I don't think anyone on DU ever supported racism re: the "Minutemen"

[republicansareevil]

I think there were some people who looked at the background of the specific individuals involved in the organization, the rhetoric coming from some of the group members, the fact that some/many of them were going to be carrying guns, the fact that Border Patrol stated they didn't want or need the group's help, and the fact that some racist organizations were supporting the group and concluded that having these people out on the border was a very bad idea and that things were not going to turn out well. As one DUer (I forget who) said, it didn't take Nostradamus to see this coming. ("This" being the allegations that members of the group were harassing people.

On the other hand, I think some DUers took a more abstract view of the situation: they felt that there was nothing inherently wrong or racist about the group's general premise -- that our borders are poorly controlled. They felt there was nothing inherently wrong or racist about the group's stated intentions -- to patrol the borders and report sightings of illegal crossings. And many probably even felt there was nothing inherently wrong with carrying a gun. And, for many liberals, the innocent-until-proven-guilty concept is an important value to be applied to all areas of life, not just the courtroom.

I think that these have been the two major viewpoints that have been argued back and forth over the past few days. Arguably, both viewpoints are grounded in progressive principles, and they are not actually even mutually exclusive. Right-wingers must be enjoying the conflict this whole issue has caused for us on the left. Ironically, I think both "sides" on the left probably agree on much more than is apparent. I think we can mostly agree that seeing unprotected borders as an important concern is not necessarily racist. I think we can mostly agree that acknowledging the negative effects illegal immigration can have on worker wages is not necessarily racist. I think we can mostly agree that illegal immigrants do pump some money into the economy -- although not all of us see that as a good thing so much as further exploitation of them. Most of all, I think we can agree that Mexicans and other immigrants, legal or illegal, have value as human beings. We can sympathize with the economic conditions that compel many to seek employment here even if they break the law to do so. We can also hold in contempt the companies that exploit illegals and also hurt Americans in the process.

We can differ about the economic impact of illegal immigration and employment. We can differ about the best way or ways to solve the issues of illegal immigration. But in the end, I think most of us agree on much more than we realize.

[LdyGuique]

1. thank you -- I'm tired of being called a racist or bigot when

my real feeling is that the Minutemen are just another form of activism -- activism to shame the Government into doing what it should have done after 9/11 -- secure our borders. I'm also upset that the entire inbound container shipping is so poorly controlled.

[Karenina]

9. Container shipping IS a valid issue

Mexicans are not.

[papau]

2. I agree :-)

:-)

[mattclearing]

3. I saw one guy who was all about "We gotta support this" but he got

shouted down really quick, thankfully.

God bless DU.

[Pithlet]

4. I'm not so sure

I've seen enough misinformation spewed here about Mexican immigrants. I'm not naive enough to think that racism doesn't exist here at DU. I've seen it many times in other issues discussed here as well.

Innocent until proven guilty is indeed a progressive concept that I embrace emphatically. What about the non-white people these Minutemen confront? What happened to innocent until proven guilty there? Why can't we stand up for THEIR rights as well? I think it is perfectly acceptable to watch the actions of these people and not just assume they're some harmless group that only wants to protest.

It is because I believe in innocent until proven guilty that I think what the Minutemen are doing is wrong. I don't care if they're technically not breaking the law, although I think it is arguable that they are. I think there is plenty of evidence pointing to the fact that their actions are based on racist ignorance, and all they mean to do is intimidate and harass anyone they think looks like an illegal. And people defending that appear to be missing that.

[republicansareevil]

5. Well, of course there are always a few bad apples.

I'm sure there are anti-Mexican bigots on DU, but I'm also sure they're a very small minority. I think that most of the controversy on DU regarding the "Minutemen," illegal immigration, and other such issues stems not so much from differences of opinion so much as from a fundamental misunderstanding of each other's positions.

[Pithlet]

6. A fundamental refusal to understand

that has been my experience in arguing the other side. I think the other side doesn't WANT to understand because it is easier to look at illegals from Mexico as just a big group of unwanted trouble. It doesn't hurt that they "don't look like us". It's too much effort to look into it any deeper than that. I'm sorry, but they may not see it as bigoted, but I'd be willing to bet a huge sum of money that 95 % of the DUers arguing for the Minutemen and against Mexican illegal immigrants wouldn't be so upset if there were an influx of Canadians trying to get into our country. They certainly aren't upset about any of the other immigrants trying to get it. Where are all the threads decrying the Asians, or Eastern Europeans, or Indians? Nope. It's the Mexicans. That is based in bigotry, whether they want to admit it to themselves or not.

[Dutch]

7. well said. unfortunately hurling around words like "bigot" ...

...is so much easier than putting forward proper arguments some people are always gonna take the lazy option and just act like reverse freepers. It's extremely frustrating for those of us who are largely ignorant of the subject and keen to learn from a reasoned debate.

[LoZoccolo]

8. It's just a manipulative tactic.

Weakness and cowardice are nothing new, amongst certain ragweeds on DU or anywhere.

[ulysses]

10. heh.

Ok, oh brave one - to whom, specifically, are you referring as a "ragweed"? :D

[SemiCharmedQuark]

11. This is one of the only topics where linking to RW sites isn't shot down

immediately. Why is that?

[cynatnite]

12. My objection to them has never been based on their beliefs

It's based on the fact that these guys are untrained civilians and some carry guns. That sounds to much like a vigilante group and I think we need more than some guys taking matters into their own hands.

They can't tell who is and who isn't an illegal based on looks. There is too much of a 'shoot and ask questions later' mentality in this country and given the attitudes towards illegal immigration this strikes me as a bad combination.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

13. When this has been done in the past, blood has been spilled.

I see no reason to believe this time will be different. You don't need guns to call INS.

[Texasgal]

14. Great....

I won't believe it isn't racisim until they find some Bubba using his chewin' tabacco with a big ass rifle somewhere along the Canadian border.

[republicansareevil]

15. I'm not claiming the "Minutemen" aren't racists.

I believe they probably are, for the most part. I just think most DUers aren't racists, and I think the strong emotions brought out by this group have resulted in a clouding of discussion on DU. I think if we all stop assuming the worst about each other, we will see that most of us are probably more in agreement on this issue than we realize.

[Texasgal]

16. I can agree that most DU'ers are not racist.

One can only hope.

Here is my point, if there are people that are in agreement with the bubba's patrolling the Mexican border, we need to wonder why someone would think that's just fine and dandy when they are not up on the very large Canadian border.

They can CLAIM that they are not racist, but supporting a racist cause makes one wonder.

Trust me, if I was on DU, and saw just an outlandish amount of racism being espoused, I would leave.... quickly.

[jonnyblitz]

17. well, there seems to be a sizable number of DUers who

are willing to "overlook" the scary ideology of the minutemen because they feel illegal immigration is such a huge problem. These vigilante groups are just NOT the answer.

[Texasgal]

19. It's truly sad.

I am very sad to see racial views and support here on this board. I can agree with the fact that there are not just an overload of them, but there are some and their message should not be tolerated.

[Jesus Saves]

18. Great sig pic

truly great!