I was unfamiliar with the use of the term "Papist" in the English language

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

And for that I am truly, truly sorry.

[fob]

1. Are you sorry that you were unfamiliar with it or sorry that you are

now familiar with it?

:evilgrin:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

8. Knowledge is never something to be sorry about.

</highfallutingrandstanding>

[Jilly Beans]

25. Is using the word "Papist" to describe Catholics akin to using the...

term "Fundie" to talk about evangelists?

Wonder if threads about "Fundies" will be locked, too, since "Fundie" is also a smear?

I'm just asking. I've been guilty of using the word "Fundie" myself.

Just wondering if the "no religious smear" rule is going to be equally applied.

[Bridget Burke]

29. No. "Fundie" is a stupid word....

Cloyingly cute & imprecise. Some Fundamentalists have no interest in politics & are NOT the enemy. I don't use it myself.

But it doesn't have the history of "Papist." For those lacking in literary or historical education, the internet has several lists of ethnic slurs.

[Jilly Beans]

33. Funny...

because I'm a PhD in history. Never have heard that the term Papist is offensive...of course, I've never used it.

But my sensitivity to slurs was heightened during my education, especially because my focus is American Indians, and there are plenty of slurs there.

:hi:

[LostinVA]

40. Papist was once akin to using the "n-word"

And those of us with older relatives still very much dislike it. My grandfather remembers being called that, and being beaten up and fired from jobs because of it. It was a very anti-Irish and anti-Catholic word. I myself (when I was still RC) have been called an idol worshiper, not a Christian, worshiper of the Antichrist, etc. after I moved to NC in 1982.

I also have a degree in history, and have read about the slur being used in many places. The Klan and John Birchers especially loved it.

[Jilly Beans]

42. Please see my response to Skinner.

I always appreciate the opportunity to be enlightened at DU.

[Dorian Gray]

70. I'm Catholic.

I've used Papist quite a few times, and I never considered it an insult. That is, until I moved to the UK. I was called a "Papist" in quite the same tone of voice that people would use for minority slurs here in the US. It didn't happen all that often, but it did happen a few times in the two years that I lived there. It was disconcerting.

[Skinner]

32. Ah, yes, the old "equally applied" argument.

I guess we can't forbid the term "Papist" because a lot of people use the term "Fundie." By this logic, we basically have to permit *all* slurs.

"Papist" is a term that gets used at Klan rallies and Bob Jones University. Let's not try to pretend that this is PC gone awry.

[Jilly Beans]

41. I'm not pretending that.

I appreciate the opportunity to be educated at DU. I've never used the term "papist" and I've used the term "fundie" many, many times at DU.

And, under my name Maddy McCall, I've often been a vocal critic of people who have complained of "PC gone awry" at DU. Check my Maddy McCall post history in the Lounge. I started a topic on this.

(I've been on the road, Skinner, where I can't retrieve my password for my Maddy McCall account. That's why I'm using "Jilly Beans" while I'm gone.)

[The Stranger]

73. And what of the term "Islamist"?

This is getting interesting . . .

[fob]

53. I have no idea but I will continue to use the term "Fundie" because it

IS what they are, FUNDAMENTALISTS! I also have never considered Fundie directed at evangeliCALS, they can overlap but "Fundie" stands alone as a descriptor to me anyways. If by evangeliSTS you mean TELevangeliSTS then it probably fits more than it's fair share of them.

[seabeyond]

60. fundie is not a slur, they call themselves fundamentalist

they are not embarrassed by the word fundamentalist. they are proud of this word and define themselves as fundamentalist. fundies is just shortened from fundamentalist. it is not a slur at all. it is who they are.

[BrklynLiberal]

2. I have never actually heard it used in conversation. Here is the

definition I found. IT IS an offensive term.
Papist is a derisive term meaning "Roman Catholic". It was used during the English Reformation to indicate one who believed in Papal supremacy over the Anglican Church. Over time, as the political nature of the struggle between Protestants and Catholics became heated, it became a pejorative for Roman Catholics. The word ultimately derives from Latin papa, meaning "Pope". "Popish" is an adjective for Roman Catholic used much in the same vein.

[Mutley]

23. ummm

i never, EVER heard that term used in a bad way. but thats just me..

[mitchtv]

34. must be you, I've never heard of it used in a good way

kinda like "nigra" it is a slur, there is no other use.

[MADem]

50. I have

But I've also heard it in a wry way, much as that ubiquitous N word is used amongst the community it purports to label, to take the power from it.

It's not a nice word, it has 'associations' with people who tried to keep their boot on the neck of the potato eatin' folk.

[Scurrilous]

27. Link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papism

<snip>

"While considered offensive in contemporary speech, it was a word in ordinary use until the mid-nineteenth century; it occurs frequently in Macaulay's History of England from the Accession of James II, and in other historical or controversial works from that period. It is also a legal term that defines ineligibility for the throne under the current law of the United Kingdom. Under the Act of Settlement enacted in 1701, no "Papist", nor anyone who marries a "Papist", may succeed to the throne of the United Kingdom.

The word is used by some extremist politicians in the UK, such as Ian Paisley."

[MADem]

3. The term used to be tossed at the Irish like rotten tomatoes!

It was usually preceded by "bloody."

[Kathy in Cambridge]

5. Yep-and we're from MA so our ancestors heard it plenty!

;-)

[jonnyblitz]

14. i never use the word but I didn't know it was a slur either. nt

[MADem]

47. Certainly, that, and NINA

AS in: Wanted, female, housekeeper, six days a week. NINA.

Wanted: Female, cook, seven days a week. NINA.

Wanted: Male, Liveryman, six days a week and holidays. NINA.

You see those sorts of ads in the old newspapers all the time. Who, or what, was NINA? No Irish Need Apply.

Fecking bastards!

[Hardrada]

6. It gets the point across

but is demeaning and archaic.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

4. It has bad connotations-particularly to Irish Catholics

that's what the Orangemen call Catholics in Northern Ireland.

But in your defense, some folks jump on every little nuance that could be construed as critical of Catholicism.

[formerrepuke]

7. Also: "Popery" or "Romish"...antiquated derogatory slang for Catholic

[Calico Jack Rackham]

9. Yeah I just found out I'm a bigot.

After 17 years of Catholic education I had this stunning epiphany that I hate everything and everyone Catholic(Means I can't talk to my Best friend anymore). This is my cue to take a few months off from DU.

[theboss]

10. Have you ever heard a Catholic refer to himself that way?

That should tell you something.

[Calico Jack Rackham]

20. Look I'm not going to be chastized by you

or anyone else so don't attempt to talk down to me. I posted something, people took offense to it, and the mods warned me end of story! If I honestly offended anyone I apologize; however, people like you are just trying to get in you last digs so kindly desist.

Oh and to answer your question yes. I have heard Catholics refer to more extreme members of their congregation as such.

[happynewyear]

13. too bad you HATE Catholics

Yeah time for a time out huh?

Jesus! :grr:

:kick:

[murielm99]

18. Please do take some time off.

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[Bridget Burke]

21. There will be many a dry eye.... n/t

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

44. YOU! Thanks for nothing, pal. (nt)

[Bridget Burke]

11. I was amazed that it was still being used....

Ignorance of the meaning of an almost-obsolete word is no big thing.

It mostly shows up in histories of the British Civil War--used by the Puritans. And histories of the xenophobic Know Nothings of the 19th century. Nowadays, its usage is confined to certain areas of Northern Ireland.

But it has always been a term of extreme hostility to Catholics. More recently, to Irish Catholics.

When someone is informed that a term is rude & decides to stop using it--they are being polite! Thanks.

[two gun sid]

35. Ian Paisley uses it all the time...

if that helps anyone understand what kind of people use the word.

[Princess Turandot]

39. Well, if someone wants to keep company with a cast of notables..

such as Ian Paisley, Bob Jones I and Mel Gibson's nut-job father, I guess they could use the word. (This is not a comment on the OP at all.)

Personally, I prefer being referred to as an 'idol worshiper' lol.
Since I don't read anti-Catholic websites, I've never seen/heard someone actually refer to a Catholic as one except for here on DU, although those comments are few and far between.(I'm referring to the comment coming from posters who appear to be Protestants.)

I must go now and brush my idols, since mine have fur.

[LostinVA]

43. I've heard it used in NC

When I was at a WEDDING of all places, in a sermon. I am NOT slurring Southerners. I've lived in NC and VA since 1982. I'm just saying I don't think it is an antiquated word. I've read it in recent Klan literature, too. (they tuck it under people's windshields in my parents neighborhood)

[demnan]

12. I think there is a huge difference

between having issues with the Catholic church and having issues with someone because they are Catholic.

[Behind the Aegis]

15. I am almost 36...

...and I had never heard that term. I didn't know it was a term until I was reading another thread. Just goes to show, you are never too old to learn. :)

[beam me up scottie]

22. Me either.

I learned something new today.

[WillowTree]

16. Term used as a perjorative in reference to Catholics.

And the fact that you'd not heard it until now indicates that you've been hanging with a nice class of people.

[theboss]

19. Well outside of Ireland, it's really not used anymore

Watch "Gangs of New York" to get a feel for the way "Natives" viewed the Irish Catholics.

[lastliberalintexas]

17. I've only heard it used by Catholics

I've always assumed it was a specific Catholic organization or group, along the lines of Opus Dei (even if not RW like the ODers). There are always many subgroups within each sect of Christianity or any other religion, after all.

I've never heard it used as an insult, but I'll take the word of Catholic DUers and treat it as such.

[Magrittes Pipe]

26. In this country, I've only heard it used by Klansmen.

In other countries, the standards of acceptable use of language are different. It all depends on the speaker and the context.

[lastliberalintexas]

31. Well, David Duke was from LA

But the Cajuns I know who've used such a term would *never* have supported him or his policies. So I don't know- maybe it's use and/or meaning varies somewhat by region?

[tishaLA]

24. The Oxford English Dictionary says

it's Chiefly derogatory, but not always. And the OED is the Bible of the English Language.

Besides, it can be used to refer to people, believe it or not, who are fans or imitators of 18th century poet Alexander Pope! Long live heroic couplets!

[izzybeans]

71. It sounds on the face of it, whenever you are ignorant of its history

(like me), to be completely docile. Phonetically it sounds purely descriptive. So I'm not surprised that different regions both within the catholic church and outside it use it differently. It seems wherever conflicts between "reformationists" and catholics are high the term is used derogatorily as a slur. However, given the term was used by Catholics before Martin Luther, it can't be reduced to a slur in all occasions or regions. Papists=follower of the pope-sounds to me like a description. Is Papal a slur? I just heard on CNN someone say Papal authority? That only means something negative if you aren't catholic and have something against them. Laura Bush calling someone a Papist would be a slur. My father who was raised a catholic and used this term, per my discussion with him this morning, to describe himself before he left the church. So go figure. Was he slurring himself? I don't think so. He didn't know it had negative connotations in other regions because it didn't carry a negative weight in his. I won't be using the term because I could give a dime about it. Its meaning is obviously defined in relation to a particular context and so should probably stay in those contexts.

[patcox2]

28. Anti-Catholic bias may have been enough to sink John Kerry

Its real and its still out there.

[Bridget Burke]

37. Yes. These last few days have been enlightening.

Raised Catholic, I long ago lost belief in a supreme being. So I'm currently unaffiliated, although I'm interested in myth, legend & comparative religion.

If I were still practicing, I'd be agitating against several Church doctrines. I totally understand opposition to Church beliefs or practices.

But some recent posts have been made by those who sucked in extreme xenophobia with their mother's milk. Modern Know Nothings.

[Jilly Beans]

46. Yes. In the South, one of the main Anti-JFK assertions was that...

he was Catholic.

Amazing, isn't it.

[DancingBear]

30. I confess ignorance on the term as well

I had heard the term "papacy" many times in conjunction with the Pope, but had NEVER realized the bastardized version of same was such an ignorant and disgusting term.

BTW, I am 51 years of age and a (former) Catholic, so I am surprised that I never knew of it.

I am thankful to those on DU who brought the true meaning of this term to light, and I apologize to all (even though, thankfully, I have never used it) for not being aware of its true meaning.

[supernova]

36. Well, as an English major

the only time I'd ever seen the word "Papist" until today on DU is in pre-19th Century literature.

[Jilly Beans]

45. I'm a history PhD

and I've only seen it in similar context.

And I specialized in Civil Rights in the South for my MA. :shrug:

But I now know that it is an offensive term, and one that I have NEVER used, but I'll be certain to never use it.

I don't like to see ANYONE'S religion ridiculed on DU. I'm going to exercise more sensitivity in all contexts where anyone's religion is being discussed.

(On a side note, the use of Xian has always perturbed me, too.)

[MADem]

51. Xian, Xmas and so on

...would probably be better received if it were written +tian, +mas and so on. It's probably early typewriters and limited typesetting that fecked up that business...since there was no way to make the cross, signifying Christ, on a typewriter, they went to the closest thing, the x, but the doggone x is what you also use to scratch something out.

Road to hell, good intentions, whatcha gonna do!

[Walt Starr]

58. Nope, taking offense at Xian or Xmas is a new invention

The "X" comes from the Greek letter Chi which is tied to Christ.

[Jilly Beans]

59. That may be so, but in context on DU, it's almost always used in...

derrogatory fashion.

[Walt Starr]

65. I disagree completely. It's used as shorthand

It is not derogatory, although thosw with victim complexes tend to take it that way.

[LostinVA]

67. Walt's Right on this one

"Xian" is the SAME as writing "Christian," it's just shorthand. X=Chi=Christ. Exactly like Xmas meaning Christmas. Having people freak out about this is a relatively new occurrence. ie "taking Christ out of Christmas." I actually had someone tell me once it was a Witchcraft plot. Being a Pagan, I took umbrage at this.

I sue Xian alot on DU just as shorthand, like btw for by the way. When I'm being derogatory, I write "Fundie" or "Christian" in quotation marks.

[Walt Starr]

69. I've even stopped using Fundie. I now call them the

Religiously Insane as I have met fundamentalist Christians who are not like these wacks. I don't consider the Religiously Insane to be Christians either, so I don't use the "Christian" thing either as it insinuates they at least attempt to eschew some level of the teachings of Jesus when in reality they pretty much do precisely the opposite of what Jesus said in the Gospels.

[MADem]

62. I agree with your assertion, and your explanation of the origins

The "bad" X IS indeed a new "American" thing, a nonsensical wedge issue for the uneducated and historically ignorant from the religious right, who equate X with crossing something out. But back in the old days, when paper and ink were scarce, it was a very religious shorthand, because they wrote it with their quills more like a + than an x.

More than we probably need to know on the subject: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10488a.htm

[Walt Starr]

66. Thank you, the ignorant who suffer from victim complexes

refuse to understand shorthand.

[tx_dem41]

38. I accept your apology.

Its nice to know that we can all learn lessons even in the midst of strife. Heck, that's what makes us Democrats!

Have a good day!

[cynatnite]

48. It's been said frequently on TV

I never knew that it was a derisive term until here. I had little contact with Catholicism for the most part. I checked a couple of online dictionaries and one said it wasn't an offensive word until the 19th century. I always find it fascinating how word usage can change over the years.

[Kerrytravelers]

49. I didn't notice it, and I'm Catholic.

Personally, I don't thkink it's even the misuse of the word unknowingly. It's when other Catholics post that the burial ritual is part of the Catholic custom and other posters go on and on about how barbaric and gross they are, that seems to be what is riling people up. I haven't been upset, just surprised that more posters don't receive these messages from Catholics here with an open ear.

Hey, I offend all the time. We all do it unknowingly. It happens. We learn and go on. That's why we're here. That's the joy of being liberal- we aren't full of hate and we understand and respect one another. The religious was should be out there, with people who force you to practice their religion, not those who just enlighten or inform you about their own. There is a huge difference! :hi:

:grouphug:

[MADem]

52. What a reasoned statement

Unintentional offense is nothing more than an opportunity to learn. And you're quite right about liberal attitudes, respect, and forgiveness.

I figured out immediately that the term was not hurled with deliberate invective attached, so I didn't sweat it excessively. But hey, we should all never pass up a chance to learn something new--I try not to!

[Kerrytravelers]

56. Thank you.

[Swamp Rat]

54. Já! Acho que ese cara não sabe de onde a bandera Brasileira é.

... más eu, estou morrendo de saudade. Acabo de assistir o "Auto da Compadecida" outra vez... aí, o sertão do Ceará! :cry:

[achtung_circus]

55. I've heard it

and mostly in connection with my grandfather. He was a carpenter/builder in the late 19th/early 20th centuries. His jobsites had a sign
"Bog-trotters, Papists & Broncos need not apply"

Bog-trotter= Irish
Papist= Catholic
Bronco= newly arrived Englishman

This grandfather was a hard line Orangeman and in addition to 3 very nice children produced my Uncle XX, he's the one who told me in 2002 that "the US should bomb the fucking sand niggers into rubble. I mean it's not like they invented the wheel or anything."

Hang on XX yes they did.

Evil and hateful and ignorant, both of them, father and son.

I've always known it was a nasty thing to say, but learned better from my father.

BTW my grandfather was troubled when my parents married because (gasp) my mother's family was IRISH.

[Rowdyboy]

57. I'm another former history major who learned something today.....

We all have heard "papacy", "papal" and "papabile" frequently in the last week. Taken at face value, the term "Papist" wouldn't sound particularly bigoted to someone uninformed on Cathoilic history. I'm sure that few posters deliberately meant to slur Catholics when they used it.

[6000eliot]

61. Well, then

I guess "Whore of Babylon" is right out!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

63. Prior to today, I had never heard the term and assumed it was benign

until I looked it up.

[Catherine Vincent]

64. I must don't get out much, I never heard of it until your thread.

And I'm catholic.

[Bridget Burke]

68. Unless you "get out" to Klan meetings, you wouldn't hear it in Texas.

It's a word dragged from the archives of ancient bitterness. Relevant for studying the English Civil War (Cromwell, etc.) or the xenophobic Know Nothings of the 19th century, I'd thought it nearly extinct.

[lastliberalintexas]

72. Actually, you could very well hear it in SE TX

We have a large Catholic population here, due to the French influence on ths region, our proximity to the Cajun regions of Louisiana, and our own Cajun population in Texas. And the only people I've ever heard use the term were Catholics, and though they did use it in a snippy manner, it was not meant as a general insult to Catholicism. They used it to describe a Catholic who was showing more fealty to the Pope than to the Church- which was always somewhat confusing for me as a non-Catholic, since I've always thought that the Pope basically was the Church? But again, I'm not Catholic. I am a backsliding Baptist who is completely removed from organized religion. And though I did hear derogatory things about Catholics from the SBC (and Methodists and Lutherans and...), even they didn't use the term/insult Papist.

So you could very well hear it in various regions, and it not be the insult that most people here believe it to be. Perhaps it is also that the associations of England with Catholicism and the French connections to the Church are so very different. :shrug:

[Misunderestimator]

74. I have heard the term and always assumed it was a legitimate one.

...and not offensive slang... wow... I'm going to have to rethink my entire vocabulary now. :shrug: I've never used it myself, but can see how I would have... I've certainly read the word many times without understanding its meaning, possibly because the author didn't understand it either? Wow.