T or F? Anyone who sees illegal immigration as a problem must be a racist.

[republicansareevil]

Forget about the "Minutemen" for now. They are a distraction from the real issue. There are many people on DU who see illegal immigration as an important concern. Who here thinks that anyone who feels that way must be a racist? Perhaps we're not as divided on this as it seems.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

1. Uhm, no.

If they were anti-immigration in general, that would make you racist, yes. But there's a good reason why the word "illegal" is there. If you're happy about illegal immigration, chances are good that you own a sweatshop.

[Walt Starr]

3. Actually, anti-immigration is xenophobia.

Although racism could still be a part of it, anti-immigration implies you would also oppose immigrants from Western Europe with equal vehemence to opposing immigrants from Asia.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

15. Fair enough - I stand corrected.

Although I'm sure one could probably find a direct correlation between the two in many people.

[Walt Starr]

26. Agreed

You can have one without the other, but in many cases you'll find both.

[H2O Man]

18. Good point.

However, the OP referred specifically to illegal immigration. That is an important distinction, which separates it from racism or xenophobia.

[Walt Starr]

27. Yep, this is definitely a side thread to that one

I see nothing wrong with immigration. I do have a problem with illegal immigration.

[H2O Man]

39. I agree.

There are ways to deal fairly with immigrants, that do not exclude respect for the law.

[Deep13]

22. False

Xenophobia is the irrational fear of foreigners. First of all, I don't see how anyone can be reasobably criticized for wanting the law enforced. Second, increased population is bad for the nation and the world. The USA has largely managed to maintain a zero population growth. We have no duty to allow that to be undermined by illegal immigration. Allowing unlawful immigration so companies can get cheap labor undermines the value of local people. It debases citizenship.

Your assumption about objecting to immigrants from Europe ignores reality. The bulk of new people in this country is coming from south of our border, not from Western Europe.

With all its problems, America is in pretty good shape compared to much of the world. Many have labored, fought and suffered to make it that way. Mexico is a nation rich in resources. If people there are unhappy about how things are, they need to take responsibility for their country and fix things instead of abandoning it to escape to this country.

[TalkingDog]

28. Xenophobia is a fear of ( alien/different things) strangers.

Being against illegal immigration may spring from Xenophobia or it may come from other causes. So being Anti-Immigration is not necessarily Xenophoic.

I live in a state which has the fastest growing Hispanic population in the country. There are a lot of folks who came here legally, but many more who are here illegally. I have friends who are illegals.

The problem gets to be a tax base problem. Many illegals are paid with the President's Discount (under the table cash) so that business people (farmers/construction contractors and such) can pay them a lot less and make more for themselves. Those unpaid taxes - literally millions of dollars every year- mean that our infrastructure is supporting more people than are paying into it.

Yes, there are local and state taxes on goods, but our taxes go to pay for roads and schools and environmental concerns which are now seriously underfunded for the number of users.

The other issue, going back to the second paragraph, is that these "discount" workers are not given health insurance, workers comp. or any other benefit that would be required if they were legal. I've heard of local farmers "renting" a 2 bedroom trailer to families with 10 or more people in them, no running water or septic system. And they are paid a fraction of what a legal would be REQUIRED to recieve under the law.

That's why I'm against any illegal immigration. They are harming us and they are allowing themselves to be harmed by staying here.

[lala_rawraw]

56. are we talking legal immigration? i thought...

It was a whole other conversation.

[applegrove]

66. We are talking about anit- illegal immigration. Much different. n/t

[Walt Starr]

2. False

Illegal immigration is a major problem and either enforcement efforts must be altered or the immigration laws must be altered.

[mr_hat]

4. Illegal Swedes.

[seventythree]

5. false

[Q3JR4]

6. You know, I ain't touching it.

:hide:

[jonnyblitz]

7. FALSE. my problem is with the vigilantes. period.

the vigilante apologists are trying to say that is what we are saying.

[lala_rawraw]

57. Well, I would respect the more if there was a similar

Group at the north border.

[Burma Jones]

8. I believe "Illegal" Immigration will never be stopped

because it pumps billions into the Social Security System:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1112817711-JYQ2OkXkLmlTw9LzVMgD3g&pagewanted=print&position=


And because it provides business with a work force very near slavery.

On Edit: Being against Illegal Immigration is not racist if you are against it because it allows such rampant exploitation of powerless people. Right wingers would probably retort, with some justification, that even at slave wages, they're better off than when they were in their native lands.

However, I will say that I've never heard ANYONE bitch about illegal European immigration..............

[movie_girl99]

9. i have no problem with anyone coming here

my problem is people coming here illegally, working, not paying taxes and sending vast amounts of their earnings back to their mother land. My husband comes from the UK and we paid dearly to get him here legally so that he could work etc.. i realize that we could've done it for much less $ on our own but I was working at a new job and could not take days of to wait in huge lines at the INS.

[blondeatlast]

58. They pay plenty of taxes--read the NYT article posted above.

My hubby's from India, and I have no problem whatsoever with border crossers--really, none whatsoever.

I even am friends with one.

[movie_girl99]

67. i too know many of them

my ex husband is a builder and uses many of them but pays them contract labor so no taxes are taken out of their checks. I'm not saying all illegals do this but many do.

[AValdoux]

10. False

I'm against the employers who take advantage of a third world country on the other side of border. No one talks about protesting them.

My husband is a journeyman carpenter who saw his union destroyed over the last 25 years and his wages plummet. I blame the contractors who hire "carpenters" who'll work for $7/hr. They pay in cash, no questions asked.

AValdoux

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

11. False. Illegal immigration is a muti-factorial problem.

And in fact, it is FAR more a human rights issue for the illegal immigrant than for the person complaining about it since sweat shops, sex slaves and poor working conditions are not the hallmarks of legal immigrants.

That said (and I can't leave the Minutemen out of this since it's relevant) targetting people because of the color of their skin is racist.

Furthermore, I think the illegal immigration issue is totally overblown. You rarely see an article complaining about illegal immigration and ticking off the costs of such abominations that factors in all of the economic BENEFITS that illegal immigrants have provided to us...it's always COSTS COSTS COSTS without factoring in that they provide our produce in the grocery store for less, they pay state, federal and sales taxes and they pay INTO social security without withdrawing from their accounts.

So..it is FALSE that anyone concerned about illegal immigration is a racist or bigot, but it is TRUE that anyone that ticks off all the costs and harms of illegal immigration while IGNORING the very obvious benefits they have provided is either a racist, bigot, xenophobe or all of the above AND an ignoramus.

Sorry to state this in such strong terms, but when one IGNORES the benefits they have received from a group while only complaining about them, they deserve to be considered in the harshest of terms.

[Selatius]

19. Simple fact is they should not be paying taxes at all

Nor should they be paying into Social Security without claiming benefits. It's unfair not only to them but to everyone. The benefits are economic such as cheaper products, but I doubt you'd find anyone that could morally justify such benefits if it comes at the expense of human rights, human dignity, or the law.

[Dookus]

36. Thank you, NSMA

Well said.

I'm disappointed that so many want to make this a Democratic party issue. As a Californian, I consider illegal-immigrant-bashing solely a Republican issue. The Democrats should be making the points you made in your post.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

38. You can always tell when the economy is worse than Wall Street or admin

will admit. It becomes open season on Mexicans.

[blondeatlast]

60. Wow--excellent point, excellent. So true. nt

[republicansareevil]

64. What about the people "complaining" BECAUSE of the human rights issues?

Many people are interested in reducing illegal immigration in large part because of the exploitation of the illegal immigrants.

That said, is it racist to even examine the possible negative effects on the US economy as well? The reason Bush isn't doing anything about illegal immigration isn't that he's such a compassionate conservative. It's that it provides a cheap source of labor for American companies to exploit, and it weakens the wage bargaining position of low-level American workers in the process. When we discuss the problem of American companies incorporating in the Bermudas for tax breaks or outsourcing tech jobs to India, must it be assumed that we are just bigoted against Bermudans and Indians?

As for illegal immigrants paying into the US tax system, why would that be something any liberal would be happy about? I don't want to benefit from the exploitation of others any more than I want greedy companies to benefit.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

sorry..dupe post

[sadiesworld]

12. False.

[Democrats_win]

13. As penance for bush: we've got beer and pretzels for our foreign friends.

Its the end of the world, lets party. (bring some petro!)

[Bridget Burke]

14. This should be an essay question, not T/F.

At the very least, make it multiple choice.

[republicansareevil]

16. you can write an essay

:)

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

34. No all people are NOT racist in some form

If the shoe fits, do wear it, but I am not a racist and I do not favor people being detained by vigilantes simply due to the color of their skin. Furthermore, our POLICIES in those countries have INSURED poverty for the vast majority of their populations.

I think it's humorous you cite an illegal pissing on your property..we piss all over theirs.

[Balbus]

35. Whose property did you piss on?

[PeaceProgProsp]

20. I think they're just uninformed and mean-spirited.

[republicansareevil]

29. Can you elaborate? (nt)

[PeaceProgProsp]

32. I have in a half-dozen other posts in the last day.

And the condensed version of those other posts:

- They don't understand economics, and
- The phrase "we all do better when we all do better" means nothing to them.

[Maestro]

40. She is referring to a now locked thread

of mine. The reason she hates Mexican illegal immigration is because a Mexican whom she supposes is illegal pissed in front of 13 year old son. Disgusting, yes, but she considers the act so abhorrent that she assumes all must act this way. When confronted with facts she referenced only sites run and developed by neo-cons. She is either sorely misinformed and doesn't want to admit it or a freeper in disguise.

You can read her comments here.

Thread in question

[amazona]

21. I'm going to vote false

All racists believe illegal immigration of brown peoples is a problem.

That doesn't mean that all people who believe that illegal immigration is a problem are racist.

We used to have Venn diagrams in grammar school to describe these logic problems, but it was the New Math and no doubt has passed from fashion. Suffice it to say that just because a racist believes the sky is blue, I do not have to stomp my feet and announce that the sky is red.


I think you can be concerned about the rights and well-beings of the Mexican people and that you can still be concerned about the way illegal immigration and hiring under the table is driving down real wages and creating wide-spread poverty. Businesses must be forced to pay fair wages. When they have easy access to people who will work off the books and have good reason never to unionize or draw any attention to themselves, they are in business for profit and they're going to hire at the slave wages instead of the legal worker.

I think anyone can acknowledge that it's wrong to pit worker against worker and that illegal immigration is beyond doubt a huge, huge, huge problem. If the illegal immigrant came from Iceland and took your job, you wouldn't care that he was lily white. You'd still be upset and worried about your future.

If we make it about race, we're just allowing ourselves to distracted by the usual distractions Big Business puts in the air whenever they want cheaper labor.

Keep your eye on the ball.

The sky is blue.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[solinvictus]

23. False...

Unfortunately here, many can't see past the accusations of racism to the economic harm illegal immigration inflicts on American blue collar workers.

[Maestro]

42. Inflict on the economy or just blue collar workers?

One of the many sites that SemiQuarkCharmed referenced says otherwise. Why can't some people believe this?

Myth Number 2: Most immigrants are a drain on the U.S. economy or treasury

Here’s the truth about immigrants, taxes and the economy:

* All individuals who work in the United States are required to pay federal income taxes. The only exception is if they are exempted due to their level of earnings, a provision of the tax code that results in no taxes, or a bilateral tax treaty.

* Significant total taxes are paid by immigrants. Immigrant households paid an estimated $133 billion in direct taxes to federal, state, and local governments in 1997, according to a study by Cato Institute economist Steve Moore.8

* State level tax payments approximate natives. Immigrants in New York State pay over $18 billion a year in taxes, over 15 percent of the total, and roughly proportional to 3 their size in the state’s population, according to a study by the Urban Institute. Average annual tax payments by immigrants are approximately the same as natives—$6,300 for immigrants versus $6,500 natives.9

* Long-run benefit. The National Academy of Sciences concluded that “Over the long run an additional immigrant and all descendants would actually save the taxpayers $80,000.”10

* States come out ahead. In Congressional testimony, University of California, Berkeley economist Ronald Lee, the principal author of the fiscal analysis in the National Academy of Sciences study, concluded that a dynamic analysis, with the appropriate assumptions, would likely show that 49 of the 50 states come out ahead fiscally from immigration, with California a close call.11

* Some of the Academy study is misused. Professor Lee testified that some have misinterpreted the Academy study’s use of the annual costs of immigrant households to argue that immigrants are a large fiscal cost to states. He has stated that “These numbers do not best represent the panel’s findings and should not be used for assessing the consequences of immigration policies.” He found that it is misleading, on an annual basis, to calculate the schoolage, native-born children of immigrants as costs caused by immigrant households but not to include the taxes paid by those children when they enter the workforce. Professor Lee also testified: “Reducing immigration would make it more difficult to support the health and retirement of the baby boom generation.”12

* Overall economic benefits of immigration. The report by the National Academy of Sciences also found that immigrants benefit the U.S. economy overall, have little negative effect on the income and job opportunities of most native-born Americans, and may add as much as $10 billion to the economy each year. As a result, the report concluded, most Americans enjoy a healthier economy because of the increased supply of labor and lower prices resulting from immigration.13

* Economists agree on immigration’s benefits. In a poll of eminent economists conducted by the CATO Institute in the mid-1980s and updated in 1990, 81 percent of the respondents opined that, on balance, twentieth-century immigration has had a “very favorable” effect on U.S. economic growth.14 Moreover, 56 percent of the economists polled believed that more immigration would have the most favorable impact on the U.S. standard of living, while another 33 percent felt that the current levels of immigration would have the most favorable impact.15

http://www.aila.org/contentViewer.aspx?bc=17,142#section3

The real evil here is the cheap labor conservatives that employ illegals. If they didn't do this, they would not come. If they gave a decent wage and paid for medical coverage and pensions of Americans, then the undocumented would not nor could not be hired. Blame business; not the illegals.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

43. You know..I'll give you that BUT

remember my father worked with Chavez. If you work toward THEIR rights, you protect your own. The Teamsters got behind Chavez and UNIONIZED farm labor which ELEVATED their status rather than undermining the American worker's status. Now unfortunately, even organized labor seems to drop the ball where migrant worker issues are concerned.

[republicansareevil]

24. I'm glad to see the "false"s have been almost unanimous.

I think amazona said it well. Just because there are racists who oppose illegal immigration, doesn't mean everyone who opposes illegal immigration is a racist. I'm glad that so many DUers seem to understand that. There has been a lot of "racism" talk lately, and I think it has been creating a lot of discord. It seemed like some people were saying that anyone concerned about illegal immigration was a racist. I'm glad to see that is not a widespread sentiment (at least based on the responses to this thread so far).

[adwon]

25. False

Personally, I don't much care if present illegals are given amnesty or citizenship or what. Deporting the total amount, I keep hearing 11 million, would be extremely taxing.

That being said, I'd prefer to see a total freeze on immigration for a few years until we can get the proper infrastructure in place to deal with immigration in a rational way. After the infrastructure would be in place, I would prefer a policy of zero net immigration (no more in than go out) mostly to tighten up wages in the US. Granted, refugees and spouses of citizes would be automatically exempt from these provisions.

I have no problem with immigration or immigrants generally (I've known far too many immigrants to have an overall negative view). Virtually every immigrant I've known has been a good and decent person with the willingness to chase the goals they've set. I have to agree with the posters who view the immigration problem as a problem of elites and not of the immigrants themselves.

[tamtam]

30. False

[tsuki]

31. I see them here working hard, construction work for minimum

wage, maybee. I see them working at least 48 hours a week. I see them with no benefits, worker's comp or medical insurance. I see them 8-10 in a trailer. I see them at the bank cashing their checks every two weeks for a little more than $400.00 using their thumbprint as an endorsement.

Sixteen tons and what do you get
A little bit older and deeper in debt
St. Peter dontcha call me 'cuz I cain't come
I owe my sole to the company store.

If that makes me a racist, then I guess I'm a racist.

[More Than A Feeling]

33. False

There is a huge difference between being a racist and supporting legal immigrants who went through the proper channels over people who broke the law to get here.

[tammywammy]

37. False

I think there is a problem with illegal immigration and the corporations that abuse said people.

But, I'm not against immigration at all, or the least bit racist.

BTW the only (admitted) illegal immigrant that I've ever known (as far as I know) was English. He came over here on a travel visa and stayed. He's now married with a daughter, and working on getting his green card.

[Cleita]

41. No, I think illegal immigration is a problem but not for

the same reasons presented by those, who from their own posts and in their own words have proved beyond an shadow of a doubt that they are racist and use the illegal immigration issue to frame their debate.

btw you can't really forget the Minutemen because that is what started all of this to begin with. Maybe at another time, this conversation can be had rationally and intelligently with real issues and solutions.

[acmavm]

44. Legal immigration is fine. Illegal immigration is illegal, and that means

FOR EVERYONE WHO ENTERS THE COUNTRY ILLEGALLY, be they brown, yellow, black, white, or sky-blue-pink.

What happened while I wasn't looking? Some people think that some laws should be optional? Which ones do I get to ignore?

[Maestro]

47. Nobody thinks the laws are optional for some

Those of us that stand up for the illegal immigrant are simply saying that some are attacking the wrong people. These damn threads should be about the cheap labor conservatives who attract the immigrants, mostly illegal. Why don't we see thread about that? If these companies didn't offer dirt wages to undocumented workers avoiding having to hire legal immigrants or Americans; consequently avoiding payroll taxes, medical converage and pensions, the undocumenteds source of employment would dry up. Many here when it comes to immigration sound so freeperish. It's downright scary. Blame the right entity, would you all?

[Cleita]

48. Not only are they attacking the wrong people, but those

people are also being unfairly selected from a much larger demographic who aren't harrassed at all.

[republicansareevil]

50. Can 1 oppose ill. immigration & not be seen as attacking ill. immigrants?

I don't understand the distinction some people make between stopping illegal immigration at the border and stopping it by cracking down on the employers who hire illegally. As someone else pointed out, isn't the effect the same in the end? Why should one be seen as a "progressive" solution and one as a right-wing solution?

I don't know whether the financial contribution made to this country by illegal immigrants is greater than or less than the detrimental effects of illegal immigration. It may be that the economy in general is enriched but that those Americans at the bottom of the economic ladder do not come out ahead. In any case, I don't WANT my economy enriched at the expense of illegal immigrants.

[Maestro]

52. Because it is obvious that many here have some

sort of ill-will against them. Hell some even support the fucking Minutemen racists thugs. Nobody, not even my thread from yesterday is trying to say, "Support illegal immigration." The framing of the debate though seems to be, "Illegals rob my livelihood, pissed in front of my son, trespass, overburden schools, overburden hospitals, don't pay taxes, blah, blah, blah."

A more progressive stance would be to understand the distinctly human reasons for trying to provide for a family and empathize with them while at the same time attacking those who will continually employ them with no benefits and low wages. This is what hurts Americans; not the damn immigrants, legal or illegal. The frame of the debate is all wrong here at DU and it angers me to no end. The debate should be: "Call for hiring reform as practiced by cheap labor lovin' companies." Are the Miniscule Men going to solve that problem? No, yet we go on and on about the illegal immigrants. Jesus Christ, people, pull your head out. :rant:

[republicansareevil]

62. It's possible to sympathize but still acknowledge the negative effects.

I think illegal immigrants contribute in some ways but drain money in some other ways. One important negative effect is that they undermine wages for American workers at the bottom of the economic ladder, just like non-union workers undermine the wages sought by unions. I don't know how things balance out in the end, but even if it's to the plus side, I'd still be against illegal immigration on principle.

I have sympathy for the reasons people enter the country and work illegally, but that doesn't mean I have to pretend that illegal immigration doesn't hurt Americans as well.

As for how to reduce the illegal immigration problem, I agree that hiring reforms are an important part of the solution, but it can't be the entire solution. We do need to secure our borders as well. For one thing, terrorist sneaking into the country are not going to be affected by hiring reforms. For another thing, it's not always possible to track what companies are doing. There have been illegal immigrants discovered working here in virtual slavery.

I agree that the debate is mostly framed wrong at DU, but I just don't see very much of the "I hate Mexicans" attitude that some people seem to see around here. Instead, I see people trying to have productive discussions but charges and accusations of racism, or perhaps paranoia about being considered a racist, seem to be getting in the way.

[Just Me]

45. False. The issue is really about the "rule of law" and corporatists,...

,...exploiting ALL people.

[Piperay]

46. False nt

[Pushed To The Left]

49. I think we all agree on one thing:

I think we all agree that cheap labor conservatives are enemy #1 on this issue! They profit from illegal immigration by exploiting cheap labor and screwing legal workers, many of whom are immigrants as well. If we think of protecting the border as an assault on the cheap labor conservative right wing, I think we will all be surprised by how much we actually agree on!

[Mr_Spock]

51. Huh?

What does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

[republicansareevil]

53. Because I think the "racism" chatter is getting in the way

There are a lot of people who see illegal immigration and unsecured borders as a real concern, for multiple and complex reasons. The "Minutemen," however, have caused the conversation to be focused entirely on racism against Mexicans. I think if the majority of us can agree that one can be concerned about illegal immigration without being a racist, that we will be able to have more productive discussions.

[Mr_Spock]

63. Oh, there are so many Mexicans in those states legally - how can racism

be a really big factor? It may be for some - but that's gonna happen anywhere - I guess I don't think it should get in the way of the argument because I don't think it's all that relevant...

[Pinata Monkey]

54. My Take

Republicans get cheap labor to boost profits...and Democrats don't want to look insensitive. It'd be nice is someone would just deal with the damned issue as it sits.

[lala_rawraw]

55. False

That is absurd and anyone who sees something this complex as a racial issue may need to do some research. Amnesty, however, is another matter and one without border restrictions in my opinion. I came here, legally, and honestly. At some point, those of us here have to eat too, no? This is complex and the focus on Mexico is simply because both Bush and Fox are exploiting the people for their own greed and Bush's own racism. Bush and Co want cheap labor, e.g. Confederacy. Fox wants money to pour in, so he does not have to spend his own. So the real question should be not if our views on illegal immigration are racist, but why both leaders devalue the people at the center of the question.

Would it not make sense for Fox to create his own healthy economy and for Bush to require corporations to treat people humanely?

It is far more complex than racism, although the people who feel that way would have you believe to be so.

[LittleClarkie]

59. It's more the "illegal" part

not the "immigration" part that concerns me.

Not being concerned with it would seem to do a disservice to those who went through the trouble to come into America legally.

Not to mention the national security issues. Those aren't all "guest workers" coming across the border, I would assume.

It's more a matter of following the law really.

[Deja Q]

61. False, it is not racist. It is a concern, but it is not inherantly racist

[BuyingThyme]

65. False

But you may have noticed that the people who support illegal immigration almost always begin by making absurd ethnocentric generalizations about Mexicans.

Then they -- without being able to give examples -- go on to blame other DU-ers for doing exactly what they're doing (but from the other side of the argument).

Go figure.