I'm sorry but this spectacle of a dead old guy lying out in the sun

[karlrschneider]

is beyond bizarre, it's completely grotesque. Grr.

[tubbacheez]

1. Is there any SPF rating for embalming fluid? n/t

[deadparrot]

2. Have they embalmed him yet?

I heard he wasn't, because they wanted to see if his body would decompose.

[tubbacheez]

27. I don't know. But if there's power to be had in being preserved w/o any

known embalming, my cynical side thinks there would be several parties interested in hidden or stealth embalming techniques.

[deadparrot]

28. Wouldn't shock me.

The Vatican denied he had Parkinson's for years, apparently. The Vatican is full of politicians, and many will do what they have to do.

[ChickMagic]

165. I saw a program about "Incorruptibles"

on History, or Discovery, channel. Part of being able to be a saint is that your body is incorruptible - it doesn't decompose. There are several dried out saints throughout Europe in cathedrals - one of them is propped up in a chair. It's supposed to be an express lane to sainthood.

In every case, there was either a natural explanation for mummification, or there was out and out fraud. Some had been carefully embalmed.

The Vatican is saying that the Pope has not been embalmed. They are trying to show that he is an incorruptible, and it's fraud.

[tubbacheez]

166. Don't be surprised if the Vatican has an R&D project to create the

illusion of incorruptibility.


Suppose they had stealth technologies for embalming, dessicating, or irradiating a corpse?

Anyone with a good enough magic trick could provide the media with miracles on demand.

[madeline_con]

129. WHAAA?

He'd be getting funky by now. Are they waiting for a miracle?

[karlrschneider]

3. who knows? I heard one report he wasn't embalmed at all...

but I couldn't believe it...there be maggots after a day or two...
:eyes:

[Kerrytravelers]

4. Why is it bizarre?

There are millions of people who are Catholic, and to them the Pope is an impoortant person. For them to want to see him isn't unusual.

[Padraig18]

108. Why is it bizarre?

Every culture since the dawn of time has had rituals attached to death, and we are no different.

[madeline_con]

131. but dragging him around for a WEEK??

That's bizarre. Do they refrigerate him for the 2 hours the basilica's closed?

[Padraig18]

156. A week is not long.

Cardinals from all over the face of the globe want to (and should be able to) attend; while travel may be fast these days, it is not instantaneous, and still takes time. Even if I handed you a ticket to Australia right now, and you instantly boarded the plane, it would still take you about 1 1/2 days to reach your destination. Furthermore, John Paul II was the spiritual leader of 1.1 billion worldwide, and he can't just be thrown into a hastily-dug hole and buried like the family dog.

:eyes:

[ohioliberal]

5. With no disrespect

I wouldn't wait in line for 24 hours to see any dead body. My dad past away two weeks ago and I couldn't look at him for 2 seconds. These people are insane, TOTALLY!!!

[Joe the Revelator]

12. Thats you.....

When my grandfather died I got a lot of comfort over being able to spend some time with the body before they closed the casket. Does that make me TOTALLY~!!!1!11#@ insane?

[Piperay]

16. Same here

our family has always had open caskets and visitation where the immediate family stays and greets people who come to pay their respects. I find it very comforting and it helped when my mother died and so many people came by to give support and share memories.

[phylny]

41. I'm sorry to hear of your loss n/t.

[madeline_con]

133. When my Dad died...

I think I freaked out one of his students by telling him how they'd messed up his mouth and it didn't look like him...

The guy left in a hurry.

[beam me up scottie]

147. I bet you're fun at parties!

Welcome to du, ghoulish as it is.
:evilgrin:

[candy]

6. A ritual--remember the crowds that went to see JFK?

[Disturbed]

7. Viewing bodies seems to be popular.

Why is it that the Bush Junta has tried to hide caskets coming from their dirty wars?

[CarefullyLiberal]

63. Totally off topic, but...

Disturbed,

That is a fascinating picture of Adolf Hitler coming out of a church. Where did you find it? What church is it?

I'd love to know what he was doing in there. Maybe some sort of public relations thing? Fascinating.

Very interesting.

Peace,

Fergus

[Dulcinea]

8. Why is he not in a casket?

That's gross!

It seems very disrespectful just to have him lying on a table like a deli tray!

[Kerrytravelers]

42. It's Catholic tradition.

I was too young to remember the last time a Pope dies, but others who remember told me this is how the last Pope was presented to the people.

[Inland]

9. Different strokes for different folks. nt

[Randi_Listener]

10. Then why the fuck are you sorry?

[karlrschneider]

24. I'm sorry he has to be subjected to this idiotic indignity.

'kay?

[Patiod]

11. I'm guessing none of you were raised Catholic?

This is pretty normal for those of us who were.

My mom's father was laid out for a few days on the kitchen table -- I can't remember going to a closed-casket funeral.

A young Jewish guy I worked with a few years ago asked me what a "viewing" was. Needless to say he was horrified. That was my first clue that not everyone finds this practice perfectly normal...

[newsjunkie]

14. I think the whole thing is bazarre

..seems the whole world is worrying about and concentrating on DEATH more than LIFE and I think its nuts. I am not a bit afraid to die and dont waste a second worrying about that. None of us knows, so lets just let it be a big surprise what happens. I figure if we were supposed to know, we would know by now.
I do worry about Republicans fucking up whats left of my LIFE though. :(

[Coastie for Truth]

17. Jews and Muslims bury their departed - unembalmed - w/in one day

There is no viewing.

(One of my Iranian Shia friends couldn't believe how "Muslim" we are - unembalmed burial within one day, and no pork, and no Trinity - and Persia's King Ahasuherus had a Jewish concubine/mistress/wife (whatever?))

[Princess Turandot]

152. On the other hand, the girls are not invited..

at least at traditional Islamic funerals. I still recall the Queen of Jordan watching her husband's burial from a building in the distance & from behind a latticework.

[Coastie for Truth]

170. Since I was never at a Muslim funeral - I can't respond

But since my grand parents and my father were buried in Jewish funerals - women are present.

[Piperay]

13. Actually he is not out in the sun

he's lying inside.

[Bunny]

15. Well, he's actually inside the basilica.

He's not out in the sun. Aside from that, it is a little strange - lying on the table, not even in a casket, much less a closed casket. It is undignified.

[QC]

18. Not everybody's as squeamish about death as white middle-class Murkins.

[Dookus]

19. If he was in a casket

nobody would be able to see that he's wearing the Ruby slippers.

[Kingshakabobo]

20. I hope the little block of wood doesn't come loose.

WTF is that? It looks like something I built in my wood-shop.

[Dookus]

21. That staff he's holding

is an emergency brake.

[karlrschneider]

23. ROTFLMAO....."emergency brake"

BWAHAHAHA

[greatauntoftriplets]

29. Emergency brake....

:rofl:

I was raised Catholic (am now recovering) and think the custom of looking at dead bodies is barbaric.

Give me an Irish wake where I am nowhere to see seen and everybody gets shit-faced, please.

[lonestarnot]

43. laddie, Irish are famous for lay'n 'em out in the front room! n/t

[greatauntoftriplets]

44. Not in my family.....

We always desert the funeral home and head to the nearest bar.

[lonestarnot]

45. Well now days I suppose, hehehe Only time we get together is for funerals

and weddings...and everybody gett'n to old for weddings...so don't need a funeral for a beer!

[greatauntoftriplets]

54. At my father's funeral nearly 13 years ago....

We had cold beer in the private room where the family goes to eat and relax. Somebody brought in burgers from the local pub and cold beer. We'd go back and forth...eating and slugging beer. It helped.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

59. Sounds like my family, except we go out to eat

which is kind of weird, having just viewed a dead body...

[greatauntoftriplets]

64. We went to a restaurant after the funeral.

One that served adult beverages, of course.

:)

On edit: My father would have heartily approved. A couple weeks after my father's funeral, my brother-in-law (sister's husband) visited the grave with a jar of gin martinis, which he tossed onto the site. My father also was buried with a Winston cigarette in his suit pocket. (It was okay, he died of kidney failure...)

[lonestarnot]

101. Dead body is nutt'n ...we alllll gona be one LOL

[Radio_Lady]

105. For drinks and dessert, appropriately!

[jonnyblitz]

30. LOL.

:P

[Kingshakabobo]

31. LOL

:rofl:

[thinkingwoman]

73. there's no place like home

there's no place like home...

[Radio_Lady]

103. But he's obviously not going home to Kansas, Toto! n/t

[Stephanie]

22. I agree - it's barbaric

too too weird

[karlrschneider]

25. All religious trappings are barbaric......and weird.

:eyes:

[WillowTree]

50. How very tolerant of you.

[LizW]

26. All our cultural death rituals are bizarre

if you stop to think about it.

Around here we drain the blood out of the dead person and fill them up with chemicals that keep them from starting the decomposition process too soon. Then we dress the dead up in their very best, do their hair and make-up and everyone they knew in life comes by and stares at them. Then we close the box (which usually costs about as much as the deceased's first automobile) take it to an elaborate garden for the dead and lower it into the ground.

It's all weird, but it's what we do.

[Mrs. Overall]

32. I find your post and those who agree with you

rather intolerant and offensive.

It sounds as though you (and several other people on this thread) have limited exposure to other cultures. Alarm bells always sound when I hear people look at another country/culture and use words like "bizarre" and "different"....it's what most of my Republican relatives say when confronted with something not usually practiced in this country.

You ought to look up some Native American death rituals. Here in the Pacific Northwest some tribes put their dead in a canoe and hoist them up into the trees for the animals and birds to eat.

Some Hindus burn their dead publically and then break open the skull with a blunt instrument to release the spirit of the deceased.

Death rituals are important for a healthy society as is the acknowledgement of death. We live in a youth oriented society where death is avoided at all costs--"culture of life" etc...

What is unhealthy is the media focus on this event, not the event itself.

[QC]

34. Excellent post! n/t

[femme.democratique]

35. Good reply. I understand people being somewhat shocked...

...because we do live in such a protected society where things are sanitized, and I too feel somewhat strange about dead bodies but I think there is a reason for it. People want to see him and will be devastated if they don't.

[karlrschneider]

38. I have spent a significant proportion of my 63 years in other countries

and am probably more aware of "other cultures" than you might suppose. That doesn't mean I can't find them to be goofy...as I find most of the tenets of the very culture in which I was raised. I would have found the same level of grotesqueness if the dead person in question were any of those you mentioned (oddly enough, none of which involves putting the dearly departed on public display for a week.)

Actually, I have no qualms about the practice of leaving the dead as food for other animals to eat. As Mr. Eastwood said, "vultures have to eat too."

I just think a public spectacle displaying a dead guy who will soon be interred beneath some marble slab is anathema to a true honoring of whatever good he may have done. Your mileage obviously varies. I wouldn't want it done to me.

[Mrs. Overall]

40. I appreciate your response/clarification--

but I still think the "spectacle" is created by the media. People viewing a body is fairly mainstream (the length of time shouldn't matter, unless it begins to decompose, then there are other issues...)but I think calling this "bizarre" and "grotesque" and "barbaric" is a bit extreme.

European Catholics are comfortable with their pagan roots. Show the body, chop it up for relics and send it here and there...it doesn't bother me a damn bit.

[Inland]

48. And yet, there are a number of posts that can't get enough

Including close ups, comments about whether the makeup is lasting, discussing all sorts of evidence of decomposition.

Apparently it isn't just people from other cultures that enjoy the spectacle more than you do. But that's the funny thing about spectacle. If nobody shows up, there isn't one. A good attendance is a definitional requirement.

[Kerrytravelers]

46. I'm Catholic. We have viewings all the time.

So so our family members in the south who are Baptist. Viewing reaches across many religions, customs, faithers and regions.

I have always been comfortable with it. Being able to touch my grandmother one last time was something I'll never forget.

I'm not barbaric nor bizarre. I may take comfort in something that others may not, but each person handles death in their own way. There isn't a right or wrong in such personal emotions.

[Hardrada]

55. Yours is a good reply. It is SUUM CUIQUE in fact.

Each to his own. Whatever helps you in your grief. Whatever can help since there are some griefs that are very very difficult to come back from.

[cidliz2004]

82. I don't like the media whoredom on most events, but if they are going to

overdo it, I could see them overdoing it with the Pope more than I can about anybody else. Reagan's week long coverage was too much. As was the Schaivo thing. Michael Jackson, Peterson case....

The Pope is a world religious leader who has been in the public eye for over 25+ years. He was dearly loved and the millions of people flocking to this should illustrate WHY this is being covered.

We really live in a small world when people don't want to be bothered a week or so out of their lives to witness this.

I was raised Catholic, but I don't follow the church's teachings, I don't believe in them. I did see the Pope a few years ago and even though I am not a practicing Catholic, I felt an exhilaration when I was in the church in the Vatican at a Mass the Pope was at. To see all of the people from all around the world come to pay homage to this man. To see people dress in their native (costumes?) and sing together to the Pope or say prayers to him was really awe inspiring.

There is something to be said for spirituality and a spiritual presence. I felt it. People consider the Pope the one human being one earth closest to God. Whether it be true or not, people all around the world believe this and feel this. I feel that the Pope did have a sincere relationship with God. I don't know for sure, but I felt that he did.

I know that there are many other religions and atheists, but have patience the most loved figure in the Catholic Christian world is being laid to rest. People are grieving - let them grieve.

They cannot go to Rome, so have some tolerance and allow them their time and grief. What do you think would be on T.V. anyway right now? Garbage for the most part.

[theboss]

86. Well said

I can't imagine judging someone's grieving process. If the Pope coverage bothers you, watch Comedy Central, rent a movie, read a book, clean your bath tub, go for a hike. It's not THAT hard to avoid.

[Terran]

89. Well said

While I personally find the viewing of the deceased's body kind of strange (I mean, they're not in there anymore), I wouldn't ever criticize someone's religious rituals. Things like evolve for a reason, I believe.

There's one fairly gruesome one you forgot to mention--the ancient Tibetan custom of dismembering the dead body and leaving the pieces for the vultures to eat. To them, that's the sanctified way to go. Tolerating such things with civility is the mark of a progressive, IMO.

[madeline_con]

135. I agree on the media saturation

EVERY news show has to be about the pope. Please, didn't anything else happen in the world??

Oh, I forgot. They did cover M.J.s trial!!! :puke:

[scarletwoman]

33. Even the Neanderthals had rituals for the dead.

Gravesites have been excavated revealing evidence of wildflowers having been placed with the body which had been anointed with red ochre.

Ritualizing death is as ancient as hominid sentience. A truly tolerant and enlightened person would not be so crass as to criticize and belittle the cherished traditions of others. How a particular group of people choose to honor their departed ought to be respected, regardless of your own personal opinions.

Your post is not only disrespectful but dishonest as well. The body of Karol Wojtyla is NOT "out in the sun", but INSIDE the Basilica of St. Peter -- as ANYONE following the news would know. If you want to make a valid point, you ought to at least utilize the empirical facts.

sw

[karlrschneider]

39. The few pictures I've seen APPEARED to be an outside venue.

I haven't paid a lot of attention to the whole circus. I find funerals in general (and this one in particular) to be totally unnecessary and bizarre rituals that obviously do nothing for the newly departed. It is impossible to 'immortalize' a person or any other formerly living organism since the universe cannot be eternal. So a legacy can't extend beyond that point.

[scarletwoman]

47. Speaking as someone who has lost THREE husbands,

(Two died of sudden heart attacks and one from cancer -- I'm an old woman who has loved much) I have to wonder if you yourself have ever dealt with the death of someone you cherished.

Of COURSE, funerals aren't for the "newly departed"! I would think that any idiot could figure that out. They're for the people who are still alive, who loved the departed.

Life is terminal, ALL of us will die. And all of us will (hopefully, unless we're total assholes) will leave behind people who will mourn our absence in their lives.

Funerals are for those who must make the transition from having a loved one present in their lives to having that loved one gone for good. It's not an easy place to be. Grief is probably the most difficult of all emotions to process.

There is a wisdom the collective consciousness of humanity -- wisdom which encompasses and accounts for the pain and difficulty of processing grievous loss. Thus, within this body of wisdom there have arisen the various coping mechanisms for accomodating the loss of our loved ones.

What you call "bizarre rituals" are actually profoundly human means of making peace with our mortality. There is honor and courage in the act of facing death head on -- which is precisely what confronting the empty physical shell of a departed loved one is all about.

sw

[Kerrytravelers]

58. Thank you for the well written post.

I have lost many members of our family. In high school, we had 8 students die over the 4 years. Death has been a major factor in my life time and again. I attended the funerals, sang at many of them, and always cherished the last time I was able to see the body before it was buried.

Thank you for your wonderful post. It was greatly appreciated- probably by more of us than you'll ever know.

[scarletwoman]

68. Thank you. It really means alot that someone understands.

I lost my last husband almost 5 years ago. I was at work, he was out deer hunting with a friend. I got home to find his friend running out into the driveway telling me to get into his car so he could he could drive me to the emergency room. I live in rural area, the hospital was over 50 miles away.

My beloved had been dead on arrival -- a massive heart attack in the woods, another hunter found him collapsed under the trees and called an ambulance. My husband's friend had separated from him a short time before, and didn't know anything had happened until he heard sirens driving up the old logging road. He had run toward the scene wondering what was going on only to see Mike being loaded on a gurney into the ambulance. He didn't know my phone number at work -- it was only my 3rd day at a new job -- so he just waited for me to get home.

At the hospital they let me into a private room with Mike's body. I cannot imagine how I would have coped without having had that private time to touch him and kiss him and weep over him. Intellectually I knew, of course, that *he* was no longer there. But I really needed that time with his lifeless body to *get* that he was gone from my life.

Death is not just a transition for the one who dies. Those left behind must go through a profound transition themselves. Whatever it takes to make it through this transition ought to be respected, and unconditional compassion given to those who are doing whatever they can to deal with it.

sw

[Kerrytravelers]

72. How sad. Thank you for sharing.

I was so close to my grandmother. She had a heart attack (not her first) and we were told, this is it. I flew out to be with her. For seven days, I stayed right by her side, along with my mother and her older brother. Other family members came and went, but no one stayed the way we did.

She would come in and out of clarity. Her only living sister, who had ALheizmer's, came to see her. For one brief moment, they were both sharing a moment of clarity and had one last time together.

I also had that moment with her. She was clear and able to talk. She knew she was dying and made me promise to let her go with dignity.

That is what we did. My mother and I held one had, my uncle the other as she passed. I was the last person she looked at as her last breath slipped away.

The family had a hour or so with her in the hospital. I cherish those last moments. We were able to spend time with her at the viewing. I got to touch her one last time. I was even one of her pallbearers. All these are memories I'm so glad I have.

I, too, know that *she* wasn't there, but I still felt close to her for one last time.

It has been hard to read posts that call me barbaric or bizarre. I am none of those things, just a girl who loved her grandmother.

[scarletwoman]

78. Thank you for sharing also.

:hug:

Forgive me, I'm out of words...

sw

[Kerrytravelers]

79. A hug to you, too...

friend :hug:

[madeline_con]

136. A legacy can...

just not the guy.

[DemonFighterLives]

36. I think they did some modified embalming, but who knows

When my mom died in December, my sister was hoping that we would do some natural thing like she has heard of. No embalming, family hosts the dead person at the home and builds a pine box. Some of the ideas seem cool, but where were we supposed to keep mom and who was going to haul her to the mourning site? We weren't equipped, so we let the funeral director do it all. I was surprised that the embalming seemed to turn her to stone. I don't know what was used, but it must have had cement in it.

[malaise]

37. Yes but it is

great diversion.

[Skittles]

49. it is disgusting

beyond belief

[buddysmellgood]

57. Hey, let's go see the pyramids!

[tinonedown]

51. Freedom of religion

If you brag it, practice it. Know it is hard to do sometimes, but please don't show yourself. Not here.

[scarletwoman]

56. Thank you. You've gotten to the heart of matter -- Freedom of Religion.

Those who are passing judgement on the rituals surrounding the death of the Roman Catholic Pope, who are you to judge? Are YOUR offended oh-so-delicate sensibilities of greater worth than the sensibilities of those for whom this is an important and honorable ritual?

How are you any different from the right wing who loves to mock and belittle all the principles that liberals hold dear?

Who is being harmed by the death ritual surrounding the passing of John-PaulII? How does it infringe upon your freedom?

Are you hell-bent on proving yourselves to be the snotty elitists that our enemies deem us to be?

sw

[DearAbby]

65. This is history, a tradition. I find it fascinating.

I will also find the upcoming conclave and vote for a new Pope just as fascinating. It demands my respect because it is seeped in centuries of tradition.

[Kerrytravelers]

69. Thank you.

One need not be Catholic, Christian or religious in the slightest to understand or be open to the Catholic traditions. I am not Muslim, yet have taken it upon myself to learn what I can, especially about their pilgrimage to Mecca. There is so much we can learn from one another if we ask questions and seek the knowledge, realizing that it may be so opposite of anything we've ever done or felt comfortable doing before. We need not participate to hae a slight working knowledge of how others live and perceive the world.

God, I'm such a liberal. (This is still a liberal discussion board, right?)

[eek MD]

161. Just because something is steeped in tradition, it doesn't demand respect.

slavery was also a tradition. (I'm not making an attempt to compare the two, just making a statement about traditions)

I respect the fact that they have a right to their tradition. It doesn't mean that all traditions demand respect.

Also, i don't think that me believing that the tradition is bizarre is showing any disrespect. It's my opinion based on not having a religion and having no belief in any afterlife.

[eek MD]

157. There's a difference between being offended and finding something bizarre.

You seem to be a bit intolerant of others opinions. :)

I respect the fact that this is a ritual. I'm not offended by it. I don't think it's "infringing on our freedom". I don't feel "harmed" by it.

Yet i still think it's bizarre as i think the same of all "rituals" involving death, and i don't feel a bit of shame for having my opinion. If you want to stand in line for an entire day to see a corpse go right ahead. I personally think that spending a day in line thinking about a dead person would hardly be a way to "calm your grief" though. Just my opinion.

Or maybe i'm just a "snotty elitist" (Funny, i've heard the same term coming from conservative radio commentary)

[madeline_con]

138. Speaking of freedom...

what happened to the separation of church and state?

A lot of heads of state die all over the world, and we lower our flags to half mast for a Polish guy in Italy??? It's not right.

[liberalpress]

163. ..a Polish Guy it Italy..

...who was also a Head of State. The Vatican is an independent city/state

[eek MD]

158. Has anyone been advocating that you not practice your religion?

I haven't seen it. Some of us just think your religious beliefs are a bit strange. :)

[ultraist]

52. It used to be Catholic tradition to kiss the dead body

For some, seeing the body dead, helps with closure and the grief process.

This public situation with the pope is not really about that. It's about reaffirming the church's power and holding the pope up to the "his holiness" title.

[Kerrytravelers]

62. For some, seeing the body dead, helps with closure and the grief process.

In the Catholic chruch, the Pope is considered the Father, and in matters of faith, infalliable. People hold a great amount of respect for him, even when they disagree with him on many issues.

Unfortunately, with the media turning this into the Pope-a-thon, the respect is lost. And, instead of explaining the rituals and traditions of the Catholic faith so everyone knows what is going on, they have talking heads speculating on the next Pope, on the Pope and Bush, etc.

The RC church is doing what it always does, as per tradition and culture, but the media is going, as they usually do, stupid and they are doing a terrible job explaining what is going on.

[dddem]

53. Although it's not something we like to think about, or discuss,

The viewing (we call it a "wake")is probably one of those things that families have to go through in order for process to begin. I know when my father died (suddenly), I kind of felt that we needed the whole dog & pony show to let things sink in. But what I find truly bizzare, and kind of sick, are the people with their flippin' cameras and camcorders. WTF is that about? I don't like my picture taken now, no way in hell it's gonna happen when I'm dead (oh, but doesn't she look great!) AAARRGGGHHH - what are we becoming?

[scarletwoman]

60. How hard is it to "get" that people are trying to capture for themselves

an historic moment?

For Goddess' sake! Let people do what they feel is right for them! If they wish to digitally preserve a once-in-a-lifetime event, why criticize them for it?

This thread is driving me to despair. If the left is so shallow and crass as to be unable to respect and appreciate that this is a singularily meaningful event to millions of people then we totally deserve to be to shunted aside and mocked as irrelevant.

Geeeeeze....

sw

[Kerrytravelers]

61. While I've never taken the picture of a dead person,

a cousin took a picture of my grandmother. I've had friends from Europe who have sshown me the death pictures. It's just something that they do, I suppose. Not my thing, but we all grieve differently.

[Disturbed]

66. Wierd rituals?

Symbolicaly drinking the blood and the body of Jesus seems wierd to me.

[Kerrytravelers]

67. I must be on the wrong site.

I thought liberals, progressives and those on the left were respectful of others beliefs, religions, and values. I don't recall ever calling someone else's religious practices weird.

But hey, that's just me.

[scarletwoman]

71. "...respectful of others beliefs, religions, and values."

Yeah, one would *hope* this would so of so-called "liberals".

Unfortunately, there's as much of a superiority complex on the left as there is on the right.

sw

[dddem]

74. Please understand,

I mean no disrespect. I've never heard of photographs of the dead. To my knowledge (I'm Catholic), this particular ritual isn't part of a traditional catholic funeral rite. I find it kind of repulsive, frankly. As for me, I want my life to be remembered, not my death. My comments was an observation more about the "rubbernecking" type of macabre curiosity we have with the famous than with any type of religious ritual or traditional grieving process. But, each to his own, I guess.
Peace.

[WillowTree]

76. True. Not part of any *Catholic* rite.

But in many places outside the US, it's commonplace regardless of religion. I personally wouldn't want to take post-mortem pictures, but why should anyone care if someone else does if it's meaningful to them?

[scarletwoman]

80. Up through the 19th century it was a common Western practice to make

"death masks" -- said mask being made by molding clay over the face of the corpse. Macabre? Certainly many might find it so. But obviously for those who made a practice of this, it was a valid part of their grieving process.

The point is, who are we to judge what is "bizarre" or "macabre"? I find it utterly unseemly to mock or deride ANYONE'S personal choice of how they encounter the fact of human mortality.

sw

[madeline_con]

141. My mother in law

took pics of her mom, and one day my 9 year old brought one home to put on his mirror. I don't care for them, but he wanted the pic, so...

[jmcon007]

70. The Pope's getting a little ripe, isn't he?

I think the evidence is that the ghoul line seems to be moving a little faster and the hanky to the eyes have dropped down to cover the nose.

[DeposeTheBoyKing]

75. I read they "prepared him for burial," but didn't embalm

I'd like to know what "prepared him for burial" means outside of the context of dressing him in the vestments.

The hardest things I've ever had to do in my life were walk in and see my parents dead in their caskets for the first time. I wasn't with either of them when they died, something I regret very much. It was very odd to see their stretched, waxy features. What was much more natural was being with my sister's body in the hospital a couple of hours after she died; the hospital waited for us to get there before removing her body from the room. It was actually very peaceful and comforting to sit with her in that way. I wish I'd had the chance to do that with my parents instead of just seeing them all rigged out for public display.

[Kerrytravelers]

77. Just as many of us lurk on the freeper site, they come here, too.

DO not be surprised if this thread is linked with remarkes about how intolerant we are and how anti-religious the left is. We've given them plently of ammunition.

It's not about converting to Christianity, buying into Christianity or throwing Christianity in anyone's face. It's about understanding that we all have opinions on religion, and while debating the articles of religion and the validity of certain religious beliefs are open to all, it seems rather closed-minded to be ridiculing other's beliefs. THat is what makes the left far superior to those on the right, bth morally and intellectually. We can debate without insulting. We can discuss while being respectful. We can disagree without degrading.

[beam me up scottie]

97. If you're worried about freepers

paying attention to this thread, why did you post? It just keeps kicking it over and over and over again.

[Kerrytravelers]

100. I'm not "worried."

It doens't matter where it is, kicked or not, if they want to read it, they will search thread titles and read through them, no matter the location.

I posted because I had something I wanted to add to the discussion. I would never say "don't post," but I think it's valid to wonder why we aren't more careful to practice the tolerance we preach, especially with this religious war going on in this country. We can hate the Christian Coalition for all they stand for, in regard to pushing their religion on our way of life, for making this country bow down to all their religious intolerance, and for politicing religion and having a president who forces his religion in our faces all day long, every day. But, we should never hate the Christian Coalition because they are Christians. We shouldn't ridicule other's traditions and rituals and deem them "weird" or "barbaric." THat's isn't being free to express ourselves, that's belittling others and we, being liberals, progressives and on the left are above that, morally and intellectually.

Now, to furhter clarify, certainly do not think I am perfect. I have said things that have been criticized for being unfair or biased. I re-examined what I said, the tone and verbage and often apologized and/or changed my tone upon learning how I sounded. No one expects an apology here, but perhaps a rethinking of how we perceive something can always be helpful. :)

[beam me up scottie]

109. Thanks for answering my question.

You are right about freepers seeing what they want to see.
The point I tried to make in my post below is that the op probably finds bizarre humor in this custom. I do, and in my family we joke about EVERYTHING, and I do mean everything. It may seem tasteless to some but that's how we express ourselves. We find humor in what other people do, we even find humor in what we do.
Humor isn't necessarily disrespectful.
You are welcome to post that you find it intolerant but not everyone sees it that way. This is a public spectacle that has been going on for days, people are going to make fun.
Nobody is pointing to pictures of private funerals and laughing.
This is no different than the ts debacle. Have you seen the political cartoons this week? It's not just us, people all over the world are finding humor in this.
I do believe, although I cannot speak for the op, that his post was ridiculing the spectacle, not ridiculing a particular religion or tradition.
Many posts have been deleted or locked when the mods found them to be too insensitive or inflammatory.
You are welcome to disagree of course, but I wouldn't come to du if I thought certain opinions would be censored. I am offended by many things I read on du. I usually just try to avoid the threads so that I don't get upset- seriously, I love to debate but some stuff is too close to my heart. When I do see something outrageous, I alert.
This will be over soon and we can hopefully go back to arguing over politics and all the regular hooplah.

Peace KerryTravelers

[Kerrytravelers]

114. My family is the same way.

We have the most macabe sense of humor. It took a bit of getting use to for my husband who had never heard people crack jokes about death. My family is from Kentucky, but my parents and i are now in California. My dad wants to be buried in KY because the small rural graveyard is free. However, carting him all the way to KY is expensive, so I always tell him if he gets even the slighest headcold, grab a shovel and a bus ticket and I'll be there for the funeral. I tell my mom I'm going to keep all my inheritance and toss her on the side of the road. We are a bit macabe. I acknowledge that humor isn't necessarily disrespectful. I really do.

I don't want anybody censored. Dear Lord, what a rethugish thing to want. Yuck! How Michael Powell of me. There are times I can not understand why the mods lock or delete threads.

When I read the op, I read it as making fun of the tradition. Other posts written didn't change my perception.

Actually, I haven't seen any political cartoons lately. I generally only look at Michael Moor's page, DU and any email my husband may send me. I hardly every look around too much. I just can't stomach it any longer. I get most of my news from either my husband filtering it for me or from the LBN here.

I really wasn't offended. I just used the opportunity to clear up any misconceptions or misunderstanding. I may have posted something that seemed as if I were offended, but I wasn't. Really.

"This will be over soon and we can hopefully go back to arguing over politics and all the regular hooplah."

Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!




Peace my friend!

kt

[beam me up scottie]

117. Yeah, once somebody gets offended

and says so, it usually goes downhill fast. I am obviously not above participating in snark fests.
I am living in KY, originally from Vermont. Tell your dad to dig a hole and mark it fast, there are so many housing developments and industries going up around here, there's almost no farmland left.
I'm in south central KY, near WKU. If it wasn't for the liberals from the university I would have jumped off a bridge soon after I moved here. Very religious area, I feel like I'm in a foreign country.
KY to CA must have been a culture shock too!

Personally, when I croak, I want them to throw my body off a cliff for the birds to eat like some Buddhist monks do. It is the ultimate act of unselfishness, donating your body to feed others. I'll be done using it.

ps don't come back here, listening to mitch the snitch and that psycho bunning is cruel and unusual punishment.

[Kerrytravelers]

119. You're in KY? What a small world!

"ps don't come back here, listening to mitch the snitch and that psycho bunning is cruel and unusual punishment."

Don't worry. I love Los Angeles too much to leave. And my parents love San Francisco too much to ever go back.




My dad was Air Force and fell in love with CA when he was stationed there. So, when he retired, we stayed here. He joined the AF when the Vietnam draft was coming around. All his buddies were being drafted in the Marines and he wasn't about to shoot anybody, so he joined the AF. He still went to Vietnam, but he never had to shoot anyone.

My famiy is from Lewis County- and they are all Democrats (whew!!!!!)Specifically, Vanceberg and Burtonville.



EDITED TO ADD:

YOu may e ok in snark fests, but I hate them .Whenever I see a snarky response, I get that feeling in the pit of my stomach. Ohhh, I hate it. I can totally take disagreement and debate, but snarkiness hits outside my comfort zone.

[beam me up scottie]

130. Your dad sounds like a great man.

I would love to move to SF. I'm actually considering moving to a nice park bench there, it would beat a duplex in KY any day. If I'm lucky, I can get a decent job and move into a storage unit by fall.
Expensive, but it's got to be worth it.

Snarkiness is an instinct with me, I have all brothers, I had to learn to be scrappy. It's not one of my better qualities, but thanks for understanding.

[Kerrytravelers]

134. They are outside the city, in a "bedroom community."

In Vacaville, the same town the Cindy Sheehen is from.

The Sheehan family lost their son, Casey, to *'s illegal war. Here is the link:



My dad isn't too bad. Being raised in the rural south, he is amazingly progressive. Some things take getting use to for him, and mom, too. They had never seen a gay couple before living in CA. BUt, before leaving the south and being stationed all over the world, they had never seen a mixed race couple, either. It's amazing how people can see the world and be around people who are different and grow and change. They raised me to understand that where they had come from, even though they were Dems, still stifled people and kept them from achieving because they were weighed down by fear and ignorance.

So thanks, my parents are great people! :)


P.S. I'm an only child, I never had to defend myself agsint snarky siblings. I don't have the practice of most other people in that area!

[beam me up scottie]

140. Oh, no. That site is heartbreaking.

One of my brothers will be going over there in June. He's in the state militia, helped out with floods and blizzards, never thought he'd have to do the chickenhawks' dirty job. He's got too much honor to refuse to go. He's much more patriotic than I, I'm an ex-marine and you couldn't pay me enough to go back in.
Cindy's son and my brother and many others don't have that luxury.
I'm glad to see so many calling it illegal, that's exactly what it is, we're not "at war" no matter how they spin it.
I cannot imagine... to lose a son and to know it wasn't for freedom but for greed...

I kinda prefer snarkfests over stupid things to reality sometimes.

[Kerrytravelers]

OMG Your brothers going? How horrible.

You will definetly be in my thoghts and prayers. Keep us updated. How tragic.

You're right. We're not "at war" at all. We've invaded. I can't believe guys like your brother being forced over there. This is all too tragic. How long has it ben sice you got out of the Marines? Hoopefully you don't get called back, too. They are so short of troops, they are calling guys who have retired 10 years or more. As a joke, I sent my Dad the conscious (sp) objector information, even though he retired in 1982. I told him, "even though you're 64, you still have a pulse, sop that makes you eligable."

I was only half kidding.

Let your brother know your DU family wil be thinking of him.

[beam me up scottie]

150. Thanks, I will.

I've been out way over 10 years so I'm good, besides, I know my way to Canada! Like I said, my brothers are the dedicated ones. I don't know what happened to this country. We certainly don't learn from history.

I hope my bro can have access to the internet when he's in country.
I talk to some of the troops, some even have web cams. Makes it easier on the families, especially spouses and kids.
Thanks for the kind thoughts, it helps.

[madeline_con]

142. I agree absolutely

I was surprised at the nastiness during the Terri debate.
Do we all have to fit in a little Dem Box, and do and say everything on the EXTREME left side? No. Thanks for your post. :)

[WillowTree]

106. "THat is what makes the left far superior.........."

You'd have trouble proving it by the way people have been posting both about the Pope's death and about people's religious beliefs around here over the last couple of weeks. I've seen enough intolerance and insensitivity in this forum lately to last a lifetime.

[madeline_con]

143. DITTO

I thought Dems were all warm and fuzzy and cared about freedom. I've found some just laugh if someone else believes in the existence of God.

[beam me up scottie]

81. Well, I never

in all my time on du, saw a thread title that was obviously satirical, went into the thread, read the opinions of the other posters only to become offended so that I could criticize the op so I could feel vindicated.
So there!
do I need to add : :sarcasm: ?

[expatriate]

83. Over the years, I've come to one conclusion.

That is that everyone in the world needs to mind their own business.

Just imagine if people did. We wouldn't be in a war in Iraq right now, that's for sure.

If you find the Pope lying in state, embalmed or not, distasteful, then for heaven's sake, DON'T LOOK!

Just because you don't agree with the practice, doesn't mean that other people don't agree with it. He's being buried according to the rituals of the Church he lived in all his life.

Do I agree with such rituals? Nope. But it isn't my business. I'm not a Catholic, how can it be for me to say what' right for them? I could care less about the Pope, so his passing and funeral rites are of no import to me. If it makes folks feel better to have a big funeral and viewing and the like, live and let live.

Look at something else if this offends or upsets you. Nobody is forcing you to look. The fact that you look even though you apparently find it all so offensive is very, very telling.

[beam me up scottie]

84. Mind their own business?

Do you know where you are?

[expatriate]

91. Yes, I do.

Both geographically, and the website I'm visiting.

I must say that it's very sad, seeing DU evolving into a place that is every bit as intolerant as the sites frequented by the right wingers that everyone at DU purportedly despise.

Ridiculing someone else's religious beliefs and practices is intolerant. Supposedly, DU is a website for liberals - but look at the threads. Thread after thread is full of ridicule for other people's religious beliefs. By refusing to understand or tolerate the beliefs of others, we become as rigid and intolerant as the most fundamental of fundies.

DU certainly doesn't come off as liberal any more. A "liberal" would be tolerant of others' beliefs, particularly if they weren't harming anyone else. Who here is hurt because people want to file by the Pope's corpse? Sure, I wouldn't do it, but if it blows up someone else's skirt, who am I to ridicule and deride their beliefs?

How can people ask for tolerance of their own beliefs and values if they spend time on a liberal message board bashing the beliefs and values of other people?

If someone is doing evil and harming others, as I believe that the Bush administration is doing, I'm all for activism and taking action, and I have, and I do. But just smearing the religious practices of people because they're "grotesque" or "bizarre"? That doesn't fit into any definition of liberal I've ever come across. It just comes off as just a little bit more Internet flaming.

[QC]

92. Unfortunately, people tend to become what they hate,

and if they spend all their time and energy hating freepers, well....

[beam me up scottie]

95. Why are you bringing up freepers?

nt

[QC]

110. Because lately it's getting harder and harder to tell the difference

between freepers and some of our enlightened "liberals" and "progressives."

This thread provides many excellent examples of what I mean.

[beam me up scottie]

132. I'll have to take your word for it.

nt

[beam me up scottie]

93. Actually it's a place where liberals are free

to voice their opinion.
That's what the op did, voice his opinion.
You are free to ignore it or alert if it's too terrible to bear.
Liberals are also very fond of freedom of speech.

[expatriate]

104. And I am also fond of freedom of speech

Voicing my opinion on the matter is allowed under freedom of speech, is it not? The OP exercised freedom of speech, so did I.

I objected to his intolerant view of the burial rites of a certain faith. He probably objects to my objection. Freedom of speech goes all ways, and a discussion forum should allow for those who disagree with an OP.

[beam me up scottie]

112. Ah, but he did not opine that

"everyone in the world needs to mind their own business."

You did.

:hi:

[expatriate]

115. Ah. Gotcha.

This I can understand - but don't I have the freedom of speech that permits me to say it?

So, my final take on the deal is - if you find the Pope lying in state so offensive, why are you looking at it?

Sort of like when kids fight and one says "Mom, he's LOOKING at me" and the mom says, "So don't look at him, and you won't see him looking at you."

I should have clarified my "mind your own business" line by saying "when it pertains to matters that do not affect you or other people negatively". I don't care what religion other people practice, so I mind my business about it. I don't care what funeral rites they practice, so I mind my business about it. I don't care if the Pope lies in state, so I don't pay any attention to it. At that point, their business is none of my business.

Now, if those people I'm being tolerant of come and tell me I have to do things their way, and I have to look at the Pope lying in state, when those people decide that their religion determines my government's policies and laws, when they stick their religion in my face - then they've made it my business.

As far as I can see, the Pope lying in state is no-one's business but that of those folks who venerate him or otherwise want to pay their respects. If they decided he was going to lie in state in my living room - then it would be my business.

So my bad.

[Discord]

126. then please, ask them to stop showing it on every news network

24/7 and get back to some real news. plenty of it out there.

But religion is never pushed onto the masses, never pushed on those who might decline to agree.

Just saying...

[expatriate]

145. I wish they didn't show it on every news network.

However, news networks jump at anything like this - anyone who has attained a certain degree of celebrity dying. They don't necessarily have to be religious figures either. When a standing President of the US dies, it's wall to wall coverage. When Princess Diana died, the network feeding frenzy was incredible. The Pope ranks right up there in celebrity status, and when a Pope dies, there is this kind of coverage. I've seen two Popes buried now, and it was this way each time. Same when President Kennedy was assassinated, and after the assassination attempt on Reagan. The media industry considers the deaths of prominent figures "big news" and "good business", and they cover these deaths accordingly.

I don't know if the intense coverage is an attempt to push religion on the masses or not. It was done when the last Pope Paul died, and when Pope John Paul I died as well, and the political climate in America wasn't as conservative or as intensely religious then as it is now.

About the only thing to do is to vote with your channel selector - either find some channel that isn't covering the Pope's funeral, or do something else. Not a good option, to be sure, but about the only feasible one if you find the entire thing disturbing.

Myself, I tend to avoid television news coverage. It's incredibly biased and slanted toward the sensational. While they do wall to wall coverage of the Pope's funeral rites, other stories that are really much more important and which will affect far more people are just slipping right on by. But news coverage long ago stopped being about news, and is now "infotainment".

To all, I'm just sorry I participated in this thread.

[Discord]

162. It's not even just that. They see something like this

and they pull every religious show or documentry or anything thats been made about religion down off the shelf and give it some airtime. Its everywhere...

This country is slipping into a very dangerous direction towards preparing people to have "faith" in a wholesome goodness Theocracy.

Did you see the CRA (constitution restoration act) they are submitting?

scary shit...

[madeline_con]

148. The Vatican Guard is coming...

to rearrange your furniture. You may have a seat :popcorn:

as the throngs file past... :hi:

[scarletwoman]

96. Bravo! (or, Brava! -- as the case may be...) Excellent post!

"How can people ask for tolerance of their own beliefs and values if they spend time on a liberal message board bashing the beliefs and values of other people?"

This is why I rarely post here anymore -- I'm too often appalled at the close-mindedness and shallow thinking here.

sw

[beam me up scottie]

99. Boy you guys must really hate the liberal

cartoonists. Good thing most liberals have a sense of humor or nobody would read them.

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beam me up scottie]

118. Nice response you made: " "fuck you" for your stupid post."

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Really compassionate that was. Just like chimpy's idea of compassion, isn't it?
:rofl:

[scarletwoman]

121. Well, I obviously found the right level to get your attention, didn't I...

since none of the rest of my post apparently made the slightest impression on you.

[beam me up scottie]

124. No, when a tolerant person tells me "f*ck you" I pretty much

skip the rest, don't you?

[madeline_con]

149. Gosh

I wonder what THAT said...

[expatriate]

107. I love liberal cartoonists, and all forms of satire and political comment

In fact, I'm a cartoonist myself.

Why is it that I could have posted here and said "yeah, that's so gross! Ewwwww! Man, am I ever sicked out over that old poo-head rotting in the sun! They're so grotesque and bizarre!" and people would have thought it was fine, but when I mention that the OP smacks of intolerance, I'm way out of line?

Is there now a new definition of freedom of speech specifically for DU?

Intolerance and ignorance can masquerade as liberalism just as it can masquerade as conservatism. Ignorance and intolerance are very much at the bottom of much of the misery in the world.

I think the OP was intolerant. You may not think so.

[WillowTree]

111. Self-delete

Wrong place. Sorry.

[scarletwoman]

116. Maybe "common decency" isn't considered a "liberal" value?

I've been here at DU for almost 4 years. I post only sporadically anymore, it gets so disheartening around here sometimes. I see so much of what "we" excoriate the right wing about, reflected here in almost perfect mirror image.

My parents (bless them!) -- children of the Depression, young adults during WWII (my dad is a vet), and diehard liberals -- brought me up to be respectful of others above all else.

I personally believe that we have a responsibility to always endeavor to add to the sum total of GOODNESS in the world, in order to counterbalance all the negative as best we can.

sw

[beam me up scottie]

120. As I said, you wanted people to mind their own business,

I thought it an odd remark for du, but you are free to tell me to shut up as well if you want to.
I'm certainly not telling YOU to mind your own business, am I?

;-)

edit sp

[WillowTree]

113. Sometimes people get so wrapped up...

....in their freedom of speech that they forget that there's such a thing as manners. I've seen an awful lot of that around here lately. If it doesn't matter to the majority at DU that they're making liberals look like a gang of intolerant boors, there's nothing the rest of us can do about it. We get to wear the label, too, though, so we tend to use our own freedom of speech to comment about it.

Tell us, though, does that well-honed sense of humor serve you well when you hear freepers exercising THEIR first amendment freedom by mocking and ridiculing gays or athiests or anything else you might think is deserving of respect and fair-mindedness? Because, hey, they're just having fun, right?

[beam me up scottie]

122. Actually, I don't go over there, but since you know so

much about their posts, you must be a regular.
See, I don't go looking for reasons to be offended, it wouldn't be difficult there's plenty on du that is insensitive, I prefer to ignore it.
But if you get your jollies from reading the posts from an entire thread of a satirical nature and then complaining about how "intolerant" they are, have at it.

You'd have time for little else, apparently.

Be offended, be very offended.

And see, the post above replied "f*-- you and your stupid post" to me.
That's free speech, and an awfully nice example of her "tolerance"


:evilgrin:

[WillowTree]

125. I never said I "go over there"...

....or know what they post. Never been there, in fact, and have no plans to. I hear plenty about what goes down on that site just reading here. I do encounter my fair share of freeper types IRL, however. I'm pleased for your sake that you, apparently, don't.

[beam me up scottie]

127. Willow, I've never had a problem with you.

We've disagreed about one or two things, but I never insulted you or brought up freepers. People get offended, other people get offended that the offended people are offended, we could go on like this all night. I don't look for threads to spoil. I'm sick and twisted, the op is sick and twisted, there's a bunch of us on here that are sick and twisted, if it's over the line, hit alert, let the mods handle it or complain about by adding your own post, but don't attack me when I respond.

[WillowTree]

137. Wasn't meant as an attack...

....but if it came across that way, I apologize. I sometimes don't do sarcasm well and should probably avoid such attempts. Will work on it. No promises that I won't slip, though. I know me too well.

And I'll see your sick and twisted and raise you two old and dementeds. So there!

Again, I'm sorry if I treated you unfairly.

[beam me up scottie]

146. I knew I liked you!

Sorry to jump your post too, I can be too quick on the trigger.
Things have been so tense around here. I try to avoid gd when it's bad, but I can't help myself. I got insanely angry over the "shut up" threads last week so I'm still a bit over-sensitive.
It's much more sane in the other forums for the most part. I actually learned a few things today, along with my snark-hunting. I like a well-balanced insanity binge on du, it matches the rest of my life.

And I'll try to be more diplomatic, you taught me something too.
:toast:

[eek MD]

159. It's difficult not to "look" at something that's covered in the media 24/7

I think it's a bit strange. That's my opinion on it. I could shut myself in a closet for a week to get away from having to hear about it, but i need food and water, and i need to go to work.

I haven't seen people advocating that they shouldn't be able to do this if they want. Some of us just find it strange.

[theboss]

85. For Catholics under 30, he is the only Pope they have known

And for the rest, it's almost difficult to remember any other Pope. John Paul II has been around that long, was that dominating a figure, and was, well, that charismatic.

I imagine this how most Americans must have felt when FDR died. Who else could ever be President after that?

This is really turning into the most close-minded, judgmental site on the web lately.

[beam me up scottie]

87. "most Americans must have felt when FDR died"

yes, that is exactly what it's like

[Discord]

94. wow. your right...

"I imagine this how most Americans must have felt when FDR died...

This is really turning into the most close-minded, judgmental site on the web lately."


You might have a future in psychology. You've got self-analysis and delusions of grandeur down pat.

[Swede]

88. It's neither bizarre or grotesque.

There always viewing the dead in Catholic ceremonies. It's better than hiding everything and pretending that death doesn't happen.

[theboss]

90. My family practically crawls into the casket with them

They are a little intense. My mom is a very straight-laced, stoic Protestant. I think she is a little afraid of my dad's side.

[donheld]

98. Each to their own i guess

I don't want to look at dead bodies, but if someone does why should i care?

[onager]

123. I grew up with "viewings..."

...in the rural South. I still think they're weird. And goofy. Sue me.

I don't know of anyone, even back there, who still does it in the family home, which was the custom when I was growing up.

I'll never forget one of my cousins, who cut across a guy's yard at night and the asshat fired a .22 rifle "to scare him." He hit my cousin right in the temple and killed him instantly. He was 17.

At the viewing, you could clearly see where the bullet-hole had been filled with...something. I still have bad dreams about that.

When my father died, I almost got into fist-fights with some of his relatives. They wanted to take photos of him in the coffin. At the funeral.

I got the funeral director aside and told him my mother was torn up enough, and didn't need to see that kind of shit. Under no circumstances would there be pictures taken of his body. I also told the undertaker if he couldn't manage that, I would, even if I had to disrupt the service and rip a camera out of somebody's hands. (Nobody took pictures, but our side of the family heard about it for years.)

For the record we were Southern Baptists, though I've been a happy atheist for many years now.

[madeline_con]

128. OMG!

I had a horrific dream, that they had his body STANDING!!!

It woke me up, and I was feeling freaky all day. How much embalming fluid did they USE??

I keep hoping it's a dummy in a death mask...

[earth mom]

139. I was shocked at first by how they had laid the Pope out...

but after a few minutes of taking it all in...it made me feel a bit more comfortable with death in a way...maybe because he looks like he's sleeping....

[greyl]

144. mini statue of a crucifixion around their neck...

It took Marilyn Manson jarring me from the stupor of 8 years of Catholic inculcation to recognize how fucked up a religious symbol that particular idol is.

"Hey! Let's all hang a small sculpture of a torturous death around our necks! Hang one in your bedroom! Don't look at a female breast! God is beautiful! Vote Republican!"

[beam me up scottie]

151. ROFLMAO!!!

:rofl:
nt

[Dookus]

153. there is much to admire

about Marilyn Manson.

[greyl]

154. Yeah.

I think he's a real person.
Those are rare, now'days.


:)

[Bouncy Ball]

168. I saw his interview in "Bowling for Columbine"

and he struck me as mature and thoughtful. Color me surprised (I bought the hype previous to seeing that).

My husband's always liked his music. So that brought me around. He's a neat person.

[Kerrytravelers]

172. The sad thing is, most RC in the US use to be Dems b/c of the .

social justice beliefs and the concerns for the poor. But the fundy thing got started in there, too and now it's 50/50.

[Bridget Burke]

155. Funerary customs vary widely.

The National Museum of Funeral History is located in Houston. Current features include a diorama of a Civil War embalmer & amazing Fantasy Coffins from Ghana.

www.nmfh.org/

Be sure to drop by the Gift Shop for a T-shirt!

[Snivi Yllom]

160. Lenin has been on display since 1924 if you want to talk about grotesque

It's not my thing, but I understand and respect the need for faithful to pay last respects to the Pope.

You should respect those feelings.

[Bouncy Ball]

169. He's got to be SERIOUSLY embalmed.

And is he lying on a cold area, like ice or dry ice or something?

Wow.

[DARE to HOPE]

164. We saw a National Geographic show about elephants a few years ago...

...this group of African elephants had found a pile of elephant bones bleaching in the sun. They clearly showed they knew it was a fellow elephant who had died. They caressed the bones, laid them out, walked round and round them, and bleated sounds like mourning. It was a ritual for the dead.

It was the most touching show of the strength of the brain and spirit of these amazing animals--it moved us very much.

[Bouncy Ball]

167. Which is why I'm not watching any news on TV and haven't

since last weekend, when I was trapped in a hotel room and could hardly get away from it.

At home, I have more options and at work, TV ISN'T an option anyway.

I can't believe it is still going on. When is his burial?

[ElsewheresDaughter]

171. oh you are just so so jewish and when they put him outside........

on the steps tomorrow to bake in the hot Itialian sun he will be in a casket...ya might be able to smell him but you will not see the Pope during the 4/5 hour funeral Mass and ceremony :7...bet ja bush didn't have a clue as to how long he will have to sit in that same hot sun in St Peters Square tomorrow when he decided to try and garnish some American catholic votes by announcing that he was going(hehehe he will wantta chock Rove when he gets back).

[Cuban_Liberal]

173. He's not in the sun.

He's inside St. Peter's...

[ElsewheresDaughter]

174. FAR less "bizarre, grotesque" than Rabbi ordered to stop oral circumcision

Rabbi ordered to stop oral circumcisions
... A New York health commissioner has ordered a rabbi to stop performing oral-suction circumcisions and to take a herpes test. ...
www.in-my-opinion.org/in-my-opinion-3794.html

A New York health commissioner has ordered a rabbi to stop performing oral-suction circumcisions and to take a herpes test. The New York City Health Department has said three infants circumcised by the rabbi contracted herpes and that one died. The health commissioner stated if the the rabbi refused to take the herpes test, she would get a court order to force him to do so.

The Pediatric Infectious Disease Journal ... The mohel who performed both circumcisions had no history of oral herpetic... oral-genital contact when performing ritual circumcisions in the future. ...
www.pidj.com/pt/re/pidj/fulltext.00006454-200003000-00025.htm

[Skinner]

175. And I think it's time for a break from this thread too.

I'm locking.