The environment, war, and personal responsibility

[imenja]

I'd like to open a discussion about ways in which each of us can behave in environmentally conscious ways in our daily lives. I've had some intense discussions with DU Hummer drivers, and as much as I despise the behemoths they drive, there are many ways in which we unnecessarily waste energy. Our personal actions have political consequences. American oil consumption is in part responsible for the War in Iraq and thus the thousands of human lives lost in that conflict. CAFE standards and other emissions regulations are important. But when faced with a Republican majority hostile to higher environmental standards, another type of political action becomes all the more important: our own choices as consumers. What are some of the ways that we can work to conserve energy and, as a result, human life?

[Tux]

1. Buy stuff

That is made from recycled material either 100% or even 50%. The more it's bought the more a company will know to continue using recycled material especially if the public lets them know that.

Find direct routes to places and avoid unneeded driving so your gas might be conserved. Buy hybrid for your next car.

Use a mulching lawn-mower. It makes free fertilizer for the grass. If you have leaves, either make mulch, burn it, or dispose of it in paper bags.

Recycle any material that can be recycled and ask your employer to do the same.

Send more email and less snail mail. Saves on paper and is a lot faster.

Buy fair trade items since they tend to be more environmental friendly than many corporations. Fair Exchange is a good coffee brand. I know UU churches have them so ask around for it.

[imenja]

2. great ideas! Thanks Tux

[amazona]

5. please don't burn leaves

The best thing you can do with leaves is to let them fall where they may. The waste of time, money, and fuel spent on having the perfect lawn is scary. Burning leaves is now illegal in many communities including my own because of what it does to air quality and the chances of starting a huge destructive fire. Destroying a home is not conserving of resources.

I report those who burn leaves in my community, not to be a big blue meanie but because the risk of fire with homes close together in a suburban environment is too dangerous for me to sit on my hands and make nice about.

If you must rake because of some busybody Home Owner's Association, mulch the leaves or give them to someone who can. Try freecycle to find people who would love to pick up your mulch, manure, etc.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[imenja]

8. I don't burn leaves but I have a question

I've always wondered about that. Leaves are natural, so why is burning them environmentally destructive? I understand the point about the risk of fire, but the air pollution component evades me. Perhaps you can explain it to me?

[skygazer]

11. For the same reason that burning wood pollutes

The chemical reaction caused by burning releases pollutants into the atmosphere.

[imenja]

13. which pollutants?

I'm not convinced, not by the wood analogy either. Now tires and things of that nature, obviously. And we think of people who use wood burning stoves as behaving in an environmentally conscious manner. Is that false?

Consider we a slow learner on this subject. My knowledge of science is poor.

[skygazer]

15. No, I don't consider you a slow learner

I consider you someone who likes to stir things up. If you're so curious about the subject, look it up rather than insinuate that I'm either full of shit or a liar. And yes, it is false to think of people who use wood burning stoves as environmentally conscious.

http://dhfs.wisconsin.gov/eh/HlthHaz/fs/WoodBrn.htm

<When wood, household garbage, plastic, or leaves are burned, they produce smoke and release toxic gases. The smoke contains vapors and solid compounds suspended in the air called particulate matter. The particulate matter and toxic gases released during burning can be very irritating to people’s health.>

<The toxic chemicals released during burning include nitrogen oxides, sulfur dioxide, volatile organic chemicals (VOCs), and polycyclic organic matter (POMs). Burning plastic and treated wood also releases heavy metals and toxic chemicals such as dioxin.>

That was tough - took me all of half a minute.

[imenja]

16. I insinuated no such thing and I find your response unfortunate

I could hardly insinuate something when I admit to knowing so little about it. I asked a question. There is no reason to assume every question is an insult or a bar fight.

The purpose of this thread is to inform people. If you find that burdensome, there is no requirement that you participate.

Thanks for your understanding.

[skygazer]

17. I've seen many of the threads you've started

Yes, I understand.

[imenja]

18. this was an attempt to create reasonable dialog on the subject

and you choose to use it to express your personal dislike of me. That really helps no one learn about environmental conservation.

[imenja]

19. by the way

If I should ever think you are lying, you won't need to look for cryptic insinuations. I'll tell you directly.

[H2O Man]

44. I think people have to be

reasonable. It might be a stretch to compare burning well-seasoned firewood with having a burn barrel full of plastic and other household trash. Burning wood does have environmental consequences: some are not good, as has been noted; others are actually good. People are going to have to heat their homes. Moving away from oil is a good idea. The firewood industry leads to people planting trees (though not in every case).

We're here on earth. Right now, we do not all have access to things that are perfectly safe for the environment. We can point fingers, or even fling insults, but that may not be the best avenue towards environmental progress.

[imenja]

56. could the difference between wood burning stoves and open fires be

the fact that chimneys have filters? In the winter, people like to build a fire in the fireplace. If you have the right kind of flew, it doesn't release a great deal of heat. I'd hate to think nights in front of the fire at my brother's house were some sort of environmental hazard.

I also spent every summer in the woods as a child. We'd hike, canoe, and built camp fires. It never occurred to us there was anything environmentally unsound about it, but of course one learned to be careful and fully extinguish a fire before leaving a campsite.

I expect there is a difference between what is acceptable camping and in the city, where the concentration of fires make in more of a problem in terms of particles released. And of course the threat of setting homes on fire is of great importance. I live in a town home, but when leaves collect in my garden area, I put them in bags and leave them to be collected by a particular unit of garbage collection dedicated to shrubbery. I'm not sure what they do with them after that.

[H2O Man]

59. I've never heard

of a filter on a chimney. That doesn't mean there aren't, of course. But I've had wood stoves and fireplaces that range from 200+ to recent age.

[imenja]

60. I guess I just assumed there was some sort of filter on them

I truly don't know. I'm just trying to figure out what makes burning wood so evil in comparison to burning fuel.

[RiDuvessa]

37. It's not only because of pollution.

Some communities also have burning laws because the smoke can touch off attacks in people who has sensitivities to smoke. Asthmatics, the elderly, people with allergies can all be negatively affected by burning leaves.

I can remember when I was little, burning the leaves at one house would smoke up the whole block. Now, I lived in a small town with lots of old trees, so there were tons of leaves in the fall, but I think the same would apply in some suburban neighborhoods.

[crispini]

12. While we're on the subject of the lawn,

your next mower should be a hand-push mower, if you don't have a ton of yard.

Gas powered mowers use gas, and contribute their exhaust to the environment. 30% of the air pollution in my area is due to gas mowers. Push mowers do just as good of a job and they're like $100.

[bloom]

14. If you do have a "ton of a yard" - considering planting it in wildflowers

you'll only need to mow it once a year. :)

And the butterflies and birds will love you for it. :D

[crispini]

3. Carpool

and/or bike to work.

[Abelman]

4. Watch less TV

and find other things to do with your time.

Basic stuff like turning the lights off if you don't really need them and turning off the water when you don't need it on.

[Selatius]

6. I live a very spartan lifestyle

Since I live on campus, I usually walk around, so gas prices are not an issue: I hardly drive, and I drive a camry. Trips to the local FoodMax to stock up on food usually are 10 to 15 bucks a week for me. Breads and grains are the staple of my diet (as well as ramen noodles). The rest is made up with vitamin suppliments. The only thing that hurts most is buying business suits for job interviews. They're expensive.

Thank God for pell grants and student loans. I wouldn't be here without the help. Unfortunately, I think they've slashed education spending, so I expect more loan money instead of grant money, which is unfortunate for us students. I'll have roughly the equivalent of a car note's worth of debt when I leave college. God help me stay afloat in my first couple years as I transition from college to life.

[imenja]

7. how do you get protein

I hope you balance your grains with beans, nuts, and other complementary amino acids. I wouldn't want to see you become ill.

[hfojvt]

30. Ramen noodles?

According to this package I have, a serving of Ramen noodles contains 32% of your Daily Value of Sodium and 18% of your DV of saturated fat. Also there are two servings per package so 1 package provides 64% DV of sodium and 36% DV of satuarated fat. I think that is seriously not good.

[Selatius]

63. I eat half servings as a result (you're talking about the bag, not cup?)

I break it into two and save the other half for later. The rest is breads, vegetables, etc.

[mtnsnake]

9. Become a hiker! Join a hiking group.

This is one of the best ways to not only help the environment, but to get in shape, and to conserve energy (hiking the mountains or woods instead of polluting & pillaging them by driving or snowmobiling through them).

Hiking is fun, healthy, & challenging, and you pretty much meet other like-minded people who care about the environment.

For example in NYS where I am, there's the ADK (Adirondack Mountain Club) which is a great organization and lobbies the state in environmental issues all the time. Anyone can join and there are local chapters all over the place.

[imenja]

10. do you pick up trash as you go along?

I've heard some groups do that. Is there a national association or did you find yours advertised locally?

[mtnsnake]

20. We rarely see it on the trails that I go on, mostly for a couple reasons

The trails we use are pretty much used only by other hikers and most hikers are conscientious people who'd never litter. Once in a while we'll come across a candy wrapper or something else, but when we do, we always pick it up and take it out with us. There are volunteer drives, though, that do go to places where trash needs to be picked up.

As far the association I belong to, it's pretty much just got chapters throughout NYS, although I'm sure there are hiking chapters in your area, too, if you seek them out. Here's the website for the ADK, followed by one showing its chapters:

http://www.adk.org/
http://www.adk.org/chapters/index.aspx

Other great ways to meet like-minded people in the outdoors are to get involved in canoeing or sea-kayaking.

[imenja]

23. I love canoing and sea kayaking

that's a great suggestion. Thanks!

[BamaGirl]

21. We've done a lot to our house for energy conservation

First we replaced all the carpet with tile or wood floors. We only have about 1 month of really cold weather, so from a cooling standpoint this makes good sense for us. The added benefit is far less asthma attacks and allergy problems.

Get a programmable thermostat. We have ours set for 68 for heat (it's hot here, I can't take cold lol!) and 81 for a/c. Most people in these parts would be freaking out about the 81 on the a/c. They need to learn to live with a little heat lol. People already have their a/cs on here. I won't turn mine on for at least another 2 months. I open my windows and turn on my fans instead. I remember being a kid and having no a/c. If you're young and healthy, you can live just fine in the South w/out a/c. ;)

Get a water heater timer. Hot water heater timers are a major energy hog. We set ours to be on 4 hours in the evening and 4 hours in the early morning.

Hang dry laundry and use compact florescent bulbs.

We don't have gas and our electric is a city utility. It's pretty cheap compared to what I see most people paying, but I still resent the hell out of this bill every month lol. My goal is to get it as low as possible. We used almost 200kwh less in 3-05 compared to 3-04 and the electric bill was the same! Rate increases suck lol! My next purchase is a solar attic fan. The rate goes up next month, so I have to decrease our useage more if possible. For those of us living on the edge of middle class, times are tough.

As far as gas goes, I drive my good mileage car as much as possible and do all my errands at one time. Once gas hit $1.80/gal I made serious changes in my driving habits. Didn't have any choice! $2.30/gal is killing us. I'm dreading $3/gal. It's not just the gas. It's the increase in everything else. I'm spending $150 more a month on food alone over two years ago, with no cost of living raise. I really can't afford the higher gas prices that are coming. It's very frustrating to see people in complete denial. But, imo, until a lot of people are personally feeling the pinch, no real change is going to take place.

[imenja]

24. question about florescent bulbs

by the way, great suggestions. I'm going to look into getting the times you refer to. A guy from the electric company told me about electronic thermostats, so you have reminded me that I need to install one.

As for the compact florescent bulbs, are you referring to drying clothes or light bulbs over all? Do you use florescent light throughout the house? And if so, do you not find the light bothersome? My light bulbs burn out very quickly in this house. I bought it about 18 months ago, and apparently one of the former owners fancied himself an amateur electrician. I'm concerned there are some problems in the wiring causing the bulbs to burn out so quickly. I need to have a professional electrician look at it, but of course everything is so expensive and I just had to replace my roof because of hurricane damage.

[BiggJawn]

25. I use the compact fluorescent "bulbs"

Have for the last 3 years. At present, there are exactly 3 incandescents in the whole apartment. One is the porch light, becuase C-F lights are slow starting in the cold.

As for the quality of light, I notice no diference, or at most, a lesss "reddish" light.

On the UP side, my electric bill went from around $35 to less than $25. A damn good choice, IMO.

As for YOUR problem....The only way that someone could have stunk up the job to make your lightbulbs burn out quickly is to have wired the place for 240 volts instead of 120. That's it, you get one or the other. Now, if your light bulbs aren't going off like the photoflash bulb in an old movie, and you're not burning up a TV set a day, I'd say that's probably not the trouble.

If you're buying those 4-for-89 cents lightbulbs, well, you get what you pay for....

[imenja]

27. I've actually been buying the Reveal light bulbs.

They supposedly give more light for less wattage, and the light is more diffuse, less harsh. They aren't cheap. But I have also bought regular light bulbs. Then there are the bulbs for the vanity, for which there is only one choice since they are oddly shaped. They
all seem to burn out more quickly than when I rented and bought the same bulbs. It doesn't seem normal to me.

[BiggJawn]

43. The power in your previous crib...

May have been LOW. They re-wired the feeder to my 'hood last fall. I'm showing 121 Volts right now (I'm a geek and keep tabs on stuff like that) When before the upgrade, I used to see 116 Volts.112 volts in the summer when the AC was on all over the 'hood...

I'm not sure those "Reveal" bulbs or other high-priced bulbs are all that long-lifed. I've tried them, and as far as incandescents go, the best bulbs I ever used were the 116W, 8,000-hour "traffic light" bulbs our tower company used to lamp the side markers with. They'd give me the pull-outs, and I'd still get a few years of use from them.
The compact fluorescents last years. I have replaced 3 in the 3 years+ I've been using them.

[chlamor]

26. Take fewer baths/showers

Buy nothing new except shoes and food
Don't use ANYTHING with industrial chemicals
Buy local food when in season
NEVER NEVER use a bag for anything EVER.
Eat root vegetables in the winter
Spend alot of time outside
Dawdle
Laugh in the face of empire
Scream at people who leave lights on
Compost
Only drink local ale/wine if none available brew your own
Sprout sprouts-superfood
Make your own yogurt-Easy
Wear wool
Knit
Never use a cell phone
Never use a cell phone
Never use....
Drink water
Eat only fresh food
Eat garlic and ginger
Have chickens-Eat them too
Only a dab of toothpaste
Drive slowly
Eat slowly
Use candles instead of lights-Softer and Enchanting

[H2O Man]

45. Good list

except the part on bathing.

[imenja]

55. have to agree with the bathing part

One can always wash with cold water through the garden hose while watering the plants. No need to forsake personal hygiene. That goes for brushing teeth as well. NOT a waste of energy.

[BamaGirl]

28. We have cf bulbs throughout the house

I buy the soft light ones, and they look like normal lights, not the funky florescents you remember from school lol.

Where are you with hurricane damage? We had some roof damage from Ivan that we thought had been repaired, but after the storms last night find we have leaking again. My husband just had shoulder surgery so he can't go up and look. My neighbor is going to have a look at it tomorrow, and we'll see from there. I'm really hoping there is no significant damage.

[imenja]

29. Hurricanes

I'm in the West Palm area. We got hit twice within three weeks. I had to replace the entire roof, and when they took the shingles off, the plywood was soaked with water damage. The insurance company--Liberty Mutual the spawn of Satan--has denied my claim, so I need to appeal through the state.

I'll look for those light bulbs. Do you find them in Home Depot-type stores? I suppose the supermarket doesn't carry them?

[hfojvt]

31. drying clothes means using a clothesline

instead of a dryer. I do not own a dryer.

Perhaps because of my wrinkled clothing, I am still single, so I came up with a different idea for my water heater. I turn it all the way down. When I want to take a shower (the only time I use hot water), I turn it up an hour before showering. Before I get into the shower, I turn it all the way down again. It just seemed silly the other way - first having a lukewarm shower and then hearing the water heater cranking up to heat up water which I will not need for another 48 hours or so.

[imenja]

32. my question was about bulbs

As limited as my mechanical abilities are, I do know how to dry clothes. I tend to hand them over doors rather than use a clothes line. Since the other poster had discussed drying clothes and florescent bulbs in the same sentence, I was a bit confused as to whether she used those bulbs throughout the house.


I'm going to follow the other poster's suggestion of getting a timer for the water heater. That accomplishes the important point
you raise about saving energy by not heating water all day long when one doesn't need that much. It also means the water can be hot first thing in the morning, which is handy.

[magellan]

33. Fluorescent bulbs and a cooling tip for hot climates

To mitigate the cost, gradually swap out all the bulbs in your house for fluorescent. We did this two years ago and we haven't had to change one yet. (Don't buy cheap ones, they're usually not worth the savings.) I even put one in our refrigerator when the old bulb blew. That one takes a few moments to come on because fluorescents don't like low temps, but it works!

You can get fluorescent bulbs now that put out natural light, not that horrible blue-white that makes everyone look like a vampire. You just need to check the Kelvin (color temperature). Lower numbers provide a warm light output similar to incandescent. The higher the Kelvin, the purer white the light, which can be real dreary in low wattage (60W or less) lighting levels. We use 3500 Kelvin or below, at 75W+.

Cooling tip: apply DIY window-tinting film to all your windows, particularly any south- and west-facing windows! We've been working on this since last summer as well, using Gila Heat Control - Platinum. It takes two people and can be a little time-consuming (and it's not exactly cheap), but between this and keeping curtains drawn during the day and using our ceiling fan, we've been able to cut our a/c usage A LOT.

Oh, and a p.s. about water heaters - insulate them. You can buy insulating blankets custom-sized to fit your heater, or DIY. Another energy-saver!

[imenja]

34. awesome info! Thanks!

[magellan]

36. You're welcome! And...

...you can buy all this stuff online to save gas. Just be prepared to google an evening away looking for the best price. I get a kick out of the learning experience...but then I also enjoy reading the dictionary. ;)

Edit: on second thought, you may not find the window-tinting online. We were forced to go to Home Depot for it; our Lowe's don't carry it.

[Jesus Saves]

22. Attention shoppers

buy with a conscience and save....

[REP]

35. Smaller Families

Limiting population size is a good first step. Smaller families use fewer resources.

[imenja]

38. the US and all of the West have negative population rates

All population increases are in the developing world.
Few American couples have more than two children, and a great many have none at all. The US population would be undergoing dramatic decline if not for immigration. Even with immigration, our population rate is .92%. (CIA World Fact Book)
If you look online for groups dedicated to population control, they promote restricting immigration.

[REP]

40. I Didn't Mention Immigration

In fact, I think it's the perfect solution to any 'decline' in birthrates.

While it is true that currently 41% of women aged 15-45 have no children, many in that group, especially the younger end of the spectrum, may decide to have children at some point. Even if 100% of that 41% decided to remain nulliparous, 41% is not really a "great many"!

[imenja]

41. Empirical evidence show you are mistaken

What people may hypothetically do really isn't the issue. Demographic trends show the population is declining. That is the reason behind projected social security shortfalls: fewer workers than retirees.

For some reason, some people have the idea that population explosion is a problem. Empirical evidence, however, demonstrates that argument is entirely unfounded. The population growth is ALL in the developing world, and they use a small percentage of the world's energy resources. There simply is no correlation between population growth and energy consumption.


I assembled this info for a response to a poster on another thread:

Our current population growth rate is .92%.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.ht...
That is an 8% decline from current levels. Even with immigration, our population is declining. We rank 158th in the world in birth rates: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/...
Our birth rate is 31% below that of the average global birth rate (14.14 vs. 20.30).

The UN Commission of Population and Development observes: "Because of its low and declining rate of population growth, the population of developed countries as a whole is expected to remain virtually unchanged between 2005 and 2050, at about 1.2 billion. In contrast, the population of the 50 least developed countries is projected to more than double, passing from 0.8 billion in 2005 to 1.7 billion in 2050. Growth in the rest of the developing world is also projected to be robust, though less rapid, with its population rising from 4.5 billion to 6.1 billion between 2005 and 2050."http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2005/pop918.doc.htm

So if you contention is a drastic reducing the population is the key to environmental conservation, you need to look to immigration policy, not birthrates. Also, I think you know very well that the US uses far more energy than our population share would suggest: we use 25.9% of the world's oil supply(http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/... )
while we make up only 4.6% of the world's population. The correlation you assume between population levels and energy use is simply not born out with empirical evidence. Your point about children as responsible for energy consumption in the United States is simply false.

[REP]

42. Go Off On Tangents Much?

Your argument is wrong. An American adult or child consumes more of everything than other humans. Fewer Americans = less consumption. Your attempt to twist into a 'children only consume' argument is a classic attempt at the strawman argument. The only one saying that is you.

The Baby Boom was an anomaly; the present US birthrate is not. The sky is not falling; in fact, it's a good start. Fertility in less developed parts of the world is beginning to decline as well (funny how that happens when they start educating the women).

Some people really really want to think that their children, their children's children, their children's children's children etc aren't going to use any resources, like water or food, but unfortunately, that's just not the case. Smaller families is a great trend; let's hope we're just seeing the beginning of it.

[imenja]

52. I see no logic to your argument

and my evidence is hardly a tangent. You ASSUME children by their very fact of birth waste energy, despite the fact empirical evidence shows shows there is NO correlation between population levels and consumption. An American child or adult quite obviously consumes MORE than any other person on the planet, but that has nothing to do with their numbers in the population. (Children clearly consume less than adults since they do not drive: automobiles take up much of our oil supply.)

Energy use in this country relates to overconsumption itself rather than population. If we lived in a country were Americans typically had large families, your argument might make some sense, but we don't. There are simply fewer children born than adults currently living in the population. Now, if you goal is to do away with the human species entirely, then your suggestion holds. If we are to follow this argument to it's extension, suicide, murder, and the death penalty would also be effective means of environmental conservation. If there were no human beings on the planet, we would use fewer resources. But the distribution of that population is in NO way related to energy consumption levels.

If you want to reduce an American population already in decline, you will need to join the nativist throngs who have taken that up as their cause. Telling people who are already abstaining from bearing children to stop doing so does not make a lot of sense.


One point with which I very much agree is that people who imagine children by their very nature constitute some sort of environmental problem should never have any. That, however, has to do with the well-being of those children rather than environmental consequences.

I myself have no children, and I never will. But I find your argument entirely offensive and ultimately quite sad.

[MadHound]

39. A few things to mention

Buy a wood stove with a catalytic converter on it. Puts out nearly twice the heat, with 90% less pollution going up the chimney.

If you can afford it and have the room for it, put up either a windmill(you can put a windmill up on a quarter acre), a couple of kw worth of solar panels, or both.

Insulate, Insulate, Insulate, both in cold climates and warm. In the winter it will keep the cold out, and in the summer it will keep the cool in.

As far as the leaf debate goes, either leave them where they fall(you can run over them with the lawnmower to help them break down quicker) or gather them up and compost them.

Buy a diesel vehicle and make your own biodiesel. If your land is big enough to warrant a riding mower of some type(like mine), buy a diesel one and run it on biodiesel.

That's all I can think of now, I might come up with more when the coffee kicks in.

[earth mom]

46. Can you do it yourself with solar panels or windmills?

I'm very interested in windmill power and the solar panels. Is there a cheap do it yourself method for solar panels or windmills or an inexpensive source? TIA!

BTW-Great thread and some great tips here! :)

[MadHound]

48. Unless you are skilled in both construction and electrical work

I wouldn't attempt to install either solar panels or a windmill yourself.

Before you install solar panels, have a qualified person check out your roof to see if it can support the panels, and to brace it if it can't.

The cost for both a windmill and panels are in the range of 10-20,000 dollars. While this is a big hit in the short run, in the long run(especially with peak oil looming) it will be a savings for you. Check your local and state regulations, you might be able to receive a grant or tax credit for these alternatives.

What I'm looking to do is to take out an equity loan or second mortage for my windmill and panels. This will spread the cost out over the next twenty years, so essentially what I'll be doing is substituting loan payments for electric payments, though depending on how much power I produce, I'll be getting checks back from the electric company, since they are legally bound to buy back power from customers who produce it. And as energy prices go up, I'll be saving money during that period of paying back the loan.

Solar panels have a lifespan of forty years, windmills even longer. Thus, after I've paid back the loan, everything is gravy. In addition, when you sell the house, the panels and windmill will add considerable value to your selling price. However before you throw up a windmill, have testing done to see if you get enough wind to make a windmill feasible. Otherwise you will have a large expensive white elephant on your land. Also, before you throw up a windmill, make sure you're not in the flight path of migratory birds. If you are, it doesn't mean that you can't have a windmill, but you might have to locate it a bit more strategically in order to spare the birds from being hit.

I would recommend that you install both systems, along with a battery bank. Thus, when you have a cloudy day, you can still get power through wind, and on still days you can power up through your panels. And then, when all else fails, you have the battery backup.

[earth mom]

49. Wow-thanks for all the great info!

My Dh is handy around the house, but it sounds like more than he will want to take on himself. I'm going to look into seeing if there are any grants available, if not, will look into the financing aspect since I really would like to do this. Thanks again!

[blindpig]

47. a point of contention

We should all do what we can to conserve resources and preserve the environment. We should not think that because we recycle some cans, drive a hybrid or drop a check in the mail for the Sierra Club that we have done what needs to be done. Those are good things on and of themselves but are also a palliative. Because only a minority will ever follow those practices and thus their overall effect will be negligible. The greedy scum leading us into doom will continue producing needless shit and people will buy. They don't spend billions on advertising for nothing.

Only by taking action at a higher level of society, the sphere of politics and policy, can really meaningful change be made. I believe the young Mr Kennedy has said the same. If all of the money given to all of the enviro orgs had gone into political action we might be getting somewhere. I suspect one of the reasons for this not being so is that much that needs to be done is a hard sell. Conservation. Restraint. Sacrifice. Not a sellers market for that stuff.

I fear that things will have to get worse, perhaps much worse, before a groundswell of popular clamor propels leaders to the forefront with such an agenda.

[imenja]

53. recycling is not nearly enough

and if you read through these posts, you'll see many are taking far more extensive steps to reduce energy consumption. I agree that pressuring for passing tougher environmental standards is important. But most energy consumption is in our hands as consumers. We are limited in our ability to force legislation through a Republican controlled congress. And even with the best legislation possible, the consumer still bears responsibility for his/her role in the energy economy. Many people feel entitled in claiming they can do anything--drive a Hummer, waste energy wantonly--as long as the law permits it. Of course the law permits them to waste in virtually unfettered ways. But as politically responsible liberals, we should not seek refuge behind the standards of the likes of Tom DeLay. We have a responsibility to do what we can in our daily lives.

[blindpig]

62. I don't believe that the market works as advertised

We responsible folks can do good, and it will be good, but it will not be enough. Every little bit helps, but the individual actions of enlightened consumers cannot counteract billions in advertising and the inert masses. We can all do our part and the world will still collapse around us. Unless change is forced upon the leadership class, by whatever means, we will have aught but a salve for our conscience.
All of the good ideas in this thread will prove a boon to those who use them in the dark days ahead but will not change the trajectory of things.

[imenja]

65. My point is that both are important

and I certainly agree that pressuring government to enact environmentally responsible legislation is very important. But that is only one part of the solution, not the sum of it.

[GoSolar]

50. Join Co-Op America

and shop from their "Green Pages" or go to them online here if you need to buy stuff: http://www.greenpages.org/ they have many beautiful, useful and innovative products!!!

invest in socially responsible ways

walk more, take mass transit if possible

eat responsibily

buy organic as much as possible. It really does make a difference.

read books about these topics

[imenja]

54. bookmarked. Thanks!

[H2O Man]

51. I like the ideas

about gardening, including flower gardens. Our culture is far too removed from natural world life.

Plant flowers & herbs that you will be able to use during the entire year. Make your own tea. Slow the pace of your life for at very least a couple of hours a day. You do not need to hurry and limit yourself to instant foods and drinks.

Individuals and families do better when they break bread at least once a day. Spend time teaching your children your grandmothers' favorite baking secrets.

Spend time sitting next to a creek during the spring. Go outside and listen to the peepers (they announced their opening season last night in upstate New York). Buy the book North American Indian Herbology.

The earth is alive. Get to know it on your turn here.

[Igel]

57. Minimize packaging of food, and reuse what you can.

I buy (sigh) spaghetti sauce in mason jars, and use them for canning and storing spices I buy in bulk. If it's realistically reusable, reuse it.

I buy large containers of stuff (if I know I'm going to use it), and prefer those in larger containers--less waste material per unit of what I actually want. If you can shop at a real health food store--one without 5 layers of packaging on your 8 ounces of buckwheat groats--do so. Buy bulk products. I like stores where you can take in your own containers for nut butters and honey.

If your neighborhood doesn't recycle, that doesn't mean you can't. Sort, collect, and recycle.

Combine trips, if you have a car. Forget to get apples? Do without them until the next trip by the store.

Buy locally, if possible; buy domestic, if local isn't available. Buy used (not food, of course).

My family's long collected kitchen scraps (of the non-meat variety) and used them in the garden. Once a roommate and I had a garden (he kept to his half, I kept to my half); he hated my burying "garbage" in the garden and collecting the grass clippings. The first year with the gumbo soil, we both did fairly lousy. By year 4 I was burying the kitchen in produce ... he was suggesting the next year we swap areas.

Don't air condition if open windows work, and use windows wisely--frequently opening fewer windows, if there's a breeze, is better than opening all of them. Set thermostat at 80 in the summer, 64 in the winter. Put up dark drapes in winter, light colored ones in summer. Don't fight the air conditioning with your kitchen use; winter's for baking and simmering things for hours, while summer is better for stir frying. Make largish batches and microwave leftovers, stove-top and oven cooking are inefficient. Keep the fridge and freezer full: when you open them, most of the cold air is replaced by warm air and that needs to be cooled. Use large empty containers, if necessary. Some of this is highly annoying until it becomes habit; some results in small savings of energy, but since it's little trouble, it's worth it.

Computers and other appliances have off switches for a reason. Use them. If a "ready" light stays on or the appliance is made for "quick start", get a power strip and turn the strip off.

[Zhade]

58. There are DUers who drive Hummers?

Man, I had no idea anyone on this site was THAT selfish!

[imenja]

61. Are there ever

and they take great offense when anyone suggests they should walk the talk when it comes to politics. Look in the meeting room, where my last thread got banished.

[Zerex71]

64. If you drive a Hummer, I have no sympathy for you.

Not when gas the gas costs alone eat into your paycheck, nor because of the inferiority complex that makes one buy a Hummer in the first place.

[imenja]

66. Front loading washers

They use less water and clean better. They are also easier on your clothes since there is no agitator. So if you're in the market for a new washing machine, I highly recommend the front loaders. I love mine.