70s. I think my grandparents finally came to terms with that in the 80s. My mom's sister is still a little pissed.

[patcox2]

45. Yes, as I pointed out, wop, polack, mick, all pejoratives for catholics.

The anglo-saxon-english descendants in america had a very real racist contempt for the people from Poland, Ireland, Italy, and Spain. It goes beyond religion, they did in fact believe theere were inferior people. But this attitude is intertwined with historical anti-catholicism. All of these ethnic pejoratives and slurs are directed at people from largely catholic countries. People from protestant countries got a pass.

[DancingBear]

47. I grew up in a very blue collar working class neighborhood also

If I could use a bit of pop psychology here, I might be tempted to say that the "holier than thou" ('scuse the pun) stance of my Catholic brethren was perhaps one way to achieve some type of perceived status unavailable to them in the normal hierarchy (work, education, promotions, etc.).

It was very real, however - I was thinking that perhaps it was the natural reaction of the genuinely persecuted (remember "will Kennedy listen to the people or the Pope?") but I recall the "my dogs better than your dog" part of my religious upbringing starting prior to 1960.

[theboss]

49. Oh, prior to the rise of the Evangelicals, Catholics were far more "open"

Catholics, I think, have also been a lot more open in their faith than traditional, mainline Protestants. My Catholic grandfather rarely went to church, but wore a cross, had religious pictures in his house, had prayer cards in his car, etc. My Protestant grandfather was an elder in our church, but in his home, the only hint of religion you would find is a worn Bible by his reading lamp.

Of course, my Protestant grandfather was a company man in the mill and always made good money, while my Catholic grandfather was a laborer in the mill making peanuts.

With the rise of Evangelical Christanity, all bets are off now.