Was John the XXIII ahead of his time? Please read

[n2mark]

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_xxiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_j-xxiii_enc_11041963_pacem_en.html


After reading this ... just wondering. It is geared toward today. He was one for all the people too. Some of it sounds like our deceased Pope, but Pope John was more for the people in my opinion.

[dogman]

1. I've been disappointed because I think this was the highpoint.

It's been thrown in reverse in my opinion. I see it as a return to the Dark Ages.

[n2mark]

3. I don't understand what you are saying!

please explain...

[dogman]

6. I felt that advances were being made under Pope John XXIII.

It strikes me the Church retreated from this progress and pulled back into a "comfort zone" for many. Pope John Paul II is popular but I feel the traditional Church's time has passed. It's just my take from a distance as I left some time ago.

[n2mark]

12. I agree with you that is why I am hoping that

the cardinals will select another John XXIII. If he was Pope today, there would be such a difference in the church. He just respected everyone in the church, I guess I follow his beliefs.

[n2mark]

20. Thanks Skinner

I thought you were saying that John XXIII took us back to the dark ages. I feel progress left after Pope John. I feel that if Pope John was alive today, priests would marry, birth control would be accepted and respect for each other would be the prime goal of the church. He was just so accepting of everyone.

[n2mark]

5. How do you see it as the return to the Dark Ages

he is hitting almost every social issue that is affecting us today.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

8. Hitting them so as to make them go away, right?

Check out his stands on birth control, AIDS, homosexuality, women.

I'm vastly amused at how this now-deceased Pope is being lauded as a great man, when, in fact, I'm not at all convinced that he did much of anything except be a great PR front man and a figurehead.

[n2mark]

16. Which deceased Pope are you referring?

John or Paul?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

18. Sorry

I'm talking about JP II.

[dogman]

10. It is the age old battle between the Franciscan and the Jesuits.

The liberal v. conservative. I felt John XXIII was more a man of the people and that John Paul II is more concerned with maintaining the traditional church.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

7. I agree absolutely

This Pope set out to deconstruct so much of what John XXIII began to put forth in Vatican II.

A real pity.

[roguevalley]

2. I bawled like a baby when John XXIII died and I'm not Catholic.

In fact, my whole family did. He was a great man, that pope. A truly great and loving man.

[n2mark]

4. Did you read my link?

It is like he is talking to us today. At least this is my summary, he is connecting with the social programs, he is accepting the woman's role in society, he is aware of the need for social programs He is saying everything against what the shrub is working to destroy.

To me, he was the greatest. He does connect with our latest Pope, but our latest Pope forgot the social issues. John XXIII didn't.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

11. I loved him

When he died, and the repressives took over, I left the Church and will never return.

By the way, there's a book - "The Jesuits," by Malachy Martin - that gives a remarkable account of how the Catholic Church has become what it is today. He's quite unforgiving and clear-eyed, and it should be required reading for all devout Catholics who are willing to question their trust in mortal men consumed by their obsession with personal power as opposed to their faith in God.

[n2mark]

15. I've not read the book

I'll try to buy it. I worked for Jesuits, attended retreats by Jesuits, and I love the Jesuits. I also took some courses offered by them, the best classes ever.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

17. I went to a Jesuit law school

They changed me.

They changed my life and made it so much better. Daniel Berrigan is still my favorite client.

Malachy Martin, by the way, is also a Jesuit.

There's another, called "In The Vatican," by Thomas Reese, S.J., a wonderful account of the secret life there, and is especially relevant right now in its extensive coverage of what happens when a Pope dies.

Check your library for both books. You won't regret it.

[Sal Minella]

14. Same here. I had the feeling he was going to allow birth control

pills as acceptable family planning, but he didn't live quite long enough. So we have many more thousands of babies born into starvation and misery and early death, and mothers suffering because they cannot take care of their children adequately.

[Eloriel]

9. Nevermid

Read it wrong, so response was wrong.

[n2mark]

13. What Pope John XXIII

said years ago remains to connect today. We need another John XXIII.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

19. Not in our lifetimes, I fear

The man they select - as if he's not already in place - will continue the current conservative and exclusionary policies of the Catholic Church.

But he will be a great public relations guy.

It is a tragedy, as far as I'm concerned.

[n2mark]

21. If you are correct

this is a tragedy. I hope those electing will be enlightened. All I know is the Cardinals have a loaded plate this time around. Their selection is not going to be easy as I bellieve their selection of the existence of the Catholics in the USA is essential in this selection.

It is no longer public relations, but the existence of the church here. We have too many scandals and I pray that those selecting/electing looks at this. We don't have the priests to say the Masses in our parish, the one priest travels miles to our church to say Mass, and my guess he is in his 80's or 90's. We have no young priests in my area. That is a problem. Great, do all the PR you want, but if there are no priests the PR is futile.