Confusion and questions about Bush entourage at Vatican.

[Jilly Beans]

I can understand the President of the US and his official delegation visiting the Vatican to pay their respects to the Pope as a head of state.

What I cannot understand is them kneeling before his body. None of them are Catholic. However, the kneeling and praying before the body demonstrates to me that the visit wasn't to show respects to a head of state, but to pray before a religious head.

Would any non-Catholic president in our history EVER have done this? What's even more perplexing to me is that Bill Clinton is a smart guy, and I can't for the life of me understand why he is mixing it with the Bushes.

Of all the photos of the Bush entourage kneeling before the Pope's body, the one that is most disgusting to me is the one that shows Condoleezza's attire. What's with the black veil? She looks more like she attending a mafia don's funeral than the Pope's wake?

I don't know. This whole thing is so confusing to me, but, most of all, the kneeling and praying before the Pope's body is most perplexing. Why did they do this? Does anyone else find it inappropriate? We all understand the significance of kneeling, don't we?

[Maple]

1. On another thread, I just posted

'What does it say to the world...

that 3 presidents of the 'most powerful nation on earth' are kneeling in front of a pope in Rome?

And the president's wife, and the secretary of state are veiled.

It's an enormous propaganda statement for the church's power.'

[Jilly Beans]

2. Thank you.

Yes, the message is undeniable. I wonder if Protestants in the US are going to have a coniption over this.

[Cooley Hurd]

3. OMG... just like the beginning of Godfather 3!

Michael bowing to the archbishop while getting a Catholic medal of smoe sort.:think:

[Jilly Beans]

4. Funny you should bring that up.

I just watched GF1 and GF3 this week.

And in GF3, we saw how his sucking up to the Vatican turned out, didn't we.

[KC21304]

8. It is tradition for the women to wear a veil or scarf

on their head while at St. Peter's and in the presence of the Pope.

[Maple]

9. A lot of things are tradition

Beating women has been a tradition too

So are 'honor killings'

Muslim women go veiled, and the Bush admin was 'freeing those women' remember?

[Jilly Beans]

15. Would Madeline Albright have worn a veil?

I can't imagine that the Clinton or Carter administration's delegation would have kneeled before the Pope, either.

They didn't attend as Catholic adherents; they attended as state delegates. Therefore, rules that traditionally apply to Catholic adherents in the presence of the Pope do not apply.

[lonestarnot]

5. Just like everything this phony does...Just a put on dog and pony show.

Whole cast of characters through the looking glass...

[moof]

6. "We all understand the significance of kneeling, don't we? " There is none

It's all made up by a bunch of weird greedy power hungry males.

[K-W]

12. Hardly

Kneeling is significant because it is an act of submission. It is intentionally diminishing yourself to show reverance to an authority or higher power.

It does to some extent have a root in violence, but dominance and submission are biologically not just about violence. Status plays a very important role in human social behabvior.

[Radio_Lady]

14. moof, your beach photo is beautiful -- but --

every time I see a beach, I think of those tsunamis. God, I wish those images would blur a bit.

[moof]

46. Thanks and while your appeal to the supernatural for a break from the

tsunami aftermath images is not likely to be granted, hopefully you will not have the images replaced by the devastation of a quake of the same magnitude along the west coast of California. It is unfortunate that just as the tsunami was something that enough was known about to have planned for and thus avoided much of the loss of life, it pales in comparison to what is in store soon for California, the planning for the disaster however is at the roughly same level.

[HairOnFire]

7. Veils

Hi. New to DU. Been Lurking for a while. As much as I'd hate to say anything remotely on their behalf, I'm pretty sure head coverings for women are common practice in Italian churches. Some I believe may be mandatory.

[Maple]

10. And yet the US opposes veils

on women. And this isn't even just a hat, but a veil.

[Jilly Beans]

11. They weren't attending church.

I can't believe that Madeline Albright would have worn a veil.

[Straight Shooter]

29. Welcome to DU

:hi:

When in Rome, do as the Romans do. No matter what church I ever attended, I followed their custom as a matter of respect. Not to do so invites attention and reprimand.

If bush and the entourage did not "do as the Romans do," it would be a serious error in the eyes of the world. Anyway, we all know that bush only goes through the motions no matter where he is or what he does. It's all meaningless to him.

[WillowTree]

13. It's called...

....showing respect for the beliefs and practices of others, especially when you're in "their house". The mantillas weren't mandatory, but many Catholic women, partiicularly in Latin countries, still wear them in church. It was a sign of respect.

And since when are Catholics the only people who hit their knees to pray now and again?

[Maple]

16. A veil

is a powerful symbol of subservience.

And standing would have been respectful.

Kneeling is something different.

[Jilly Beans]

18. Exactly.

Seriously, would Madeline Albright have worn the veil? I think not.

[WillowTree]

19. There's a difference...

....between a "veil" and a mantilla. Apparently it's lost on you.

[Jilly Beans]

21. Is the church's (antiquated) view of Rice's gender more important than...

her position as US Sec of State?

[Maple]

24. It's a head scarf...like a hijab

It isn't even just a hat.

The women...no matter their position or power...are veiled and kneeling.

[WillowTree]

32. LMAO!

I was raised Catholic, though I've been outside the lines for a very long time now. Your comment strikes me funny because back in the day, we thought it was great when it became fashionable in US churches to wear a mantilla or what was called a "chapel veil", which was mostly just a small circle of lace atop the head instead of a hat. Much cooler, from our perspective, than some dowdy old chapeau reminiscent of the Queen Mother, and much easier on the hairstyle, which was a major priority to me and my friends back then.

If it didn't bother them, why in the world would it bother you what someone decides to do? If you find the wearing of a mantilla in a Catholic church, which was worn to honor the Blessed Mother (who is revered, by the way, but not "worshiped" in the Church) rather than as some sort of subservience to men, then by all means, don't wear one. I just think it's awfully petty to criticize someone else, ANYone else, for quite literally following the old addage of "When in Rome..........". Big deal.

[Maple]

35. A chapel veil

is not a mantilla. Two quite different things.

But as long as you go along with subservience, you'll be treated that way

[WillowTree]

39. Well, if their choice...

....to be respectful of the traditions of others is threatening to you for some reason, then I guess that's just something you'll have to deal with. Couldn't possibly bother me less.

[Demit]

41. Really! I always thought mantillas were cool, too. More than chapel veils

In fact, I'm still slightly scandalized that women don't have to wear any head covering anymore, the rare times I'm in Church these last few years. And pants! LOL! Don't get me started!

[Maple]

47. Hug those chains ladies

People pretty much treat you the way you present yourself.

[Demit]

54. Well aren't you precious.

You're the one who's hung up on fashion. I'm quite secure in my feminist bona fides, thanks.

[Jilly Beans]

17. See. You're buying their scam.

You are setting this in the context of religion, when it should be perceived in the context of a state head paying respect to another state head.

[WillowTree]

23. I have a very close friend...

....who is Jewish. Last summer I attended her son's Bar Mitzvah and during the service and while I was in the synagogue, I behaved as they did and "followed the crowd" rather than making a spectacle of myself because I don't believe as they do. It wasn't a matter of me worshiping with them, it was about showing respect for them, and their beliefs and traditions.

[Maple]

27. And at what point

would you have said...no, I don't do that.

Women's 'politeness' will kill them yet.

[Scurrilous]

31. Yep...

Pandering? Or showing respect for religous tradition?

[Maple]

38. Is it a sign of subservience?

On the contrary, it's a sign of manhood in Judiasm.

[JVS]

42. It should be seen in the context of Photo Opportunities

[Dookus]

20. You'll find few people here

who are as outspoken as I am against the role of religion in our politics.

But I have no problem with this. It was a viewing. All viewings I've been to had a kneeling bench by the body. It's traditional, and I certainly think it's appropriate to have one in St. Peter's basilica where people are paying respects to a dead Pope.

The veils are also entirely traditional, and yes, Madeleine Albright would've worn one, too.

[Maple]

22. Not all churches kneel

and certainly not at funerals.

And as Churchill once said...screw tradition

As long as women go along with this kind of thing, it will continue to be dumped on them

[Dookus]

25. They're not in all churches

they're in a Catholic church.

Tourists can't get into St. Peter's if they're not dressed appropriately, either. Women must cover their arms, men can't wear shorts.

If they didn't want to follow the customs, they were free to not go to the funeral.

[Maple]

26. And they are protestants

Standing was perfectly acceptable.

And they wouldn't be turning Bush and his entourage away for not wearing veils.

[Dookus]

28. well

they were praying. I find it a silly pasttime, but that's how people pray in a Catholic church.

[Maple]

30. Or you can stand up

the pope did so, often.

[Dookus]

33. I simply don't find

kneeling to pray a sign of subservience to the Vatican.

There's plenty about this Pope that offended me, but I think people are really stretching to find something offensive in this.

They dressed appropriately and prayed in St. Peters basilica. I'm just not terribly surprised by it.

[Maple]

34. You're American

Would you bow.. or curtsy.. to the Queen of England?

She's the head of a church too ya know

[Dookus]

36. look

You can be as offended as you want, and it seems that what you DO want.

I find the idea that people kneel in a Catholic basilica unsurprising.

[Maple]

37. Dookus you argue with everyone

over everything.

Why are you so surprised that occasionally someone argues back?

I don't find anything that Bush does is surprising...that doesn't make it right.

[Dookus]

40. lol

I'm not surprised that you're arguing. Not at all. I just can't find something offensive in seeing people kneel to pray in a basilica.

There have been occasions I've been in churches since I became an atheist. I go along - if people are kneeling, I kneel. If they're standing, I stand. It's simply not the place or time to make my views known. If I was unwilling to do go along, I have the choice not to enter the church in the first place.

They weren't kneeling in subservience to the Pope. They were kneeling to pray.

[Maple]

43. But would you bow

to the Queen? I noticed you skipped over that part. :D

[Dookus]

45. oh sorry

I don't know. If I were President, no I would not. As an individual citizen, maybe. I don't know what the protocol is.

But I've bowed to Japanese business associates. I didn't find it an act of subservience.

[Maple]

48. They bow back

I can assure you the Queen does not.

[Dookus]

I'm sure she doesn't

but this really has nothing to do with the topic.

The American delegation did not kneel in subservience to the Pope. They kneeled to pray.

[tammywammy]

50. Dookus I'm with you on this one

I don't think that anyone was being subservient to anyone. I think they were respecting the cathedral and customs of the Romans and Catholics.

Also, I'm Methodist and we kneel when we pray after Communion. I don't think kneeling to pray is strictly a Catholic thing.

The Pope was a head of state, and I wholly think it's appropriate that Bush, etc went to his funeral.

When I attended a Hindu wedding reception, I participated as the others did. I didn't want to stand out, any more than I already did, by not participating.

I think if they didn't kneel or wear veils, as is a custom, people would be here screaming that Bush and Co were disrespecting the Romans and the Pope.

You have to pick your battles, and I think this is a non consensual thing.

[Demit]

44. You don't have to but you can (bow or curtsy to the Queen) as an American

It is your choice. Some Americans do, some don't.

[Maple]

49. Which is no answer

at all. :D

[Dookus]

52. Would you stand

for another country's national anthem?

[Demit]

53. I don't believe I would. Especially with my knees

But to fall back out of your good graces, I would wear a mantilla with no prob. Oh, and not wear a sleeveless dress, either. :)

[Maple]

51. Social customs in the US

appear to be as deeply embedded as they are in Japan.

Many of them haven't changed since 1776.

Interesting.