Can we not use adjectives like 'bizarre' to describe the Pope's funeral?

[Cuban_Liberal]

I'm sure most posters who start threads including such adjectives don't intend to be insulting or deprecatory, etc., but the fact is that some of us DO find them so (or at least annoying/ill-chosen). The 'wake' and funeral rituals for a deceased Pope are in no way any more 'bizarre' to us than are cremation upon a pyre of sandalwood logs to a Hindu or burial in a plain wooden coffin without metal or glue to a devout Jew. Bottom line is simply this: since at least the time of Neanderthal man, death has been solemnized and ritualized,and what is being done for the Pope is simply our way, OK?

Peace.

:hi:

[Dookus]

1. Saying something is bizarre

isn't an insult. Some of this IS bizarre, by any definition.

[Cuban_Liberal]

3. No, it isn't, 'by any definition'.

:eyes:

[Dookus]

13. Your eyes are gonna stay that way if you

keep making faces.

I looked up a few definitions - they all convey "unconventional, odd (especially relating to appearance), unusual."

Some of these rituals are certainly all those things. But again, it's not an insult to say something is bizarre. It says as much about the cultural context of the speaker as it does about the subject.

[theboss]

40. So, by definition, this is not bizarre

It is like every other funeral for every other Pope. Therefore it is convential.

While it's scope is huge, it is just like every Catholic funeral I have ever been too. Therefore, it is not unusual.

The only thing "odd" is the size of it. But when you consider that people have been lining up to see Lenin's corpse for decades, it really loses some of its "oddness."

[Susang]

43. You must have been to some crazy funerals

There are standard Catholic sacraments and rituals that are performed during a funeral and this in no way approaches the dozen Catholic funerals (including the recent funeral of my grandmother) that I have attended).

[theboss]

48. Well, half of Poland wasn't at your grandmother's funeral

No offense of course, but when you strip away the sheer scale of it, it's just a typical Catholic funeral.

[Susang]

81. You obviously don't know my last name

It was about two thirds of Poland.

[greatauntoftriplets]

94. I was thinking that, too.

But I do know your last name.

[Susang]

100. LOL

For you, I post this picture of Mr Pierogi, from Pierogi Fest 2004 (I can hardly wait for Pierogi Fest 2005!):

[greatauntoftriplets]

117. A nice plump one at that....

When is Pierogi Fest?

[theboss]

99. I've been to a few of those

The Catholic Church in the town next to my hometown was predominantly Polish. My town was predominantly Italian.

And for some reason, their nuns were ten times as violent.

[kliljedahl]

101. But much better bowlers

http://www.kliljedahl.net

[Susang]

103. Yes, I'm sure they were

And I'm sure the Italian nuns were saints.

:eyes:

Here's a picture of the Pieroguettes to make up for those mean ole Polack nuns. :cry:

[theboss]

112. The Italian church had German nuns

They were just out of the 16th century but not particularly violent aside from the old-school ruler on the knuckles.

My current girlfriend is Polish and we were talking about the differences in "Polish" Catholic schools versus "Italian" Catholic schools recently so this is fresh in my mind.

[Susang]

121. Well, I went through 12 years of Catholic schooling

And had Italian, German, Irish, Polish, Spanish and South African nuns. I can't say that I noticed any difference in violent tendencies between the various ethnicities.

[MollyStark]

106. Was your grandmother the Pope?

If not then it is not unusual that she wouldn't have the typical or conventional Pope funeral.

[Susang]

115. I think you might have missed the point

The other poster was implying that the Pope's funeral wasn't all that different from the usual Catholic ceremony. I was saying that it was. My comment about two thirds of Poland showing up was a joke. ;-)

[Dookus]

44. if you compare it to other Papal burials

no, it's not. Bust most people here aren't very familiar with other papal burials, but they ARE familiar with American customs, and to many, these rituals seem bizarre.

Again, it's not an insult - it says as much about the cultural context of the speaker as it does about the subject.

[Goldmund]

2. I think all those rituals are bizarre.

It's nothing against those who find them perfectly sensible. Why do you get insulted? I find the rituals bizarre, you don't, I like jalapeno peppers, you don't. Whatever.

:hi:

[Calico Jack Rackham]

4. I think the Top Secret

recipe for "Pope Preperation Yet Not Quite Embalming Procedure" is pretty damn Bizarre. C'mon folks this was just a man. What the hell is so secretive about the "embalming" procedure.

[Mrs. Overall]

5. Great Post!!

Thank you!

[Cuban_Liberal]

6. You're welcome.

:hi:

[theHandpuppet]

7. For me, the following comparison is most striking

Jesus Christ, secretly buried in a bare, rocky tomb donated by a faithful follower, his body swathed in simple homespun, while his equally modest disciples (including women) come to lovingly annoint the body with oils.

Compare that with the funerial procession for this Pope, in all its earthly splendor, riches and finery. The powerful, the hypocrites and the wealthy get front row seats for the show.

At least Jesus knew the true Kingdom was in heaven, His spirit in earth but not of the earth. I truly wonder what He would make of all this?

[VelmaD]

9. excellent point

:applause:

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cuban_Liberal]

14. Thats such horsehit.

:eyes:

[Calico Jack Rackham]

19. Yeah if you say so.

You should talk to some of the crazy Catholics I know. The level of of mindless following that most have for the Pope borders on idol worship.

[Beware the Beast Man]

118. Welcome to DU, Mr. Robertson!

:toast: Have a "Death Cookie"!

Time for me to worship my idol of the Virgin Mary/Isis/Aphrodite archtype!

[tx_dem41]

32. Wow, an example of old-school anti-Catholicism that I haven't seen...

since the hey-day of the Know-Nothing Party. Classic stuff. :eyes:

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cuban_Liberal]

39. And who says we aren't?n/t

[Calico Jack Rackham]

47. None of the Catholics I know

and I know a hell of alot.

[Cuban_Liberal]

61. So do I.

Like my entire family.

[tx_dem41]

46. Wow, more classic stuff....

Keep those classics rolling in!

You really are in tune to the Know-Nothing party platform.

http://search.eb.com/elections/micro/324/88.html

One thing to point out, they were electoral losers (1 state in 1856). So please, don't spoil the Democratic Party's chances with your witty little sayings. Perhaps another party is in your future.

[Calico Jack Rackham]

54. LOL

I know Catholics hate dissent due to their dictatorial belief system, but damn bro your taking this to another level.

[tx_dem41]

55. I'm not Catholic....

I've just got class....IMHO, of course.

[Calico Jack Rackham]

59. Thats the second time you've stated what a classy person

you are in this thread. So criticizing catholic idol worship is now considered classless? Thanks for playing.

[MollyStark]

114. I am not Catholic and I don't much like Catholic doctrine regarding women.

"So criticizing catholic idol worship is now considered classless?"

But I wouldn't say the above statement of yours was exactly Classy. The "idol worship" was particularly not full of class.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tx_dem41]

70. Count me as an Atheist that agrees with you. n/t

[Calico Jack Rackham]

71. That post wasn't a reply to you

look at the numbers.

[Goldmund]

73. I know it wasn't a reply to me.

I see bizarre rituals, I shout: "bizzare"!

I see a bigot, I shout "bigot!".

Or, "full of shit" as I termed it. Same thing.

[Bridget Burke]

52. I thought "Papists" went out with Cotton Mather...

Although Ian Paisley might still use that old-fashioned word.

[Magrittes Pipe]

93. Nah, the Klan said it more recently than the Know-Nothings.

Hm.

[theboss]

41. Papists? Is it 1864 again?

Who are the "Know-Nothings" running for President next year?

[Calico Jack Rackham]

50. Why do you guys get so butt hurt at the

word Papists?

[theboss]

57. The last people who said it thought Catholics were traitors

Why don't just call black people "darkies" while you are using expressions from the 19th century?

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[theboss]

91. Not racist, but bigotted

And it's an expression no one aside from Birchers has used in decades.

[tx_dem41]

58. Perhaps, it reminds some of us of other epithets used by the same...

people that historically used the term "Papists" as an epithet. I would repeat a few of those, but I don't have the stomach to right now. Let's just say that one such epithet starts with an "n" and ends in an "r".

Bigotry is bigotry...plain and simple.

[Calico Jack Rackham]

67. See the above post.

It aplies to you to. What race is catholicism again?

[tx_dem41]

74. Ahh...there you go...showing that class again.

We just love you for that, Calico Jack. :eyes:

[Calico Jack Rackham]

79. Sorry tx but if you are going to start

calling someone names then you know the score Mr. classy.

[tx_dem41]

96. The reference to "class" is not a "name" actually...

Its a character trait really.

An example of a name would be ...ohhh..."Papist" for example.

Pot meet kettle.

[Bridget Burke]

85. You will find "Papist" in every list of ethnic slurs.

Here's one; I'm sure you'll enjoy the list & enrich your vocabulary even further: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_slur

I'm sure you'll also enjoy this link: www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=oaths

You haven't used Romanism or Popery yet. But you will.

edited to add: The definitions generally point out that Irish Catholic is often meant by "Papist"; it is an ethnic slur, as well as a religious one.

[Enraged_Ape]

20. theHandpuppet shoots and scores

I agree with 100% of what you said.

[BelleCarolinaPeridot]

25. Good points indeed .

Especially here : The powerful, the hypocrites and the wealthy get front row seats for the show.

[Amaya]

83. Thank you!

excellent point, indeed.

[tx_dem41]

8. Oh, c'mon.....

its fun to knock the faithful. Quit ruining all the fun. :eyes:

[Dookus]

10. Not nearly as much fun

as some faithful have trying to find offense everywhere, even whre none exists.

[Cuban_Liberal]

12. Oh, fuck it!

No point in tring t as for civility, it seems.

[Dookus]

16. A call out?!

I'll meet you behind the swings after school.


THAT'S a call out!

[Cuban_Liberal]

18. Yeah, right.

As if it wasn't perfectly clear who your post referred to...

:eyes:

[Dookus]

21. It was referring

to people who find offense, even where none is intended. It's pretty common around here.

[Cuban_Liberal]

31. So are people who find it neccessary to piss into certain threads...

Those are real common, too.

[Dookus]

42. It's a general discussion forum

What you call "pissing in a thread" others call "posting".

Characterizing any disagreement as "pissing in a thread" is silly.

[Cuban_Liberal]

45. No, it's accurate.

There's a difference....

[Dookus]

108. I don't think

I'll abide by your definition of the term "accurate". I don't think it's accurate.

[tx_dem41]

17. I'm not one of the faithful....so I wouldn't know about "finding offense".

I just know about class.

[MollyStark]

124. You are right

It's not insulting when I tell people how bizzare it is to see gay men kissing either. No insult intended.

[jpgray]

15. Just let me know when it's safe to have an opinion again

:shrug:

[Warpy]

22. They're planting him tomorrow

So I'd think Saturday will be a fine day to start having opinions again.

[Goldmund]

24. If only

The circus continues. White smoke, black smoke. The new pope. Will he be Italian or will he be South American? bla bla bla bla.

By the time all is done I think you may forget HOW to have an opinion.

[jpgray]

29. I come here expecting to read some things that I might not like

I think it's good for me to read them. I guess not everyone feels the same way. Or, from another viewpoint:

"Many have spoken out against me, saying wicked things, and hearing them I said to myself: it is the healing of the Lord, and he has sent them to cure my vain soul."

[Walt Starr]

28. apparently, it's no longer safe having an opinion on DU

about anything.

[Swamp Rat]

23. flame bait n/t

[Zenlitened]

27. That was my first thought, too. Telling DUers what they can and can't post

... is pretty much guaranteed to start a fight.

Oy. :crazy:

[Blue_In_AK]

26. Cubal Liberal, I'm sorry for your loss.

I'm not Catholic, and I don't personally understand all these rituals, but I respect your right to feel sad at this time.

[Goldmund]

30. Who doesn't??

I find your post totally superfluous.

[tx_dem41]

36. Just look around. n/t

[Goldmund]

49. I'm looking

I'm not seeing anything.

I see people having opinions about the Vatican and the circus currently surounding the pope's death. I myself have some pretty fucking negative opinions about the Vatican (well, any organized religion, but the Vatican has surpassed them all in the level of organization and financial and political power they hold). Does that translate to negativity toward Catholics, or an infringement of their right to be sad about whatever they want to (or happen to) be sad about? Of course not. One can have opinions that don't change when somebody dies and somebody's sad about it, don't you think?

[tx_dem41]

60. Keep looking...you're missing the revival of the Know-Nothing Party...

up the thread.

[Goldmund]

77. LOL I have seen it

That is total bigotry, you're right.

I still think the pope's funeral is bizarre. And I still think the Vatican is a mafia.

But I also think that Calico Jackass is a bigot.

[tx_dem41]

102. I noted that up above.

I guess, when I defend Catholicism against the recent attacks from some on this forum, I am addressing the more blatant examples as illustrated up-thread. As for the more "innocuous" comments, I feel sometimes the uglier stuff is bubbling just beneath. I'm not addressing that at your comments, please note.

Good to meet you!

[Goldmund]

105. I think we need to be careful about calling out the "stuff bubbling just..

...beneath". I think that the danger of supressing free expression is higher than the danger of allowing bigotry to keep "bubbling just beneath".

Good to meet you too!

[tx_dem41]

111. I would agree that I am guilty of making a general assumption...

that could be wrong in many, if not most, cases. As to the "free expression" comment, I don't believe that Cuban_Liberal was asking for a ban, just some respect and consideration at this moment of grief for many outstanding members of DU. I love "free expression". I also love showing my fellow Democrats a bit of respect, especially when its so easy to do.

[Cuban_Liberal]

123. You 'get it', tx_dem41.

That's all I ever asked for.

:thumbsup:

[Kerrytravelers]

34. Thank you, Blue in AK

No one says not to have an opinion. But why are we insulting one another?

Rereading Cuban Liberal's post, I don't see anything about no opinion, just someone making a statement about Catholic Tradition.I'ts just a thing that Catholic's do.

I realize that most of the posters don't mean to be disrespectful or make fun of. I know you're just making jokes, but sometimes, some of the jokes come across wrong to some of the Catholics. I've posted things that come across wrong before. I don't take it personal or that I"m not allowed to have opinions. Often, I am surprised that someone has taken something offensively, especially when that was not what was going through my head when I wrote it. But I leanred that perhpas it is either a sensitive area for some or my tone was not what I intended.

[RevolutionaryActs]

33. I don't think it's meant as offensive.

It's just that people have different views then you. They find it different then anything they're use to.

So they maybe find it "odd", or "bizarre". That's their view, it's just something that isn't practiced in their culture and if you don't find it bizarre, what does it matter what other people think? Especially if they really don't intend it to be rude, or insulting. :hi:

[Cuban_Liberal]

37. I agree, and said as much in my opening post.

:hi:

[Zenlitened]

51. Then why call for a ban on certain words?

If you know that it's contextual, and not meant as an insult, then I really don't know why you felt the need to start this thread at all.

:shrug:

[Cuban_Liberal]

56. I didn't ask for a ban.

It might not be too much to ask for people to be somewhat sensitive, though, or would it?

[Zenlitened]

65. Well, but they weren't being insensitive, though.

That's where I'm confused. Although I guess it would be insensitive now, now that you've asked us not to use certain adjectives.

[Cuban_Liberal]

68. Ya know, it's amazing how simple English gets twisted...

My opening post is perfectly clear, although some folks insist on reading into it what plainly isn't there.

Bye.

[Zenlitened]

76. What part of your post have I gotten wrong?

Was it the subject line?

Can we not use adjectives like 'bizarre' to describe the Pope's funeral?

Or was it when noted it would be insensitive of us to continue using such words, now that you've asked us not to?

:shrug:

[Cuban_Liberal]

78. Perhaps the very first sentence?

"I'm sure most posters who start threads including such adjectives don't intend to be insulting or deprecatory, etc., ...."

:eyes:

[Zenlitened]

86. I know. That's what I noted in my post #65.

To which you responded that I was twisting your words.

My original question was, why ask for a ban (as in "not use") certain words, even when you acknowledge that the people using these words were not trying to be insensitive.

To which you responded that you weren't asking for a ban, you were asking that people display sensitivity by not using certain words.

[Cuban_Liberal]

92. your post makes no sense at all.

Talk about arguing in a circle!

:eyes:

[Zenlitened]

97. Really? Arguing in a circle, indeed.

You ask us not to use certain words... but deny it's a ban of any form.

You accuse us of insenstivity... but acknowledge the posters didn't intend to be insensitive.

So what is it that you want? Shall we all ponder, before posting, whether our words will irk someone or some group on DU?

Given the prevalence of people whose sole goal in life seems to be the taking of offense, I think this message board would grow very silent very quickly if that that was the standard.

No criticism would be allowed, because what one considers criticism another is bound to view as an insult. Humor is right out, I suppose -- what's funny to one person is rude to another. Simple observations? Nope, one's opinion is a whithering attack to another.

How about this... why don't we all PM our posts to you, before hitting the "Post message" button? That way you could make any necessary changes, or simply veto the post entirely, to make sure no one ever has to endure statements with which they disagree?

[Goldmund]

69. I think it would.

On the other hand, I don't think it would be too much to ask of you to let people express their impressions as they see fit. If they offend you then skip over them. But to ask others to filter their expression according to your, in an absolute sense, arbitrary definition of "sensitivity" I think is too much to ask, yes.

[Cuban_Liberal]

72. Well bully for you. n/t

[RevolutionaryActs]

64. I implore you

Can you see how your post might be seen as offensive to some? You're asking people to censor what they say, because you, don't or others, don't like it(if I'm wrong on how I'm interpreting you OP, I am sorry). Asking people not to use, what they see, as unoffensive words to describe something that is different to them, just because you don't like them is infringing on their freedom of speech. I ask, what words would you have then use? For something that is not a normal occurrence to them?

If someone posts those words in their thread, I would just ignore them. Now if someone goes out of their way to post in a thread of yours about the Pope, then it might be considered rude, but for the most part people don't do that.

I think most people are just stating that it's not normal thing in their belief system or culture, people using words like that say just as much about them, and as it does about the culture on which they are commenting.

[RetroLounge]

38. Oh Jesus Christ on a trailer hitch

:eyes:

RL

[tx_dem41]

53. Yep. I'm sure I saw ....

Cuban Liberal and a whole bunch of other Catholic DUer's towing that trailer. :eyes:

[Susang]

88. No, just a rather large cross

:nopity:

[tx_dem41]

98. Wow....DU sure can get nasty at times.

"No pity", huh. Pretty sad commentary that you feel that way about fellow members of DU, like Cuban Liberal, whom I haven't seen attack anyone's faith or faithlessness.

[Susang]

107. You haven't seen?

Blind much? :sarcasm:

[tx_dem41]

113. Please, point out an example...

of that poster attacking someone else's faith or faithlessness. I don't live on the boards as some do, so I surely could have missed something.

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tx_dem41]

116. I'm not defending everything a poster has ever said...

I'm keeping myself to the specific topic at hand. If a poster made comments that I felt were disrespectful to women's rights specifically, I would be one of many that would jump all over them.

I will say, that the poster on this very thread has openly stated that they don't agree with everything the Pope had stated in the past.

[beam me up scottie]

82. This is all your fault,

isn't it?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

89. Prime example of why "politically correct" is so stupid.

Language policing gets on my nerves.

[beam me up scottie]

104. Stop using the word "stupid"!

(kidding)
:hide:

[Walt Starr]

63. But there's a LOT of bizarre shit going on!

Like, keeping the body around for days and announcing it hasn't been embalmed. That's pretty damned bizarre right there! I don't know of anybody who wouldn't consider that bizarre! I'm just glad that I'm not anywhere near it, I can tell you! It's bizarre shit like that which leads to disease, not to mention fainting spells!

Seriously bizarre shit, if you ask me.

[Bridget Burke]

75. Some people are culturally ignorant.

They are unaware of different practices going on in their own country--much less anywhere else. A course or 2 in anthropology might be useful.

And at least one poster on this thread has shown the source of what distresses you--bred-in-the-bone anti-Catholicism as practiced by the most close-minded of xenophobic bigots. They may claim disagreement with Catholic doctrine--quite undertandable! But sometimes they let the reasonable mask slip.

Of course, there's also nervousness at the sight of death. Some groups are better at ignoring the reality of our common fate. So they joke about it. Of course, my own ancestors often joked about it--sharing a drink or 2 while waking the dead.

[porphyrian]

80. I won't censor your speech if you don't censor mine. - n/t

[Beetwasher]

84. Please Then Provide A List of Adjectives You Find Acceptable

So that we may all bow to your whimsy, yer majesty. :eyes:

No, it's not ok. Stay off public message boards if other people's opinions offend you.

I think the whole pope thing is bizarre, silly, pompous and vomit-inducing. And you know what? I otherwise probably would have never said a word about it if it wasn't for your ridiculous post, but when people presume to try and shove their personal peccadillos down my throat I usually do exactly what they don't like, just to piss them off.

[Bouncy Ball]

122. I was JUST saying, at a little gathering of Austin DUers

that I would NEVER reveal on DU what pisses me off most. Why? Because you can be gauranteed people are then going to knock themselves out to do it. It doesn't make them right to do it, but I have noticed that dynamic here and in real life.

[murielm99]

87. Okay.

I understand. I am sorry for your loss. Sincerely.

:hug:

[leftofthedial]

90. sorry dude, it's pretty weird.

[Bouncy Ball]

95. To be honest, I'm afraid to say ANYTHING about the Pope

or his funeral at this point. Seriously. So that's it. That's all I can say. That I can't say anything.

:shrug:

[beam me up scottie]

110. Stop saying anything!

I thought "anything" was on the #$*^@#&^!#&%* word list!
Pay attention!

[sniffa]

119. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

can we aLso not use the coLor bLue any more since i don't Look good in that coLor.

[DancingBear]

120. Enough already!!!!!!!

You're Catholic - we get it.

I used to be - hell, I was an altar boy - but I left due to some of the most unconscionable bigotry masquerading as love of God that I had ever seen. ANYWHERE.

These constant "tsk-tsk, don't say bad things " re: the Pope are getting quite tiresome, to say the least.

If the thread bothers you, or anyone, well you know how to fix it.

[Bouncy Ball]

125. Hide thread, ignore certain usernames, hit alert when

someone posts something offensive?

Did I get them all? What did I win?

:evilgrin:

[Skinner]

126. I think, perhaps, it's time for a break from this thread.

I'm going to lock.